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mescalito
Nachrichten: 86
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September 2010
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Tiger rules question
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Sat, 12 February 2011 23:21
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Hi guys, here is the question:
Do we re-roll flag when there is nowhere for Tiger to retreat or does it just kill it?
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sam1812
Nachrichten: 1927
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August 2006
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Re:Tiger rules question
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Sun, 13 February 2011 00:07
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You reroll it, just like anything else that would normally remove a figure from an ordinary tank.
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Morgiliath
Nachrichten: 165
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January 2011
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Re:Tiger rules question
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Sun, 13 February 2011 01:14
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I disagree with sam1812. I think that it kills the Tiger straight away. Anyway, that's the variant we play.
Our logic is as follows:
- it is not a direct hit, so it is not subject to re-rolls
- nowhere in Tiger rules it says about re-rolling a flag
- elimination of Tiger unit is not subject to hit, but to the impossibility of withdrawal
Besiders, if an unfortunate Tiger commander drives his tank in a Tiger trap (as we call it), he has only himself to blame  or the Allied masterminds who engineered the trap.
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ChizelMonkee
Nachrichten: 137
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November 2010
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Re:Tiger rules question
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Sun, 13 February 2011 01:23
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I was thinking the same as Morgiliath. The cards reads "Enemy re-rolls all battle dice that score a hit."
A retreat is not a hit, it is a retreat.
That is my understanding anyway.
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Ernest_Harmon
Nachrichten: 16
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December 2010
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sam1812
Nachrichten: 1927
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August 2006
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Re:Tiger rules question
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Sun, 13 February 2011 03:53
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Yes, as the card says, "Enemy re-rolls all battle dice that score a hit." A flag when there is no place to retreat is one kind of "hit." It gets rerolled like any other hit.
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rasmussen81
Nachrichten: 6111
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July 2007
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Re:Tiger rules question
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Sun, 13 February 2011 04:01
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| Ernest_Harmon wrote on Sun, 13 February 2011 04:40 |
The original rule book says resolve hits, then resolve retreats. So in the case of a Tiger that can't retreat, it's destroyed, because of this.
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No, the Flag is a hit if the Tiger can't retreat and it must be re-rolled just like any other hit. 
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sam1812
Nachrichten: 1927
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August 2006
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Re:Tiger rules question
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Sun, 13 February 2011 05:27
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Ras, it would be good to add this to the Official FAQ, since it's not explicitly stated there at present. I'll post a note on the FAQ thread.
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stevens
Nachrichten: 2741
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February 2007
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Morgiliath
Nachrichten: 165
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January 2011
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AIwan
Nachrichten: 12
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May 2008
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Re:Tiger rules question
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Sun, 13 February 2011 14:53
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I agree with Morgiliath.
In the offcial instruction (page 10) you have
"If a unit cannot retreat; [...], one figure must be removed from the unit for each retreat move that cannot be completed.
The wording is the same as for the frozen river.
Not hit but figure removed!
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Morgiliath
Nachrichten: 165
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January 2011
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Re:Tiger rules question
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Sun, 13 February 2011 14:55
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| rasmussen81 wrote on Sun, 13 February 2011 04:01 |
| Ernest_Harmon wrote on Sun, 13 February 2011 04:40 |
The original rule book says resolve hits, then resolve retreats. So in the case of a Tiger that can't retreat, it's destroyed, because of this.
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No, the Flag is a hit if the Tiger can't retreat and it must be re-rolled just like any other hit.
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Apparently, the Flag is NOT a hit...
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rasmussen81
Nachrichten: 6111
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July 2007
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Re:Tiger rules question
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Sun, 13 February 2011 15:05
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You're welcome to play however you want, but we talked through this when the expansion first came out. I've found one thread about it and I'll keep looking for others...if I remember right we got confirmation that Flags are hits and are re-rolled like any other hit.
http://www.daysofwonder.com/en/msg/?goto=193060#msg_193060
When I was writing the section on Tigers crossing Frozen Rivers, Richard Borg was very clear that the Frozen River is more dangerous for Tigers than anything else. Even if we don't see a difference in the wording, Richard saw a difference when he answered the question for the FAQ.
But like I said, if you want to play that Flags that can't be completed are hits and if that makes more sense to you, play it that way!! As long as you're having fun and both people agree, it doesn't matter.
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rasmussen81
Nachrichten: 6111
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July 2007
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tank commander
Nachrichten: 1796
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October 2004
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Re:Tiger rules question
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Sun, 13 February 2011 15:33
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| Morgiliath wrote on Sun, 13 February 2011 08:35 |
See FAQ about Frozen Rivers:
Q. If a Tiger Tank tries to cross a frozen river but rolls a Star, is the Tiger destroyed or do we re-roll each Star?
A. The rules for frozen rivers say that for each Star rolled, 1 figure is lost. A Tiger Tank unit only has one figure, no re-roll is
required to eliminate the single figure Tiger Tank unit. Crossing a Frozen River with a Tiger Tank unit is indeed a risky move.
I still think no re-roll for the flag.
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Is this not an apples to oranges comparsion here?
Trying to justify an auto hit on a flag result from enemy fire on a Tiger that cannot retreat just because said Tiger could be eliminated from trying to cross a frozen river without a reroll does not seem to be right to me.
I look it as this way. A flag result on a unit which cannot retreat will cause a figure loss for each flag rolled. This to me represents that unit losing part or all of it's strength due to surrender. A Tiger unit would be less likely to do so - therefore flags should be rerolled.
Tigers in a no retreat situation are more likely to be hit (as now a flag is in the mix) and so are more likely to be destroyed. Having them auto eliminated on flags in such a situation really would assign them a very secondary roll in a scenario and assigns very little risk to Allied forces charging out to cut off Tigers and surround them. Sort of goes against the grain of what was thought of them by those who faced them in WW II.
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Morgiliath
Nachrichten: 165
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January 2011
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Re:Tiger rules question
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Sun, 13 February 2011 15:35
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Thank you Ras for going into all that trouble with finding links. I am well aware that I can make any house rules I want, I just want to know, "what's the way it's meant to be played"
Still, if it's so, it is a contradiction of the rules. You'd better clarify that in the next FAQ on Jeeps, Tigers and Frozen Rivers.
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ChizelMonkee
Nachrichten: 137
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November 2010
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Re:Tiger rules question
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Sun, 13 February 2011 22:02
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Yeah, I'm with Morg on what clarification we were looking for. I want to correctly understand the official position before I start making house rules. Not unintentionally make a house rule.
So I'm going to use the sheet by rongamer as the official rules.
Thanks to everyone for the clarification.
Love this friendly community!
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50th
Nachrichten: 1280
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October 2006
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Re:Tiger rules question
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Mon, 14 February 2011 06:51
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Hi, I am Rongammer on BGG! I remember Richard Borg once said that a retreat was re-rolled as a hit, but for now I cannot locate that quote. Perhaps Mr Borg would like to comment on this again and satisfy the question for once and for all. My Tiger sheet is also on my user page along with my house Tiger rule sheet. Check out the other player aids both Rasmussen and I have on our user pages. I hope you find them useful!
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tank commander
Nachrichten: 1796
Registriert:
October 2004
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mescalito
Nachrichten: 86
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September 2010
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Re:Tiger rules question
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Mon, 14 February 2011 12:21
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It looks like there is a confusion around two phrases:
1. Hit.
2. Removing a figure.
Some people seem to think that a flag removing a figure (when there is no way to resolve retreat) is different from taking hit. I think that everything that removes a figure is a hit. As there is no other term for it.
So if we assume that everything resulting in removing a figure out of unit is a hit then there is no confusion here. And there is no contradiction as well.
Frozen river is the exception. And it is pretty much clear why - Tigers can swim well in one direction only and it is downwards. 
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sam1812
Nachrichten: 1927
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August 2006
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Re:Tiger rules question
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Mon, 14 February 2011 14:11
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Indeed. Perhaps that helps explain why cats are afraid of the water.
Thank you, Tank Commander, for finding that message. Somehow, I missed it when I searched the Forums.
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Antoine
Nachrichten: 1542
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April 2007
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Re:Tiger rules question
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Mon, 14 February 2011 14:20
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Flags do not kill Tigers.
If you roll a flag against a Tiger that has nowhere to retreat, then consider it a hit and re-roll it. A grenade would kill the Tiger, any other result must be ignored.
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rasmussen81
Nachrichten: 6111
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July 2007
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Re:Tiger rules question
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Mon, 14 February 2011 14:40
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| Antoine wrote on Mon, 14 February 2011 17:20 |
Flags do not kill Tigers.
If you roll a flag against a Tiger that has nowhere to retreat, then consider it a hit and re-roll it. A grenade would kill the Tiger, any other result must be ignored.
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There we go! If anyone was still in doubt and wanted an official answer, we now have one. Thanks, Antoine!
I will make sure to include this question and answer in the next FAQ update.
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