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mescalito
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Tiger rules question Sat, 12 February 2011 23:21
Hi guys, here is the question:

Do we re-roll flag when there is nowhere for Tiger to retreat or does it just kill it?
      
sam1812
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Re:Tiger rules question Sun, 13 February 2011 00:07
You reroll it, just like anything else that would normally remove a figure from an ordinary tank.
      
Morgiliath
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Re:Tiger rules question Sun, 13 February 2011 01:14
I disagree with sam1812. I think that it kills the Tiger straight away. Anyway, that's the variant we play.

Our logic is as follows:

- it is not a direct hit, so it is not subject to re-rolls
- nowhere in Tiger rules it says about re-rolling a flag
- elimination of Tiger unit is not subject to hit, but to the impossibility of withdrawal
Besiders, if an unfortunate Tiger commander drives his tank in a Tiger trap (as we call it), he has only himself to blame Smile or the Allied masterminds who engineered the trap.

      
ChizelMonkee
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Re:Tiger rules question Sun, 13 February 2011 01:23
I was thinking the same as Morgiliath. The cards reads "Enemy re-rolls all battle dice that score a hit."

A retreat is not a hit, it is a retreat.

That is my understanding anyway.
      
Ernest_Harmon
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Re:Tiger rules question Sun, 13 February 2011 01:40
The original rule book says resolve hits, then resolve retreats. So in the case of a Tiger that can't retreat, it's destroyed, because of this.

[Aktualisiert am: Sun, 13 February 2011 01:43]

      
sam1812
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Re:Tiger rules question Sun, 13 February 2011 03:53
Yes, as the card says, "Enemy re-rolls all battle dice that score a hit." A flag when there is no place to retreat is one kind of "hit." It gets rerolled like any other hit.

      
rasmussen81
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Re:Tiger rules question Sun, 13 February 2011 04:01
Ernest_Harmon wrote on Sun, 13 February 2011 04:40

The original rule book says resolve hits, then resolve retreats. So in the case of a Tiger that can't retreat, it's destroyed, because of this.


No, the Flag is a hit if the Tiger can't retreat and it must be re-rolled just like any other hit. Cool
      
sam1812
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Re:Tiger rules question Sun, 13 February 2011 05:27
Ras, it would be good to add this to the Official FAQ, since it's not explicitly stated there at present. I'll post a note on the FAQ thread.
      
stevens
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Re:Tiger rules question Sun, 13 February 2011 13:01
Quote:

Tiger Tank Targeting
All battle dice that scores a hit on a Tiger tank are re-rolled. Also retreats rolled against a Tiger that cannot retreat are rerolled.
If at least one re-roll a grenade, that unit is destroyed. All other roll results are ignored.


http://files.boardgamegeek.com/file/download/58ind3wjr3/mm_t iger_tanks_en.pdf?

This was put together by
rongammer
I believe in consult with Richard Borg and explains the rule clearly.

Sam is correct.

Flags dont kill tigers - only GRENADES kill tigers. Flags that can't be taken do cause hits however, which must be rerolled.

You will find this same principle applies if you are playing with the LONG RANGE PATROL CARS which also consist of a single figure unit and are only killed on a GRENADE reroll.

http://cdn1.daysofwonder.com/memoir44/en/img/mm_op4_jeep_en. pdf

[Aktualisiert am: Sun, 13 February 2011 13:10]

      
Morgiliath
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Re:Tiger rules question Sun, 13 February 2011 14:35
Seems fine, but if we adopt this point of view, then there is contradiction in rules. See FAQ about Frozen Rivers:

Q. If a Tiger Tank tries to cross a frozen river but rolls a Star, is the Tiger destroyed or do we re-roll each Star?
A. The rules for frozen rivers say that for each Star rolled, 1 figure is lost. A Tiger Tank unit only has one figure, no re-roll is
required to eliminate the single figure Tiger Tank unit.
Crossing a Frozen River with a Tiger Tank unit is indeed a risky move.




I still think no re-roll for the flag.

[Aktualisiert am: Sun, 13 February 2011 14:35]

      
AIwan
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Re:Tiger rules question Sun, 13 February 2011 14:53
I agree with Morgiliath.

In the offcial instruction (page 10) you have

"If a unit cannot retreat; [...], one figure must be removed from the unit for each retreat move that cannot be completed.

The wording is the same as for the frozen river.

Not hit but figure removed!
      
Morgiliath
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Re:Tiger rules question Sun, 13 February 2011 14:55
rasmussen81 wrote on Sun, 13 February 2011 04:01

Ernest_Harmon wrote on Sun, 13 February 2011 04:40

The original rule book says resolve hits, then resolve retreats. So in the case of a Tiger that can't retreat, it's destroyed, because of this.


No, the Flag is a hit if the Tiger can't retreat and it must be re-rolled just like any other hit. Cool



Apparently, the Flag is NOT a hit...
      
rasmussen81
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Re:Tiger rules question Sun, 13 February 2011 15:05
You're welcome to play however you want, but we talked through this when the expansion first came out. I've found one thread about it and I'll keep looking for others...if I remember right we got confirmation that Flags are hits and are re-rolled like any other hit. Cool

http://www.daysofwonder.com/en/msg/?goto=193060#msg_193060

When I was writing the section on Tigers crossing Frozen Rivers, Richard Borg was very clear that the Frozen River is more dangerous for Tigers than anything else. Even if we don't see a difference in the wording, Richard saw a difference when he answered the question for the FAQ.

But like I said, if you want to play that Flags that can't be completed are hits and if that makes more sense to you, play it that way!! As long as you're having fun and both people agree, it doesn't matter. Smile
      
rasmussen81
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Re:Tiger rules question Sun, 13 February 2011 15:13
Here are some other links for you to look over:

http://www.daysofwonder.com/en/msg/?goto=167016#msg_167016

http://www.daysofwonder.com/en/msg/?goto=165288#msg_165288

The thing I can't find is when we got the official answer to this question. It might be that I got an e-mail directly from Richard Borg on this for the FAQ (though I'm not sure how this question didn't make it into version 1.3).

Anyone else find where we got the official answer? Rolling Eyes
      
tank commander
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Re:Tiger rules question Sun, 13 February 2011 15:33
Morgiliath wrote on Sun, 13 February 2011 08:35

See FAQ about Frozen Rivers:

Q. If a Tiger Tank tries to cross a frozen river but rolls a Star, is the Tiger destroyed or do we re-roll each Star?
A. The rules for frozen rivers say that for each Star rolled, 1 figure is lost. A Tiger Tank unit only has one figure, no re-roll is
required to eliminate the single figure Tiger Tank unit.
Crossing a Frozen River with a Tiger Tank unit is indeed a risky move.

I still think no re-roll for the flag.


Is this not an apples to oranges comparsion here?

Trying to justify an auto hit on a flag result from enemy fire on a Tiger that cannot retreat just because said Tiger could be eliminated from trying to cross a frozen river without a reroll does not seem to be right to me.

I look it as this way. A flag result on a unit which cannot retreat will cause a figure loss for each flag rolled. This to me represents that unit losing part or all of it's strength due to surrender. A Tiger unit would be less likely to do so - therefore flags should be rerolled.

Tigers in a no retreat situation are more likely to be hit (as now a flag is in the mix) and so are more likely to be destroyed. Having them auto eliminated on flags in such a situation really would assign them a very secondary roll in a scenario and assigns very little risk to Allied forces charging out to cut off Tigers and surround them. Sort of goes against the grain of what was thought of them by those who faced them in WW II.




      
Morgiliath
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Re:Tiger rules question Sun, 13 February 2011 15:35
Thank you Ras for going into all that trouble with finding links. I am well aware that I can make any house rules I want, I just want to know, "what's the way it's meant to be played" Smile

Still, if it's so, it is a contradiction of the rules. You'd better clarify that in the next FAQ on Jeeps, Tigers and Frozen Rivers.

      
ChizelMonkee
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Re:Tiger rules question Sun, 13 February 2011 22:02
Yeah, I'm with Morg on what clarification we were looking for. I want to correctly understand the official position before I start making house rules. Not unintentionally make a house rule.

So I'm going to use the sheet by rongamer as the official rules.

Thanks to everyone for the clarification.

Love this friendly community!
      
50th
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Re:Tiger rules question Mon, 14 February 2011 06:51
Hi, I am Rongammer on BGG! I remember Richard Borg once said that a retreat was re-rolled as a hit, but for now I cannot locate that quote. Perhaps Mr Borg would like to comment on this again and satisfy the question for once and for all. My Tiger sheet is also on my user page along with my house Tiger rule sheet. Check out the other player aids both Rasmussen and I have on our user pages. I hope you find them useful!

      
tank commander
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Re:Tiger rules question Mon, 14 February 2011 12:13
Well, I think I found it:

Posted by sam1812 --- (I underlined the last sentence)

Re:Saint-Aignan de Cramesnil Mon, 25 May 2009 12:22

I posed this question to Richard Borg last week, and he responded:
Quote:

(RB) Yes you must re-roll to confirm.
As the Tigers Summary card state: Enemy re-rolls all battle dice that score a hit.

(RB) If a Tiger cannot ignore a flag and is forced to retreat, like any other unit that cannot retreat, one hit is score for each retreat hex it cannot complete. Again hits scored in this manner must be re-rolled to confirm.

[Updated on: Mon, 25 May 2009 12:27]


The link to that thread is here:

http://www.daysofwonder.com/en/msg/?goto=166111#msg_166111

[Aktualisiert am: Mon, 14 February 2011 12:16]

      
mescalito
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Re:Tiger rules question Mon, 14 February 2011 12:21
It looks like there is a confusion around two phrases:

1. Hit.
2. Removing a figure.

Some people seem to think that a flag removing a figure (when there is no way to resolve retreat) is different from taking hit. I think that everything that removes a figure is a hit. As there is no other term for it.

So if we assume that everything resulting in removing a figure out of unit is a hit then there is no confusion here. And there is no contradiction as well.

Frozen river is the exception. And it is pretty much clear why - Tigers can swim well in one direction only and it is downwards. Laughing
      
sam1812
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Re:Tiger rules question Mon, 14 February 2011 14:11
Indeed. Perhaps that helps explain why cats are afraid of the water.

Thank you, Tank Commander, for finding that message. Somehow, I missed it when I searched the Forums.
      
Antoine
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Re:Tiger rules question Mon, 14 February 2011 14:20
Flags do not kill Tigers.
If you roll a flag against a Tiger that has nowhere to retreat, then consider it a hit and re-roll it. A grenade would kill the Tiger, any other result must be ignored.
      
rasmussen81
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Re:Tiger rules question Mon, 14 February 2011 14:40
Antoine wrote on Mon, 14 February 2011 17:20

Flags do not kill Tigers.
If you roll a flag against a Tiger that has nowhere to retreat, then consider it a hit and re-roll it. A grenade would kill the Tiger, any other result must be ignored.


There we go! If anyone was still in doubt and wanted an official answer, we now have one. Smile Thanks, Antoine! Cool

I will make sure to include this question and answer in the next FAQ update.
      
    
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