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Sysyphus - Pommard
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Blocking/Ethics discussion about blocking in multis (transferred from multi-tourney thread) Tue, 01 March 2011 19:05
from multi tourney thread, to make it clearer)
Started with

GRATS KNOCK



http://nsa25.casimages.com/img/2011/02/24/11022401294534950.png




then

Anastasia's point of view:

lol sysy!! you decided to kill them all? what are you? the punisher?? it was the final game, so everybody tried the best for himself,except you! you were trying the best for knock! he was good eitherway!
so, grats to knock!
[/quote]






Sysy's reaction to Ana :

My main point = Knock wasn't considered as a dangerous threat from the beginning by Kostas and he reacted too late.

And I even said in the lobby after game 2, Knock should be the target... (check the standings after game 2 and game 4, nothing happened).

(...)


In the 2nd 5er, kostas started to block... Yeah, i could have helped, but i had 3 tix to make... The block would have give me one more point in the standings when i was already 4th in the standings. Wasn't up to me to do that....


In the last game, Kostas started to block Knock. I was already out for the win, when EPO still had a chance.
EPO joined the block.
Then Knock found an opportunity to block Kostas.
Kostas decided HIMSELF to skip that track (yeah, Knock was pink, Kostas red, I was yellow). Then, that let me the option to debate "to block or not to block?".
If i blocked, it's only because i had the colours to kill epo and kostas. Knock already dead and Elka really struggling, that was, in my opinion, a smart and valuable block that would give me a HUGE profit .


DEBATE

Statement from Sysy about blocking in a tourney

What's a smart block to me ? A block which is not a block for the pleasure of blocking, to show others "hey guys, I blocked a top multi player, I'm therefore a top multi player too...!! even if I didn't gain any advantadge by doing so "
(i.e. Pammes in qualifying round, who was destroyed and had no chance to claim another spot but the last one in the game and in the group, that decided to focus on me because i was winning the game... He didn't gain anything by doing it...but i guess he was quite self satisfied.
i.e. Mallkav that decided to block the longest of psteinx because he was thinking it was fun to block a top multi player. He didn't gain anything by doing it, and decided who had to win the game. Oh yeah, then psteinx failed to reach number 1 overall with that move".)





Truckerteller's fisr reaction



Just wanted to support Sysyphus' statement that it's sh*t pathetic to block in multi's without gaining any advantage for oneself. Unfortunately those who do this tend not to be reached with reason and feel all smuck for blocking a top multi or in my case a top Europe player.

Maybe it's a good idea for all you multi psycho's to write a code of ethics before you start such a tourney. What kind of blocking do you think is ok ? Is it ok to talk in the lobby or during the game about joint blocking ? Because someone is ahead in the game or the overall standings ?


Dea's interest
This discussion is interesting:
Truckerteller schrieb am Fri, 25 February 2011 10:43

... it's sh*t pathetic to block in multi's without gaining any advantage for oneself.

I guess everyone agrees so far.

Problem being ... are you supposed/obliged to know whether the block can be to your advantage or not?
Knowing for sure that you cannot gain and therefore shouldn't meddle around requires that you counted your and your opp's probable and possible scores and of course that you know all the ticks (in EU I think most people don't) to be able to count correctly.

As for me, I would probably count correctly in a tournament final, but in casual multi games I normally don't.
As a consequence it may well happen that I play a block that turns out to have no effect on my own placement in the end.
I wouldn't want to be "morally obliged" to avoid that ... simply too strenuous.
And I think we cannot expect it from all players, because some couldn't count everything perfectly even if they wanted to (e.g. I know a lot of very good EU players who would not be able to name all the small tickets).

Anyhow, here's a recent example where I'd like to know what everyone considers the correct behaviour:
4er EU with psteinx, Sysy, BlackIsBack and me.
Towards end of the game BiB and I share longest.
Suppose BiB knows / has counted everything, he can tell that he will win and currently I would be 2nd.
psteinx could end the game at his turn but doesn't, thereby giving BiB the chance to pick up 2 open orange which would give him longest alone - which would make me end up 4th instead of 2nd.
Should he value psteinx' good move or simply ignore it and collect his win quickly?[/quote]


Kostas' point of view of "moral behaviour" in a tourney
the basic point of this tournament is if it is moral for a player who can't take the first place (i talk only about the last game of the finals) to block the players who they have the chance to win. in our case, sysy influenced the final result. if i were him, i wouldn't do that for moral reasons even if i want to take 2nd place. i m not sure if the way i think is correct and it would be good for all to know the opinion from all multi players so we can have common moral rules for next league.




Sysy's ethics
About a code of ethics in a multi tourney :

I, personnally, always play for the win, in a tourney or in a regular, even if it requires major risks.

In that kind of tourney, in a final mode, I expect everybody to play for the win. There's no point to play for 3rd or 4th, since only the winner is rewarded. In Gof, there's an unspoken agreement among top players to play for the win. As it doesn't exist yet, i thought it was quite needed to remind all other players about that despite the clear inefficiency.
If after 2 games/4 games, the race for the win is almost over because one had better tix or colours at some point, and nothing is done to fight against the computer's deal, I'd have less pleasure to play that kind of tourney.

I heard a top player in semi-finals = "let's play all the games, we have time to count later"... I think that players have to be aware of the standings and then plan what is needed to do to go for the win.
Another top player : "I don't block, because i don't like it even if it'd have helped me badly".

Knockando and I were the only ones checking the standings between the games on tikipedia. And it requires quick thinking and multitasking considering the fast chain of games, when it should stated clearly in the lobby.


All that lead to a real frustration, cause i expect top players, in a tourney at least, to take into account all the factors in order to win.


Which can be all those factors that may influence my way of playing ?

* the knowledge of the players who are part of the games
(ex : psteinx - that i love to play with, cause he has all those parameters in mind -. He likes taking 6ers with small tix and end fast, or in a 5er, he's quite likely to follow me in a block. Ommie -that should play more often cause she's hiding her skills, is quite likely playing the same way as psteinx cause she learnt to play by watching him. Kostas, when trying to find, would die like me to take 4 blue in CHicago, cause he learnt by watching my games..And those 2 players are not just pale imitations but players that built their own strong way of playing)

*the order of play : (psteinx played his van mon in a very different way yesterday cause i was just behind him, and very likely to start a block)

*knowledge of the tix. I wouldn't figure an efficient game without knowing all the tix.

*counting the cards in the deck (especially in Europe, with the free tunnel).

*thinking of the cards sent back in the deck and checking the size of the deck.


I am quite in a hurry, so my list is not exhaustive, but those are the main features I could think of.

About the standard level of top multis lately

Since i've been part of the community, the standard level of a good multi player was set 1500+.
Now, I'd strongly recommend to open 1550 or even 1600+.
Might be seen as arrogance, but to me there's a difference between playing a multi with good multi-players, and top multi-players.
Yesterday, blubes opened 16+, and we had a bunch of high-quality games and everybody around the table agreed.

Yes sometimes a top multi-player can be lower than 16+. Then it's up to the knowledge that one has of the player, to let him play or not.
Too many players have been granting themselves the right to enter games when they don't have the level required. (ex: 1510 when asked 1550).

About yesterday's game

I have my opinion on it but it's probably better to keep it silent at the moment Wink.







Truck's view of blocking in some specific situations
(about dea's answer)



I guess multi-ethics are an extremely subjective topic, especially when you add the extra dimension of a tournament and its standings. Everyone can have his/her own ideas when situations and actions become dodgy and what may simply be considered good gameplay.

Some questions/situations and my personal take on them.

1. Blocking open big routes for the sake of track points and added benefit of being in other peoples way.
No issues with that whatsoever

2. Blocking smaller routes (thereby not maximizing your own trackpoints) for the sake of gaining in the standings (i.e. moving from 3rd to 2nd in your perceived end-result.
No issues with that whatsoever

3. Blocking to influence the outcome of the game, without influencing your own points or rank. e.g. I can chose where to put my last four, though I will always be 3rd in the game.
In a tournament game I would fully expect to see this happen to one's biggest competitor. In dea's example it's completely in the middle, what to do or what not to do. If you're first anyway and you can decide the fate of the nrs 2,3 and 4, well, you can do whatever you want I think. If you want to reward someone for making a good last move, grasping his only chance, that's fine by me. In dea's example I would simply finish the game a.s.a.p., share longest and prevent anybody from an extra chance of fiending. But I didn't see the game, so I'm not sure about the nuances.

4. Blocking the perceived best opponent early in the game to increase your own perceived chances of winning.
Risky strategy, but if I'm playing a multi with Sysy and two 1400 players, I would certainly keep a stronger eye on what Sysyphus is doing and alter my strategy a bit to be in his way most early on. It's a risky strategy, but valid i.m.o.

5. Blocking to be a schmuck a$$, when you're already behind and you want to show your fellow multi players how you can block a good multi or Europe player.
As mentioned earlier. Pathetic behaviour.

6. Blocking someone, thereby hurting yourself a bit, but if one of the next two players joins you, the end-result is favourable.
Not my cup of tea, but it comes with the game I guess. If you play dozens of games with the same people like this (I play mostly Euro multi's, where this is much less prevalent) and everyone knows what to expect, than it's more than fine.

7. Building a station with no purpose, only to give the next player the possibility to double station and thereby both moving ahead of the affected player.
More of a no-go to me than (6), as it actually costs you points to do this.

8. Talking about jointly blocking someone.
This is a no go for me.

9. Blocking someone from the start because he/she is ahead in the tournament standings.
Not done in my book. If all 5 players behave like that, you can just eliminate the first n-1 games and only play the last game, because everybody is constantly pulling everybody back to the average.

10. Blocking one player from the start with the goal of reaching 3rd in stead of 4th position. I.e. I have crappy tix, and I single out the player most likely to have somewhat crappy tix as well.
Not done in my book.

In reality, some situations may be a lot more quirky. Someone may believe that his/her block has increased his/her chances, whereas I may simply find it stupid and annoying. And we do not see all cards, all tix and know all the odds.

In the end, when you play a multi (or certainly a multi tournament), you shouldn't be surprised that things like (6) (7) and (9) happen.



Sysy's next answer

DD-dea1 wrote on Sun, 27 February 2011 15:25

[b][color=crimson]



Anyhow, here's a recent example where I'd like to know what everyone considers the correct behaviour:
4er EU with psteinx, Sysy, BlackIsBack and me.
Towards end of the game BiB and I share longest.
Suppose BiB knows / has counted everything, he can tell that he will win and currently I would be 2nd.
psteinx could end the game at his turn but doesn't, thereby giving BiB the chance to pick up 2 open orange which would give him longest alone - which would make me end up 4th instead of 2nd.
Should he value psteinx' good move or simply ignore it and collect his win quickly?



See Trucks' point .3. I'd personally end no matter what and I'd have done the same move as psteinx.
Disturbing mentally a player by your moves, the way you play is perfectly fine by me.
I'd have blamed Bib for not having ended, but congratulated phil for his move.


Truckerteller écrit le Mon, 28 February 2011 11:27




1., 2., 3., 4., 5.




100% agreed.

Quote:


6. Blocking someone, thereby hurting yourself a bit, but if one of the next two players joins you, the end-result is favourable.



Would expect that from any player who consider himself as a top player if the move is clearly valuable.

Quote:



7. Building a station with no purpose, only to give the next player the possibility to double station and thereby both moving ahead of the affected player.



I'd do it, if the player in the lead ends very fast, and kills all the other players (3er or 4er most likely).

Quote:


8. Talking about jointly blocking someone.


No, but i expect opponents to block when he's in the need.

Quote:


9. Blocking someone from the start because he/she is ahead in the tournament standings.



Not from the start. But once again, I'd expect opponents to block, end fast or prevent the N°1 in standings from completing his tix, or drawing one more time.

Quote:


10. Blocking one player from the start with the goal of reaching 3rd in stead of 4th position. I.e. I have crappy tix, and I single out the player most likely to have somewhat crappy tix as well.



Crappy tix or obvious ones like Miami or Van Mon in a 5er.

If i'm 1750 and i'm playing with 1550, i have Mon Atl, CHi No, i have no pb doing it. I'm 1550, i'd be more offensive and go for a draw.

[Aktualisiert am: Tue, 01 March 2011 19:22]

      
Robin Hood
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Re:Blocking/Ethics discussion about blocking in multis (transferred from multi-tourney thread) Thu, 03 March 2011 21:33
TLDR mate Very Happy
      
ATN Drake
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Re:Blocking/Ethics discussion about blocking in multis (transferred from multi-tourney thread) Mon, 07 March 2011 19:09
Been blocked WAY too many times when I am struggling just to place like 3rd yet its ok to let people connect all the way from LA-NY through MIA or SEA or what not.

I'm done playing people below 1600. It was annoying for a week or 2 and now it just makes me think the 1500 multi crowd is a bunch of stupid idiots and no wonder they never get up to 1600.

If you are a 1500 person reading this - you need to look at more than just who is gonna get longest or who "looks" like the are winning - you need to actually look at what possible tickets the person could have on their route - AND even if there are good tickets you need to see what other people went for and thus precludes that person from having that good ticket. THEN you need to look at people's track points. If someone has 80 track points and the other person has 40, having 2 good tickets isn't gonna matter.

People think I am against blocking - NO - I am against stupid blocking.
      
CIA GenuineFauxFarm
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Re:Blocking/Ethics discussion about blocking in multis (transferred from multi-tourney thread) Mon, 07 March 2011 20:28
I find strategy discussions to be interesting - so enjoy reading them. Sometimes I try to participate in them, but realize I don't play that well, so I try to stay out of it.

However, there is one more factor that isn't discussed - and it is one I am very familiar with. The current motivations of each player can play a role in the approach to a given game.

There are many times I play when all I want is a chance to play in a game, but I'm not in the mood to play 'all out' to win. At those times, I usually don't expend my mental energy on counting cards and analyzing all opponents. But, at the same time, I'm not going to be blocking either - since I feel I need to have a good reason to so.

Then, there are times I am looking forward to a good challenge and I work harder to pay attention for longest, probable tickets and possible blocks. I suspect some of the observant people I play wonder at my amazing lack of consistency. Rolling Eyes

But, in reference to Drake's valid point.
If I'm playing with the first motivation level (just to enjoy a game - even though I may be a bit tired and distracted) I stay away from blocking anyone. If I can be lucky enough and astute enough (to not screw up) so I can win without as much analysis - good for me.

But, if I'm playing with the second - you'd better believe I'm laying a block that my thinking says will put me closer to a win... I don't care what the ranking of the player is that I'm looking to block.

And I think that is exactly the point Drake is trying to make. You know who your opponent is only so it gives you insight as to his or her play. You don't look at their relative rankings in an effort to see who you should attack based on the rankings alone.

Ah, enough. You all didn't want to read this anyway. Smile

Rob
GFF

      
psteinx
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Re:Blocking/Ethics discussion about blocking in multis (transferred from multi-tourney thread) Wed, 12 October 2011 23:48
Some notes on an old thread:

Re: the game where malllkav blocked me. IIRC, it was a block about longest, not blocking me out of a city I needed (i.e. preventing a loop.) I'm pretty sure it was clear that the block neither helped nor hurt malllkav, and malllkav should/would have known that. However, I'm reluctant to assess someone else's motivations besides that. I sometimes block at the end of a game without too much thought, so who knows? I do think I was upset about it at the time though. I don't remember if that block prevented me from reaching a certain #1 overall, or if it just pushed me down some (i.e. instead of being a point or two out of #1, I was further out).


====

My own thoughts on multi-blocking:

I think it is fine and a good strategy in general. There are a couple special cases for consideration. One, I think the general vibe against double blocks and such coordinated via chat (i.e. "Let's all block XYZ") is a good one.

I will occasionally chat about a player's position, but try to do this only when things are rather obvious to all (i.e. someone has been crushed by a block or whatever) or aren't likely to be impacted by discussion. It is a social game, and I like to chat both about the game and non-game topics.

The one type of blocking I frown on is early hard core blocking that feels like the last place player in a 4 or 5 striving to get 3rd or 4th solely by focusing on one opponent. i.e. 3-6 seemingly targeted blocks in a row against a single player, at a relatively early stage in the game. It's a fine line between that and what I consider normal, acceptable blocking, and others may not make the same judgement calls as me, or may think I do what I resent. I guess my view is that early in the game, it's both good strategy and reasonable courtesy to focus on your own routes, 6s, longest, etc. That said, even early game, I will often structure my routes so as to at least interfere with others, and if I see a chance for a one play move that has a very high likelihood to knock a player out, I may take it.



[Aktualisiert am: Tue, 18 October 2011 02:26]

      
Sysyphus - Pommard
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Re:Blocking/Ethics discussion about blocking in multis (transferred from multi-tourney thread) Mon, 11 June 2012 02:49
Not sure it was worth a post in the warning thread...

Bry Guy will make sure you are 4th in a 5er after you made sure he would be 5th with a nice block in a 5er because he didnt like it... knowing he'd not gain anything but enjoy his revenge and probably hoping you would not do it in the future... At least, he makes it personal only for the rest of the game, suggesting he feels way better after it ! But he would retaliate every time you block him...
I guess he just wants a regular game... (quoting warning thread).

Dunno what you guys think about that...

Bry Guy, Who is not the only one.
I see pretty often some players killing each other only as pure retaliation...people who are even good friends online ! or kicking the blocker out of the next game due to bad mood...


psteinx wrote on Wed, 12 October 2011 15:48


I will occasionally chat about a player's position, but try to do this only when things are rather obvious to all (i.e. someone has been crushed by a block or whatever) or aren't likely to be impacted by discussion. It is a social game, and I like to chat both about the game and non-game topics.




That's for honeoye... He did la mia building the southern route, from miami. 6 red, 2 in no, 3 to LA, 2 santa fe paso, 3 phoe fe and 6 green. So, it was obvious he had chi fe. Since the 3 other players were designing a track that would go through chicago, I talked about a block party in chicago, (one sentence) that I triggered later in the game...
And honeoye died, unfortunately Very Happy, and then accused me of conspirating with Drake and "my friends" against him...
Now, with the messed-up rankings, former low 1500 players have become 1650 players and can't handle the former 1600+ way of playing and it's annoying...

But, it's good to see whining in games, it means action is back !
(happens that i whine too, i know) !

[Aktualisiert am: Mon, 11 June 2012 03:13]

      
AAA_dea1
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Re:Blocking/Ethics discussion about blocking in multis (transferred from multi-tourney thread) Mon, 11 June 2012 10:46
Sysyphus schrieb am Mon, 11 June 2012 02:49

I see pretty often some players killing each other only as pure retaliation...people who are even good friends online ! or kicking the blocker out of the next game due to bad mood...


@Retaliation: Sure, why not?
Especially in social games with people I know - if e.g. Hecki blocks me I MUST have some revenge Smile
I also see nothing wrong with it if somebody does it as general strategy (even though I don't do it myself). If everyone knows, that blocking player x leads to immediate retaliation, they may indeed be less inclined to block player x. Which is good for player x in the long run...

@Kicking out of next game, cursing, excessive whining ...
Nogo in my eyes.
      
LMT Hecki
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Re:Blocking/Ethics discussion about blocking in multis (transferred from multi-tourney thread) Mon, 11 June 2012 23:03
dea1 schrieb am Mon, 11 June 2012 10:46


Especially in social games with people I know - if e.g. Hecki blocks me I MUST have some revenge Smile


Heyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy. I HAVE NEVER BLOCKED ANYBODY INTENTIONALLY !!!
      
AAA_dea1
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Re:Blocking/Ethics discussion about blocking in multis (transferred from multi-tourney thread) Mon, 11 June 2012 23:34
Of course not, dear Hecki.
If I created the impression that you knew, what you are doing, I'm very sorry indeed Laughing
      
Sysyphus - Pommard
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Re:Blocking/Ethics discussion about blocking in multis (transferred from multi-tourney thread) Tue, 12 June 2012 05:17
Well, the relationship you have with Hecki is different than the one I have with Bry !

On a long shot, he knows it wont change anything... You know that Hecki will never change either...If we all yield to people angry of a block, then nothing has to happen ?

Pure retaliation without gaining anything is just healing your ego for a bit.
The Law of Talion is pretty much of the past...
Like a hitter hit by a pitch, his team hitting the opponent's batter next inning... or death penalty...Eye for an eye...

Concept that lacks of loftiness of spirit and magnanimity...

[Aktualisiert am: Tue, 12 June 2012 05:45]

      
LMT Hecki
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Re:Blocking/Ethics discussion about blocking in multis (transferred from multi-tourney thread) Tue, 12 June 2012 13:12
Sysyphus schrieb am Mon, 11 June 2012 02:49


Bry Guy will make sure you are 4th in a 5er after you made sure he would be 5th with a nice block in a 5er because he didnt like it... knowing he'd not gain anything but enjoy his revenge and probably hoping you would not do it in the future... At least, he makes it personal only for the rest of the game, suggesting he feels way better after it ! But he would retaliate every time you block him...


Just a childish behavior, he wouldn't change a thing in my case. Errrrrm, wait, maybe I would not play with him anymore. Those whining and retaliation stuff has killed most of the fun in this community. I will never understand it.

[Aktualisiert am: Tue, 12 June 2012 13:13]

      
ATN The Tinman
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Re:Blocking/Ethics discussion about blocking in multis (transferred from multi-tourney thread) Thu, 26 July 2012 04:22
I know I'm a little late responding to this thread but here goes. I believe it to be totally unethical to determine who wins a multi if it is not going to be you. If a player gets blocked out of their tix early they should draw more tix and try to complete them. They should never place multiple blocks on a player they cannot catch nor should they keep drawing tix to empty the deck and ruin the game for those who are still in competition.

Playing like that is like the last place race car driver purposely crashing into the leader just because he's last. Now that is what I call pathetic.

[Aktualisiert am: Thu, 26 July 2012 04:22]

      
CAT-pegaso
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Re:Blocking/Ethics discussion about blocking in multis (transferred from multi-tourney thread) Thu, 26 July 2012 11:16
Hello,
Although I'm not mentioned I am the (or one of the) pathetic.

I agree with you that the last player should not decide the winner. But I also defend my right to fight for the chance (for example, that the person allegedly fighting for the win has not really Seattle-New York) to improve a position no matter how small this chance is.

I've been playing for years and have been several occasions that surprisingly have not lost a game that was almost lost, just to continue fighting until the end.

Finally, it is clear that this is a problem that usually happens in the multis, so the really important championships are always 2ers.

I can continue discussing in this thread on ethics in the multis, but would prefer that the tone was that of early mails call people pathetic is not a good way to start a discussion, you should learn to better control your frustration, Tinman.
      
SY/\/ \/\/ill
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Re:Blocking/Ethics discussion about blocking in multis (transferred from multi-tourney thread) Thu, 26 July 2012 11:55

Quote:


10. Blocking one player from the start with the goal of reaching 3rd in stead of 4th position. I.e. I have crappy tix, and I single out the player most likely to have somewhat crappy tix as well.




I disagree, If your ticket choices are kans hous bo mia cal salt id go for third place and consider it a positive result to not come last. If you try to get new tickets youre starting on -12 and a turn behind, cut your losses and wait for a more favourable game
      
GSV3
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Re:Blocking/Ethics discussion about blocking in multis (transferred from multi-tourney thread) Thu, 26 July 2012 12:29
it's always possible to win with KAN-HOU and BO-MIA, but blocking is part of the game and there are too few blockers in multi...
My Top-3 blockers in Multi are:
- Sysyphus
- blubes
- Will
      
Sysyphus - Pommard
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Hidden cards in multi ! Thu, 04 October 2012 03:39
Please, top player who likes to block !

Dont play multi hidden cards because you were blocked previous game ! Bleeeeehhhh !

[Aktualisiert am: Thu, 04 October 2012 03:40]

      
    
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