Forum

Suche
Forum » Memoir '44 - English » Delayed Japanese Banzai!!!
Anzeigen: Heutige Nachrichten 
  
VerfasserThema
clexton27
Senior Member
Advanced Historian

Fan-Seite
Nachrichten: 3107
Registriert:
February 2007
Delayed Japanese Banzai!!! Mon, 24 September 2012 03:23
p. 7 Pacific Theater Rules:
Quote:

An ordered Japanese Infantry unit may move 2 hexes and still battle when carrying out a Close Assault on an enemy unit. Terrain movement and battle restrictions still apply.

A Japanese Infantry unit ordered by an Infantry Assault
Command card may move 2 hexes and battle during a Banzai charge, but it may
not move 3 hexes and battle.


If a Japanese unit moves two hexes and does not have an adjacent enemy unit when the Battle Phase begins, may it battle if an enemy unit retreats into a hex adjacent to it.

[Aktualisiert am: Mon, 24 September 2012 18:27]

      
Phread
Senior Member
Stiff Upper Lip

Fan-Seite
Nachrichten: 1778
Registriert:
December 2008
Re:Delayed Japanese Banzai!!! Mon, 24 September 2012 08:04
A Japanese infantry unit ordered by an Infantry Assault may move 2 and battle in close assault or at range.

Is your question really if an enemy unit is retreated next to the Japanese Infantry may it roll 4 dice in close assault?

IMHO the Japanese Infantry unit (having moved 2 hexes in appropriate terrain) could close assault with 4 dice even it it had received an ordinary order.
      
bdgza
Senior Member
Captain

Fan-Seite
Nachrichten: 254
Registriert:
February 2010
Re:Delayed Japanese Banzai!!! Mon, 24 September 2012 09:33
Your question: if I ordered a Jap INF and moved him 2 but not next to and enemy unit, and during other combat a unit retreats next to this unit, may it still Banzai?

My intuition says it would not be allowed to attack since there was no enemy unit when you moved it, so it was not 'ordered' to Banzai. But by going with the FAQ section for Close Assault I would say yes. The unit is ordered, it moved 2, so if a unit presents itself adjacent it is eligible to Banzai attack.

[Aktualisiert am: Mon, 24 September 2012 09:37]

      
Flemish_Havy
Senior Member
Lieutenant Colonel

Fan-Seite
Nachrichten: 478
Registriert:
October 2011
Re:Delayed Japanese Banzai!!! Mon, 24 September 2012 16:44
Intresting and shurely would like to know the outcome Rolling Eyes
      
Kelly's Hero
Senior Member
Lieutenant Colonel

Fan-Seite
Nachrichten: 303
Registriert:
April 2011
Re:Delayed Japanese Banzai!!! Mon, 24 September 2012 17:46
I would say yes you can do this, based on the following question from the FAQ supplement:

Quote:



Q. Is it is possible to assign a Firefight order to a unit which at the exact time of receiving the order is not capable of making an attack (within firing range of an opponent's unit)?
A. Yes, all the rule stipulates is that an ordered unit may not be adjacent to an enemy unit at the time of ordering. There is nothing wrong with ordering a unit, anticipating that a target may become available during the turn. Note: if an enemy unit retreats adjacent to a Firefight ordered unit that has not battled yet, then that unit may not battle.


      
bdgza
Senior Member
Captain

Fan-Seite
Nachrichten: 254
Registriert:
February 2010
Re:Delayed Japanese Banzai!!! Mon, 24 September 2012 18:01
Kelly's Hero wrote on Mon, 24 September 2012 17:46

I would say yes you can do this, based on the following question from the FAQ supplement:

Quote:



Q. Is it is possible to assign a Firefight order to a unit which at the exact time of receiving the order is not capable of making an attack (within firing range of an opponent's unit)?
A. Yes, all the rule stipulates is that an ordered unit may not be adjacent to an enemy unit at the time of ordering. There is nothing wrong with ordering a unit, anticipating that a target may become available during the turn. Note: if an enemy unit retreats adjacent to a Firefight ordered unit that has not battled yet, then that unit may not battle.





That is the same as what when I talked about basing it on Close Assault. If the unit is ordered, it may attack. But this is not conclusive. Even though the unit was ordered, moving 2 means it may not attack. The only reason it could attack is if it moved adjacent to another unit and did a Banzai. So it's not really about if the unit is ordered here (like in the FAQ answers for Firefight and Close Assault), it's about the timing of determining the Banzai/combat capability. When it moved 2 and was not adjacent to another unit, was it then 'marked' as no combat (non-Banzai capable), or do you remember it moved 2 but might still Banzai in case something changes later? You can't really go on the previous rulings for other issues on this one.
      
clexton27
Senior Member
Advanced Historian

Fan-Seite
Nachrichten: 3107
Registriert:
February 2007
Re:Delayed Japanese Banzai!!! Mon, 24 September 2012 18:22
I agree with you Bart. I just think it might need to be addressed in the FAQ as it could be subject to confusion.

I conclude as you do, that if the Japanese Banzai, they may ONLY attack (close assault) the units that are adjacent at the time. They may not attack units that retreat into their path later. Otherwise, we would be treating them as if they had been ordered by the Infantry Assault Card.

The Banzai Rule is not move two hexes and battle anyone, it is battle as long is there is an adjacent unit to close assault at the time.

[Aktualisiert am: Mon, 24 September 2012 18:24]

      
rasmussen81
DoW Content Provider
Designer's Oath

Fan-Seite
Nachrichten: 7194
Registriert:
July 2007
Re:Delayed Japanese Banzai!!! Mon, 24 September 2012 19:06
stevens wrote on Mon, 24 September 2012 20:22

I agree with you Bart. I just think it might need to be addressed in the FAQ as it could be subject to confusion.

I conclude as you do, that if the Japanese Banzai, they may ONLY attack (close assault) the units that are adjacent at the time. They may not attack units that retreat into their path later. Otherwise, we would be treating them as if they had been ordered by the Infantry Assault Card.

The Banzai Rule is not move two hexes and battle anyone, it is battle as long is there is an adjacent unit to close assault at the time.


I would completely agree, but it does seem to be a bit of a grey area. Great question, Stevens! Very Happy

I'll see about getting it into the FAQ.
      
ad79
Senior Member
Major Howard

Fan-Seite
Nachrichten: 789
Registriert:
September 2007
Re:Delayed Japanese Banzai!!! Tue, 25 September 2012 21:52
rasmussen81 wrote on Mon, 24 September 2012 19:06

stevens wrote on Mon, 24 September 2012 20:22

I agree with you Bart. I just think it might need to be addressed in the FAQ as it could be subject to confusion.

I conclude as you do, that if the Japanese Banzai, they may ONLY attack (close assault) the units that are adjacent at the time. They may not attack units that retreat into their path later. Otherwise, we would be treating them as if they had been ordered by the Infantry Assault Card.

The Banzai Rule is not move two hexes and battle anyone, it is battle as long is there is an adjacent unit to close assault at the time.


I would completely agree, but it does seem to be a bit of a grey area. Great question, Stevens! Very Happy

I'll see about getting it into the FAQ.



As stevens' Allied opponent in the scenario in question, I approve of this ruling. Laughing
      
50th
Senior Member
Armor Specialist

Fan-Seite
Nachrichten: 1417
Registriert:
October 2006
Re:Delayed Japanese Banzai!!! Tue, 25 September 2012 22:08
Here's what it says in the FAQ dated May 2010:
Q.When the Close Assault card is played and a unit retreats, which puts it next to a unit that originally was
not adjacent when the order was issued, can it battle?
A.No. Only units adjacent when the card is played are issued orders. If you have a lot of units being ordered
with the Close Assaultcard, you may want to mark all the units you order prior to any attacks to avoid
confusion.
      
bdgza
Senior Member
Captain

Fan-Seite
Nachrichten: 254
Registriert:
February 2010
Re:Delayed Japanese Banzai!!! Wed, 26 September 2012 01:28
50th wrote on Tue, 25 September 2012 22:08

Here's what it says in the FAQ dated May 2010:
Q.When the Close Assault card is played and a unit retreats, which puts it next to a unit that originally was
not adjacent when the order was issued, can it battle?
A.No. Only units adjacent when the card is played are issued orders. If you have a lot of units being ordered
with the Close Assaultcard, you may want to mark all the units you order prior to any attacks to avoid
confusion.


I talked about this in post 3 and 6 of this thread. Both Close Assault and Firefight FAQ deal with units that don't move, so it's not the same situation. The timing is different and we're talking about a special ability rather than a Command Card order itself.
      
50th
Senior Member
Armor Specialist

Fan-Seite
Nachrichten: 1417
Registriert:
October 2006
Re:Delayed Japanese Banzai!!! Wed, 26 September 2012 02:49
Yes, but according to what Stevens wrote, this would still be valid. The unit has to be in close assault in the beginning, after it's move, but before other units battle.
      
Phread
Senior Member
Stiff Upper Lip

Fan-Seite
Nachrichten: 1778
Registriert:
December 2008
Re:Delayed Japanese Banzai!!! Wed, 26 September 2012 07:00
One can order any unit to move to a position where it has no targets, then if a target is retreated within range it can attack in the battle phase.

Why should the be different for the JIA infantry which has moved 2 hexes? If a unit is forced to retreat next to the JIA infantry it should be able to exercise its attack - which would be a close assault.
      
Quit2
Senior Member
Advanced Historian

Fan-Seite
Nachrichten: 1216
Registriert:
July 2007
Re:Delayed Japanese Banzai!!! Wed, 26 September 2012 09:02
I agree with Phread.

The example of 50th is something different, since it is about the use of the card Close Assault. He is right about that one too.
      
bdgza
Senior Member
Captain

Fan-Seite
Nachrichten: 254
Registriert:
February 2010
Re:Delayed Japanese Banzai!!! Wed, 26 September 2012 09:47
Phread wrote on Wed, 26 September 2012 07:00

One can order any unit to move to a position where it has no targets, then if a target is retreated within range it can attack in the battle phase.


You can't order a normal infantry to move 2 when there are no targets and then let it attack if a target retreats into range, because it moved 2 it can't attack. This is the point of the question. Does the special ability hold when not immediately used. Are you allowed to attack because you can retro-actively declare Banzai or is it gone because you couldn't activate it when the unit moved. Banzai says you may attack if you move into close assault, when it moved there was no close assault.
      
Quit2
Senior Member
Advanced Historian

Fan-Seite
Nachrichten: 1216
Registriert:
July 2007
Re:Delayed Japanese Banzai!!! Wed, 26 September 2012 10:36
You get to choose in which order your units attack.

Example: a normal tank is moves 4 hexes away from any target. It is not able to battle. Another of your units attacks an enemy unit and forces it to retreat within range of your tank. Your tank still gets to battle.

See it like this:
Japanese infantry have a range of 3, with number of dices 3-2-1. When they move 2, they have a range of 1, with number of dices 3. (if they are at full strenght, it's +1 in close assault)
So if something gets moved withing that range of 1, they can still attack it.
      
bdgza
Senior Member
Captain

Fan-Seite
Nachrichten: 254
Registriert:
February 2010
Re:Delayed Japanese Banzai!!! Wed, 26 September 2012 11:20
Quit2 wrote on Wed, 26 September 2012 10:36

You get to choose in which order your units attack.

Example: a normal tank is moves 4 hexes away from any target. It is not able to battle. Another of your units attacks an enemy unit and forces it to retreat within range of your tank. Your tank still gets to battle.

See it like this:
Japanese infantry have a range of 3, with number of dices 3-2-1. When they move 2, they have a range of 1, with number of dices 3. (if they are at full strenght, it's +1 in close assault)
So if something gets moved withing that range of 1, they can still attack it.


But you moved all your units before you start with any attacks, so order of attack is irrelevant. Nowhere does it say Banzai means Japanese Infantry has a permanent range 1. Banzai says that units may move 2 hexes to combat into Close Assault. When they move they can't close assault, what then? Nothing you said here answers that decisively.

I have played Memoir '44 many times before, I am familiar with the attack range of armor, the attack range of infantry, and units retreating into range. I am also well aware of Seishin Kyoiku doctrine which has completely nothing to do with this.
      
deemao
Senior Member
Captain

Fan-Seite
Nachrichten: 170
Registriert:
March 2011
Re:Delayed Japanese Banzai!!! Wed, 26 September 2012 12:33
I think its simple - you get the advantage of 2 hexes move and battle only if at the end of your move phase some of enemy unit stands next to you. And its logical - no enemy in "sight distance" no japanese guy go crazy..

[Aktualisiert am: Wed, 26 September 2012 12:35]

      
Phread
Senior Member
Stiff Upper Lip

Fan-Seite
Nachrichten: 1778
Registriert:
December 2008
Re:Delayed Japanese Banzai!!! Wed, 26 September 2012 12:51
This is why we need a definitive ruling, two differing views.
      
bdgza
Senior Member
Captain

Fan-Seite
Nachrichten: 254
Registriert:
February 2010
Re:Delayed Japanese Banzai!!! Wed, 26 September 2012 13:14
Phread wrote on Wed, 26 September 2012 12:51

This is why we need a definitive ruling, two differing views.


Exactly.
      
RBorg
Game Designer
Cadet

Fan-Seite
Nachrichten: 238
Registriert:
December 2003
Re:Delayed Japanese Banzai!!! Wed, 26 September 2012 17:15
stevens wrote on Sun, 23 September 2012 21:23

p. 7 Pacific Theater Rules:
Quote:

An ordered Japanese Infantry unit may move 2 hexes and still battle when carrying out a Close Assault on an enemy unit. Terrain movement and battle restrictions still apply.

A Japanese Infantry unit ordered by an Infantry Assault
Command card may move 2 hexes and battle during a Banzai charge, but it may
not move 3 hexes and battle.


If a Japanese unit moves two hexes and does not have an adjacent enemy unit when the Battle Phase begins, may it battle if an enemy unit retreats into a hex adjacent to it.


(RB) Yes

Richard Borg
      
Quit2
Senior Member
Advanced Historian

Fan-Seite
Nachrichten: 1216
Registriert:
July 2007
Re:Delayed Japanese Banzai!!! Wed, 26 September 2012 17:24
Thank you dear sir.
      
Flemish_Havy
Senior Member
Lieutenant Colonel

Fan-Seite
Nachrichten: 478
Registriert:
October 2011
Re:Delayed Japanese Banzai!!! Wed, 26 September 2012 18:40
Another question solved by Mr Richard Borg, thx sir. Cool

I wonder by now, if he doesnt think: " where do they get all those difficult questions ? " Rolling Eyes
      
red_zebra
Senior Member
Lieutenant

Fan-Seite
Nachrichten: 333
Registriert:
February 2005
Re:Delayed Japanese Banzai!!! Wed, 26 September 2012 19:21
RBorg wrote on Wed, 26 September 2012 10:45



(RB) Yes

Richard Borg



BANZAAAAII!!!!
      
bdgza
Senior Member
Captain

Fan-Seite
Nachrichten: 254
Registriert:
February 2010
Re:Delayed Japanese Banzai!!! Wed, 26 September 2012 20:08
Flemish_Havy wrote on Wed, 26 September 2012 18:40

Another question solved by Mr Richard Borg, thx sir. Cool

I wonder by now, if he doesnt think: " where do they get all those difficult questions ? " Rolling Eyes


It's not difficult if you have all the answers. Smile
      
clexton27
Senior Member
Advanced Historian

Fan-Seite
Nachrichten: 3107
Registriert:
February 2007
Re:Delayed Japanese Banzai!!! Wed, 26 September 2012 21:55
ad79 wrote on Tue, 25 September 2012 15:52


As stevens' Allied opponent in the scenario in question, I approve of this ruling. Laughing


Thanks for the answer Richard. Despite your ruling, I will have mercy on Stig, because it is probably too late to undo the damage.

Paul [stevens]

[Aktualisiert am: Wed, 26 September 2012 23:37]

      
RBorg
Game Designer
Cadet

Fan-Seite
Nachrichten: 238
Registriert:
December 2003
Re:Delayed Japanese Banzai!!! Thu, 27 September 2012 05:31
We are all here for the fun...

Love to see the questions and some of the situations that come up in the game. Most of them, we have also experienced during playtesting, however, there are many that the community comes up with, that I have not seen before.

I like to keep things simple, if at all possible, but together we sure have put the WWII system to the test Razz

And the best part of this all, I still feel the best is still yet to come for our Memoir game...
Richard Borg
      
rasmussen81
DoW Content Provider
Designer's Oath

Fan-Seite
Nachrichten: 7194
Registriert:
July 2007
Re:Delayed Japanese Banzai!!! Thu, 27 September 2012 05:33
RBorg wrote on Thu, 27 September 2012 07:31

We are all here for the fun...

Love to see the questions and some of the situations that come up in the game. Most of them, we have also experienced during playtesting, however, there are many that the community comes up with, that I have not seen before.

I like to keep things simple, if at all possible, but together we sure have put the WWII system to the test Razz

And the best part of this all, I still feel the best is still yet to come for our Memoir game...
Richard Borg


Ah, I like the sound of that!!! Very Happy
      
sam1812
Senior Member
Brigadier General

Fan-Seite
Nachrichten: 2326
Registriert:
August 2006
Re:Delayed Japanese Banzai!!! Thu, 27 September 2012 06:11
RBorg wrote on Wed, 26 September 2012 23:31

And the best part of this all, I still feel the best is still yet to come for our Memoir game...
Richard Borg

Thank you, Richard. I'm looking forward to discovering what that means (at the appropriate time). Very Happy

Sam
      
Phread
Senior Member
Stiff Upper Lip

Fan-Seite
Nachrichten: 1778
Registriert:
December 2008
Re:Delayed Japanese Banzai!!! Thu, 27 September 2012 07:07
RBorg wrote on Wed, 26 September 2012 23:31

And the best part of this all, I still feel the best is still yet to come for our Memoir game...
Richard Borg


Thumbs Up Thumbs Up Thumbs Up Thumbs Up Thumbs Up Thumbs Up Very Happy Thumbs Up Thumbs Up Thumbs Up Thumbs Up Thumbs Up Very Happy Thumbs Up Thumbs Up Thumbs Up Thumbs Up Thumbs Up
      
Quit2
Senior Member
Advanced Historian

Fan-Seite
Nachrichten: 1216
Registriert:
July 2007
Re:Delayed Japanese Banzai!!! Thu, 27 September 2012 12:39
After his "2014 will be the 70th birthday of the landing in Normandy, expect something big!" this is the second time these last few days that Richard Hints towards the things to come. I am really looking foreward to all of it.
      
Almilcar
Senior Member
Letters From Iwo Jima

Fan-Seite
Nachrichten: 910
Registriert:
November 2011
Re:Delayed Japanese Banzai!!! Thu, 27 September 2012 22:54
Hello,

As I have said in other thread : we do understand the answer is to keep the game consistent. However, the "frenzy" action of a Banzai! should be done with a target in mind, not expecting that a target may appear somehow. Obviously we are not the creator of the rule, but that's how we do understand a "Banzai War" cry and we honestly think that it should be the spirit of the rule.

It sounds weird to us a "delayed banzai" after moved 2 hexes with no target insight.

Cheers

[Aktualisiert am: Thu, 27 September 2012 23:08]

      
Almilcar
Senior Member
Letters From Iwo Jima

Fan-Seite
Nachrichten: 910
Registriert:
November 2011
Re:Delayed Japanese Banzai!!! Thu, 27 September 2012 23:00
Moderator please delete. Duplicated.

[Aktualisiert am: Thu, 27 September 2012 23:00]

      
Phread
Senior Member
Stiff Upper Lip

Fan-Seite
Nachrichten: 1778
Registriert:
December 2008
Re:Delayed Japanese Banzai!!! Thu, 27 September 2012 23:12
Almilcar wrote on Fri, 28 September 2012 08:54

Hello,

As I have said in other thread : we do understand the answer is to keep the game consistent. However, the "frenzy" action of a Banzai! should be done with a target in mind, not expecting that a target may appear somehow. Obviously we are not the creator of the rule, but that's how we do understand a "Banzai War" cry and we honestly think that it should be the spirit of the rule.

It sounds weird to us a "delayed banzai" after moved 2 hexes with no target insight.

Cheers


I think Richard's ruling does keep the game consistent.
      
Almilcar
Senior Member
Letters From Iwo Jima

Fan-Seite
Nachrichten: 910
Registriert:
November 2011
Re:Delayed Japanese Banzai!!! Thu, 27 September 2012 23:14
Phread wrote on Thu, 27 September 2012 23:12

Almilcar wrote on Fri, 28 September 2012 08:54

Hello,

As I have said in other thread : we do understand the answer is to keep the game consistent. However, the "frenzy" action of a Banzai! should be done with a target in mind, not expecting that a target may appear somehow. Obviously we are not the creator of the rule, but that's how we do understand a "Banzai War" cry and we honestly think that it should be the spirit of the rule.

It sounds weird to us a "delayed banzai" after moved 2 hexes with no target insight.

Cheers


I think Richard's ruling does keep the game consistent.


Yea, that is the first sentence of my post.
      
Phread
Senior Member
Stiff Upper Lip

Fan-Seite
Nachrichten: 1778
Registriert:
December 2008
Re:Delayed Japanese Banzai!!! Thu, 27 September 2012 23:18
Then you go on to disagree with the ruling.

I think your interpretation is/was wrong. I disagreed with it before Richard's ruling which agreed with my view.
      
bdgza
Senior Member
Captain

Fan-Seite
Nachrichten: 254
Registriert:
February 2010
Re:Delayed Japanese Banzai!!! Thu, 27 September 2012 23:56
Almilcar wrote on Thu, 27 September 2012 22:54

Hello,

As I have said in other thread : we do understand the answer is to keep the game consistent. However, the "frenzy" action of a Banzai! should be done with a target in mind, not expecting that a target may appear somehow. Obviously we are not the creator of the rule, but that's how we do understand a "Banzai War" cry and we honestly think that it should be the spirit of the rule.

It sounds weird to us a "delayed banzai" after moved 2 hexes with no target insight.

Cheers


I think either of the two views would have made sense, and I could've supported either. We just needed to know which interpretation was the correct one as intended by the game designer.
      
sdnative
Senior Member
Colonel

Fan-Seite
Nachrichten: 452
Registriert:
February 2009
Re:Delayed Japanese Banzai!!! Fri, 28 September 2012 03:30
Almilcar wrote on Thu, 27 September 2012 13:54

Hello,

As I have said in other thread : we do understand the answer is to keep the game consistent. However, the "frenzy" action of a Banzai! should be done with a target in mind, not expecting that a target may appear somehow. Obviously we are not the creator of the rule, but that's how we do understand a "Banzai War" cry and we honestly think that it should be the spirit of the rule.

It sounds weird to us a "delayed banzai" after moved 2 hexes with no target insight.

Cheers


You also have to take in the time factor..How long in seconds is a players turn?
I do not think that a Japanese unit would run then stop you have to think of movement as almost simultaneous so while the Japanese were moving an enemy unit retreated towards them and they engaged in close combat.

[Aktualisiert am: Fri, 28 September 2012 05:23]

      
rasmussen81
DoW Content Provider
Designer's Oath

Fan-Seite
Nachrichten: 7194
Registriert:
July 2007
Re:Delayed Japanese Banzai!!! Fri, 28 September 2012 03:40
sdnative wrote on Fri, 28 September 2012 05:30

Almilcar wrote on Thu, 27 September 2012 13:54

Hello,

As I have said in other thread : we do understand the answer is to keep the game consistent. However, the "frenzy" action of a Banzai! should be done with a target in mind, not expecting that a target may appear somehow. Obviously we are not the creator of the rule, but that's how we do understand a "Banzai War" cry and we honestly think that it should be the spirit of the rule.

It sounds weird to us a "delayed banzai" after moved 2 hexes with no target insight.

Cheers


You also have to take in the time factor..How long in seconds is a players turn?
I do not think that a Japanese unit would run then stop you have to think of movement as almost simultaneous so while the Japanese were moving an enemy unit retreated towards them and they engaged in close combat.



That's a great way of thinking about it! Very Happy
      
Almilcar
Senior Member
Letters From Iwo Jima

Fan-Seite
Nachrichten: 910
Registriert:
November 2011
Re:Delayed Japanese Banzai!!! Fri, 28 September 2012 07:49
Hello,

our interpretation is pointless since there is an official ruling now. However, we did have our own point of view but we will stick to official policies, as we always do.

We never thought about the timing but it's another abstraction of how the rule can be applied.

Cheers
      
Seiten (2): [1  2  >  » ]     
Vorheriges Thema:memoir44 on ubuntu?
Nächstes Thema:Vichy French Rule
Gehen Sie zum Forum: