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Quit2
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Re:What would you like for the 10th Anniversary of Memoir44? Sun, 07 October 2012 14:49
You have a deck of deployment cards. (in Battlelore, there are 42 different cards)
Those cards depict the first 4 rows of one section of the battlefield. On it, there are a few units depicted.
(I'll translate to Memoir lingo now.)
For example, on the second row from your baseline, there is one infantry unit on the second hex from the left and one armor unit on the third hex from the left. And on the third row from your baseline, there is one infantry on the first hex from the left and one on the fourth hex from the left. Other cards could only place 3 units, or 5, or ...
You randomly pick 3 cards to apply one to each of your sections: left, right and centre. You place the units marked on the cards onto the game board.
Any unit that would be placed on an illegal hex (impassible terrain, ...) is instead placed on a baseline hex of the players choice.

Then you get a certain number of specialists cards (example: each player gets 3 cards).
Those could be:
- Add an engineer badge to 2 infantry units of your choice
- Add a sniper unit on a hex adjacent to one of your infantry units.
- Replace one normal armor unit by a single tiger tank figure.
- Add sandbags to up to 3 units of your choice
- Place 5 mines on the battlefield
- Place 4 barbed wire obstacles and 3 hedgehogs on the battlefield
- and so on ... (you can surely imagine more of these)

In battlelore, the cards you used (you got them randomly) determines the starting player. The weaker the cards you got, the more chance you will be tha starting player.
You could in the same way determine how many command cards a player gets.
For example: each deployment card could show a number (1 for the stronger cards, 2 for the weaker) and when you add up those numbers, you'll get a number from 3 to 6, which could be your hand size. Only 3 cards when you get a very strong army, up to 6 when you get a weak army.

With these cards, you could take any map with terrain but no units, and get alot of fun out of it, because each game on the same map would be completely different, because of different unit placement. Especially with the specialists cards, there could be alot of variation.

But of course, some of the designed scenarios we have now would never occur with this system. So we stille need those scenario designers.
      
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Re:What would you like for the 10th Anniversary of Memoir44? Sun, 07 October 2012 15:22
Thanks for taking the time to explain that system. It sounds like fun and sounds like it would be fun in BattleLore. For some people that would work really well for Memoir '44 as well...

The problem I see with this system, though, is that Memoir '44 is a historical game. One of the main things that attracted me to the game (aside from the great figures, nicely designed board, high quality cardboard, great playing method, etc) was the strong historical content! Personally, I don't want to lose that aspect of the game.

But to each his own. If you're already making imaginary scenarios, this sounds like it would work perfectly. Like I always say, as long as you're having fun then the game is doing its job! Very Happy
      
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Re:What would you like for the 10th Anniversary of Memoir44? Sun, 07 October 2012 15:31
Almilcar wrote on Sat, 06 October 2012 04:23

rasmussen81 wrote on Fri, 05 October 2012 22:41


Sounds like fun! So kind of a combination of Risk and Memoir '44?

It sounds like Antoine from DoW had a similar idea because in his own time he's set up a system a little bit like that using Memoir '44 Online. Maybe someday we'll see something like that for the tabletop version like you're talking about. Who knows? Smile


I think he is refering more to something like this:

http://www.roughdraft.me/?cat=7

"The Memoir Experiments" outlines a different way to play campaigns.

Take a peek at it if you have the time. I think it is a neat idea of playing a campaign without adulterating the gameplay.



Actually that's not what I had in mind. It would be a completely different game - two games in one actually. At the top level a strategic campaign game dealing with resources, supply lines, positioning forces, committing forces and resources for attack, and selecting battle objectives - thus determining or causing battles to occur. The top-level game is a higher level map, likely not hexagonal, but regional. Battles are fought on the Memoir '44 board, but setup is determined by the players and forces they committed to each region.

Each campaign would have to be designed individually and balanced, much like Memoir scenarios, but with totally different components. So there would be base maps for North Afrika, France, etc. that would be general enough to enable multiple campaign designs. The outcome of the battles determines regional control, troop strenght and supply conditions, etc. on the higher level board. Game ends when campaign game conditions/objectives are met.

The campaign board would be setup according to historical conditions for the start of the campaign. However, the individual Memoir scenarios would not be pre-determined by history. The setup would be determined by the players and the choices they made at the campaign board level. Thus the players are now much higher in the command structure on the campaign level and determine (i.e., they choose) the battle objectives they must complete in order to win the pre-determined campaign objectives.

[Aktualisiert am: Sun, 07 October 2012 15:37]

      
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Re:What would you like for the 10th Anniversary of Memoir44? Sun, 07 October 2012 15:56
Rasmussen, I was just elaborating on what others had been writing.
Your last post of the previous page actually talks about a system of random troop deployment on a set map. (and indeed you already mention that it would loose the historical aspect)
I just wanted to point out that Richard already has a similar system designed for one of his other Comand and Colors games.
So if DoW wants a random troop deployment system for Memoir, Richard already has designed a way that works, so no need to invent something new.
      
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Re:What would you like for the 10th Anniversary of Memoir44? Sun, 07 October 2012 17:26
Quit2 wrote on Sun, 07 October 2012 17:56

Rasmussen, I was just elaborating on what others had been writing.
Your last post of the previous page actually talks about a system of random troop deployment on a set map. (and indeed you already mention that it would loose the historical aspect)
I just wanted to point out that Richard already has a similar system designed for one of his other Comand and Colors games.
So if DoW wants a random troop deployment system for Memoir, Richard already has designed a way that works, so no need to invent something new.


Hi Quit2,

Thank you for elaborating, and it sounds like a great method. It also sounds perfect for what some people are wanting to do. Some day I would love to try BattleLore and this sounds like another good reason to pick up a copy sometime in the future. On a related note, how has FFG been doing with that game system?

I'm sure Richard has in mind the fact that he already created a good mechanism for making a random board, but a historical board game loses some of its 'historical' part if it's just a combat simulator without any history. I expect that DoW and Richard have something fun and completely new for Memoir '44 that we haven't seen in any of the other C&C games! At least that's what I hope. Cool
      
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Re:What would you like for the 10th Anniversary of Memoir44? Sun, 07 October 2012 19:47
FFG has not done much. There have not been many new expansions since the transfer from DoW to FFG, and somehow I got the feeling that FFG only completed the projects that were still under development at DoW and did not create anything truely new.
However, at the time of the transfer, Battlelore was already well developed. What is really a pity, is that the whole database with SFTF scenarios got lost in the transfer. FFG does not provide support in that matter, or I did not find where and how. Same goes for a scenario editor, etc ...

The game is very similar to Memoir, but still very different. Terrain plays much less of a role than in Memoir. It is more about keeping your units grouped, much more than with Memoir. For example: when a unit is adjacent to two friendly units, it is bold: it can ignore one flag and can battle back: that means it can attack the attacker back (with full dice) if it was not eliminated or forced to retreat.

Also: most unis can only attack in close combat. Swords don't reach that far. Only the equivalent of memoirs artilery, the archers can shoot over a distance, but those have few attack dice and can be hit as easily as other infantry.
This also changes the play expience alot.

Another difference is that the base game box of battlelore already contains alot.
You have the lore cards, somewhat compareable to the urban/winter combat cards in memoir. It contains a giant spider, somewhat compareble to the tiger tank in memoir. It also has some goblin and dwarven units. Goblins can run 2 and attack (a bit like our japanese) and have to retreat 2 for each flag and check for extra losses when retreating. Dwarves are always bold (see description above), so it is as if there are already some army packs and other expansions in the base game box.
And yet an advantage: each unit has one banner barer. That is the last figure of a unit that you remove. It's banner shows you that that figure goes on your victory display, so you can't accidently forget - something I sometimes do with memoir.

And then I did not even mention the expansions. For example, the heroes expansion allows for a well rounded way of campaign play. And with the call to arms expansion, you can have variable troop deployment.

All in all, I think that aside from the historical aspect of Memoir, Battlelore is the better game. It is just a pity that there is no real community around it and that there is no possibility of online play. If there would be more players and an online version, I'd switch to that game immediately. I think the community is more limited only because of the theme, and not because of the quality of the game. There are just more fans of WWII then of medieval and fantasy theme.

I think Battlelore got sold by DoW to liberate some budget to create Memoir Online. I would have prefered they'd sold memoir to create Battlelore online, but I suspect that stricktly business wise, they made the correct choice.

[Aktualisiert am: Sun, 07 October 2012 19:52]

      
--JP
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Re:What would you like for the 10th Anniversary of Memoir44? Sun, 07 October 2012 20:50
I am with you, Quit2.

Got into BL first. Have all the stuff, 2 base sets, etc.

Best way to play is Reluctant Allies, with Call to Arms and each of the 4 of us has a Hero. Never the same game twice, from set up to finish. Just am fortunate to enjoy both systems.

But it would be nice to see some additional BL support.

Biggest differences (beyond the 'lore aspect'): Memoir is all about use of terrain. Dozens and Dozens of terrain types, with only a narrow variety of units. BL is the opposite. Dozens and dozens of unit varieties and only a narrow range of terrain types.

      
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Re:What would you like for the 10th Anniversary of Memoir44? Sun, 07 October 2012 22:35
Achtung Panzer wrote on Fri, 05 October 2012 10:27

What about Flamethrower SWA? Same rules as Flamethrower tanks but a once-only use, then treat as normal Infantry.

Thanks to my son for the idea.


sounds like a good idea, always in for a BBQ ! Laughing
      
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Re:What would you like for the 10th Anniversary of Memoir44? Sun, 07 October 2012 22:37
Sayburr wrote on Fri, 05 October 2012 22:11

A hardbacked book with every scenario (updated to latest version if a scenario has more than one version) in it. This book would also tie together older scenarios into campaigns.


Would love that ! Cool
      
Almilcar
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Re:What would you like for the 10th Anniversary of Memoir44? Mon, 08 October 2012 17:39
Hello,

Since there is an important amount of players who would like to explore and see other way of playing campaigns, why don't we try to come up with a robust and consolidated method built for and by the community?

Wouldn't be a good project to start?

Cheers
      
sgaines
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Re:What would you like for the 10th Anniversary of Memoir44? Mon, 08 October 2012 21:00
[quote title=Sgt Storm wrote on Thu, 04 October 2012 10:48]
sniperscout wrote on Wed, 03 October 2012 15:40


Also:
- a campaign system that is more than just a handful of normal scenarios strung together.



Did someone say campaign system?!?

I am still fiddling with this. It is not quite where I want it yet...I have played three turns of a test campaign and there are somethings that need to be revamped BUT, I like where it is going.

I think a campaign makes you play the game a lot differently than just trying to rush out and get your medals.
      
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Re:What would you like for the 10th Anniversary of Memoir44? Mon, 08 October 2012 22:16
Dear folks, this is one of the most interesting discussions I EVER read on this forum. Thanks to all involved!

Can't believe this discussion came after I've calculated for days how players could technically easy set up a random game (my working title for that is "paintball mode") and I'm pretty close to a conclusion that it would be done the easiest way by using a given number of points which you can spend to buy units, place obstacles, gain initiative etc.

I don't want to be misunderstood, my opinion is that one of the greatest aspects of M44 is its historical background. If that was a random strategy game based on WWII iconography I would've never bought it.

I'm trying to create such system for a few reasons:

1. To me it's a great thrill to be able to freely compose an army team using limited resources to fight the opponent most efficiently. That gives the player countless interesting possibilities of approach to the situation.

2. We have so many incredibly cool and specialized units (even the players who still didn't get themselves the Equipment pack). I'd love if we'd be able to use the units we like to see in action while still staying inside of a firm system that would prevent unnecesarry imbalance (although M44 fans are not usually balance freaks, but still...).

What I would like to develop is the point system that would be based on smallest possible numbers (ideal example in this aspect - cost of inf 1, armor 2, artillery 3 etc. but the numbers will have to be certainly a bit bigger to have better proportions).

Of course, there is also the question of terrain setup (random map mechanics or - other option - way of using the historical map and perhaps the forces) and few other issues. The idea is to keep things the simplest possible and user friendly.

I see the eventual campaign system that would go beyond the level of complexity of campaigns done so far to be too complicated for my taste, so I'm not considering to take things to such level. I'd be more than happy if single battles would work this way...

[Aktualisiert am: Mon, 08 October 2012 22:23]

      
sgaines
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Re:What would you like for the 10th Anniversary of Memoir44? Mon, 08 October 2012 23:14
Lujo,

I think you have some good ideas and I think it is natural to want to expand the system. I think the system lends itself to really being a 'toolkit' for more ambitious products.

You mention about trying to control imbalance in the campaign. Honestly, I think if you are trying to run a campaign you play the cards dealt to you...forgive the pun.

In imbalance I like to think of a little exchange in Star Trek 2: The Wrath of Khan....

Saavik: Permission to speak freely, sir?
Kirk: Granted.
Saavik: I do not believe this was a fair test of my command abilities.
Kirk: And why not?
Saavik: Because... there was no way to win.
Kirk: A no-win situation is a possibility every commander may face. Has that never occurred to you?
Saavik: No, sir, it has not.
Kirk: And how we deal with death is at least as important as how we deal with life, wouldn't you say?
Saavik: As I indicated, Admiral, that thought had not occurred to me.
Kirk: Well, now you have something new to think about. Carry on.


Granted, too many lopsided battles will kill the spirit of the game, but I think that if you are playing a campaign it is really a much more holistic experience.

I am starting to build a campaign around historic force compositions. So a maneuver element might look like this in my campaign (each unit is a battalion):

Panzer Division

2 x Tank battalions
4 x Mechanized infantry battalions
1 x Artillery regiment
1 x SP artillery battalion
1 x Reconnaissance battalion
1 x 20/37mm or 88mm Flak battalion
1 x ATG battalion
1 x Engineer Mechanized infantry battalion
All infantry were motorized so they will act as elite infantry units


Tank Corps

3 x T34 brigades
3 x Mechanised Infantry battalions
1 x 120mm mortar regiment
1 x Rocket battalion
1 x Light (Su76) regiment
1 x Heavy (Su122) regiment
1 x KV regiment
1 x ATG battalion
1 x Reconnaissance battalion
1 x Engineer Mechanised Infantry Battalion
All infantry were motorized so they will act as elite infantry units

Obviously, there were great variations on textbook strengths, but that gives you a starting point. Having historically based formations fighting in generated scenarios seems like a good start.
      
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Re:What would you like for the 10th Anniversary of Memoir44? Mon, 08 October 2012 23:35
Personally I think there is no reason Memoir '44 has to be dependent on historical scenarios, even though that's basically its pedigree. I think a system where the terrain is historically accurate but the force composition and positions on the board are achieved either randomly or through both strategic choices and the allocation of available "resources" would be refreshing.

Truthfully I sometimes pay very little attention to the historical aspects of the Memoir '44 scenarios I play. I like games and plastic soldiers and I also like WWII history, but I don't find it necessary for them to be always tied together.

[Aktualisiert am: Mon, 08 October 2012 23:36]

      
sgaines
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Re:What would you like for the 10th Anniversary of Memoir44? Tue, 09 October 2012 02:16
Sgt Storm,

I think you have a valid point. I have always wondered why there isn't more of a divergence from historical purity from a battle standpoint. At one time I was a historical miniatures gamer and just always remember people wanting to nail down every nuance of a historical refight. Knowing the entire reinforcement schedule of a particular battle seems to defeat the purpose of the refight. I always liked randomly generated battles with the correct troop capabilities.

      
sgaines
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Re:What would you like for the 10th Anniversary of Memoir44? Tue, 09 October 2012 02:22
Take a look at this link for a simple WW2 miniatures system. Scroll down a bit and see how they handle battles and campaigning. It is an insane simple way to run a campaign, but it adds a new layer that might be a good start.

http://www.oocities.org/glasgowphoenix/kissprint.html

[Aktualisiert am: Tue, 09 October 2012 02:23]

      
rasmussen81
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Re:What would you like for the 10th Anniversary of Memoir44? Tue, 09 October 2012 03:57
sgaines wrote on Tue, 09 October 2012 04:22

Take a look at this link for a simple WW2 miniatures system. Scroll down a bit and see how they handle battles and campaigning. It is an insane simple way to run a campaign, but it adds a new layer that might be a good start.

http://www.oocities.org/glasgowphoenix/kissprint.html


I'm afraid the link isn't working as you have it. See if this works better:

http://www.oocities.org/glasgowphoenix/kissprint.html
      
Lujo
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Re:What would you like for the 10th Anniversary of Memoir44? Tue, 09 October 2012 12:06
I must say I'm very glad we feel the similar way regarding this question. I would too like to connect the joy of playing with plastic soldiers to the M44 system with its historical moments too, as Sgt Storm just perfectly said.
Yes, Sgaines, I'd also say you're quite right about the balance and imbalance question, sorry for me being unclear previously.

What I had in mind guys when I mentioned balance is, if playing a historical scenario in alternative way using points, it would be great to keep the value of each player's forces the same (more like a historical balance). You'd have the troops' and removable obstacles' of the original scenario total value calculated in points, and maybe that's the number each side should have to buy troops.

So, the idea would be something like this:
1. Setting up the terrain.
2. Determining the number of points for each side.*
2. Buying troops** and initiative.
3. Putting the troops in the field in a manner determined with the simple table showing the connection between initiative difference and the manner of deployment.
4. Dealing each player the number of cards also determined by the initiative/cards table OR just leaving the scenarios' original number of cards***.
5. Having fun. Smile


* Also there is a possibility of doing a slight variation to the "historical" number of points each player would get by rolling a few normal d6 dice each and adding that value. That might bring some interesting variety.

** To keep the army stucture more regular, maybe both sides should first obligatory buy 2/3 of the regular infantry from the original scenario (rounded up). It would also be useful to have a table showing which M44 units are available at what year of the war so that the Tigers don't enter Warsaw in '39 Razz

*** That should be determined before players show each other the number of points allocated for the initiative, so the decision goes between phases 2 and 3.

If you think this is worth elaborating, I'll gladly try to live up to your expectations Very Happy
      
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Re:What would you like for the 10th Anniversary of Memoir44? Tue, 09 October 2012 21:15
Lujo,

That's very interesting. One thing I thought about in the past was how to remove some of the luck of the (card) draw from the game.

I thought such a system might include these factors:

1. Each side gets the same number of section cards of same type
2. Each side gets a certain number of tactical points which can be used to purchase tactics cards

I was wondering how this might integrate into a point system that is used to purchase units and defensive positions.

On second thought, this probably would not work with the current card deck, but I thought I'd mention it anyway.
      
Almilcar
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Re:What would you like for the 10th Anniversary of Memoir44? Tue, 09 October 2012 23:00
Hello,

I think the campaign mode some of us have been asking for is already invented. Looks like Antoine (DoW staff) is testing something that looks quite interesting. Let me say that it has nothing to do with DoW and he is running this campaign mode in his free time, out of work.

So far, the rules are only in French, so non-french speakers can hardly take part.

http://www.daysofwonder.com/en/msg/?th=26154&start=0

And those are the forums.

http://m44metajeu.fr-bb.com/
      
tank commander
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Re:What would you like for the 10th Anniversary of Memoir44? Tue, 09 October 2012 23:49
sgaines wrote on Mon, 08 October 2012 20:16

Sgt Storm,

I think you have a valid point. I have always wondered why there isn't more of a divergence from historical purity from a battle standpoint. At one time I was a historical miniatures gamer and just always remember people wanting to nail down every nuance of a historical refight. Knowing the entire reinforcement schedule of a particular battle seems to defeat the purpose of the refight. I always liked randomly generated battles with the correct troop capabilities.





I used to setup 1/285 micro-armor battles and it was always difficult t come up with a scenario which was balanced. Sometimes a player would do something so unexpected it would throw any balance out of the window. Or sometimes one side would be in the process of steamrolling the other side.

One of the best ideas I came across was when one side was in trouble, introduce additional units on their side to even things out again. I would let both sides roll for events (which could mean reinforcements or sometimes just plain nothing) during a battle. But sometimes I would take it upon myself to throw in a fresh unit at an unexpected time / and or place to get thep players out of their comfort zone.
      
van Voort
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Re:What would you like for the 10th Anniversary of Memoir44? Wed, 10 October 2012 00:10
Quit2 wrote on Wed, 03 October 2012 09:54

All existing units, terrain, actions, combat cards, ... being supported by the online game and the editor.
Breakthrough and Overlord for the online game.
A way to filter out sftf scenarios in the online game based on your personal rating. E.G. All scenarios I personally rated 1 star, all those I rated 2 stars, ...



+1 to infinity

Artimon wrote on Wed, 03 October 2012 18:11




And, of course, more official scenarios on the Online (when I say more, I mean more interesting scenarios, not others UTAH BEACH please Rolling Eyes )


Some of the best user created maps to become new official ones



Also:

User created maps to expire if non one plays them or the creator goes AWOL
      
ad79
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Re:What would you like for the 10th Anniversary of Memoir44? Wed, 10 October 2012 21:14
10th anniversary of Memoir and 70th anniversary of the D-day.

I guess Days Of Wonder pretty much has control over what this will be already and I think they will handle it well.

But what is on my wishlist?

A proper D-day campaign with several scenarios for each beach that incorporates the huge variety of units, rules and terrain now available. Hopefully this will be offered as standard, BT and Overlord.

More campaigns for the various theaters and battles. Italy, Market-Garden, Operation Bagration etc, etc.

More themed packs like Winter Wars. Jungle, Dessert etc, Market-Garden, Iwo Jima

More Battle maps with BT and standard scenarios included. If campaign rules for the overlord scenarios were include it would be awesome.

Another thing I would like to see is something GMT did in it's last C3i issue for it'sC&C: Ancients game. There Richard Borg and Ken Duke each designed an overlord battle covering the same battle. Imagine how cool it would be to see Richard, Jacques, Don and a few others tackle the same battle and see how their design philosophies made the scenarios different. It has been done with Sword Beach in the BT kit(Richard and Jacques).
Monte Cassino or Omaha Beach in overlord form would be cool. Guys, are you up for it?

So basically more Memoir is my wishlist. Laughing

Maybe a Memoir advent calendar with 24 scenarios could be an idea?
      
stevens
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Re:What would you like for the 10th Anniversary of Memoir44? Wed, 10 October 2012 21:59
ad79 wrote on Wed, 10 October 2012 15:14

10th anniversary of Memoir and 70th anniversary of the D-day.So basically more Memoir is my wishlist. Laughing

Maybe a Memoir advent calendar with 24 scenarios could be an idea?


As long as it takes Stig and I to play a campaign on Vassal via PBEM this means I know what I will be doing for the remainder of my days on earth. Laughing Laughing
      
ad79
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Re:What would you like for the 10th Anniversary of Memoir44? Wed, 10 October 2012 22:43
stevens wrote on Wed, 10 October 2012 21:59

ad79 wrote on Wed, 10 October 2012 15:14

10th anniversary of Memoir and 70th anniversary of the D-day.So basically more Memoir is my wishlist. Laughing

Maybe a Memoir advent calendar with 24 scenarios could be an idea?


As long as it takes Stig and I to play a campaign on Vassal via PBEM this means I know what I will be doing for the remainder of my days on earth. Laughing Laughing

I think we were pretty effective today. I did one turn before going to work and 1 turn when I came home. A reply from you now and I can do one before going to bed. Laughing
      
Quit2
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Re:What would you like for the 10th Anniversary of Memoir44? Sat, 13 October 2012 14:28
I have been thinking about the discussion: historical accuracy vs random troop deployment.

I think it is kind of weird: the historical accuracy fans don't see a problem with changing history once the game has started. The have the other side win, they make other tactical decisions, the make historically incorrect troop movement, ...
So as the memoir44 field commander, they get to make other decisions as the original commander, once the battle has started. However, they don't want to make other decisions before the start of the battle, as to how the troops are deployed onto the battlefield.

I think this is weird. Why is one allowed, and the other not?

That said: I think a troop deployment system (not necessarily random) could be a nice addition to memoir. You could still play on accurate maps, but you'd get one more decision to make: how to deploy your troops on that map before the start of the battle.
      
Almilcar
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Re:What would you like for the 10th Anniversary of Memoir44? Sat, 13 October 2012 15:02
Quit2 wrote on Sat, 13 October 2012 14:28


That said: I think a troop deployment system (not necessarily random) could be a nice addition to memoir. You could still play on accurate maps, but you'd get one more decision to make: how to deploy your troops on that map before the start of the battle.


That is what my gaming group is looking for:

you are responsible of the deployment of troops before starting and of the outcome of the battle, using the tactics you consider the best to achieve the conditions of victory.

Cheers
      
rasmussen81
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Re:What would you like for the 10th Anniversary of Memoir44? Sat, 13 October 2012 15:22
Quit2 wrote on Sat, 13 October 2012 16:28

I think it is kind of weird: the historical accuracy fans don't see a problem with changing history once the game has started. The have the other side win, they make other tactical decisions, the make historically incorrect troop movement, ...
So as the memoir44 field commander, they get to make other decisions as the original commander, once the battle has started. However, they don't want to make other decisions before the start of the battle, as to how the troops are deployed onto the battlefield.

I think this is weird. Why is one allowed, and the other not?


As a member of the 'historical accuracy' club (maybe even the member that you're talking to! Razz), let me try to explain my thinking. Smile

Memoir '44, like many of the other Command & Color system games, is a historical board game. Every scenario, soldier, terrain tile, campaign, etc is based on history. There is a short historical narrative provided before every battle and for some of them you can identify exactly which troops are being talked about as you read.

This game is designed to reflect true events and that is one of the many things I love about it. Because of the strong connection to history (all of which was done very deliberately by Richard Borg and DoW), Memoir '44 can help all of us remember the sacrifices made for our freedom in specific battles. The historical elements are so strong, in fact, that I have used this game to teach World War II history to my elementary students. When I return to the United States I plan on doing that again.

All of those are reasons why I like the historical side of Memoir '44.

Quote:

That said: I think a troop deployment system (not necessarily random) could be a nice addition to memoir. You could still play on accurate maps, but you'd get one more decision to make: how to deploy your troops on that map before the start of the battle.


I'm sure that if you guys figure out a way to deploy troops before the battle begins, you'll have a great time and it might even make Memoir '44 more enjoyable for you. However, I believe that by taking away the historical placement of the troops, you're removing a large part of the history.

You might say, "But the terrain is still the same!" True...but the battle will go from, "This battle really took place and we have a chance to put ourselves in the shoes of Rommel and Patton" to, "This is a real place and we get to fight this battle." In my opinion, you're losing a big part of what makes Memoir so great.

Not everyone agrees with me and I understand that. Who knows, maybe Richard Borg is reading this thread and likes the idea of players distributing troops. Maybe a future expansion will provide that for people who want to have more control. Personally, I don't think this is likely because there is such a focus on history to this point. But if it was created, I would probably still enjoy it...but I would miss the history.

I hope this all makes sense. Sorry it's such a long post. Razz Cool
      
stevens
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Re:What would you like for the 10th Anniversary of Memoir44? Sat, 13 October 2012 16:11
rasmussen81 wrote on Sat, 13 October 2012 09:22

Quit2 wrote on Sat, 13 October 2012 16:28

I think it is kind of weird: the historical accuracy fans don't see a problem with changing history once the game has started. The have the other side win, they make other tactical decisions, the make historically incorrect troop movement, ...
So as the memoir44 field commander, they get to make other decisions as the original commander, once the battle has started. However, they don't want to make other decisions before the start of the battle, as to how the troops are deployed onto the battlefield.

I think this is weird. Why is one allowed, and the other not?


As a member of the 'historical accuracy' club (maybe even the member that you're talking to! Razz), let me try to explain my thinking. Smile

Memoir '44, like many of the other Command & Color system games, is a historical board game. Every scenario, soldier, terrain tile, campaign, etc is based on history. There is a short historical narrative provided before every battle and for some of them you can identify exactly which troops are being talked about as you read.

This game is designed to reflect true events and that is one of the many things I love about it. Because of the strong connection to history (all of which was done very deliberately by Richard Borg and DoW), Memoir '44 can help all of us remember the sacrifices made for our freedom in specific battles. The historical elements are so strong, in fact, that I have used this game to teach World War II history to my elementary students. When I return to the United States I plan on doing that again.

All of those are reasons why I like the historical side of Memoir '44.

Quote:

That said: I think a troop deployment system (not necessarily random) could be a nice addition to memoir. You could still play on accurate maps, but you'd get one more decision to make: how to deploy your troops on that map before the start of the battle.


I'm sure that if you guys figure out a way to deploy troops before the battle begins, you'll have a great time and it might even make Memoir '44 more enjoyable for you. However, I believe that by taking away the historical placement of the troops, you're removing a large part of the history.

You might say, "But the terrain is still the same!" True...but the battle will go from, "This battle really took place and we have a chance to put ourselves in the shoes of Rommel and Patton" to, "This is a real place and we get to fight this battle." In my opinion, you're losing a big part of what makes Memoir so great.

Not everyone agrees with me and I understand that. Who knows, maybe Richard Borg is reading this thread and likes the idea of players distributing troops. Maybe a future expansion will provide that for people who want to have more control. Personally, I don't think this is likely because there is such a focus on history to this point. But if it was created, I would probably still enjoy it...but I would miss the history.

I hope this all makes sense. Sorry it's such a long post. Razz Cool


I for one am mostly in agreement with Ras. To me what stimulates my interest is the historical narrrative and the link with actual battles and soldiers. Being that my real job involves these elements as well, I definitely lean to not allowing random troop deployment. However, if that is another way to draw young folks into considering the history, then maybe not such a bad thing.

My moniker "stevens" is the last name of a real WWII hero. His army photo is my icon. I always want to remember Roy Stevens and what he and other brave men did on D-Day and so I remember him intentionally in this way so that others might learn. I think this is the spirit of the thing that Ras is talking about.

Below is the inspiration for the Memoir '44 series:
http://www.daysofwonder.com/memoir44/en/content/history/

Quote:

Memoir '44 was born following the meeting of the noted game designer Richard Borg, Days of Wonder, and the Mission for the 60th Anniversary of the Landings and Liberation of France

Richard Borg had designed a WWII game using his Command and Colors Game System, which he had already used in the past for his famous Battlecry game (a game about the US Civil War), and was looking for a game publisher. Days of Wonder was interested, and discussions were already under way, when the Mission for the 60th Anniversary came in and accerelated the process.

The main idea was to design a game that would convey the memory of the D-Day events to the younger generation. The challenge was to build something that would be simple for young people, but not simplistic. The game had to be historically accurate, and fun to play. Only the game system developed by Richard could achieve all these goals.

The result is an exceptional game that will please children, parents and grand-parents, who will be able to share together the memory of History.


[Aktualisiert am: Sat, 13 October 2012 16:42]

      
kissmarci
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Re:What would you like for the 10th Anniversary of Memoir44? Sat, 13 October 2012 22:39
Sayburr wrote on Fri, 05 October 2012 22:11

A hardbacked book with every scenario (updated to latest version if a scenario has more than one version) in it. This book would also tie together older scenarios into campaigns.


Very much agree!!!
      
ad79
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Re:What would you like for the 10th Anniversary of Memoir44? Sat, 13 October 2012 22:51
I think the ease of play that Memoir is partly accheived by having a forced setup like we have now. And it does ensure that we play with the troops mostly as they historically started the battle.

But

I think allowing the player to set up troops on a historical battlefield is just giving us players control a bit earlier in the battle. I think a scenario like "Breakthrough to Gembloux" from the Campaign bag would work well with a system like this. Allied sets up first on or behind hexrow 13(not sure which hexrow tje foremost Allied unit ison now), then the German side sets up on the first two hexrows on it's side.
Combat Commanders uses this system for it's historical scenarios
      
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Re:What would you like for the 10th Anniversary of Memoir44? Sun, 14 October 2012 21:00
rasmussen81 wrote on Sat, 13 October 2012 09:22


I'm sure that if you guys figure out a way to deploy troops before the battle begins, you'll have a great time and it might even make Memoir '44 more enjoyable for you. However, I believe that by taking away the historical placement of the troops, you're removing a large part of the history.

You might say, "But the terrain is still the same!" True...but the battle will go from, "This battle really took place and we have a chance to put ourselves in the shoes of Rommel and Patton" to, "This is a real place and we get to fight this battle." In my opinion, you're losing a big part of what makes Memoir so great.



I think we all enjoy the historical aspect of the game. And each different WWII game or scenario models history to differing degrees and from different viewpoints. None of this is set in stone, not even for Memoir '44. We can sometimes stray from the straight and narrow path, in fact, its healthy.

Taking away the "historical" placement of troops of course "removes" some of the history. But that's the whole point. We can only get closer to the actual situation Rommel and Patton faced by making some of the deployment decisions ourselves. To me that is more accurately living the history of WWII. Its a choice between living WWII history in the game as a private or a general. It would be nice to have both options. Some of us are gamers first and then historians. Memoir '44 is only one of the hundreds of board games I play. When I play war games I often like complete control.

BTW, I placed the word "historical" in quotes because these scenarios are merely interpretations of historical accounts that are themselves interpretations of what actually happened.

But honestly, the flexibility of the Memoir '44 system and the ability to model just about every historical land battle is probably the reason for its success. And I almost exclusively play historical scenarios (partly because thats all that is available). So, I understand and respect your viewpoint.

And I probably wouldn't play an imaginary scenario outside of the kind of campaign system we are talking about. Because what we are talking about is an intepretation of history from the campaign level as a high-level commander. To me that is an equally important viewpoint of history and a different kind of learning experience.

[Aktualisiert am: Sun, 14 October 2012 21:09]

      
rasmussen81
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Re:What would you like for the 10th Anniversary of Memoir44? Sun, 14 October 2012 22:06
You're absolutely right, Sgt. Storm, that History is a relative term and we're all playing a variation of it through a Western lens. And if any game can handle changes on the scale you guys are talking about, it's Memoir '44. Very Happy

Originally this thread was about what we think will happen for the 10th Anniversary of Memoir '44 that Richard Borg has hinted at. I would be surprised if he took the game the direction of players placing their own armies, but I've never been disappointed with an expansion that he created (I even liked the Air Pack as it is) and if Richard developed this kind of system I'm sure I would enjoy it.

If players are modifying the game like this, I think it's a great idea and probably a very exciting project for them! As long as they're having fun, I think it's a great idea and I hope they're able to work out all the details. Very Happy
      
Sgt Storm
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Re:What would you like for the 10th Anniversary of Memoir44? Mon, 15 October 2012 01:03
rasmussen81 wrote on Sun, 14 October 2012 16:06

Originally this thread was about what we think will happen for the 10th Anniversary of Memoir '44 that Richard Borg has hinted at ... <snip>


Excellent point. Sorry for hijacking the thread. Embarassed

Now, back to the original subject.

      
OldBloodandGuts
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Re:What would you like for the 10th Anniversary of Memoir44? Mon, 15 October 2012 17:20
Interesting discussion on the historicity of the game, folks. Most of what I would say has been said by Stevens and others. One thing I would add is that if you've designed and play-tested scenarios, you know that troop deployment plays a critical role in getting a scenario to play historically.

By "playing historically," I mean that the historic winner of the battle wins more often than not. I don't think scenarios need to be "balanced" (ie., both sides have an equal chance to win) to be fun. Quite the opposite.

Imagine, for example, that we were making a Memoir-at-Sea game that recreated the attack on Pearl Harbor. Of course everyone would want as the American side to have the battleships and capital ships spread out and in defensive positions, and possibly to have the American carriers within striking distance for defense and/or retaliation. But to reposition the battleships and carriers before the battle is to change fundamentally the battle itself.

Of course, I understand that history isn't important for some -- they have toy soldiers, and they want to play with em, dangit! I don't see the harm in creating a system that lets those players scratch that itch. I would just suggest divorcing that system from historical scenarios.

To return to the issue of the OP, I would like to see a campaign system that allows for simple unit promotions, based on experience. Categories of experience for troops -- green, experienced, veteran, and crack, for example, though this list could be grown or shrunk -- could provide slight but distinct differences in how they act in the field.

For example, I've created scenarios where green units (Americans in early N. Africa) have to treat stars rolled against them as flags. Or it would be great if you had to decide during a scenario if you want to use an elite unit to plug up a hole and risk losing it for the rest of the campaign; or to watch one of your green units become a veteran unit by the end of a campaign. Just a couple ideas.
      
player1006796
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Re:What would you like for the 10th Anniversary of Memoir44? Thu, 18 October 2012 21:59
A complete rule book, including rules from all expansions.
      
Almilcar
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Re:What would you like for the 10th Anniversary of Memoir44? Fri, 19 October 2012 18:38
To sum up. This is what we all have said so far:

Almilcar


- New battlemaps, to commemorate the 10 years of the game, and
- A special edition of the core game having British Troops (European Front) with its specific armor/artillery units and German Late War Infantry, for example, (or any other type of German Infantry units, different from those included in the vanilla 2004 game) with its specific armor/artillery units as well, providing a new full set of scenarios.


rasmussen81


Remote control figures!


Quit2


- All existing units, terrain, actions, combat cards, ... being supported by the online game and the editor.
Breakthrough and Overlord for the online game.
- A way to filter out sftf scenarios in the online game based on your personal rating. E.G. All scenarios I personally rated 1 star, all those I rated 2 stars


bdgza


- I like the idea of an updated base game. I only have 1 base game, and could use an updated game with new components/scenarios to combine with my original game. As long as the board and tiles would still be compatible.


50th


- A Pacific battlemap featuring light Stuart II tanks and Pacific combat cards


sniperscout


- Italian infantry figs and tanks
- French tanks and artillery models
- Overlord Card Deck as separate item
- Pacific theme combat card


Achtung Panzer


- Late war British Inf, Art and Armour
- Early war French Art and Armour


Nordiskanc


- More Overlord scenarios,
- an Overlord Campaign book,
- Italian army pack (not white but in their own color), and
- etched dice.


Sgt Storm


- An Italian oriented expansion would be nice
- a campaign system that is more than just a handful of normal scenarios strung together.
- a naval-oriented pacific expansion with various coastline tiles, gunships etc.
- more modular boards (without the victory medal track etc.) so I can build any size map I want
- more breakthrough scenarios


Almilcar


well it looks like a 10th anniversary base game with:

- Allies: British Units (Western Front)
- Axis: Italian Units

backwards compatible and with new scenarios sounds cool!


OldBloodandGuts


- I'd like to see a mild alteration of the game where the special abilities are detached from their respective nations and assigned to specific units (regardless of nation) on a scenario (or campaign) basis.


Leutnat Michel


- A new set of 8 plastic dices, while the original dices loses their color


sniperscout


- As others have said etched dice would also be a great addition


Dietrich von Kleist


- I would like new German army miniatures.


Achtung Panzer


- What about Flamethrower SWA? Same rules as Flamethrower tanks but a once-only use, then treat as normal Infantry.

Thanks to my son for the idea.


Dietrich von Kleist


- A card named something like "espionage" that allows a player to look at the adversaries command cards.


Sgt Storm


- Well, what I said. Something more substantial that actually requires campaign level choices, such as allocation of troops, (e.g., setting up defensive positions or building up forces for attack), resources and reserves. Right now campaign is really just the same game played multiple times tallying the score.


Sayburr


- A hardbacked book with every scenario (updated to latest version if a scenario has more than one version) in it.


ad79


- A proper D-day campaign with several scenarios for each beach that incorporates the huge variety of units, rules and terrain now available. Hopefully this will be offered as standard, BT and Overlord.
- More campaigns for the various theaters and battles. Italy, Market-Garden, Operation Bagration etc, etc.
- More themed packs like Winter Wars. Jungle, Dessert etc, Market-Garden, Iwo Jima
- More Battle maps with BT and standard scenarios included. If campaign rules for the overlord scenarios were include it would be awesome.
- Another thing I would like to see is something GMT did in it's last C3i issue for it'sC&C: Ancients game. There Richard Borg and Ken Duke each designed an overlord battle covering the same battle. Imagine how cool it would be to see Richard, Jacques, Don and a few others tackle the same battle and see how their design philosophies made the scenarios different. It has been done with Sword Beach in the BT kit(Richard and Jacques).
- Monte Cassino or Omaha Beach in overlord form would be cool. Guys, are you up for it?


player1006796


- A complete rule book, including rules from all expansions.



"Random deployment vs History Accuracy"

Besides, there is a very interesting debate regarding a new campaign mode, where the players are responsible in the deployment of their troops before startating the game.

Hopefully someone at DoW is reading this thread
      
Flemish_Havy
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Re:What would you like for the 10th Anniversary of Memoir44? Sat, 20 October 2012 14:35
Since we have lots off new figs and units in the last expansions, it could be a good idea to pimp the existing scenarios with them, so we can make use off all those goodies, like SWA, TD, Screeming meemies, Mobile Arty, Tiger, ... .

/-> Make this a fat ass realy thick Campaigns book !
Also a "guideline how to implement them to the existing scenarios, in a way that that they don t tilt the scenario around. "

- GERMAN Mobile Arty figures
- ALLIED TD figs
- Italian infantry figs and tanks.
- French tanks and artillery models ( Can also be used for Belgians)
- More diffrent ARMOR FIGS vechicles for all sides.

- AnZac scenarios and campaign
- Polish - Canadians campaign against the Germans in Europe
- Polish Russian scenarios and campaign

- Revived AIRRULES and coresponding figures.
      
jfardette
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Re:What would you like for the 10th Anniversary of Memoir44? Sat, 20 October 2012 16:18
Anyone up for a France 1940 Campaign? Or even a French/Free French expansion?

I do like the idea of some kind of control over the initial card draw. Magic The Gathering has mulligan rules and is better for it. Dice are meant to be random, but to watch your side melt away without even the chance to move them takes some of the fun factor out of the game. No one likes to get butchered.

And my personal favorite: Memoir Zombie Apocalypse. Take the zombie figs from another game. They move forward mindlessly looking for brains, close assault only. Unlimited reinforcements, gradually increasing. How long can you last? Score attack game, total figures killed. History fans, you might want to sit this one out.
      
JFKoski
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Re:What would you like for the 10th Anniversary of Memoir44? Sun, 21 October 2012 05:12
I don't know what the relative sales figures were for the base game vs. expansions: for every 100 base games sold, what # Terrain Pack, # Eastern, # Pacific, # Mediterranean sold, etc.? So I can't speak for updating base game and existing packs. I don't think I'd buy another copy of Terrain Pack for instance, even if it had more scenarios that use the rules in it. Since it looks like they put all the scenarios from East, Pacific, and Med in the Online game, wouldn't that supress future sales of these expansions?

It would have been better if they'd made a proper Overlord Expansion, where the cards, battle maps, figures, extra board(s) were all put together in one box. The Overlord deck has Pincer, Recon-in-Force, and General Advance as Section cards, but I thought the rules say they count as Tactics cards in Overlord (limit 1). Sloppy.
(1) I wanted a super-Overlord set, but bought 2 battle maps already. So...?

I do like the idea someone had of selling the reference card deck separately now that Air Pack is out of print. I use mine a lot, so I'd recommend it. Would they sell Breakthrough Deck and Urban Decks separately? I like those, but already have them.

I haven't got the Equipment Pack yet, but that covers new miniatures.
(2) I did want amphibious vehicles and tanks that break into the hedgerows. But I guess you could do a scenario-specific rule for these (e.g. certain tanks treat the hedgerow tile as a forest).

I imagine that Campaign Books (I don't have them) are how we can expect to see new scenarios. I did play the Vercors campaign once. I'd like it if they put out a new scenarios/campaign book that also had some new tiles.
(3) I want proper cliff tiles, where the hill defense only applies from one side: between hill and beach.
(4) I'd like some ocean tiles, to make bays or to put the ocean and beach on the left or right section. This might de-rectangle the board for some scenarios. It could be interesting to have a destroyer or carrier somewhere other than baseline.
(5) The Operation Market Garden Overlord Battle Map scenario has 2 extra rows. I'd like having a piece that you clip on to either side of your regular board to expand distance between baselines. This would also have extra medal spots for scenarios that exceed 6 medals. What would you name scenarios that utilize this size board?
(6) I think someone mentioned some scenarios have units in vulnerable places. They could add a rule where the person who goes 2nd can move one unit back to their baseline, before the start.
(7) Reading the simplified campaign rules, I'm not too keen on all the pre-game hits you get to inflict. I did like getting an extra unit in Vercors for winning the previous. So letting the winner start with the Reinforcements card from Urban or Winter decks (or equivalent) seems better.
(8) I forgot we need a couple new Air Power cards. One for Winter Weather: (both sides roll 1 die); one for Air Superiority (Axis 2d, Allies 1d). There could be a reference card that states when (what years) to use Air Superiority, when to use equivalent (1d each for winter or 2d each for Breakthrough's Air Power), and when to use the standard (1944 I presume). I think I'd rather use an Air Superiority Air Power card for 1940, than say Allies must discard Air Power.

(9) Ditto to fixing the Online game. I've listed a number of errors with the official scenarios, and a hundred or so rules not available or that don't work in SFTF. I'm not buying any more GI credits until at least the official scenarios are fixed.
(10) I do think they need to create a new tab for official-expert scenarios. They can move those scenarios (mostly Med) that don't count towards promotion there. Then they'd put new ones they make available there too. Only Experts could play them.

Pardon me if this is too long. I wanted to clarify my wish list to things I'd actually pay for.

[Aktualisiert am: Sun, 21 October 2012 05:30]

      
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