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VerfasserThema
50th
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Re:General stevens Rules Quiz No.4 Sun, 03 February 2013 13:02
stevens wrote on Sat, 02 February 2013 16:58

50th wrote on Sat, 02 February 2013 16:29

I was typing while thinking and didn't read the whole question until after I had already started typing. I should have re-edited my responses, but wanted to be the first to respond. Embarassed




Hey its just a game for fun so don't throw yourself on your sword just yet.
You did get the WADIS GULLIES correct and you wrote Ravines but you didn't explain why.
Just let us know why you think Ravines are an issue and feel free to guess two more. How about that.


Ravines Terrain Card #50 impassable to armor and artillery!

      
stevens
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Re:General stevens Rules Quiz No.4 Sun, 03 February 2013 13:53
50th wrote on Sun, 03 February 2013 07:02


Ravines Terrain Card #50 impassable to armor and artillery!



Bravo, so the armor may succeed in the battle but then is unable to take ground.

Good show.
      
JJAZ
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Re:General stevens Rules Quiz No.4 Mon, 04 February 2013 07:19
Also if you use the winter wars deck you could play a card with an asterix and don't take a flag, so no overrun or taking terrain
Laughing Laughing Laughing
      
stevens
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Re:General stevens Rules Quiz No.4 Mon, 04 February 2013 15:45
JJAZ wrote on Mon, 04 February 2013 01:19

Also if you use the winter wars deck you could play a card with an asterix and don't take a flag, so no overrun or taking terrain
Laughing Laughing Laughing


I am presuming friend that you are talking about the person being attacked using the "IGNORE ONE FLAG" rule with the Bitter Resistance to prevent retreat and ultimately the Armor from taking ground to battle again.

You have a GREAT point just like the guys who suggested the play of the AMBUSH card itself. However, consider the original question:

I can think of many different situations where an Armor Unit after an initial successful CLOSE ASSAULT does NOT get to TAKE GROUND and attack again. Almost ALL of these situations are due to Terrain restrictions. So list up to four distinct situations where this occurs in battle and be sure to mention the Terrain that caused the problem.

The question is about TERRAIN and how it effects the taking ground not how the play of a certain card effects it. So unfortunately, no points for this one, but you still get 4 more terrain guesses. Have at it!
      
rasmussen81
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Re:General stevens Rules Quiz No.4 Tue, 05 February 2013 08:06
Stevens, it might help people figure out which answers have not been used if you posted a list of the answers so far. Then people can start looking (or thinking) through Terrain and figure out the last few examples. Cool
      
stevens
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Re:General stevens Rules Quiz No.4 Tue, 05 February 2013 13:33
rasmussen81 wrote on Tue, 05 February 2013 02:06

Stevens, it might help people figure out which answers have not been used if you posted a list of the answers so far. Then people can start looking (or thinking) through Terrain and figure out the last few examples. Cool


Roger that, I had the same idea, so I will post the answers so far given in an edit to this post later today.

Okay guys and gals here are ALL the answers given so far.

1. HEDGEROW (stevens) - Armor may only take ground if it begins adjacent and so any movement before battling eliminates the possibility of taking ground.

These following terrains restrict armor movement because once the armor unit moves into this terrain it can move no further on that turn. Hence, no taking ground:

2. MINEFIELD (Quit2)
3. WIRE (ad79)
4. FORDABLE RIVER (sam1812)
5. FORD (Zalamence)
6. ERG/RIDGES (Quit2)

These following terrains are IMPASSABLE to Armor, so once the Armor eliminates or retreats the enemy unit, it cannot take ground because it may not enter this terrain:

7. ROAD BLOCKS (Jaykay2010)
8. CITY RUINS (Jaykay2010)
9. HEDGEHOG (Jaykay2010)
10. BUNKER (Jaykay2010)
11. FIELD BUNKER (Quit 2)
12. FORTRESSES (Quit2)
13. CAVE ON A HILL (sam1812)
14. CAVE ON A MOUNTAIN (sam1812)
15. MOUNTAIN (sam1812)
16. DRAGONS TEETH (sam1812)
17. ABATIS (Zalamence)
18. ROPE BRIDGE (Zalamence)

And now for some more unusual ones.

19. BALKAS (ad79) allow battling on entry and exit, however, the move no further rule comes into play if you enter or exit. So an Armor moving into OR out of a Balka may battle but not take ground.

20. CLIFFS & SEA BLUFFS (ad79) an Armor may attack adjacent enemy units but may not take ground up ONTO a Cliff or Sea Bluff, it also may not take ground DOWN from one of these.

21. WADIS/GULLIES (50th) an armor unit may battle a unit in a Wadi/Gullies or out of one if adjacent. However, if the adjacent unit is on one of the 4 impassable sides of a Wadi/Gullie then that stops further movement and no taking ground.

22. RIVERS (Zalamence) if a unit in a Collapible Boat is on the River and attacked and eliminated by an adjacent Armor unit, the Armor may not enter the vacant River hex and thus cannot take ground.

23. PIERS (ad79) if an Armor unit was on a Pier adjacent to a hex with another Pier, it could eliminate the opposing unit, but since it cannot move from Pier to Pier, it could not take ground.

So 5-6 examples remaining to the best of my knowledge.
The above examples should give you some clues to the remaining terrains.

[Aktualisiert am: Tue, 05 February 2013 16:07]

      
stevens
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Re:General stevens Rules Quiz No.4 Thu, 07 February 2013 21:20
Okay guys and gals, I will be posting the remaining answers to this quiz tomorrow morning. So I am waiving the guess limitation and let's see if you all can come up with the last ones.

GO FOR IT! Surprised Shocked Laughing
      
Quit2
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Re:General stevens Rules Quiz No.4 Thu, 07 February 2013 22:32
When the armor is on terrain from which it cannot move off, like fortress and field bunker. When it attacks and makes a unit retreat or kills it, it cannot gain ground because it cannot leave the fortress or field bunker.

That is not the same as not being able to enter it.
      
Quit2
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Re:General stevens Rules Quiz No.4 Thu, 07 February 2013 22:37
When the tank moves next to a flooded field, and kills a unit in the flooded field, it cannot move in since it had to be adjacent at the start of the turn to move into flooded field.

Question to which I don't know the answer: can one gain ground into the ocean?
      
Quit2
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Re:General stevens Rules Quiz No.4 Thu, 07 February 2013 22:47
If a bridge is only accessible from a certain hex (like in arnhem bridge), and the tank kills a unit in close combat from another hex, it cannot gain ground because it cannot enter the bridge.
      
stevens
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Re:General stevens Rules Quiz No.4 Thu, 07 February 2013 23:07
Quit2 wrote on Thu, 07 February 2013 16:32

When the armor is on terrain from which it cannot move off, like fortress and field bunker. When it attacks and makes a unit retreat or kills it, it cannot gain ground because it cannot leave the fortress or field bunker.

That is not the same as not being able to enter it.


I would say this is sort of backward logic. Actually, the armor may not enter these hexes and so if it eliminates a unit in either one it may not take ground.
FORTRESS
FIELD BUNKER
but for the somewhat opposite reason that you mentioned, because according to the rules an armor unit could not be in them to begin with.

So I am sorry to say not a correct answer for the reason you stated.

[Aktualisiert am: Thu, 07 February 2013 23:26]

      
stevens
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Re:General stevens Rules Quiz No.4 Thu, 07 February 2013 23:19
Quit2 wrote on Thu, 07 February 2013 16:37

When the tank moves next to a flooded field, and kills a unit in the flooded field, it cannot move in since it had to be adjacent at the start of the turn to move into flooded field.



Actually there is no limitation to moving, attacking a unit in close assault in a FLOODED FIELD and then taking ground. Look at the card. Bullet point #5.

http://static.memoir44.com/lang/english/images/mm_compendium_terrain_23.jpg

You are confusing this with the HEDGEROW hex which specifically states on the card "To enter or take ground,unit must start its move from adjacent hex".

http://static.memoir44.com/lang/english/images/mm_compendium_terrain_4.jpg

So in reality, you may not MOVE on your movement phase INTO a FLOODED FIELD if you are not in an adjacent hex. However, you may move adjacent to a unit on a FLOODED FIELD hex and battle and TAKE GROUND INTO the FLOODED FIELD if you are successful. A small distinction, but a distinction nonetheless.

[Aktualisiert am: Thu, 07 February 2013 23:19]

      
stevens
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Re:General stevens Rules Quiz No.4 Thu, 07 February 2013 23:21
Quit2 wrote on Thu, 07 February 2013 16:37


Question to which I don't know the answer: can one gain ground into the ocean?



Yes, I wouldn't recommend it. But possible. The only limitation to moving regarding an OCEAN is that you may NOT RETREAT into it.

http://static.memoir44.com/lang/english/images/mm_compendium_terrain_7.jpg
      
stevens
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Re:General stevens Rules Quiz No.4 Thu, 07 February 2013 23:25
Quit2 wrote on Thu, 07 February 2013 16:47

If a bridge is only accessible from a certain hex (like in arnhem bridge), and the tank kills a unit in close combat from another hex, it cannot gain ground because it cannot enter the bridge.


Yes, Arnhem Bridge scenario.

The special rules of that scenario limit entry to BRIDGE from the hexes at the ends of the BRIDGE and so a special exception based on a scenario.

BRIDGE, good job.

5 more to go

[Aktualisiert am: Thu, 07 February 2013 23:35]

      
stevens
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Re:General stevens Rules Quiz No.4 Fri, 08 February 2013 04:52
And the final 5 answers I had:

Armor moves into an OASIS and attacks an adjacent hex from the OASIS. There is no battle limitations on entering an OASIS hex, however, you may move no further once you enter. So a successful attack will not lead to taking ground.

Armor moves into a RADAR STATION and attacks an adjacent hex from the RADAR STATION. There is no battle limitations on entering a RADAR STATION hex, however, you may move no further once you enter. So a successful attack will not lead to taking ground.

Armor attacks a unit on a BRIDGE from an adjacent BRIDGE, however, an Armor unit may not move between parallel BRIDGES and so no taking ground.

An armor unit may make a successful close assault on a unit in a DAM hex, but it may not take ground because a DAM is impassable terrain to Armor.

In CB #2 on p.77 is a scenario titled HEL. In this scenario the designer substituted RIVER, LAKE and .WATERWAY hexes to represent an area where a Destroyer is able to maneuver adjacent to open terrain hexes. Should an Armor unit attack the adjacent Detroyer and eliminate it, the Armor unit could not take ground into the RIVER, LAKE, or WATERWAY hexes. And so it is possible that a LAKE prevents taking ground.

I really didn't want to end this quiz talking about DAMs and HEL, but I guess it was inevitable.
Laughing Shocked Rolling Eyes

I hope you enjoyed learning as much as I did and especially in thinking about all the possibilities. So although armor is an awesome weapon it obviously has some limitations.
      
Quit2
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Re:General stevens Rules Quiz No.4 Fri, 08 February 2013 10:06
stevens wrote on Thu, 07 February 2013 23:07

Quit2 wrote on Thu, 07 February 2013 16:32

When the armor is on terrain from which it cannot move off, like fortress and field bunker. When it attacks and makes a unit retreat or kills it, it cannot gain ground because it cannot leave the fortress or field bunker.

That is not the same as not being able to enter it.


I would say this is sort of backward logic. Actually, the armor may not enter these hexes and so if it eliminates a unit in either one it may not take ground.
FORTRESS
FIELD BUNKER
but for the somewhat opposite reason that you mentioned, because according to the rules an armor unit could not be in them to begin with.

So I am sorry to say not a correct answer for the reason you stated.

there is an official scenario where two russian tanks start the game in a field bunker. In thatbscenario, an ennemy unit can move adjacent to it. The tank can shoot at it but cannot gain ground because the tank is not allowed to leave the bunker. I think at least the field bunker should be accepted as a correct answer, because the tank canbe in them to start the game.
      
sam1812
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Re:General stevens Rules Quiz No.4 Fri, 08 February 2013 13:25
Quit2 wrote on Fri, 08 February 2013 04:06

there is an official scenario where two russian tanks start the game in a field bunker. In thatbscenario, an ennemy unit can move adjacent to it. The tank can shoot at it but cannot gain ground because the tank is not allowed to leave the bunker. I think at least the field bunker should be accepted as a correct answer, because the tank canbe in them to start the game.

Yes. At Bug River, two tanks start in Field Bunkers. And at Le Havre (EP #7), a German tank starts in a regular bunker. I have a feeling there may be additional examples that I'm not thinking of at the moment.
      
stevens
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Re:General stevens Rules Quiz No.4 Fri, 08 February 2013 13:35
Quit2 wrote on Fri, 08 February 2013 04:06

stevens wrote on Thu, 07 February 2013 23:07

Quit2 wrote on Thu, 07 February 2013 16:32

When the armor is on terrain from which it cannot move off, like fortress and field bunker. When it attacks and makes a unit retreat or kills it, it cannot gain ground because it cannot leave the fortress or field bunker.

That is not the same as not being able to enter it.


I would say this is sort of backward logic. Actually, the armor may not enter these hexes and so if it eliminates a unit in either one it may not take ground.
FORTRESS
FIELD BUNKER
but for the somewhat opposite reason that you mentioned, because according to the rules an armor unit could not be in them to begin with.

So I am sorry to say not a correct answer for the reason you stated.

there is an official scenario where two russian tanks start the game in a field bunker. In thatbscenario, an ennemy unit can move adjacent to it. The tank can shoot at it but cannot gain ground because the tank is not allowed to leave the bunker. I think at least the field bunker should be accepted as a correct answer, because the tank canbe in them to start the game.


Yes, you are correct. In the BUG RIVER scenario there are dug in armor units in bunkers. However, these units are not allowed to move regardless of the circumstances and it is the nature of the rules regarding the armor and not the actual terrain which creates the limitation to take ground.

p.47 FAQ
Quote:

Q. Can the Russian Armor in the bunkers in the River Bug scenario move out of them, or are they treated like Artillery in bunker?
A. The Russian Armor in the field bunkers may not move out of the bunker. The Armor units in the bunkers may ignore the first Flag. If forced to retreat it cannot and the unit must lose a figure for each retreat it cannot complete.


So I see your point, but much like the AMBUSH card it is a different element (card play) and the quiz was about terrain limitations. So I give you kudos for effort. To be honest, we could possibly throw out any scenario with special rules where the NORMAL rules of how a terrain behaves or armor behaves are changed.

As an example:
Q When can an Armor unit enter a terrain hex occupied by a bunker?
A When a Churchill tank armed with a petard attacks an adjacent hex with a bunker and destroys the bunker, if the bunker hex is vacant (and the underlying terrain allows movement) the armor may take ground.

This ability is inherent only to the Churchill tank with a petard and under distinct circumstances where the STANDARD rules of an armor units ability to attack are altered. Is the entering a bunker rule violated - NO! What is altered is the ability of an armor unit to destroy a bunker. And since no bunker exists, it is only the underlying terrain now that comes into play.

I know you will say I am splitting hairs, but as a learning experience, especially for new players, I want to look at the standard rules for terrain as exhibited in the card compendium. I want new players to understand the limitations the terrain will have on their attacks so that they may play with more wisdom.

The good and great point you guys have made with these exceptions is that BEFORE YOU PLAY ANY SCENARIO - READ THE RULES.

Quote:

I can think of many different situations where an Armor Unit after an initial successful CLOSE ASSAULT does NOT get to TAKE GROUND and attack again. Almost ALL of these situations are due to Terrain restrictions. So list up to four distinct situations where this occurs in battle and be sure to mention the Terrain that caused the problem.


So FIELD BUNKERS were already in the list for moving INTO.
So again no on the moving out as this is a armor limitation and not a TERRAIN limitation.

Thank you ALL for playing. And I welcome any later additions to the list based on standard TERRAIN limitations.

[Aktualisiert am: Fri, 08 February 2013 14:17]

      
rasmussen81
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Re:General stevens Rules Quiz No.4 Fri, 08 February 2013 13:37
sam1812 wrote on Fri, 08 February 2013 16:25

Quit2 wrote on Fri, 08 February 2013 04:06

there is an official scenario where two russian tanks start the game in a field bunker. In thatbscenario, an ennemy unit can move adjacent to it. The tank can shoot at it but cannot gain ground because the tank is not allowed to leave the bunker. I think at least the field bunker should be accepted as a correct answer, because the tank canbe in them to start the game.

Yes. At Bug River, two tanks start in Field Bunkers. And at Le Havre (EP #7), a German tank starts in a regular bunker. I have a feeling there may be additional examples that I'm not thinking of at the moment.


Yes, there are several scenarios where tanks start in Bunkers. These are scenario-specific examples, but you're absolutely right that the Tanks can't Take Ground or Overrun when they start in a Bunker (or move, for that matter). Mainly this is because they are either cemented in place, buried, or the turret is in the Bunker without a body! Cool

[Aktualisiert am: Fri, 08 February 2013 14:24]

      
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