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Morgiliath
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A draw in a scenario Sun, 09 December 2012 14:25
Hi,
Richard Borg explained once that a draw in a scenario is possible only with kamikaze...
Well, yesterday I played Aiwan (the board game) and we had another one. That is, if we understood the rules correctly Smile

Scenario: Fire action at Singling (from Equipment Pack)
End of turn A: Axis 7 medals, Allies 6 medals.

In this scenario there are TWO majority TURN START medals possible.

One for UNCONTESTED CONTROL of four road hexes
One for MAJORITY of five towns

At the end of turn A, no medals for that are awarded, as
AXIS have two roads and two towns
ALLIES have two roads and two towns
one town is unoccupied

Then comes turn B
Allies move ONE unit FROM a town hex (counting), therefore reducing number of held towns to 1, and with this unit kill an AXIS unit holding a road hex (counting). ALLIES feared ambush, so they had to move out of town. So at this stage medals are 7-7.
BUT -
beginning of turn C
AXIS have ONE road and TWO towns
ALLIES have TWO roads and ONE town - therefore both sides simultaneously get one medal each, ending in an 8-8 draw.

Sounds bizzare, but that's what happened to our game yesterday. We spent 15 minutes analyzing this, and decided that it was indeed a draw.


We are not novices, we have in total around 3000 games online and 1000 board Smile and it was our first draw.

Can someone from DoW confirm that it was indeed a draw?
Will enclose pictures of the final situation.


[Aktualisiert am: Sun, 09 December 2012 14:39]

      
rasmussen81
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Re:A draw in a scenario Sun, 09 December 2012 14:35
I'm afraid I can't imagine what's going on here...pictures would help! Very Happy

My only thought, without looking anything up, is - if they are END OF TURN medals, do the medals count at the end of any turn or the end of the controlling player's turn? Basically, would the other side have a chance to recapture something before the end of their turn and upset the balance?

It does seem like a strange situation!! Cool
      
Morgiliath
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Re:A draw in a scenario Sun, 09 December 2012 14:39
They were basically TURN START medals, so at the beginning of turn C both sides were awarded a medal each...


http://i.imgbox.com/abuHi4tX.jpg


AL - Allied controlled sites
AX - Axis controlled sites

red arrow - direction the Allied unit moved
circled German commando - the unfortunate victim of fire

http://i.imgbox.com/abfbonr3.jpg

[Aktualisiert am: Sun, 09 December 2012 14:57]

      
sam1812
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Re:A draw in a scenario Sun, 09 December 2012 16:01
Morgiliath wrote on Sun, 09 December 2012 08:25

beginning of turn C
AXIS have ONE road and TWO towns
ALLIES have TWO roads and ONE town - therefore both sides simultaneously get one medal each, ending in an 8-8 draw.

Sounds bizzare, but that's what happened to our game yesterday. We spent 15 minutes analyzing this, and decided that it was indeed a draw.


You're saying that turn C was Axis. So Axis gets credit for the Turn Start medal. Allies can't get a Turn Start medal until turn D. Axis wins, 8-7.

Definition of Temporary Majority Medal Objective (Turn Start): "The Victory Medal for this group of objective hexes goes to the side that has units in an absolute majority of these hexes at the start of its turn. The medal is held through the turn as long as the side has absolute majority at the start of a turn. The medal is lost and placed back in play when a side no longer has absolute majority at the start of a turn."

[Aktualisiert am: Sun, 09 December 2012 16:03]

      
Almilcar
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Re:A draw in a scenario Sun, 09 December 2012 18:33
In my opinion, Sam is absolutely right here. Both sides can't gain a medal at Turn Start simultaneously.
      
JFKoski
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Re:A draw in a scenario Mon, 10 December 2012 02:43
I think that means you can lose the medal at your opponent's turn start, but you don't gain the medal until your turn start.
      
Morgiliath
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Re:A draw in a scenario Mon, 10 December 2012 16:05
Thanks for clarification. So Axis got the medal for Town Majority at the beginning of their turn, and Allies would get the Road Majority medal at the beginning of their turn, had they lasted...
      
rasmussen81
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Re:A draw in a scenario Mon, 10 December 2012 16:52
Morgiliath wrote on Mon, 10 December 2012 19:05

Thanks for clarification. So Axis got the medal for Town Majority at the beginning of their turn, and Allies would get the Road Majority medal at the beginning of their turn, had they lasted...



Yep, I agree with this look at it. Very Happy That's sort of how I thought it worked...

[Aktualisiert am: Mon, 10 December 2012 19:37]

      
Flemish_Havy
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Re:A draw in a scenario Tue, 11 December 2012 07:11
sam1812 wrote on Sun, 09 December 2012 16:01

Morgiliath wrote on Sun, 09 December 2012 08:25

beginning of turn C
AXIS have ONE road and TWO towns
ALLIES have TWO roads and ONE town - therefore both sides simultaneously get one medal each, ending in an 8-8 draw.

Sounds bizzare, but that's what happened to our game yesterday. We spent 15 minutes analyzing this, and decided that it was indeed a draw.


You're saying that turn C was Axis. So Axis gets credit for the Turn Start medal. Allies can't get a Turn Start medal until turn D. Axis wins, 8-7.

Definition of Temporary Majority Medal Objective (Turn Start): "The Victory Medal for this group of objective hexes goes to the side that has units in an absolute majority of these hexes at the start of its turn. The medal is held through the turn as long as the side has absolute majority at the start of a turn. The medal is lost and placed back in play when a side no longer has absolute majority at the start of a turn."


I agree totaly ! Cool

And at the same time i just our extremely contested endgame of an epic match, playing you Sam, at Singling, where i took the 'Temporary Medal' off the 'road crossing' and winning the match by 1 medal, because the game ended when you got the 'Turn start Majority Medal' for the towns.

A pleasure as always sir ! Very Happy
      
ad79
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Re:A draw in a scenario Tue, 11 December 2012 09:13
Not adding anything to the discussion, but just saying Turn Start opbjectives are an awesome feature in this game.

I think Richard and the other prominent scenario designers have used the various objective features in a fine way in the last couple of releases.
Invasion of Crete is a fine example of clever use of objectives.
      
Flemish_Havy
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Re:A draw in a scenario Tue, 11 December 2012 14:36
ad79 wrote on Tue, 11 December 2012 09:13

Not adding anything to the discussion, but just saying Turn Start opbjectives are an awesome feature in this game.

I think Richard and the other prominent scenario designers have used the various objective features in a fine way in the last couple of releases.
Invasion of Crete is a fine example of clever use of objectives.


Crete, Great scenarios sir !
      
Turboheizer
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Re:A draw in a scenario Fri, 18 January 2013 12:05
Quote:

Richard Borg explained once that a draw in a scenario is possible only with kamikaze.


Talking about possible draws, it seems as if a tie is very much possible indeed.

Using the example of "Gap at Antelat", let's assume that the British player has earned four medals by his units leaving the board via the exit markers while the German player has earned five medals by killing five enemy units. This leaves a single British unit on the map, and if it also exits the board, both players would be stuck with five medals and no possibility of earning the required sixth and seventh one.

This stalemate could only be described as a draw, do you agree?
      
sam1812
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Re:A draw in a scenario Fri, 18 January 2013 13:41
I'd describe it as a "flaw." Smile
      
Quit2
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Re:A draw in a scenario Fri, 18 January 2013 14:52
I also see this as a flaw in scenario design.
The scenario designer should make sure that there is always a way to get enough medals to win, even if some units exit. This could be achieved by putting some objective tokens on the board for the side that cannot exit. You can put them somewhere where they are very hard to obtain. But once all the opposition is gone, the remaining units could slowly walk towards the objectives and take the victory.
      
Turboheizer
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Re:A draw in a scenario Fri, 18 January 2013 15:37
Maybe jdrommel made a mistake by allowing a possible draw in this scenario (which is in no way discreditable to him, considering the incredible amount of scenarios he has created). I just wanted to show that a tie IS generally possible if the scenario setup doesn't prevent it.

In "Maleme Airfied", Richard Borg did this by adding an medal objective for the defending player. Another option would be to increase the number of units on the board so that enough potential targets remain even after the exit of others.

(If n is the number of units of the exiting player and m is the number of medals required, n-(m-1)>m must be fulfilled to prevent a possible draw.)
      
JFKoski
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Re:A draw in a scenario Sat, 16 February 2013 21:20
I found another way to get a tie score in SFTF.

Set an exit marker for one side in a section, then check that section for "Medal Condition: Empty Section Condition" for the other side. (Like in that Pacific scenario, Sugar Loaf and Half Moon). When the one side gets their winning medal for having their last guy in that section exit, the other side gets their medal at the same time for empty section. So the score will be tied, but the win credit seems to go to the player that exited.

There was a time when tie score would show up in your officer career twice, once for one side and once for the other, but that seems to have been fixed.
      
rasmussen81
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Re:A draw in a scenario Sun, 17 February 2013 03:02
JFKoski wrote on Sun, 17 February 2013 00:20

I found another way to get a tie score in SFTF.

Set an exit marker for one side in a section, then check that section for "Medal Condition: Empty Section Condition" for the other side. (Like in that Pacific scenario, Sugar Loaf and Half Moon). When the one side gets their winning medal for having their last guy in that section exit, the other side gets their medal at the same time for empty section. So the score will be tied, but the win credit seems to go to the player that exited.

There was a time when tie score would show up in your officer career twice, once for one side and once for the other, but that seems to have been fixed.


The reason the win seems to go to the player that exited is because the game is technically over in instant that unit leaves the board. It's good that the Online version stays true to the board game in this respect. Smile
      
5 star general
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Re:A draw in a scenario Sun, 17 February 2013 22:10
Why not just count up the number of minis killed and add them to the number of medals?
      
stevens
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Re:A draw in a scenario Mon, 18 February 2013 01:26
5 star general wrote on Sun, 17 February 2013 16:10

Why not just count up the number of minis killed and add them to the number of medals?


Simple and elegant.
      
5 star general
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Re:A draw in a scenario Mon, 18 February 2013 21:26
Thank you Stevens.
Sometimes the simple answer is the best.
      
5 star general
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Re:A draw in a scenario Mon, 18 February 2013 21:29
Thank you Stevens.
Sometimes the simplest answer is the best.
      
    
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