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Quit2
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D-Day landings - Landing craft with armour question Sun, 27 July 2014 12:01
When a landing craft carrying an armour unit lands on a shoreline hex with barbed wire, and drops off the armour, does the barbed wire get removed?

We were not entirely sure about this, since it's the landing craft that moves on the hex, and not the armour. Only after the landing craft arrived on the hex, it dissolves and leaves just the armour behind.

On the other side, when armour rides out of a landing craft, it should crush the barbed wire just as much as when it rides through the scenery.
      
--JP
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Re:D-Day landings - Landing craft with armour question Sun, 27 July 2014 16:03
Armor removes wire as part of the battle phase, when capable of battling. (Looking at the 3rd bullet of the Wire FAQ.) The newly landed armor can neither move nor attack the turn it lands.

LC is removed upon landing (LC is armor, but has no attack.)

So, my opinion, is that LC can drop off armor in a wire hex, but neither the act of the LC entering the hex, nor the landing of the armor is enough to remove the wire.

I am sure there are other learned gentlemen who will chime in.



      
stevens
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Re:D-Day landings - Landing craft with armour question Sun, 27 July 2014 19:54
--JP wrote on Sun, 27 July 2014 10:03

Armor removes wire as part of the battle phase, when capable of battling. (Looking at the 3rd bullet of the Wire FAQ.)

Unfortunately, I must disagree.
Armor may remove wire as part of the movement phase. An armor that moves into a hex with wire removes the wire and may not move any further on that turn. The Armor does not have to battle or even have the ability to battle when entering the wire hex. An Armor retreating onto a wire hex does not remove the wire because retreating is a defensive move.
So, I could argue that since movement happens when the LC arrives onshore in the offensive phase, that the wire could be removed as the Armor lands on the beach.
Consider for a second how you would play it if the Armor unit moved directly from the first row of OCEAN hexes onto a beach hex with a wire. Wouldn't you just remove the wire? This all seems logical. However, there is an LC involved in the transition and I have been around long enough to know that what seems logical is not always how the rules fall out. So let's see what the official ruling is down the road.

[Aktualisiert am: Sun, 27 July 2014 20:11]

      
Antoi
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Re:D-Day landings - Landing craft with armour question Sun, 27 July 2014 20:04
--JP wrote on Sun, 27 July 2014 16:03


LC is removed upon landing (LC is armor, but has no attack.)



Keep in mind though that a LC's is no armor as you said. It can only be ordered by a section card, a DHQ or a star from TFH.

[Aktualisiert am: Sun, 27 July 2014 20:05]

      
stevens
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Re:D-Day landings - Landing craft with armour question Sun, 27 July 2014 20:13
Antoi wrote on Sun, 27 July 2014 14:04

--JP wrote on Sun, 27 July 2014 16:03


LC is removed upon landing (LC is armor, but has no attack.)



Keep in mind though that a LC's is no armor as you said. It can only be ordered by a section card, a DHQ or a star from TFH.

A good point since it is the LC that is ORDERED and not the Armor unit itself, the pendulum swings the other way again.
      
--JP
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Re:D-Day landings - Landing craft with armour question Sun, 27 July 2014 20:25
First line of LCT202 in equipment pack:

"Landing Craft are treated as Armor for all purposes."
      
stevens
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Re:D-Day landings - Landing craft with armour question Sun, 27 July 2014 20:32
--JP wrote on Sun, 27 July 2014 14:25

First line of LCT202 in equipment pack:

"Landing Craft are treated as Armor for all purposes."

Good find JP! That may turn the tide back to removing wire.
However, it is not the Armor that removes the wire, but the LC.

It may also stir up the question about:
Can an LC be ordered with an Armor Assault card? HMMMMM

[Aktualisiert am: Sun, 27 July 2014 20:37]

      
--JP
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Re:D-Day landings - Landing craft with armour question Sun, 27 July 2014 20:50
armor removing wire..in the original rule book (page 16) lists the act of removing wire in the _battle_ section of the rules for wire (as opposed to the _movement_ section)
      
Antoi
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Re:D-Day landings - Landing craft with armour question Sun, 27 July 2014 22:49
--JP wrote on Sun, 27 July 2014 20:25

First line of LCT202 in equipment pack:

"Landing Craft are treated as Armor for all purposes."


Good find indeed.....
The problem is that the EP rules refere to the airpack rules with the LC's (there is no "new rule" or updated rule" icon)
In the airpack rules there is nothing that says a LC is treated as armor.

So If the EP rules apply to all expansions so far (and coming Cool ) the FAQ needs to be updated....

Back to on topic, according to the FAQ, removing wire is part of the battle phase
Quote:

Q. May an Armor unit that retreats onto a hex with Wire remove the Wire?
A. No. Look at the act of removing Wire by an Infantry or Armor unit as an offensive action. Therefore an Armor unit retreating
onto or through a hex with Wire will not remove the Wire. Note: If an Armor unit attacks out of Wire it had to retreat into, the Wire is removed after the attack. If an Armor unit simply moves out of Wire it had to retreat into, the Wire is not removed.


on the other hand:

Quote:

Q. If an Armor unit moves onto a hex with Wire, does it have to remove the Wire?
A. Yes.

[Aktualisiert am: Sun, 27 July 2014 22:53]

      
bdgza
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Re:D-Day landings - Landing craft with armour question Mon, 28 July 2014 09:18
Antoi wrote on Sun, 27 July 2014 22:49

Back to on topic, according to the FAQ, removing wire is part of the battle phase
Quote:

Q. May an Armor unit that retreats onto a hex with Wire remove the Wire?
A. No. Look at the act of removing Wire by an Infantry or Armor unit as an offensive action. Therefore an Armor unit retreating onto or through a hex with Wire will not remove the Wire. Note: If an Armor unit attacks out of Wire it had to retreat into, the Wire is removed after the attack. If an Armor unit simply moves out of Wire it had to retreat into, the Wire is not removed.



This only deals with the very specific case of retreats. If an armor retreated into a wire hex it's neither movement nor battling. If an amor then moves out it did not move into the wire hex, so it would not remove the wire. If an armor unit started it's turn in a wire hex but did not move it basically moved 0 into that hex. The wire should then be removed after not moving, before battling. In the end it doesn't matter if it is removed before you roll or after. I can't recall other rules for actions on terrain where a unit does not move into it or out of it. This is definitely a very specific exception for a unique case, and I don't think we can infer other rulings from it.
      
Antoi
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Re:D-Day landings - Landing craft with armour question Mon, 28 July 2014 09:35
Correct, but in this answer you see that removing wire is part of the battle phase. And that's the thing I wanted to explain Smile
      
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Re:D-Day landings - Landing craft with armour question Mon, 28 July 2014 09:46
Antoi wrote on Mon, 28 July 2014 09:35

Correct, but in this answer you see that removing wire is part of the battle phase. And that's the thing I wanted to explain Smile


It doesn't actually say it's part of the battle phase, it says to remove the wire after battling, which means it's not part of any regular phase. Because this is a weird and unique exception. I think it would be less confusing to explain this as the armor unit moving 0 (movement phase) to bring it in line with regular armor wire removal. The net result is the same as far as I can see.
      
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Re:D-Day landings - Landing craft with armour question Mon, 28 July 2014 10:08
Well, the difference would be that the wire is still there during the battle.

- Would the armour get -1 because of the wire? I know the wire card says "infantry battles at -1 die", but we've already got confirmation that artillery also battles out at -1. --Edit: or didn't we?--

- If the armour does a take ground in the battle, it will no longer be in the wire to remove it.

- if the armour were to be performing a move of 0 into wire to remove it, it wouldn't be allowed to take ground. If that armour doesn't move, and just fights from the wire, it's allowed to take ground.

So the net result is not the same.

[Aktualisiert am: Mon, 28 July 2014 10:10]

      
bdgza
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Re:D-Day landings - Landing craft with armour question Mon, 28 July 2014 11:10
Quit2 wrote on Mon, 28 July 2014 10:08

Well, the difference would be that the wire is still there during the battle.

- Would the armour get -1 because of the wire? I know the wire card says "infantry battles at -1 die", but we've already got confirmation that artillery also battles out at -1. --Edit: or didn't we?--

- If the armour does a take ground in the battle, it will no longer be in the wire to remove it.

- if the armour were to be performing a move of 0 into wire to remove it, it wouldn't be allowed to take ground. If that armour doesn't move, and just fights from the wire, it's allowed to take ground.

So the net result is not the same.


Yes, alright, that is not the same.

But:
Quote:

Note: If an Armor unit attacks out of Wire it had to retreat into, the Wire is removed after the attack.

Makes no mention of take ground or not. And it says after the attack to remove it anyway.
      
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Re:D-Day landings - Landing craft with armour question Mon, 28 July 2014 18:42
bdgza wrote on Mon, 28 July 2014 03:46

Antoi wrote on Mon, 28 July 2014 09:35

Correct, but in this answer you see that removing wire is part of the battle phase. And that's the thing I wanted to explain Smile


It doesn't actually say it's part of the battle phase, it says to remove the wire after battling, which means it's not part of any regular phase. Because this is a weird and unique exception. I think it would be less confusing to explain this as the armor unit moving 0 (movement phase) to bring it in line with regular armor wire removal. The net result is the same as far as I can see.


The rules DO NOT say after battling, the FAQ does in the course of answering the retreat question. Rules say precisely on page 16: "Armor must remove the Wire and may still battle." This wording implies the wire is removed first. The FAQ is incorrectly worded.
And never does armour get -1 attack for wire.

Hence, in light of no additional information, and because the rule appears in the Battle section, until you hear otherwise, armour does not remove wire in this case (dropping off by LC).
      
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Re:D-Day landings - Landing craft with armour question Mon, 28 July 2014 22:24
Sgt Storm wrote on Mon, 28 July 2014 12:42


Hence, in light of no additional information, and because the rule appears in the Battle section, until you hear otherwise, armour does not remove wire in this case (dropping off by LC).

I tend to agree, but does the LC itself remove wire when it moves ONTO the hex with wire? That I believe is the real question.
And does it matter if the LC cargo is Armor or Infantry?

[Aktualisiert am: Mon, 28 July 2014 22:25]

      
Sgt Storm
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Re:D-Day landings - Landing craft with armour question Tue, 29 July 2014 00:32
stevens wrote on Mon, 28 July 2014 16:24

Sgt Storm wrote on Mon, 28 July 2014 12:42


Hence, in light of no additional information, and because the rule appears in the Battle section, until you hear otherwise, armour does not remove wire in this case (dropping off by LC).

I tend to agree, but does the LC itself remove wire when it moves ONTO the hex with wire? That I believe is the real question.
And does it matter if the LC cargo is Armor or Infantry?



LC does not remove wire. I see that the EP rules say LCT is treated like armor for all purposes. However, that makes little sense, so I would write that off as a mistake. Little sense because it does nothing that armor does except move (i.e., it cannot battle and is removed before the battle phase begins). So the only logical interpretation of that statement is that Armor Assault may be used to order the LCT.

The key point is the LCT is removed during the movement phase after dropping of the unit. Since wire is removed in the battle phase, and LCT has no battle phase and was removed in the movement phase it cannot (by the rules) remove wire.

It also make little practical sense that an LCT would remove wire.

To quote EP rules:

* Movement:
Landing Craft (and the unit they carry) can move up to 2
hexes, on Ocean and Shore hexes (Shore hexes are those Ocean
hexes that are closest to the beach, illustrated as part Ocean and part Beach). Landing Craft can also retreat, even on Ocean hexes. When a Landing Craft finishes its move on a beach or shore hex, it is automatically removed, at no medal cost, and the unit it carried is left on the hex where it landed.

* Battle: Landing Craft have no direct battle capability, and the units they carry may not battle while in them or during the turn in which they land on the shore.
      
50th
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Re:D-Day landings - Landing craft with armour question Tue, 29 July 2014 08:02
Here is some clarification on armor and wire:
http://www.daysofwonder.com/en/msg/?goto=110276#msg_110276

I thought it might help!

Laughing
      
tank commander
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Re:D-Day landings - Landing craft with armour question Tue, 29 July 2014 12:40
Per pg 27 of FAQ
LCs cannot be ordered by Armor Assault
      
--JP
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Re:D-Day landings - Landing craft with armour question Thu, 31 July 2014 13:32
FWIW, when my son and I play:

When an armor unit moves into a wire hex, we place the wire on its stubby end, so when the Battle phase rolls around, we have a reminder that the armor cannot Take Ground and to remove the wire when we roll the attack.

This stemmed from the basic game rules, page 16, that details wire being removed during Battle.

This rule is the same for both versions of the base game.

Only difference between the original and re-print that we've found were bridge rules. No rules in the base game for bridges and LOS. The re-print has Bridges block LOS written on the terrain card. (Makes for a change in the conduct of a few scenarios.)

Then, the FAQ states the bridges block LOS only when specified by the scenario special rules.
      
    
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