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flyinghogfish
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  Let's have some trolls! Thu, 15 February 2007 16:41
To help out the poor goblins. Sad

I'm thinking of trolls as larger units, with two to a hex. They're slow, but very strong in attack, and at the start of your turn, the unit regenerates back to two trolls. Perhaps they're immune to the first flag, it may take a while for them to realise they're being attacked. If supported, they can ignore two.

For a weapon? Uprooted tree? Let's go straight for it with four dice of damage, hit on a colour or a bonus strike.

Maybe (just for goblins, though, no other troops), the troll offers support by itself, not needing a second unit, as the goblins gather around it, feeling somehow safer...

It would be good to see a horde of goblins seething across the board, with a few trolls in amongst them for good measure.

Any chance of a troll or two, DoW? Very Happy
      
Glinthi
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Re:Let's have some trolls! Thu, 15 February 2007 17:15
Just to clarify. . . With your regenerating back to health idea at the beginning of each new turn, the only way to eliminate the Troll unit would be to detroy them all in one turn, right? And the unit would be made up of 2 figures (not 3 like mounted unites, and 4 like foot units)?

If so, I think that would be cool. Question, however: Is there anything inherent about a Troll that would allow it to regenerate itself? I've never thought about Trolls having that sort of ability/power. (But I suppose it's all up for grabs as to what the official attributes of a Troll are anyway) Cool
      
jdw1710
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Re:Let's have some trolls! Thu, 15 February 2007 19:28
Trolls have often been given the ability to regenerate in other gaming systems (DnD comes to mind) although I don't know mythologically if they had that ability.

Anyway, excellent idea on the trolls. Sounds like from your description, Trolls would be a red flag unit and automatically bold. Makes sense to me. Would bonus strikes count though? Something is needed to knock those annoying dwarves off their hills. Laughing
      
zefert1
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Re:Let's have some trolls! Thu, 15 February 2007 20:09
Trolls are given that abilty becuase they quickly recover from wounds. (lord of the rings combat hex game comes to mind for me Very Happy )

But isn't the mountain giant trollish? At least a little

[Aktualisiert am: Thu, 15 February 2007 20:10]

      
TribalBeowulf
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Re:Let's have some trolls! Fri, 16 February 2007 04:51
I think it's a neat idea, but I can see some problems . . .

First, I don't think they are planning on releasing new units. I think it will just be creatures for a little while. That and making use of that mysterious "guest" part of the lore council. (DoW can feel free to prove me wrong on this score.)

Second, for regenerating, regenerating two units per turn? Hmmm, that would be INSANELY powerful. Imagine trying to take down a unit that was supported, and you basically had to kill all on the same turn. I mean, it retreats and you have to start over again. That beats the socks off of lore cards like blur, which cost both a lorecard and lore.

Though it brings up possibilities, for example a creature, Troll Warlord. It is blue, and has two abilities, adjacent goblins lose frightened, and thick hide. Thick hide would be, it can store one lore. You can spend that lore after your opponent rolls his battle dice to ignore one potential hit (not a critical). May not store more than one lore. Basically it's a beast to take down, and goblins rally around it.


      
BL4EVER
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Re:Let's have some trolls! Fri, 16 February 2007 08:17
TribalBeowulf wrote on Fri, 16 February 2007 04:51

I think it's a neat idea, but I can see some problems . . .


Second, for regenerating, regenerating two units per turn? Hmmm, that would be INSANELY powerful. Imagine trying to take down a unit that was supported, and you basically had to kill all on the same turn. I mean, it retreats and you have to start over again. That beats the socks off of lore cards like blur, which cost both a lorecard and lore.





That's one unit per turn. If you had to regenerate 2 the unit would be dead already as a troll unit is only 2 trolls as per the suggestion. I think it's a great way to introduce trolls.
      
flyinghogfish
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  Re:Let's have some trolls! Fri, 16 February 2007 21:26
Thanks for the comments, folk!

My take on trolls (and it's only mine, I'm keen to see this discussed to death) is that they're big, strong, but not too bright (as imagined in Lord of the Rings, I guess). I'm not thinking troll warlords/troll mages etc, here, though they're just as valid if that's how you think of them.

Essentially, I see them as being 'adopted' and kept by the goblins, in return for which they're quite happy to make a bit of mayhem.

The regeneration may be a trip back to my D&D days of yore, but I like the idea of regenerating back to two (hence only one unit regeneration as pointed out earlier, if you get two hits, they're gone). I can remember playing D&D and thinking 'when is this troll going to lie down?' as the battle, which seemed simple enough turned into more of an epic as the thing healed as quick as we could hit it. It makes me think of Beowulf and Grendel as wel, though I couldn't say whether there's anything about quick healing in there, it's been a while.

Two figures to the unit also allows for the figures to be that bit bigger and more imposing, particularly when surrounded by the diminutive goblins (or wading into the annoying dwarves).

In one of the earlier posts, TribalBeowulf said:

Quote:

Second, for regenerating, regenerating two units per turn? Hmmm, that would be INSANELY powerful. Imagine trying to take down a unit that was supported, and you basically had to kill all on the same turn. I mean, it retreats and you have to start over again. That beats the socks off of lore cards like blur, which cost both a lorecard and lore.


Not too sure about that, I just Fireballed my opponent's red cavalry, that felt pretty powerful, and either Mass Might or Creeping Doom are pretty full-on battle-changers. With the trolls, you know where they are, you can avoid them or gang up on them, you know how they work, you can plan for them, tactic-like. Also, there's only two of them in the unit, you only need two hits - admittedly I often feel like that's an impossible grail, but it must happen, my opponents seem to get it often enough.

For me, one of the most memorable parts of the game (as with Memoir '44) is the bit where you say, 'if I'd only rolled a xxx, then the whole thing would have gone the other way'. With a randomised system, I think the beauty is in the ebb and flow of the battle, one minute you're on top of the world, the next your goblins are running between your legs to get off the battlefield as quickly as they can.

Y'know, now I think about it, I'm sure there are some suitable troll figures around, I might just pick some up and give it a go, see how it all pans out. Let you know what happens.... Very Happy
      
Abner
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Re:Let's have some trolls! Wed, 21 February 2007 23:31
flyinghogfish wrote on Fri, 16 February 2007 15:26

Y'know, now I think about it, I'm sure there are some suitable troll figures around, I might just pick some up and give it a go, see how it all pans out. Let you know what happens.... Very Happy



I use a Warhammer Troll fig as a substitute for the Hill Giant and a Warhammer Treeman or the Earth Elemental. Works pretty well.

http://www.boardgamegeek.com/image/186815

(Treeman has since been painted, heh)
      
cebalrai
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Re:Let's have some trolls! Thu, 22 February 2007 01:03
Regenerating trolls are just something that Dungeons and Dragons made up. Mythologically, Trolls have been "around" for over 1000 years without regenerating powers to speak of. Then the D&D guy said 20 years ago that in his game they regenerate... So they shouldn't be regenerating unless we're playing D&D, right?

[Aktualisiert am: Thu, 22 February 2007 01:03]

      
Pawnstar
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Re:Let's have some trolls! Thu, 22 February 2007 08:35
I don't think I would like trolls regenerating by the figure. If this is to be represented at all I would say have a five figure unit (they don't have to take up any more space than a normal infantry stand).

Actually I'm more against troll armies than not; they tend to be individual creatures in myth and legend, operating alone. The Tolkienesque troll is the exception, of course - accompanying goblins in caves and so on - but aren't there enough Tolkienesque trolls around in other games?

Perhaps a troll could be a green creature instead? His massive strength allows him to rend men apart.

And no, I'm not just trolling! Very Happy
      
cebalrai
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Re:Let's have some trolls! Thu, 22 February 2007 14:20
Stop trolling! Cool

I think that with goblins and dwarves around, the game is already moving toward the point of no return as far as Tolkien-esque flavor. At least there aren't any orcs.... yet...
      
flyinghogfish
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Re:Let's have some trolls! Thu, 22 February 2007 15:47
I don't want a troll army either, just one (or maybe two) to support the goblins.

OK, so regeneration comes from D&D, I guess, that doesn't mean that we should damn the idea of it - replace regeneration with qucik healing, and it's not so different. I was just taken by the mechanic itself, along with the goblin support aspect, as my goblin-based forays so far have been pretty desperate affairs.

Nope, the more I think about it, the more I want trolls, and the more I want these trolls, and futhermore the more I want these trolls right about now. Could someone get Richard on the phone... Laughing
      
cebalrai
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Re:Let's have some trolls! Thu, 22 February 2007 17:59
There are lots of mythological powers that trolls have...

- Tolkien's works were actually much more mythology than fantasy. His trolls had scales that were nearly impenetrable. Boromir's sword bounced off the scales in Moria (talking book, not movie). Sting managed to stab the thing in the foot (talking sword, not rock star).

- Swedish Trolls could turn invisible, and were actually invisible most of the time. They were also shape shifters. These were actually human sized, and not brutish. More mischievous than evil sometimes... except for kidnapping children and adults alike.

- In Norse mythology, Thor fought a lot of trolls. I'm not sure what powers they had, but if they were giving Thor a run for his money they were probably pretty darn strong and tough, if not other things as well.

- Middle Ages-era trolls were the prototypical big brutess with enormous strength.


Also, the turn-to-stone-in-sunlight feature that Tolkien's trolls have, is also present in Scandinavian and middle-age troll lore. Dungeons and Dragons ignored that consistent feature for some reason.

[Aktualisiert am: Thu, 22 February 2007 18:12]

      
cebalrai
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Re:Let's have some trolls! Thu, 22 February 2007 18:11
A Battlelore translation for mythological Trolls might include something like this:

- Blue Banner

- 1 Lore: Invisibility - The Troll may not be the target of a battle back this turn.

- 2 Lore: Abduct - The Troll removes one adjacent enemy unit from the game and becomes invisible.

- A troll ending its move outside of a forest or hills hex must roll two dice. Any lore rolled causes the troll to turn to stone, eliminating it from the game.
      
oberjt
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Re:Let's have some trolls! Thu, 22 February 2007 19:49
How about making them need goblin support? I'm thinking a symbiotic type relationship, particularly since they're stupid. I'm thinking something along the lines of a troll unit costs 1 lore to be ordered unless it has adjacent goblin units pointing it in the right direction. This would make it possible to potentially ignore the difficult-to-kill troll unit and just kill his handlers instead.

Just a thought!
      
Abner
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Re:Let's have some trolls! Thu, 22 February 2007 21:12
oberjt wrote on Thu, 22 February 2007 13:49

How about making them need goblin support? I'm thinking a symbiotic type relationship, particularly since they're stupid. I'm thinking something along the lines of a troll unit costs 1 lore to be ordered unless it has adjacent goblin units pointing it in the right direction. This would make it possible to potentially ignore the difficult-to-kill troll unit and just kill his handlers instead.

Just a thought!


Yes. I like my Trolls being 'subject to stupidity' as well. I guess that's my WFB roots showing, but a brutally tough creature-unit that is very hard to control could fit in well.

Same with a Minotaur -- make them subject to frenzy (must follow-up and maybe even continue to pursue a unit that flees)
      
cebalrai
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Re:Let's have some trolls! Thu, 22 February 2007 21:35
Maybe a minotaur could charge? It gets an extra attack die for every space if moved that turn or something.
      
flyinghogfish
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  Re:Let's have some trolls! Sat, 24 February 2007 13:07
oberjt wrote on Thu, 22 February 2007 18:49

I'm thinking something along the lines of a troll unit costs 1 lore to be ordered unless it has adjacent goblin units pointing it in the right direction.

Just a thought!


Nice thought! It also makes the troll unit a little less powerful, and therefore more suited to being a unit than a creature.
      
yangtze
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Re:Let's have some trolls! Mon, 26 February 2007 22:30
You're all missing the point. What we need around here is a dragon! Laughing
      
Patonius
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Re:Let's have some trolls! Tue, 27 February 2007 00:04
I find this topic amusing, especially those against a regenerating troll cause DnD came up with the concept 20 years ago.

I mean, granted, Scotish Dwarves, and goblin lizard riders are more in tune with our historical roots... but having a two unit regenerating troll unit would be something special for the game. Maybe we all just need to use our imaginations Smile

And yes, we need dragons...
      
JMcL63
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Re:Let's have some trolls! Tue, 27 February 2007 00:10
yangtze wrote on Mon, 26 February 2007 21:30

You're all missing the point. What we need around here is a dragon! Laughing

A dragon is essential naturally enough- and surely inevitable to boot. But I like the idea of trolls and other similar creatures. I feel that there is definitely a neat niche in BL for monsters that might not be individual creatures- as per the giant spider and so on, but which are still bigger and harder even than regular cavalry.

The 2-block elephants in C&C:A are the obvious template for these 'intermediate' monsters. There'd have to be tweaks of course- they probably couldn't have the Trample special rule for example, since this is the province of the greater creatures in BL. All the same, it makes sense to me that there could be 2-model units with special rules representing certain kinds of monsters that aren't as mighty as the creatures, and which appear on the battlefield as units and not individuals.

Will DoW go this way? Time will tell I guess. Wink
      
komichido
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Re:Let's have some trolls! Wed, 28 February 2007 05:51
Thought I would jump in the fray and chime in...The whole troll idea is great. Definately like the Gobo support idea, and the regeneration aspect makes them unique. Brutish, imbeciles who do their masters bidding. I like it! DoW lets get those babies to the sculpters. I am partial to the Tolkien looking trolls, the DnD ones were not as visually appealing in my opinion but they do have a toady look to them which supports the regeneration visual.
      
Pawnstar
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  Re:Let's have some trolls! Wed, 28 February 2007 19:24
Patonius wrote on Mon, 26 February 2007 18:04

I find this topic amusing, especially those against a regenerating troll cause DnD came up with the concept 20 years ago.


Try 30+ years ago; and my personal objection is not so much that it was a D&D concept but that representing it by figures reappearing seems wrong. They don't rise from the dead, after all.
      
jdw1710
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Re:Let's have some trolls! Wed, 28 February 2007 20:51
komichido wrote on Tue, 27 February 2007 20:51

Thought I would jump in the fray and chime in...The whole troll idea is great. Definately like the Gobo support idea, and the regeneration aspect makes them unique. Brutish, imbeciles who do their masters bidding. I like it! DoW lets get those babies to the sculpters. I am partial to the Tolkien looking trolls, the DnD ones were not as visually appealing in my opinion but they do have a toady look to them which supports the regeneration visual.


Yeah! Beer bellied, warty, long armed, ugly, slow witted, big nosed green monster is what comes to mind when I think of a troll. Very Happy DnD trolls were too thin (near anorexic).

This might have been mentioned above but I wonder if trolls would make a better creature or a better unit? We don't want to overload the game with too many creatures, but they definitely have creaturish attributes (regeneration, invisibility, etc).
      
flyinghogfish
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Re:Let's have some trolls! Thu, 01 March 2007 16:41
Pawnstar wrote on Wed, 28 February 2007 18:24


Try 30+ years ago; and my personal objection is not so much that it was a D&D concept but that representing it by figures reappearing seems wrong. They don't rise from the dead, after all.



I can see where you're coming from, but then again a unit of four footmen isn't actually a unit of four footmen, it's just representative of a larger unit. One of the exceptions to this is creatures, which seem to be 1:1 model scale. This is another reason why I think trolls (as I see them, anyway) should be a regular unit. If they were creatures, then I'd be right behind you in your raising-from-the-dead argument.

In the same vein, some of the special abilities in the game (the cleric's healing fountain? don't have the rules with me) allow you to heal units and add the figures back in; again, not raising from the dead, but healing.

Anyone fancy a trip to DoW's offices with some placards until we get some trolls? Very Happy
      
Pawnstar
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Re:Let's have some trolls! Sat, 03 March 2007 07:54
Well that is a good point; but I would still prefer trolls as creatures just because they don't seem to be the type that would group together to make an army. That's just my personal taste, however. As a kind of hero-type piece with a goblinoid unit sounds a good compromise.
      
flyinghogfish
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Re:Let's have some trolls! Sat, 03 March 2007 20:32
Pawnstar wrote on Sat, 03 March 2007 06:54

As a kind of hero-type piece with a goblinoid unit sounds a good compromise.


I wholly agree, and I don't want to see a troll army, either. Very Happy

So now we just have to figure out how to get DoW's attention and get them to make the pieces! Still on for the placard waving... Wink
      
JadedGamer
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Re:Let's have some trolls! Sun, 04 March 2007 10:06
Pawnstar wrote on Wed, 28 February 2007 19:24

representing it by figures reappearing seems wrong. They don't rise from the dead, after all.


But the rules are quite explicit about that: The figures do not represent actual units but are there just to indicate strength. If the unit regains strength (for instance via reinforcements in historical scenarios), you add back figures. Regeneration becomes just another way of regaining strength.

Edit: Um, noticed someone already said as much on the next page.

[Aktualisiert am: Sun, 04 March 2007 10:08]

      
yangtze
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Re:Let's have some trolls! Fri, 09 March 2007 22:46
Hey, Flyinghogfish, have you noticed how suggesting you might want a certain class of creature in the game arouses strong emotions? I notice 'Let's Have a Dragon' has a had a mere few more hits than this thread. But both have had a lot!
      
Captain_Wiley
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Re:Let's have some trolls! Fri, 09 March 2007 23:52
yangtze:

Personally, I'm in it to have fun. Whatever they come up with is great: trolls, dragons, koalas, gelatenous cubes, etc. - my kids will love it. Some people obviously have stronger convictions, though. Anything too close to actual LOTR stuff, and DoW may run into copyright issues and/or license fees - I think Peter Jackson even owns the rights to the term "orcs" now. Better make them "sporks".
      
yangtze
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Re:Let's have some trolls! Sat, 10 March 2007 00:09
Very true. But Tolkien can't claim a monopoly on trolls or dragons. Or unicorns, thankfully. Hobbits and orcs maybe...
      
flyinghogfish
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Re:Let's have some trolls! Sun, 11 March 2007 11:52
Captain_Wiley wrote on Fri, 09 March 2007 22:52

yangtze:

Personally, I'm in it to have fun. Whatever they come up with is great: trolls, dragons, koalas, gelatenous cubes, etc. - my kids will love it. Some people obviously have stronger convictions, though. Anything too close to actual LOTR stuff, and DoW may run into copyright issues and/or license fees - I think Peter Jackson even owns the rights to the term "orcs" now. Better make them "sporks".


Ahead of you on the gelatinous cubes issue, Captain_Wiley. Use the jelly that comes in cubes (for the benefit of any Americans watching, that's jelly as in ice cream and jelly, not what we refer to in Britain as jam). That way, you can have you cubes not only in different colour, but also different flavours, mmm mmmm. You've just got to go for those units if you're peckish.

I've been quite amazed at the number of hits and replies this thread has had, but I think it shows that we've got us an interested community, which is good news in my book.

Now I'm just waiting for someone from DoW to post that the trolls will be with us shortly...

Still got my placard ready to march outside the DoW offices demanding trolls, but strangely no-one else seems up for it. Very Happy
      
Captain_Wiley
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Re:Let's have some trolls! Mon, 12 March 2007 23:06
Quote:

Use the jelly that comes in cubes (for the benefit of any Americans watching, that's jelly as in ice cream and jelly, not what we refer to in Britain as jam). That way, you can have you cubes not only in different colour, but also different flavours, mmm mmmm. You've just got to go for those units if you're peckish.


I'll stick with the regulars (pun intended), since I am frequently behind the wheel after playing. This reminds me of another thread, of which I am loathe to mention, but here goes:
http://www.daysofwonder.com/index.php?t=msg&th=9649& start=0&rid=198259&S=b995db91e44585b1db57550d742c980 1
Maybe you could do the same thing with jello cubes?
(Speaking as a "troll" myself - which is what people in the upper penninsula of Michigan refer to those in the lower, who reside "below the bridge": bring on the trolls and dragons and whatever!)

[Aktualisiert am: Wed, 14 March 2007 14:12]

      
yangtze
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Re:Let's have some trolls! Tue, 13 March 2007 00:38
Ah the thread with the 'c' word... ('chocolate', that is!)

I'm ready with the placards, but only if we campaign in role as trolls Smile
      
Captain_Wiley
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Re:Let's have some trolls! Tue, 13 March 2007 17:55
OOPS!!!
Quote:

(Speaking as a "troll" myself - which is what people in the upper penninsula of Michigan refer to those in the lower, who reside "below the bridge": bring on the trolls and dragons and whatever!)

Fixed it...never mind. Forgot about the "Edit" button.

[Aktualisiert am: Wed, 14 March 2007 14:14]

      
flyinghogfish
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Re:Let's have some trolls! Thu, 31 May 2007 21:29
I'd abandoned my campaign for trolls, and in fact used the placards to complaim about another game entirely. Then, Call to Arms arrived and I noticed on the cover, just above the 'o' in 'to', IS THAT A TROLL I SEE? Doesn't like like a hill giant or an earth elemental to me, no sir, so I wonder what it's all about?

'Course I'll probably have to wait until the @%#$&! ostrich-riders appear first....

Laughing
      
_twinkle_
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Re:Let's have some trolls! Tue, 05 June 2007 15:32
Thanks for the idea... I probably throw in a couple of Troll units for tomorrows BattleLore session. Will not use the regenerating stuff, but will use two figure units (using WFB miniatures) and it will take two hits to kill one Troll figure in a single attack. Leftover hits will be lost.

A Troll unit will attack as a blue unit, shield always being a hit (no matter if enemy unit is mounted or on foot). They are always Bold and immune to retreat results. However they are a bit unfocused on army orders so they are always moved towards the nearest enemy.

Trolls are themselves attacked like they are mounted units (just to make it easy to remember), i.e. the first shield result while attacking a Troll unit is not a hit.

Will at least be fun to test out...

Thanks,
/twinkle
      
Zeal
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Re:Let's have some trolls! Wed, 06 June 2007 19:02
Well, I like the goblin support, but lets call them handlers instead. Say one Troll, 2 goos handlers.

For regen? Eat a Handler. When both are gone, no one conTROLLS (yuk yuk) the unit anymore, he attacks either the closest unit, or has a "behavior" chart to consult.

Powerful, but can completely backfire.

I was thinking along the lines of rogue elephants in ancients games where a rogue can ruin your whole day.

      
morrowindmaster
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  Re:Let's have some trolls! Wed, 06 June 2007 19:46
cebalrai wrote on Thu, 22 February 2007 11:59


Also, the turn-to-stone-in-sunlight feature that Tolkien's trolls have, is also present in Scandinavian and middle-age troll lore. Dungeons and Dragons ignored that consistent feature for some reason.


This is just speculation, but its almost any level cleric can whip out a divine spell to produce a large amount of light, thus taking away any challenge the Troll would have presented.
      
Zeal
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Re:Let's have some trolls! Wed, 06 June 2007 23:42
morrowindmaster wrote on Wed, 06 June 2007 11:46

cebalrai wrote on Thu, 22 February 2007 11:59


Also, the turn-to-stone-in-sunlight feature that Tolkien's trolls have, is also present in Scandinavian and middle-age troll lore. Dungeons and Dragons ignored that consistent feature for some reason.


This is just speculation, but its almost any level cleric can whip out a divine spell to produce a large amount of light, thus taking away any challenge the Troll would have presented.


Yes, but as has been noted elsewhere in these threads, a Cleric spell would also likely to affect every hex around the troll, with cataclysmic effect. Razz

[Aktualisiert am: Wed, 06 June 2007 23:48]

      
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