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Amy1355
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? - Hand size check and playing a character card Thu, 08 February 2007 22:52
I need clarification on whether a play using the various character cards (specifically the ones that provide a card or card) can be made after the check of hand size when at the market.

I know the rules state that a character card may be played at any time during your own turn. One player last night felt that he could follow the steps on page 3 and play the character card (in this case the beggar or envoy) AFTER step 3.

However, I read step 2 to mean that the hand size check is actually performed AFTER all else in the market visit turn.

Page 3, step 1 states "If the player's turn ends with more than 10 cards in his hand, he must immediately..." and then lists the discard options of all over 10 or no discard.


Page 4, in the paragraph after the Quarry section, it states that "The character cards...can be used at ANY time during a player's turn..." but this was argued to contradict the rule on page 3 by a player. The player argued that the rules list the hand check in step one of the market turn play sequence, but I interpret the rules to mean that the market stalls can fill and ALL market actions happen before the hand size check.

I personally take the wording from page 3 step 1 to be literal in the "turn ends" phrase. I think the steps are not meant to be rigid in their play order.

Any clarification is appreciated.

[Aktualisiert am: Thu, 08 February 2007 22:58]

      
ColtsFan76
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Re:? - Hand size check and playing a character card Fri, 09 February 2007 01:16
Realize that the Market and quarry are two distinct options. You may do one or the other - but not both. So it looks like your quotes form page 3 and page 4 are not applicable to each other.

If you choose to go to the market, all you are really doing is getting more cards - that is step 1. Step 2 through 4 really don't apply to your turn and are just instruction on how to replenish the stalls. So for all practicaly purposes, your turn ends at the end of Step 1. But for administrative clean-up, you may use Steps 2 through 4 to replenish the stalls and then finish out your turn.

Since you can character card at any time, you may play the character first, and then check to see if you have 10 cards. Or you may check for 10 cards, and then discard (or pay the fine) and then play the character card.

Now, when you visit the quarry, you have a completely different set of rules. One that is NOT included is the hand size check and discard if over 10 cards. So you don't need to worry about this at all. So in this case, you really can play the Chracter card at any time and not worry about how many cards you have.
      
GreatDane
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Re:? - Hand size check and playing a character card Wed, 21 March 2007 15:30
Bruno has answered this in ther French forum:

Quote:

"effetivement, en théorie tu devrais aussi compter ta main après un passage à la carrière...
ceci dit, quand tu vas à la carrière, en général tu as intér^t à construire tout ce que tu peux, pour obtenir les bonus de construction (sans lesquels il est bien difficile de gagner)..

donc, ds la pratique, je n'ai jamais vu qq avec plus de 10 cartes en main après construction, même si c'est théoriquement possible.

C'est pour ça qu'on a pas rajouté une ligne de règle ds c paragraphe pour ne pas alourdir le texte."


Now, my French is a little rusty, but the gist of the reply is that

"in theory you should also check the hand limit after Building. That said, you would normally build all you can in order to score as many bonus points as possible, so in practice you will never have more than 10 cards at the end of a Building turn. I have never seen anyone with hand of 10 cards after Building, even though it is theoretically possible. This is why it was decided not to clutter the paragraph with this text."
      
AK_Aramis
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Re:? - Hand size check and playing a character card Wed, 21 March 2007 20:18
In not including it, by intent or neglect, the quarry doesn't trigger a check... nor corruption.

If the designer wants a check there, it's time to update the rulebook... it will change the game, as having a large hand becomes more problematic.

Not to be petulant, but a designer's intent is immaterial if he doesn't write the rules to match...
      
ColtsFan76
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Re:? - Hand size check and playing a character card Wed, 21 March 2007 23:43
AK_Aramis wrote on Wed, 21 March 2007 14:18

In not including it, by intent or neglect, the quarry doesn't trigger a check... nor corruption.

If the designer wants a check there, it's time to update the rulebook... it will change the game, as having a large hand becomes more problematic.

Not to be petulant, but a designer's intent is immaterial if he doesn't write the rules to match...

I have to agree. How hard would it have been to include the paragraph one more time - or state the hand size is checked "like it was at the market"?

In addition, I believe that DoW has clarified the difference also. I have seen that while the designer made the game, the publisher owns it and DoW has sometimes conflicted with the designer's rulings and the DoW rules win.

And unless the rules are rewritten, I intend to play it the same way as before - that only the Market limits hand size. Based on the above example and other possibilities, I think it is viable to keep this possibility open for whatever strategic results may come.
      
AK_Aramis
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Re:? - Hand size check and playing a character card Fri, 23 March 2007 20:24
In playing a game last night, it occurred to me that there is a good reason to build but one item, and that was when I was building walls just to get to roll for the great priest.

See, I wanted to get others to bid high, spending VP to not gain corruption, corruption I could afford. (Final game ended at 39-26-24-19-E20; I was the 26, and the extra corruption of a 5th place in the auction would be no harm.)

At one point, I built with 14 cards in hand, but built only one item; I had NO artisans!
      
    
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