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tank commander
Nachrichten: 1796
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October 2004
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Turboheizer
Nachrichten: 420
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February 2006
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Re:Italian Army Royal Army Rules change
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Tue, 17 July 2012 14:03
 
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For me, this sounds as if "Italian Royal Army Command Rules" and "Italian High Command Rules" are not the same and the latter only apply to certain scenarios if mentioned in the "Special Rules" section.
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tank commander
Nachrichten: 1796
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October 2004
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djedi gamer
Nachrichten: 155
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July 2010
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Re:Italian Army Royal Army Rules change
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Wed, 18 July 2012 10:17
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| tank commander wrote on Tue, 17 July 2012 12:13 |
I just noted this addition to the Italian Royal Army Command Rules in the Equipment Pack Rules:
"When the Italian High Command rules are in effect its army starts the battle with 6 Command cards in hand. Each time a unit is lost, one Italian one Italian player's Command card is selected at random by his opponent and discarded. However the number of Command cards held by the Italian player cannot be reduced below three.
In the Mediterranean Theatre expansion rules the Italian Royal Army Rules only mention "Motorized Divisions" and "Artillery Bravery", not the above section.
Very interesting.....
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Good to hear that. There can be more situations to retreat weakened Italian forces.
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Turboheizer
Nachrichten: 420
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February 2006
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Re:Italian Army Royal Army Rules change
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Sat, 05 January 2013 21:42
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I am now using the new Italian rules for the first time, playing some of the new maps. While this may work well with the new scenarios, I'm not really a big fan of retroactive rule changes because the earlier scenarios were designed without any knowledge of those rules and their addition may affect the balance of forces the map designer originally intended.
(A good example for the irritations possibly caused by such a rule change can be found here: http://www.daysofwonder.com/de/msg/?goto=258771#msg_258771)
Because of this, in my opinion the "Italian High Command" rule should only be used if
1.) There really IS an undivided Italian High Command (i.e. there are no German or other units controlled by the Axis player)
AND
2.) The Italian player really starts with 6 Command cards as required in the IHQ rule.
All other scenarios should be played according to the earlier rules (using "Motorized Divisions" and "Artillery Bravery" only).
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stevens
Nachrichten: 2740
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February 2007
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Re:Italian Army Royal Army Rules change
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Sun, 06 January 2013 00:46
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Another thing that would help to be clarified in the Italian Rules is:
Does the player with the Italian units CHOOSE which card to discard or does his opponent?
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sam1812
Nachrichten: 1924
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August 2006
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Re:Italian Army Royal Army Rules change
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Sun, 06 January 2013 03:07
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| Turboheizer wrote on Sat, 05 January 2013 15:42 |
...Because of this, in my opinion the "Italian High Command" rule should only be used if
1.) There really IS an undivided Italian High Command (i.e. there are no German or other units controlled by the Axis player)
AND
2.) The Italian player really starts with 6 Command cards as required in the IHQ rule.
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The Equipment Pack rule book (page 10) specifically says, in its description of the Italian High Command rule, "When the Italian High Command rules are in effect..." So that rule must be specified, just like Blitz, or stiff upper lip, or Gung-Ho.
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rasmussen81
Nachrichten: 6111
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July 2007
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Re:Italian Army Royal Army Rules change
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Sun, 06 January 2013 03:21
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| stevens wrote on Sun, 06 January 2013 03:46 |
Another thing that would help to be clarified in the Italian Rules is:
Does the player with the Italian units CHOOSE which card to discard or does his opponent?
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If the opponent got to pick the card you have to give up, it would say that in the rules! I believe the Italian player gets to discard the one he wants. 
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stevens
Nachrichten: 2740
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February 2007
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rasmussen81
Nachrichten: 6111
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July 2007
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Re:Italian Army Royal Army Rules change
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Sun, 06 January 2013 04:35
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Exactly! I knew there was another situation where this kind of action took place but I couldn't remember where. 
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stevens
Nachrichten: 2740
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February 2007
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rasmussen81
Nachrichten: 6111
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July 2007
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Re:Italian Army Royal Army Rules change
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Sun, 06 January 2013 05:10
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I don't think so...I don't think it's possible (or realistic) for rules to spell out every single situation and this seems like a place where if they had wanted the rules a certain way, they would have written that out.
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stevens
Nachrichten: 2740
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February 2007
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Re:Italian Army Royal Army Rules change
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Sun, 06 January 2013 06:03
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| rasmussen81 wrote on Sat, 05 January 2013 23:10 |
I don't think so...I don't think it's possible (or realistic) for rulees to spell out every single situation and this seems like a place where if they had wanted the rules a certain way, they would have written that out.
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You are more than likely correct. 
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ad79
Nachrichten: 778
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September 2007
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Re:Italian Army Royal Army Rules change
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Sun, 06 January 2013 09:02
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It is mentioned in the rulebook under Italian Royal Army Command Rules :
"When the Italian High Command rules are in effect its army starts the battle with 6 Command cards in hand. Each time a unit is lost, one Italian one Italian player's Command card is selected at random by his opponent and discarded. However the number of Command cards held by the Italian player cannot be reduced below three.
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rasmussen81
Nachrichten: 6111
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July 2007
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Re:Italian Army Royal Army Rules change
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Sun, 06 January 2013 09:33
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| ad79 wrote on Sun, 06 January 2013 12:02 |
It is mentioned in the rulebook under Italian Royal Army Command Rules :
"When the Italian High Command rules are in effect its army starts the battle with 6 Command cards in hand. Each time a unit is lost, one Italian one Italian player's Command card is selected at random by his opponent and discarded. However the number of Command cards held by the Italian player cannot be reduced below three.
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Perfect!! See...it says specifically in the rules how to play this. 
Good find, ad79. What a great idea to look in the rule book!! 
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Quit2
Nachrichten: 802
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July 2007
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Re:Italian Army Royal Army Rules change
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Sun, 06 January 2013 10:32
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well, you all could just have read the initial post. It quotes that rule.
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rasmussen81
Nachrichten: 6111
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July 2007
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Re:Italian Army Royal Army Rules change
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Sun, 06 January 2013 10:45
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| Quit2 wrote on Sun, 06 January 2013 13:32 |
well, you all could just have read the initial post. It quotes that rule.
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 Good point! 
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Turboheizer
Nachrichten: 420
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February 2006
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Re:Italian Army Royal Army Rules change
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Sun, 06 January 2013 11:04
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Now that it is cleared how the cards of the Italian player are discarded, allow me to return to my original point:
| Quote: |
The Equipment Pack rule book (page 10) specifically says, in its description of the Italian High Command rule, "When the Italian High Command rules are in effect..." So that rule must be specified, just like Blitz, or stiff upper lip, or Gung-Ho.
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That was my understanding a few months ago (see my postings above), but I don't think so any longer. All scenarios with Italian troops that were published with the Equipment Pack or the Christmas Bonus only mention that "Italian Royal Army Command rules are in effect (Nations 6 - Italian Royal Army)". All these maps have the Italian player beginning with 6 Command cards, and in my opinion, it is clearly intended that the "Italian High Command" rules are automatically included. I now concur with tankcommander's opinion from the summer:
| Quote: |
The "Italian High Command" rule is listed under "Italian Royal Army Command Rules" in the Equipment Pack rules as are the "Motorized Divisions" and "Artillery Bravery". So it is part and parcel of that rule section.
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So, as it seems, the IHQ rule should be always used when Italian Army Command Rules are in effect. Now let's assume you are playing an older scenario from the Mediterranean Theater expansion or the Battle Maps and the rules state that Italian Army Command rules are in effect (Hellfire Pass, Bir Hakeim, Coastal Road, Raid on Barce), what do you do? I don't think it would be appropriate to use the IHQ rule in these cases, because:
1.) In the maps from the MTO expansion, the Axis player controls more German than Italian units.
2.) In "Raid on Barce", the Italian player begins with only 4 Command cards.
For me, I have decided (as already stated above) to use the IHQ rules only when the Axis forces are exclusively Italian AND the Italian player begins with 6 Command cards.
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rasmussen81
Nachrichten: 6111
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July 2007
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Re:Italian Army Royal Army Rules change
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Sun, 06 January 2013 11:16
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Very well explained, Turboheizer!! I understand your confusion and I think your solution is a logical one. I haven't played the new scenarios (since most of my Memoir '44 stuff is in America and I'm in the United Arab Emirates) so I hadn't run across this yet.
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stevens
Nachrichten: 2740
Registriert:
February 2007
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Sgt Storm
Nachrichten: 687
Registriert:
December 2006
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Re:Italian Army Royal Army Rules change
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Tue, 08 January 2013 20:56
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| Turboheizer wrote on Sun, 06 January 2013 05:04 |
...
So, as it seems, the IHQ rule should be always used when Italian Army Command Rules are in effect. Now let's assume you are playing an older scenario from the Mediterranean Theater expansion or the Battle Maps and the rules state that Italian Army Command rules are in effect (Hellfire Pass, Bir Hakeim, Coastal Road, Raid on Barce), what do you do? I don't think it would be appropriate to use the IHQ rule in these cases, because:
1.) In the maps from the MTO expansion, the Axis player controls more German than Italian units.
2.) In "Raid on Barce", the Italian player begins with only 4 Command cards.
For me, I have decided (as already stated above) to use the IHQ rules only when the Axis forces are exclusively Italian AND the Italian player begins with 6 Command cards.
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My solution to this type of problem (when rules change) is to play the official scenarios with the rules that were in effect when the scenario was designed and tested. That's easiest for me, but probably not possible for a newer player not familiar with all the changes. If we had two separately numbered and named Nations cards, then this would not be an issue.
In the future it might be prudent for DOW to either,
a) Create a new card when a rule is changed and the old rule is still to be used with older scenarios (as they did for late war special weapons assets),
or
b) Publish somewhere that the old rule is now obsolete (a rules change summary could be added to the FAQ).
This would not be for my benefit (I don't really care), but for new players that could be totally confused by this.
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