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Sysyphus - Pommard
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NC 2012 : Rules and discussion Mon, 13 August 2012 18:56
Hi there !

Considering the success of last year's NC which was pretty smooth to organize, it is time to launch officially NC 2012 for its 8th edition !

Here are the rules !

The rules can be updated by the board later on.

Here's the NC homepage on tickipedia.

http://www.tickipedia.net/wiki/Nations_Cup

I guess Truckerteller will be our TD again !


NC RULES 2012


1. NC is a competition for National teams

2. Players who live, study or work in country A and have nationality B may play for either A or B.

3. Players with a double nationality may choose for which country they play.

4. Players to whom 2. and 3. applies have to decide in the preregistration phase for one nationality

5. A team formed by players working for DoW may be transnational.

6. Guests are not allowed to play. Players that are not registered players at the end of registration phase cannot play. Players are not allowed to change their names during the tournament.

7. Base for national/transnational teams is a player/country list down to rank 500 posted 6 weeks before the end of the registration phase

8. Players of the same nationality (or chosen nationality as in 2./3.) have to play together

9. Any country that has 4 or more players listed in the player/country list HAS to try to form their own national team. No team can reject a player of the same nationality unless they register a full team. If they fail to get 4 players together - see 11.
9.1 several teams per country are allowed.

10. No player that rejects to play for his nation can play for any other team.

11. Players that are not able to form a full team under these conditions may join with other nationalities regarding 8.

12. Players that are overhangs of registered nations may join transnational teams as in 11 regarding rule 8. In special cases a NC board may allow these players upon request to join a registered nations team (language problems i.e.). No national team that has declared itself 'complete' (= has rejected one or more players of their own country) may ever be joined by a player from a different country. There will be a "Split registration" in two phases, part one for the national teams, part two for the TN Teams and overhangs. In phase one only national teams can register. Two weeks before the start of the NC phase two will be opened to leave the remaining players possibility to form transnational teams regarding the rules.



13. Organisation of play

13.1. Explanation
Tournament > Round > Clash > Match > game
Clash = encounter between two teams
Match = encounter between two players
Round robin: if a group plays a round robin, each team plays against each other team in that group once.

13.2 Team's rank is decided by the sum of ratings of best 4 players as of Sunday, Sept. 16th, 23:00 CEST.

13.3 Captains
Captains can be either playing or non-playing. The captain acts as the spokesman/woman of the team in the following way:

- He/she registers the team by posting a reply on the REGISTRATIONAL thread;
- The captain sends the TD a PM WEEKLY with the four-player lineup no later than Wednesday, 11:00 PM (GMT) (the week before the start of the next round). If the TD doesn't receive it in time, she/he will use the lineup of the round before;

The players play their games (they can make arrangements by PM) and pass the results through to their captains, all within the time limit.

It is allowed to start arranging and playing a new round right after the TD has posted the pairings for the next round, even if the previous round hasn't been finished.

13.4 Board representatives
Every team nominates a representative for the NC Board when registering. The board representative will represent the teams decissions and wishes in cases of dispute or rule discussions. The team captain may but must not necessarily be team representative.

13.5 Tournament overview
The tournament will comprise 8-12 weeks including a break of a week in between round robin and knockout phase. Below the division in groups and continuation in knockout phase is shown, based on team's rank, with various numbers of teams:


6-10: Full round robin with SF and F. #1 chooses opponent in SF
6: 8 weeks
7: 10 weeks
8: 10 weeks
9: 12 weeks
10: 12 weeks

11-16: Round robin, 2 groups, with QF, SF and F. #1s choose opponent of other group in QF; cannot meet other #1 in SF, cannot meet best classified of own group in SF.
11: (1,4,5,8,9) and (2,3,6,7,10,11), 9 weeks
12: (1,4,5,8,9,12) and (2,3,6,7,10,11), 9 weeks
13: (1,4,5,8,9,12) and (2,3,6,7,10,11,13), 11 weeks
14: (1,4,5,8,9,12) and (2,3,6,7,10,11,13,14), 11 weeks
15: (1,4,5,8,9,12,13) and (2,3,6,7,10,11,14,15), 11 weeks
16: (1,4,5,8,9,12,13,16) and (2,3,6,7,10,11,14,15), 11 weeks

17-22: Round robin, 3 groups, with QF, SF and F.
4 teams advance per group, the group with the best 2nd comer will be renamed to group D, the next groups circular to E and F, then the pairings for first rd KO will be:
1E-bye, 3F-3D, 2D-bye, 2F-4E ---- 1F-bye, 2E-4D, 1D-bye, 3E-4F
best 2nd comer will be determined according to the tiebreaker rules (13.7)
Quarterfinal: 1Evs3F-3D; 2Dvs2F-4E;;; 1Fvs2E-4D; 1Dvs3E-4F
17: (1,6,7,12,13), (2,5,8,11,14,17) and (3,4,9,10,15,16), 9 weeks
18: (1,6,7,12,13,18), (2,5,8,11,14,17) and (3,4,9,10,15,16), 9 weeks
19: (1,6,7,12,13,18), (2,5,8,11,14,17) and (3,4,9,10,15,16,19), 11 weeks
20: (1,6,7,12,13,18), (2,5,8,11,14,17,20) and (3,4,9,10,15,16,19), 11 weeks
21: (1,6,7,12,13,18,19), (2,5,8,11,14,17,20) and (3,4,9,10,15,16,21), 11 weeks

22: (1,6,7,12,13,18,19), (2,5,8,11,14,17,20) and (3,4,9,10,15,16,21,22), 11 weeks

23/24: four groups (1,8,9,16,17,24)(2,7,10,15,18,23)(3,6,11,14,19,22)(4,5,12,13 ,20,21) - groups split according to ELO team rank.

1/8, QF, SF and final (16 teams advance to KO phase)

Each group gets assigned a letter A-D randomly (using toutoune`s suggestion of starting a 4 player game with 1 member of each group and seeing who is the start player - that group becomes Group A, then do it for 3 players to figure out Group B, etc.). Once a letter is assigned then the matchups are fixed.

A1 plays B4 (i.e. Group A 1st place Team play Group B 4th place team)
A2 plays B3
A3 plays B2
A4 plays B1
C1 plays D4
C2 plays D3
C3 plays D2
C4 plays D1

Quarter Finals:
A1/B4 vs. C2/D3 (winner=A)
A2/B3 vs. C1/D4 (winner=B)
A3/B2 vs. C4/D1 (winner=C)
A4/B1 vs. C3/D2 (winner=D)

Semi Finals:
A vs C and B vs D
Finals



13.6 Clash pairings in round robin stage
Pairings by number of teams in a group, team number according to team rank.

5 teams
Round 1: 1-3, 5-2
Round 2: 4-1, 3-5
Round 3: 2-3, 4-5
Round 4: 5-1, 2-4
Round 5: 1-2, 3-4

6 teams
Round 1: 1-4, 2-5, 3-6
Round 2: 5-1, 2-3, 4-6
Round 3: 1-3, 6-2, 4-5
Round 4: 6-1, 2-4, 3-5
Round 5: 1-2, 3-4, 5-6

7 teams
Round 1: 7-1, 3-5, 6-2
Round 2: 1-4, 2-5, 6-7
Round 3: 5-1, 2-3, 4-7
Round 4: 7-2, 4-5, 3-6
Round 5: 1-2, 3-4, 5-6
Round 6: 6-1, 7-3, 2-4
Round 7: 1-3, 5-7, 4-6

8 teams
Round 1: 1-6, 2-5, 3-7, 4-8
Round 2: 1-3, 2-4, 5-8, 6-7
Round 3: 1-7, 2-8, 3-6, 4-5
Round 4: 1-5, 2-6, 3-8, 4-7
Round 5: 1-4, 2-7, 3-5, 6-8
Round 6: 1-8, 2-3, 5-7, 4-6
Round 7: 1-2, 3-4, 5-6, 7-8

13.7 Match pairings
Captains choose a lineup per clash. EACH CLASH, THEY ARE FREE TO CHOOSE PLAYERS AND SLOTS THEY PLAY IN.


14. Schedule of play
14.1 Explanation
Once the draw for the next round is posted (on Thursday or Friday in the week preceding that round) the players can play their games (they can make arrangements by PM). The captain must have the results of the match before the end of the week of that round. Example: the second round, of which the draw will be posted not later than Friday, 19th of September, must be finished latest on Sunday the 28th of September.
14.2 Safe exit
Once the schedule of Round Robin is released :
If a team knows in advance that one of their players is not able to play in the time of a certain clash, they can ask for the TD's agreement to have that particular match played before the due time. It is the responsibility of the captain of that team to contact his/her peer to find an arrangement.
Each team, when ready, will send a lineup made of 1 name for that match. The remaining lineup will be sent to the TD at the time scheduled including the score of the match already played.


15.Format of a clash in Round Robin.

15.1 Duration of a match in the Round Robin
A. Number of games per match during round robin
Each match consists of 6 games.
In case of a tied game, each player will receive 0.5 point. Possible results of a match are 6-0; 5,5-0,5; 5-1; 4,5-1,5; 4-2; 3,5-2,5; 3-3.

B. Tiebreaker in Round Robin
To decide upon rank in the round robin, number of clashes won is the first tiebreaker, then the number of matches won, then the number of games won, then the round robin result between the relevant teams.
C. Starter rule
The first game is opened with random start. For subsequent games the starter alternates.


15.2. Format of clash and a match in KO Round
A. Lineups
The captain sends the TD a pm with the four-player lineup and nominates a player for the tie-breaking match (that will be played only if needed).
Players that play the first 4 matches can play the tie-breaking match.
B. Duration of a match
Best-of-seven, i.e. match is over when a player has won 4 games. A tied game doesn't count for the match. Possible results are 4-0, 4-1, 4-2, and 4-3.
C. Starter rule
Odd games are random starting, even games are started by the player that did not start the previous game. If a game is a tie, although it doesn't count for the match in terms of games won, it counts as a game played.
D.To decide upon win in the KO round, number of matches won is the first tie breaker, then result of the tie-breaking match.


16. Anti-Cheating Trust:
- Each player plays with his/her personal account. It is forbidden to have anyone else play NC games with that account. The players rating should reflect his playing strength.
- Each player plays with his/her strongest account (overall).
- Each player plays alone. Any contact with others (other than one's opponent) during the game that has to do with that current game is forbidden.

17. Nature of the games
A. 1v1;
B. US map;
C. Rated;
D. Observable: Hide cards or "buddies only" option is not allowed, but TD can allow the use of the 'hide cards' option on certain clashes if asked by captains who suspect cheating on the other side. Accidentally starting a game which is NOT observable does not have to be replayed. The opening player shall be reminded after that game about the rules. Only if he continues deliberately to start closed the match shall be given as a win to the opposing team.

19. Anti-Bot Trust
In a game between player A and B, if B is replaced by a bot, A waits till B returns and after that the game resumes, no matter what the bot did. Special cases:

19.1. After about 5 minutes (give or take), if B hasn't returned, A leaves the game. B has to make sure the game is resumed within 24 hours. If not, the TD rules:
A. A wins if B hasn't put enough effort in rescheduling the game;
B. The game is annulled if both players express the wish to do so, or if the TD rules that no one can be blamed (if neither of the players could find time, for example);
C. B wins if and only if the TD is convinced that A deliberately procastinated the resuming of the game.

19.2. In case A continues to play against the bot, the game is annulled if A can convince B or the TD that he didn't play on deliberately. Player A can't win the game anymore.

19.3. In case both players are disconnected, the game has to be resumed in 24 hours. If not, the TD rules according to the situation where only B was disconnected. In this case both players are treated equally.

20. Miscellaneous
A. It is not allowed to add players to a team after the start of the tournament unless the TD decides otherwise (mostly in case of emergency). A player can only be registered to one team. This emergency registration has to be according to rules 2./3./6./8./12.
B. In case of a dispute, one of the involved captains sends a PM to the TD with a copy to the other captain. The decision will be under the discretion of the TD. The TD will inform both captains by PM about the decision and post it in the organisational thread if necessary. The TD may request support from the NC board to cover her/his decision.
C. If a team is not able to finish a round, it forfeits all unplayed games and loses therewith each unfinished match.
D. Captains can temporarily or permanently resign during the tournament by adjusting their posting in the REGISTRATIONAL thread, in which they appoint a new captain.
E. Every team is free to choose a name; by default, every team gets the name of the team members' country.

[Aktualisiert am: Sun, 23 September 2012 23:33]

      
Sysyphus - Pommard
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Re:NC 2012 : Rules and schedule Mon, 13 August 2012 18:58


DEADLINE TO REGRISTER YOUR NATIONAL TEAM IS SET ON SUNDAY, 2nd OF SEPTEMBER 23:00 CET / 21:00 UTC



DEADLINE FOR TRANSNATIONAL TEAMS IS SET ON SUNDAY, 9TH OF SEPTEMBER 23:00 CET / 21:00 UTC




The rankings will be done on Sunday 9th of SEPTEMBER 23:00 CET.
      
UK Subs
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Re:NC 2012 : Rules and schedule Mon, 13 August 2012 19:48
Steam version rocks!

[Aktualisiert am: Tue, 14 August 2012 02:38]

      
ACP Miguel
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Re:NC 2012 : Rules and schedule Mon, 13 August 2012 19:50
fast to have an opinion. 50 games played?

lol u had a strong opinion and now u ask about australia....

hummm let me think now if i search your nationality it's australian right?

another 2nd account from a known member Smile

LOLOLOL! and he keeps going for it! Wink

[Aktualisiert am: Mon, 13 August 2012 19:58]

      
Sysyphus - Pommard
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Re:NC 2012 : Rules and schedule Mon, 13 August 2012 20:45
Well, I tend to agree with Miguel on that...

You're coming out of nowhere, seems to know NC as if you had played it over the last 10 years...

During the registration phase of last year, we can't say there was any sort of manipulation.

Groups were pretty balanced, and you would realize then that the best teams are still going through the round robin. Some teams appear to be stronger during the tourney than they were on paper.

Picking an opponent is a priviledge you should earn the board, not on past achievements or on team's current individual ratings. That's why it's given to the 2 best teams after Round Robin.

With 4 or 5 german teams, they would have to play they fellow countrymen anyway...

Thx for the contribution, still good to have people involved.
Your opinion would have greater strength if we know who you are though...

[Aktualisiert am: Mon, 13 August 2012 20:48]

      
ACP Miguel
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Re:NC 2012 : Rules and schedule Mon, 13 August 2012 21:14
i was reading the post

first was a strong opinion

2nd nothing he edited as i replied

3rd is anyone from australia playing?

4th back to similar original post

BULL and u know the rest of the letters.

2nd account. welcome back X
      
TuS Tenniskasi
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Re:NC 2012 : Rules and schedule Tue, 14 August 2012 08:02
Hi NC-junkies Smile,

we played the last 2 years finals, and it was a pleasure to do it like it was in 2010 against CAT (although we lost Confused ). We had fixed start times for the 5 slots. First slot played Friday evening, 2. and 3. slot on Saturday and 4. and 5. on Sunday. Knowing that, the schedule was done with the line-ups, and I think it was really good for the spectators. To avoid the scheduling-difficulties of the last years final, I would suggest to fix that in the rules. As ever, the Caps should be allowed to modify this, if one of the players isn't able to play at the defined start times.

Why ruling that? We tried to arrange that with our opps also in 2011, but it was not enough time to do, cause sometimes caps are too busy doing something else to answer Wink . I think nobody needs a decisive game on a Wednesday evening, does anybody???....

Hope for a nice competition

und Spassssssssss Smile

Carsten Confused
      
Sysyphus - Pommard
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Re:NC 2012 : Rules and schedule Wed, 15 August 2012 22:24
Hi all,

Since major concerns are raised by some teams and that maybe 3 countries only might be able to present a full team, it'd be good to find a back up plan in case it really happens.

I'd not be thrilled to see 10 national and 6 TNTs in the tourney.
I know there's the spirit of NC : large teams = large crowds = numerous games = lobby in fire and tons of fun.

Would a NC be ok with teams of 4 matches a week instead of 5 ?

Does someone have a realistic plan if the likes of Netherlands, Finland, Italy, Austria, UK etc would be too short to form their own team ?

Again, this is not I want either but i think it'd be smart to consider the issue beforehand and design a back-up plan instead of waiting for the deadline and being left high and dry !
      
onyx puffin MAD
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Re:NC 2012 : Rules and schedule Wed, 15 August 2012 23:21
Weighing in with opinion when I am part of a large nation may seem a bit foolhardy, but here goes.
Instead of full transnational teams, might it be better to try to match up two nations so there is some identity and loyalty?

I would rather see this occur since it keeps closer to the spirit of the NC. Otherwise, such a tournament could become ho-hum and more like so many of the other team tournaments here.

[Aktualisiert am: Wed, 15 August 2012 23:22]

      
DrakeStorm
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Re:NC 2012 : Rules and schedule Thu, 16 August 2012 01:20
I agree with Onyx. Smaller countries should have to join up, not get random extra players from anywhere.

Geographically close would be ideal. Like Italy/Austria, Sweden/Netherlands or something like that.

I'd say it doesn't have to be a pure Nation's Cup - it could be a Regional Cup.

I thought there was already a rule that keep the same nationality players together (i.e. 2 players from Sweden can't be on 2 different teams). If there isn't a rule like that, there should be!



      
chrismmm_1987
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Re:NC 2012 : Rules and schedule Thu, 16 August 2012 03:33
Just my 0.02:

Quote:

Smaller countries should have to join up, not get random extra players from anywhere.


Totally agree. Otherwise it will result in a CL.

Quote:

Geographically close would be ideal.


I disagree. Even it is Nations Cup the large success in the past years were based on the great team spirit of most of the teams. It is better if nations play together in a TNT who are "mentally" close than regioanlly close.

Quote:

Sweden/Netherlands


Nice example. Wink

Quote:

I'd not be thrilled to see 10 national and 6 TNTs in the tourney.


If there is no other choice than creating 6 TNTs I can live with that. It's even better than the idea of DOW to organize a board game WORLD championsship with only 8 countries eligible to play. Wink
      
SMP-JenAck
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Re:NC 2012 : Rules and schedule Thu, 16 August 2012 09:08
Smaller teams (3, 4 players in the lineup ?) ? Players OK to play twice for a team in a week ?
i think let play one player twice in a week can be a option.
but maybe the second week another player play twice.

we are 4 players now.still searching and writing mails to all ex smp players.
i wrote also a pm to Leleline_J but she dont answer (maybe because she dont know me?).
maybe one of you know she well and can ask she for me?
also from Ninou orange i get no answer.we asked him also last year.

but i think better to make National Teams.if we have to many sharing teams its no more a Nation cup.

and sorry for my english if anyone have also the same problem as Denito Rolling Eyes
      
ACP Miguel
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Re:NC 2012 : Rules and schedule Thu, 16 August 2012 15:27
Smaller teams is a good option in my opinion

And i give the example, if NC is played by 4 members, then we go for a Portuguese Team (Me, Rui, Mary and Niamey - that i think will all agree on that). So it will give the chance for smaller countries to get their teams. And i think it should be allowed to participate with the shorter number of players. I think that so far u had to have 6 members in order to play 5 games each round. I consider it could be having 4 members period.

Geo Teams - sorry about that but BULLSHIT. Example Portugal nearby we have spain (that probably completes their own team like in previous years), then what france? morroco? Besides that geographically close is a not a good criteria to have a team. Bouding can be made all worldwide, and again i give TRUE as an example we had a great team spirit with Olof, Magic Hansen or Maia.

Drake
"I thought there was already a rule that keep the same nationality players together (i.e. 2 players from Sweden can't be on 2 different teams). If there isn't a rule like that, there should be!"

that rule is there already and already has applied. Again TRUE in one NC event we had another swedish player that wanted to play so we took him.

I dislike the idea of having 1 players playing 2 games. If that is 2 happen at least let DOW get some money and make the user hold 2 accounts Wink Now serious i dont like that a user has to play 2 games, neither saying the lowest ranked plays 2 times.

Cause do we want a NC that is thrilling and balanced? or we just some extra teams in RR to complete the groups and then all the majors go into KO phases... i dont like playing just to complete the groups, and that rule is clearly not good for smaller teams.

So overall i would be thrilled to have 4 games/per round with 4 players, meaning we would get Portugal Team Smile

      
Sysyphus - Pommard
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Re:NC 2012 : Rules and schedule Thu, 16 August 2012 20:43
Smaller teams advantadge :

1)Would help several national teams to show up : Finland, UK, Portugal, Netherlands, Italy and Swiss would probably as a lone entity. Which is closer to NC spirit.

Leftovers like Olle Boll, Kostas, GSV and maia could for a new TNT. Maybe with the help of Austrians.

2) More teams means more matches. I always favored bigger groups in the RR, to guarantee every player/team enough matches to have fun.

Cons :

Some big teams might need to break up into 2 pieces. I don't know if TuS, Red would be ok with that. Kasi is like chris : would be ok with several TNTs.


On the American side, smaller teams'd guarantee 3 teams for sure, maybe 4.


About regional grouping : I'm not sure it'd be good idea to force players to play with people they are not getting along with. Imagine Truck being forced to play with Will Very Happy
      
AAA_dea1
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Re:NC 2012 : Rules and schedule Thu, 16 August 2012 20:50
some ideas what alternatives there could be

V1) Leave everything, as it is
We have clear rules for TN teams.
If it turns out that we have more TN teams this year, than we used to have, so be it.

V2a) Play only 4 matches per round
It was like this in the first NC.

V2b) Play only 4 matches per round and give small teams more flexibility
We can't force nations with only 4 players to build a team, as there can well be reasons why somebody cannot play in a certain week or two.
But if we allow teams with only 4 players to play matches ahead of schedule, we could.
Example: One of my players cannot play on the days scheduled for clash#3. I PM the captain of our clash #3 opponent (and TD), telling him, that I have a player who cannot play in week#3, his available times before that are a,b,c. Team of clash#3 picks a player who is available at one of the suggested times, this match takes place earlier and is considered slot#1.

V3a) Players may be in lineup twice for small teams
We stay with 5 matches/week.
Teams with less than 6 members are allowed to line up the same player in 2 slots.
BUT - nobody may be in lineup twice a 2nd time, before all team members have been in lineup twice once. (So you cannot have your best player play twice all the time, you have to balance it)

V3b) Players may be in lineup twice for all teams
Every team is allowed to use that option as they like it, even if they would have enough players available (so a team could normally play with 5 different players, but against their strongest opponent or in the Final they can turn up with their 2 best players twice)

V4) Do it, as the Olympics do
Each country is allowed to have 1(!) team.
If your country needs you (= doesn't have a complete team yet) you have to play for your country.
If you don't make it to your own country's national team (or don't want to be there for whatever reason and they don't need you) you are free to play for any other country that doesn't have enough players.
The right to pick the national team goes to the captain of this country's best placed team in last NC (or the one with best ELO at a given time?).

Example how it would work:
Kostas has to play for Greece (unless 6 other Greek players show up who don't want him on their team Wink )
If another Greek player wants to play, he has to join Kostas for Greece.
Kasi has the right to pick the German team. He does so, and doesn't pick Mudda (maybe Mudda didn't ask to be picked, either Wink ). If Mudda wants to play, he can then ask Kostas and join the Greek team.

If you think that's completely crazy, envisage the many Chinese looking table tennis players at the Olympics, playing for various countries ...

Would that mean, that consolidated teams from the past years are torn apart? Not really, as there are many countries with maybe just 1 player. You're not the national team but want to stay together? Then take your complete team, and run after Mr Bean to play for Ireland, after Olle Boll to play for Sweden, after GSV to play for Belgium, find a Canadien, ...

-----------
Maybe we should have a board vote on these variants (and any others, that somebody comes up with)?
      
Hecki
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Re:NC 2012 : Rules and schedule Fri, 17 August 2012 00:29
The registration has already started. I'm sorry but this discussion is far too late.

v4: I think this is not practicable in this season. I think the most german teams for example are created. Who should be the boss of the one and only german team? One of the last years captains? Or the highest ranked player? Or the best german division A player? And whom should he chose? Is there any criteria? I'm sorry, v4 would cause too many problems.

v2a,b: My team has 8 players. Only 4 players each week? Oh nooooooo. In that case we had not chosen so many players.

v3a: Would be a too big advantage for smaller teams with strong players. Then there is no impulse for a team to search more players.


So i vote for v1 or v3b. Or for...

v5: Cancel NC for this year and search for a better solution 2013. But please 3-4 months before the tournament starts.

[Aktualisiert am: Fri, 17 August 2012 00:32]

      
Mr Bean
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Re:NC 2012 : Rules and schedule Fri, 17 August 2012 01:20
I agree with Hecki, that it is (too) late to make major changes.
The analogy of the Olympics with only one team per country doesn't quite hold, because if you know it far ahead then you can have a proper selection procedure.

My idea would be to keep things much as they are this year and if we really need changes, we should start looking into that early 2013 AT THE LATEST.
      
Sysyphus - Pommard
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Re:NC 2012 : Rules and schedule Fri, 17 August 2012 01:46
Well how could we know that some teams would struggle beforehand ?

Has anyone thought of it at all in January ? WOuld anyone be interested in discussing about it in March ? Probably not...

We can delay the start of NC for a couple weeks if need be, we are still more than one month before the opening. If the board says, well it's too late to make changes, then fine. B

At least discussion is open now. If decisions are then to be made for next year, discussion has to happen now, so that the board can vote while everybody is here.

Postponing leads to nothing because next year will be another different situation...



      
chrismmm_1987
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Re:NC 2012 : Rules and schedule Fri, 17 August 2012 02:25
IMHO a very good option would be combining dea's V1 with V2b, which means we put the flexibility of scheduling into the rules but stick with 5 matches.
This would allow smaller countries to participate with even 5 players (instead of 6).

I don't like V4 as we're do not wanna have the olympics, we wanna have a Nations Cup.
      
Requiem For A Dream
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Re:NC 2012 : Rules and schedule Fri, 17 August 2012 03:48
Quote:

V2b) Play only 4 matches per round and give small teams more flexibility
We can't force nations with only 4 players to build a team, as there can well be reasons why somebody cannot play in a certain week or two.
But if we allow teams with only 4 players to play matches ahead of schedule, we could.
Example: One of my players cannot play on the days scheduled for clash#3. I PM the captain of our clash #3 opponent (and TD), telling him, that I have a player who cannot play in week#3, his available times before that are a,b,c. Team of clash#3 picks a player who is available at one of the suggested times, this match takes place earlier and is considered slot#1.


Smile

My opinion : First nation Cup was the best nation cup with many country, many matches and it's start for the legend of NC.

they are many competition on the calendar and champion's league for TNT team... one or two TNT oki, after, NC is not NC... Sad

[Aktualisiert am: Fri, 17 August 2012 03:49]

      
TuS \/\/ill
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Re:NC 2012 : Rules and schedule Fri, 17 August 2012 12:09
Sysyphus wrote on Thu, 16 August 2012 19:43

Imagine Truck being forced to play with Will Very Happy


He should be so lucky, but that situation would be beautiful : ) Sven looks good in a dress

http://www.aspieweb.net/wp-content/uploads/2010/08/aspergers-love.jpg
      
TuS \/\/ill
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A bit disjointed but you hopefully get the ideas... Fri, 17 August 2012 13:30
On a more serious note. This is my Reply to Sysy's PM, thought i'd post here to see what people thought. More useful to see everyone's opinion than to just get Julien's (no offence!) The questions were:

1) Are 3 or 4 TNTs realistic in a Nation's Cup ?
2) Should we keep the rules about TNTs as they are or modify them ?
3) Should their be more criteria for teams to form a TNT : countries nearby, people getting along together, common interest...etc ?
4) Should we fancy stuff out of the box ? ie : changing the whole concept of the tourney ? Let Players eligible for TNTs to join any national team they want ? Smaller teams (3, 4 players in the lineup ?) ? Players OK to play twice for a team in a week ?

-------------------------------------

Hi Sysy... Out of the right order, but anyway... I'm similar to you - I don't have a precise opinion on all aspects, but moreover I can't really see the exact problem and what people (majority) would like to see done. Therefore tough to give a solution but anyway....

Point 3) For me personally as you know, I had a great NC last year and our team glued really well together. All of us had our most fun tournament ever and despite being from different countries I think UKB showed more team spirit than most non-TNTs. We pretty much all showed up to watch every game and support. I'm therefore thinking that TNTs being from geographically close countries is a bad idea, or at least un-necessary. UK and greece are a fair way apart and Belgium has little to do with us other than taking all our EU fees in Brussels... Razz

Take Britain... The only country I feel a remotely close geographical tie to is Ireland and lots of Irish people hate Britain with passion. My favourite and nearest 'European' country is France and not very far away - but there isnt likely to be an Anglo-Franco TNT. At the end of the day, france has a different language, currency, politics, well everything... Little in common except both countries like French women Razz And theres just one player (Bean) from Ireland so we couldnt make a TNT with just the two of us...

Where would you say is close to uk? ok if youre Swiss you have a wealth of choice... but not me... nearest countries west of Ireland are USA/Canada/Iceland, go North in a straight line and it's probably South Africa! If you allow TNTs, best criteria is 'getting along'. The tournament is to be enjoyed!

Point 2) Well I'd personally like to compete as UKB again as we enjoyed it so much, but at the same time I do realise it may be necessary to change the rules to allow more nations to compete. I haven't got my own ideal solution to this. Tough to come up with an answer until it is decided exactly what the problem is and what wants to be done about it. I'm not sure all players even agree there is a problem. Lots already in National teams dont mind playing TNTs at all - it's more games for them. The only rule suggestion I think is ridiculous is Kasi's suggestion of lineups being submitted based on when players can play. That is not in the players' interest having a set slot. For example I played a few daytime games etc. Maybe no-one in the team can play friday evening - then games are manually arranged anyway. Takes away any sort of skill in selecting your lineup. The germans often like to play their best player as rank 1 in lineup... We might feel we tactically have a better chance playing our weakest player as rank 1, and trying to win the other games with our stronger players...

Also the suggestion of 3 players in a team. For me this is ridiculous. There are 142 active german players on the NC list and another 12 good inactive ones. potential of 51 teams (ok unrealistic) just so UK can compete on its own. Seems a bit mad.

My only strong feeling is quite bold... If you take away the options of a TNT or make a team only 3 players strong so it has to compete with potentially 3 weak players then I feel your nation can ONLY have 1 team in the tournament to make it a level playing field for all nations... Germany doesn't have 2 football teams in the World cup... Well it did a long time back, remember 1966? It doesnt seem right that rules would be changed in this case so that the three UK players are in a 1-nation team and other countries can have ridiculous numbers of entries. Changing to a 3-player team would just about allow for one UK team but at least double the number of prospective teams from the big nations.


Point 1) I havent played in a wholly National team... I cant say that I would or wouldnt be annoyed at the number of transnat teams... Surely the spirit is to try and let the best people compete. UKB were ALL of Britain, ALL of belgium and ALL of Greece. We asked Hrundi/Greek to play (declined), davedavis was/is Belgian. We did everything to the rules. Didnt just select top players like a CL team like some people suggested. Was my first NC and tournament and tried my best to get a team together.

Having said that... IF the Faroe Islands had the worlds best sprinter, he couldnt compete in the 4x100m relay with other nations...

I think I'm right in saying the big 2 team tournaments are CL and NC. If you get rid of TNT teams in the NC (ie britain cant enter) then CL rules should be altered so I could, for example play with phil or steal stemayf from that crappy g70 Smile


Sorry it's long, but i try to answer properly Smile I did read all the comments on this thread before posting my opinions. Any rule change that forces me to play with Truck is great... Laughing

--------------------
I think in summary... The only ways Britain/Swiss/Austria etc can compete as 1 nation are
a) teams are of 3
b) players can play twice

For me, I've explained why i dont like point a). 1 UK team vs 10+ german teams seems like a stupid idea. As for point b) what does Kostas do? play every match?! i'd bet on him!

Is there a TNT option C? I wouldnt like it personally as it'd split up my team. But all TNT players are placed into a hat and teams are drawn. Would mean splitting up UK players, but sort of a fair way of allowing people to play maybe? Doesnt give TNT players any sort of advantage??
---------------------

Hope I may have helped a little from point of a TNT. I want to compete!

King Will
      
RMarkes
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Re:NC 2012 : Rules and schedule Fri, 17 August 2012 13:31
Hi all

IMHO a Nation Cup with a majority of TNTs sucks.

So what is the problem?
Finland, UK, Netherlands, Italy, Swiss, Austria, Canada, Belgium (all with teams in past NC) can't get 6 players to play 2012NC. I only see one solution for that, reduce the number of players for team and adjust the format.

How many players for team?
For that we need to know fast how many players that countries can get.
For start, i can say if the low limit is 4, we can have other new team: PORTUGAL Very Happy

Is too late for changes?
if you want to play a NC with GER, FRA and USA or a NCCL....go ahead
      
TuS \/\/ill
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Re:NC 2012 : Rules and schedule Fri, 17 August 2012 13:51
If player numbers are lessened...
yes, uk can play, probably netherlands swiss and austria....

so lots more 1-nation teams potentially.

But what about Kostas(Greece)? Danipo (I think Venezuela)? they'd be one man teams. Potentially could do a TNT. Lowering player numbers would allow more 1-nation teams... but there is for me a massive drawback Rui...

I think it'd really suck having for example 10 smaller countries there competing with every person available (no team selection) and then 10 German teams who can select their elites. That's not a 'cup' if the idea is winning for your 'nation'. You cant have 10 German teams in the Olympics/World Cup/Euros etc.. Limiting Germany's entrants is pretty unfair to all of its good players, but from my side it would be ridiculous to be playing in such a silly tournament... I wouldnt want to play that format... (lol and then there arent enough for a UK team Smile)

Not sure there is an easy answer without compromise. Im not picking on germany lol but I think they are the biggest and have lots of people wanting to play...

[Aktualisiert am: Fri, 17 August 2012 13:55]

      
Truckerteller
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Re:NC 2012 : Rules and schedule Fri, 17 August 2012 14:36
As far as I know, Italy has a team and hopefully the Netherlands as well, but that's not so sure. Can't speak for the other countries (haven't heard anything from FIN, so let's not jump to conclusions), but from what I've heard it's getting harder and harder. After 5 years or 10.000 games, TTR loses some of it's appeal it seems.

A format with 4 players for each team, and maybe an extra clash between the 2 best players of each team in case of a tie in the finals would be a good alternative, though I'd prefer to keep things as they are.

I have no problem with Germany having 10 teams and elite players. That's just how it is.
      
RMarkes
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Re:NC 2012 : Rules and schedule Fri, 17 August 2012 15:24
NC 2008 had 6 from Germany and 4 from France...dont see a problem there.
If i play for Portugal and dont win any game because all top players in the other nations...dont see a problem also. It will be my 5th time with TRUE and i enjoy very much playing with Olof and Maia since 2008. But if i had a chance to make a national team i will take that. Every years i try to find new players, even around 1400 points (1or 2 under radar Very Happy) but still with only 4. And i know changing for 4 players per team is also hard so maybe next year.
If nothing change....TRUE will be there (i hope)
      
Qorlas
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Re:NC 2012 : Rules and schedule Fri, 17 August 2012 18:26
I am going to give my personal view.

*Italy: I just sent PMs around, but I feel confident we will have a team. We have not yet a team assured but there is good movement around Italy this year.

*Rules: keep 5 players clashes.

*TNT: I am ok with them, but I strongly ask that "small" nations does really their best to build up a national team.
I went all the years out of the players pool to find players out of top 500 thanks to advices from my teammates. All the small countries should do that or at least show that they actively searched for new players.

We HAVE to search for new players interested in tournaments to give "fresh blood" to the community. I have not a good feeling about the "good chemistry" of previous TNT teams. This is a Nation Competition and TNT teams are conceded by the community to give a chance to all to play but not a right.

In my view UK can find 2-3 other players if they go out of the players pool. I am not sure about Portugal because I know thay try about it all the years.

Why to be against more teams from single nations? They just add teams and players to the competition!

My view about TNT situation:

1)TRUE
2) Swiss-Austria?
3) Belgium-Greece-Canada-Finland and all the rest of the world?

Remind: if you have 6 players from one country then you have to build up a national team.


To give you a "behind the curtain" view: a TNT between Italy and Austria was really possible last year at the end of August, but then we searched both more around the for more players and we made both our teams. From the point of view of Italy: do you think we searched players for our gain when we would have been able to go further in the tournament with Dea and Angel? We did that to stay in the spirit of the tournament that is the most inportant thing.

In conclusion: all that I need to join a TNT is to not send PMs around... that would give me a chance to join a higher seeded team but when we will reach playoffs... we will love it if we do that as Italy.
      
TuS \/\/ill
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Re:NC 2012 : Rules and schedule Fri, 17 August 2012 19:02
Qorlas wrote on Fri, 17 August 2012 17:26


In my view UK can find 2-3 other players if they go out of the players pool. I am not sure about Portugal because I know thay try about it all the years.



Firstly the UK is made of separate countries and if I had my way it would be an England team, but we have a Scottish man here too... So to start with it's technically a trans-nat...

Not quite sure how you can have an opinion on where we can find players from - I have tried!
UK players: Will, Robin Hood, Doodle7, Sarmad, Stemayf, Stephan1972,

**BREAKING NEWS** I spent a LOOOONG time going back through my mobile phone bills from 9-11months ago. Ive managed to bring Steve Mayfield out of retirement

Sarmad wont play, and both stephans hadnt been online in a long time and havent responded to their PMs... That leaves 4 of us confirmed. If Belgium have a few players this time then Vincent would have to not be part of 'ukb' as the squad would be too big...

Almost certainly this year the squad will be:
Will (captain) UK
Ironhorse UK
Robin Hood UK
Stemayf UK
Kostas GREECE
GSV BELGIUM (depending on Belgium's numbers)
Mr Bean IRE (substitute)

I have done my best... mostly uk and a couple of loners Smile
      
Mr Bean
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Re:NC 2012 : Rules and schedule Fri, 17 August 2012 21:31
PR Will wrote on Fri, 17 August 2012 19:02

Almost certainly this year the squad will be:
Will (captain) UK
Ironhorse UK
Robin Hood UK
Stemayf UK
Kostas GREECE
GSV BELGIUM (depending on Belgium's numbers)
Mr Bean IRE (substitute)

I have done my best... mostly uk and a couple of loners Smile


As i just replied to Will: there must be some misunderstanding here. To the best of my knowledge i haven't agreed to play for any other team - in fact i haven't even thought about any other team and i haven't been too drunk to remember what i did in at least 50 years Razz

Have been on the Dutch (have 2 nationalities) team since 2006 and we're still hoping to be able to have a team this year.

      
ACP Miguel
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Re:NC 2012 : Rules and schedule Fri, 17 August 2012 22:17
if u dont see any reason not to play with 4 members just allows us to play with 4 members. the player that plays extra game can be random pick or picked by the other team, honestly dont care. if it's ok for the majority then add that rule and we will play for Portugal
      
USA blubes
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Re:NC 2012 : Rules and schedule Fri, 17 August 2012 23:18
i'd rather watch / play the best 4 from portugal than some other random tn team

plus i get better odds to play miguel which everyone wants to see



      
ACP Miguel
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Re:NC 2012 : Rules and schedule Sat, 18 August 2012 00:03
http://www.tickipedia.net/wiki/NC_2010_-_Group_B#Round_4

been there done that!

still consider u shouldnt be allowed to play.

      
Qorlas
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Re:NC 2012 : Rules and schedule Sat, 18 August 2012 08:35
After less than 24 hours after I sent PMs around..... Italy has 6 players! (and I am waiting for 7 more answers, if everyone wishes to play we have a marginal risk at 2 teams Very Happy).


Regarding TNT: I hate the idea of TNT teams made during the national team register phase!
Let's do it according to the real rules of the competition that can be read in old threads... Until first deadline only attempts for national team can be done. After first deadline all the failed national teams can post their list of available players and TNT teams are made in that phase... Just to remain in the spirit of the rules that made great the competition!

If UK cannot make a national team then ok... they can make a TNT... but they CANNOT make a "public" TNT now!

[Aktualisiert am: Sat, 18 August 2012 11:36]

      
SMP-JenAck
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Re:NC 2012 : Rules and schedule Sun, 19 August 2012 00:59
hhmmm just a question..
what is with all this discussions about TRUE and UKB?
we accept they play the last 1-maybe 3 years in this way..
so in my eyes TRUE and UKB can stay as in the past.
about new TNT we need to decide after the deadline for the registration i think.

i would like to play but we are still only 4 players.
and i am still waiting for 4 answer.
but even we dont find some swiss players i am not sure if i like the idea to form new TNT because then its no more a Nation Cup.
But its only my way to think and my teammates can have/write her own idea.
      
Sysyphus - Pommard
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Re:NC 2012 : Rules and schedule Sun, 19 August 2012 02:25
The thing about UKB is that the team was already announced before any effort was made to form a british team.
And Will has made a 2 week effort to build his British team and we are still one month off deadline.

If the right to build a TNT is given because you were TNT the previous year, we will never see former national teams back in the game !

Sounds like many small national teams would like to represent their country rather than be part of a TNT.
I dont know why then we shouldnt try to go in that direction, this year or next year... After all, first NC was played with 4 players a team.

If big teams are not happy with it; they can still split into 2 teams and support each other. TuS 1 / TuS 2, Burgundy Red/ Bordeaux Red, Big BIP (Tinman)/ Small Bip (blubes) Very Happy, UK / B...


French teams are all French but split in three... National team spirit is still there with each team cheering for each other....
More teams, more fun...

[Aktualisiert am: Sun, 19 August 2012 02:28]

      
ACP Miguel
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Re:NC 2012 : Rules and schedule Sun, 19 August 2012 22:13
i agree with sysy here.

if we already played a NC like that and it went smoothly (i wasnt here by then but it is what i understand from what i read on this post)

if there are a bunch of nations with 4-6 members willing to play why shouldnt we bend the rules? We know that 4 members teams might have some issues with schedule, still we can be flexible and if not those u dont fulfill the rules are punished. no problem with that.

To other users that are saying that they already planned their teams and have 8-9 members, why not split?
Honestly now it seems the ones who were against TNT are now against small nations being allowed to play.

Then just simple say it and play a franco-german-usa cup, but then its our time to say dont call it Nations Cup, cause it seems we have a chance to get Germany, France, USA, Spain, Netherlands, Austria, Italy, Swiss?, Portugal, UK, Belgium?...(sorry if i missed some) so it would be the better country representation we had ever in NC.
      
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Re:NC 2012 : Rules and schedule Sun, 19 August 2012 23:44
TRUE Miguel schrieb am Sun, 19 August 2012 22:13

Honestly now it seems the ones who were against TNT are now against small nations being allowed to play.

Then just simple say it and play a franco-german-usa cup, but then its our time to say dont call it Nations Cup, ...


Thumbs Up
      
onyx puffin MAD
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Re:NC 2012 : Rules and schedule Mon, 20 August 2012 06:06
At some point soon, we have to decide if we are playing with 4 matches per round, or 5 matches per round. It makes a difference in the size of a team.

Many players do not enjoy having so many weeks off when tournament begins. (or even playing every other week as occurs with 8 + player teams) It can make overall interest in the tournament lag as well.

So let's make a decision. Part of decision remains on issue of 4 players versus 5 in a round, and to be honest, the question comes down to, are we okay with Tied matches? For when we did have 4 matches and not 5, ties were abundant.

Additionally, with just 4 matches, a single player can have a more dominant role in a Nations Cup. I was present in 2005, and I know Angel6 dominated, practically single-handedly carrying his team into the 4 team play-off.


On an aside: keep the spirit of the Nation's Cup in focus. Fun, National Teams, with the Transnational teams formed as needed. Hope the Transnational teams keep teammates from nations together and not onto separate teams.

Also, I sense an identity occurs when a TNT is formed and plays in the previous year's tournaments. SO Maybe, we can be graceful in trying to urge team formation, but look at issue as an issue of identity. Is there an identity that links the players on a team, like their nation. (I mean could I form a Steelers nation team of people who are Pittsburgh Steelers fans?) Cool Shocked Laughing (pick a futbol team of your choice Europeans)

[Aktualisiert am: Mon, 20 August 2012 06:22]

      
DrakeStorm
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Re:NC 2012 : Rules and schedule Mon, 20 August 2012 08:55
Not sure how it would work exactly, but any chance of having 2 different brackets or groups - one for big nations that play 5 matches, and the other group with 4.

Then maybe 5-6 big nations make it to KO rounds, and 2-3 small.

Then once in the KO, the small teams can use someone twice (i.e in the quarterfinals, semi-finals, and finals, the extra person has to be different.)

And does it matter anyway... Germany is going to win, why even play.. LOL. Unless we allow super Transnational teams!

Since I've been playing in NC, in the finals its been:
Germany 7 times (4 wins)
Austria 2 times (1 win)
Transnational 2 times
Spain 1 time (1 Win)

Last 3 years all Germany and the Super Transnational Teams (with CAT slipping in there once)

      
toutoune - Morgon
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Re:NC 2012 : Rules and schedule Mon, 20 August 2012 10:41
my personal vote: lets go for the rules we had in the first NC
4 clashes per week only, to allow max of country teams, and more teams globally, then more fun
(remember 2005, so reds have a chance to win again Very Happy )
      
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