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kostasss
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SOMETHING HAS TO BE DONE WITH THESE GUYS Wed, 16 January 2013 17:38
this afternoon i started a multi game with tchou pinette, le goupil, the beef and PULPE 13! we started to draw colors and before someone made a second move i asked them to be excused form the game because i had an urgent work. i told them that i had 2 big (se ny - van mon)and some good colors and i asked them to start a new game although we were at the beginning.

i left the game and when i came back i relaized that they had played it.

i received 2 messages from legoupil and beef saying that were sorry about that and that PULPE 13 wanted to continue the game.

first: SOMETHING HAS TO BE DONE WITH THESE GUYS
PULPE 13 is one of them
i dont know how we can isolate them

second: in my opinion all the other players should not have continue the game despite of PULPE 13. i dont want to accuse the other 3 (le goupil won the game and told me that he owes me the points Smile ) but i think we should set some unwriten rules for other similar occasions
      
SMP-JenAck
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Re:SOMETHING HAS TO BE DONE WITH THESE GUYS Wed, 16 January 2013 17:44
what you wanna do?
you can`t make anything as put them on your ignore list and hope that other players have more sportsmanship

but to be honest
sometimes i ask my why player start a multi during they are working?easier to ask one player to leave and you lose less points if your opponent don`t agree
      
LMT ww
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Re:SOMETHING HAS TO BE DONE WITH THESE GUYS Thu, 17 January 2013 06:41
Sorry kostasss,

stop complaining. YOU take the risk playing durning YOUR worktime and everybody else have to respect this?

NO! I told you once in a similiar situation that I don't think this is a fair behaviour.... regardless if you or your opponent has the sweet tix and great colours.

Decide whether you can start a game (even a two player game) and finish it or not....
And if something else happens and you have to leave it is your problem. You can ask and people can stop playing, but in my oppinion you can't demand it.

WW
      
Sysyphus - Pommard
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bot players Thu, 17 January 2013 07:26
Several things :

*) To report a bot-player or bad sportsmanship, use that
thread
One of the most popular thread in our forum, unfortunately.

*) It's not as if Kostas was doing it on a regular basis. It's not like blubes in his shop... I've played hundreds of games with him, and I'm not even sure I had to leave a game one single time on his request.
He's basically never complaining in the forum either, trust that it was an urgent and unpredictable matter. We are guys nice enough to do a favor to another top-player.

*) Poulpe13 could have had the normal first experience of a top-player game with a bot. A beginner may not be aware of tacit agreements between players.
Alas, Poulpe is a regular multi player, and has apparently enjoyed pissing his opponents off. Though, it's the first time I hear that kind of stuff about him.

*) Unwritten rules are by definition harder to transmit. I think most top-players make sure to share those values and to transmit them.

Solutions in a multi when a player decides to play on a bot.

a) Stall the game, hoping that the opponent would get tired of waiting more than you do, then leave.

b) Team block the bug.
He may not be happy with it and would leave, tired of it. At least, the bug would not leave with a handful of free points for being a bully.
It shows solidarity and power. Last time it happened to me, I actually remember that Goupil won the game too (while others, AperfectCircle, Knockando and I) were killing our games to block the bug. We were actually discussing the block strategy in the chatbox.

c) If nothing can stop him/her, try to find an explanation by pm, and/or report the player concerned in that particular thread according to the feedback, if there's any.

[Aktualisiert am: Thu, 17 January 2013 07:27]

      
kostasss
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Re:bot players Thu, 17 January 2013 14:19
sorry wostwuist!!

its very odd to refer to me saying " stop complaining" and not to say a word about someone who plays with a robot and wins.

You have to know that sometimes something may happen even outside working hours. i have played many many games with all of the top players in here and they were very few occasions that i was obliged to stop a game.

i didnt demand from anyone to stop playing, i just asked it and this is the way i think we should behave in similar situations.
If you dont regard what PULPE did as wrong why is it that the other 3 players of our game wanted to leave immediately??

your referance in this post is unacceptable and shows empathy!!

      
G7 womble
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Re:bot players Thu, 17 January 2013 17:26
PULPE13 wanted to do it again with Goupil earlier today.
LeGoupil lost his connection a few times and PULPE asked me to continue to play on. Which I did not do, but waited until LeGoupil was back.
I have noticed recently a few times, that when someone loses connection, people continue to play (happened to me as well). I might understand that (although this is nor the spirit of a game), if you play with someone you don't know, but people knowing each other deserve another behaviour. I can understand kostas' fustration. Like Sysy I have played hundreds of games with kostas....he never leaves.

[Aktualisiert am: Thu, 17 January 2013 17:28]

      
LMT ww
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Re:bot players Thu, 17 January 2013 17:28
Hi Kostasss,

this article shows empathy for sure, because in a certain way I can understand your opponent. I didn't know you have a shop(when I get sysy's post right) and it can happen and probably for you SHOULD happen that customers walk in. Fine. You like to play ttr. Fine too.

It happened to me twice in 3 days that you left a game because of work. NOT FINE FOR ME. If I start a game, I start it with the intention to finish it. If something comes up at MY side, I will ask my opponent to leave with me.

But I won't post him as a botplayer if he chooses not to do so.
It is my problem if something happens even if a can't control it.

You asked me to leave and I left. I never ever finished a game vs a bot.

But I decided not to play with you again, because I don't like to start a game and be left alone because something comes up. It can happen anytime for sure but in your case it looks to me like the possibility to be left alone is higher than in games vs any other players.

After this discussion probably more people know, that it could happen, that you have to leave. So everyone can decide to play with you and share the risk the game have to be canceled. If I know about this and I be willing to do so, no problem.

I don't like players who finish vs bots. Most of the higher ranked players will leave anyway.

But I still think it is your problem and not the problem of your opponent if you can't finish a game.

WW
      
kostasss
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Re:bot players Thu, 17 January 2013 21:28
dear wostwuist

you said that i have a shop but i dont. i am a civil engineer!

you say that during the 3 days that we played together i left our game twice.
But you didnt read sysys and evas post with whom i have played HUNDREDS of times and they admit i never left a single game.

i dont have to proove anything to you and i dont care if we ll play together again or not but your behaviour shows that a top player is not someone with only big scores and ranks like you but someone who respects his co-players without empathy and selfishness.

With your posts you seem to be trying to stigmatize someone of TTR family.

Quoting your words:
"But I decided not to play with you again, because I don't like to start a game and be left alone because something comes up. It can happen anytime for sure but in your case it looks to me like the possibility to be left alone is higher than in games vs any other players.

After this discussion probably more people know, that it could happen, that you have to leave. So everyone can decide to play with you and share the risk the game have to be canceled."

Its a pitty
      
Sysyphus - Pommard
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Re:bot players Thu, 17 January 2013 21:39
(just passing) Blubes has a shop, he was just as an example of someone who is regularly botted. kostas does not at all. (just gone)
      
AGT-DN
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Re:bot players Thu, 17 January 2013 22:08
Maybe there are some misunderstandings within this thread as the most of us are NOT english native speakers...neither am I.

For instance dictionary says:

empathy:
The intellectual identification with or vicarious experiencing of the feelings, thoughts, or attitudes of another; One may need to have a certain amount of empathy before being able to experience compassion.

Don't take words too personally, they maybe are not meant the way you get them....
      
LMT ww
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Re:bot players Thu, 17 January 2013 22:20
Sorry Kostasss,

but I don't want to "stigmatize" you, I have just another oppinion, whose problem it is, if someone has to leave a game regardless it is because of work or losing connection or anything else.

I didn't change my mind to "kostasss is an unfair player" or something. I don't believe so and I didn't say so.

Still I prefer to play my games to end and think everybody can decide on his own whether he will share the risk that you have to go.

In a community like this with so many members will be many different opinions and not everyone will everytime agree. I accept you have another view to the topic and I made my decision about the risk. Hope you can accept that we don't agree this time.

I don't want this discussion end in accusations, so I will stop posting in this topic.

WW

If there is anything else you want to discuss with me feel free to send me a pm.
      
Sysyphus - Pommard
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Re:bot players Fri, 18 January 2013 00:06
Well, more than being NON-English native speakers, which CAN be an obstacle, the use of CAPITAL letters does NOT help to soften the TONE of a conversation. Just MY opinion Very Happy

[Aktualisiert am: Fri, 18 January 2013 00:07]

      
AGT-DN
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Re:bot players Fri, 18 January 2013 00:19
...just like drive-by-commentaries (already gone)
      
SY/\/ \/\/ill
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Re:SOMETHING HAS TO BE DONE WITH THESE GUYS Fri, 18 January 2013 01:04
I bet Peter de Zeeuw could fix it :S
      
Sysyphus - Pommard
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Re:bot players Fri, 18 January 2013 01:30
Well, the thread was open to solve an issue about bots in multi players.

There are a couple of worthy answers which brings a general solution for an exceptional problem.
Out of womble and my answers, all the rest is then drive-by commentaries.

Tacit agreement in the community is clear : when a player, top or not, is botted in a 2er or in a multi we all leave if we know the sportsmanship of that particular player.

What is also clear is community's advice do not play with POULPE13.

In a 2er, the problem is easy to handle and has been discussed over and over. A reminder does not hurt.
In a multi it might be trickier, and kostas needed an answer.


Misunderstandings because of a tricky communication are ok.
But if the style does not help the content, which was my drive not-so-by point, then it is not a misunderstanding anymore... it may just be bad communication (I don't consider myself as a good communicator either...).

[Aktualisiert am: Fri, 18 January 2013 01:48]

      
AGT-DN
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Re:bot players Fri, 18 January 2013 18:48
"drive-by" was meant as a joke, just like I thought your post before was meant to be, so double misunderstanding Confused

Back to topic:

I don't see a difference between 2er and multis here:

If you don't believe your opp has the same playing ethics like you and you don't want any issues in this regard, just don't play games with him!

It doesn't matter imo if it's a question of

1) blocking allowed vs blocking=unfair or
2) fast play vs chatty play/thinking tactics or like in this case

3) playing a bot when the opp leaves (for what reason ever) vs quitting a game when the opp leaves

respectively the other way round:

4) leaving a game after it has started (for what reason ever) vs playing a game till the end/only starting a game if you for sure have enough time to finish.

Add Pulpe13 to your blacklist and this won't happen again; I really have no idea what else there could be done (to come back to the headline of this thread), I don't think DoW will close an account due to colliding playing ethics.
      
AAA_dea1
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Re:bot players Fri, 18 January 2013 19:04
The only interesting question I see here is:
What are the other players in a multi (Goupil and Beef in this case) supposed to do?

a) leave the game
risking that the "bad guy" gets all the points against 3 bots - but maybe convincing him to leave, too (if he sees all the others do it)

b) stay in the game jointly blocking the "bad guy" - telling him he can of course leave any time he wants (and if he eventually does, leave aswell)

c) stay in the game and continue normally

other than that it's simple
*) if a "non etiquette player" continues his behaviour even after being told, I won't play him
*) if a "good guy" frequently opens games he cannot end (I have no idea whether that's true for Kostas or not), that's indeed a nuisance and I won't play him either
      
THEBEEF
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  Re:bot players Sat, 19 January 2013 02:28
Bonsoir,

Like my name appears, I feel obliged to express my feeling.

Kostass is not my best friend, but I play multi with or against him since many years, I never have had any problems with him.

Recently, but before this troubble, he asked me to leave his game and wrote in the lobby, I'm too slow.

Whatever that, when he asked to leave his game I did it immediately.

No needs to know if he has a customer in his shop or his boss came at the office, or he has bad cards or anything else.

We play thousands of game. Do you believe, than abort one game, is so important !!!!!

I hope people leave a game only when they've an emergency or good reasons and I cannot understand partners of the game try to take benefits of the situation.

As I told, I leave each time I think it is not a deliberated act. If I return in the game, it's with the unique intention to block the one or these are staying to take profits.

Philippe.

[Aktualisiert am: Sat, 19 January 2013 11:33]

      
SYN Stephan1972
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Re:SOMETHING HAS TO BE DONE WITH THESE GUYS Mon, 21 January 2013 19:12
Its funny how the etiquette varies from site to site. I also play on games asobrain. If you leave your game 5 times in a MONTH you are banned for a MONTH from playing - automatically. No matter what the reason - bad connection, real life emergency...

If all agree to leave the ban doesn't apply. I always offer a restart if someone misclicks their settlement placement or if they lose connection before placement. Otherwise we always play on.

Guess there is a difference between a 5-10 minute and a 45 minute game
      
Taka Goupil Hermitage
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Re:SOMETHING HAS TO BE DONE WITH THESE GUYS Wed, 23 January 2013 10:56
Ok. My two coins.
Happened recently for maf to want to finish a game and I had to get back and just slow the game down (stop it actually) at a point that he had to quit. He even said thank you then to help him cool down.
This is because maf is reasonable.
Some players just find it a challenge to piss the good players off.

Honnestly, I believe that if everytime there was a bot we would go on playing, games would be fast and wins/losses would balance themselves. This would avoid spending hours trying to talk with someone who either really wants to wait or really wants to stay in a game.

Playing between gentlemen (and gentlewomen) is another way to have a quick restart decision. We are in the games to play, I sometimes find annoying to wait 5 to 10 minutes for a player that might/might not come back (danipo did that yesterday : we waited 5 mins, then restart, and he happily came back after 10 min. Someone at the door, if I remember well. Except it was not my door...)

This being said, I still owe 8 points to Kostas.
      
TuS Tenniskasi
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Re:SOMETHING HAS TO BE DONE WITH THESE GUYS Fri, 25 January 2013 16:05
All because of a ranking system.....
      
Sysyphus - Pommard
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Re:Etiquette solutions Fri, 25 January 2013 17:05
Well Stephan's post made me think over a solution :

We should have the possibility to classify the game we want to play :

*) You want to play a "competitive" game, etiquette, defined by the community, applies. Games are played on Karma 5

*) You are not on TTR online to play a competitive game, just to have some fun online with friends, you do not want to deal with an etiquette, (which is an heresy to me but let's consider everybody's opinion) then select the "non-competitive" option...


By playing a "non-competitive" game, you'd then take the risk that a player would play on your bot.
So that some players would not use that "non-competitive" feature to justify the fact that they play on bots, games opened by a 1500/1550+ player are automatically classified as "competitive".


Competitive etiquette could be moderated by some of us here.
If you do not respect the etiquette, we could use a range of gradual weapons :

1st time : Pedagogic warning, sending the etiquette by pm for the 1st time you do not respect it.

2nd time : Your karma goes down back to 3. (equivalent as a short ban) You then need to go play some non-competitive games to get your karma high enough to play competitive games, which are all set Karma 5.

3rd time : your karma goes back to 1. (equivalent as a longer ban)

4th time : you can not play competitive games anymore (equivalent as a definitive ban from competitive games, but you could still play "non-competitive games". Not respecting the etiquette of the competitive community does not mean you do not respect DoW behavioral standards to play online).

This would be more efficient than a warning thread.
Days of wonder could trust some of us and let us moderate the competitive community. I think the community has shown responsability over the last years.

Obviously, this would require a precise and short etiquette.

*) What to do when a bot appears in your game in a 2er or in a multi.
*) Block is, by definition, acceptable, and not an issue.
*) any other idea

[Aktualisiert am: Fri, 25 January 2013 17:07]

      
Taka Goupil Hermitage
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Re:SOMETHING HAS TO BE DONE WITH THESE GUYS Mon, 28 January 2013 09:42
Sysyphus,

With all due respect, don't you think this is not proportionate ?
It is a game, and does not have to be overly competitive.
A new etiquette/karma system ? Why not even a new ranking system, with results agreed between gentlemen/women ?
All of that is nice and works well with tournaments, but regular games should stay fast and fun.
I believe people should be happy to be known for their talent more than their score/ranking.

      
    
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