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VerfasserThema
tank commander
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bunkers & LOS Thu, 29 August 2013 12:14
A funny thing happened to me in a play through of Meat Grinder the other day.

My opponent moved some of his center infantry to the caves on the backside of the hills on the Japanese left. I had killed the arty in the bunker and the bunker was empty. I had some infantry on the front of the hills.

He fired one of his infantry through the bunker and got a hit on one of my infantry. I commented that the bunker should block LOS and he said "strange" then preceded to take another "blocked" shot through the bunker for another hit.

I had heard of LOS bugs but never encountered it is this scenario. As my opponent made those moves I assume my opponent was aware of this. The thing is, I would be obliged to play by the rules and would not take advantage of a bug like that. However, after any opponent used it I would do so too, although I did not do so in this game and would still honor the rules in future games.

Take note that I did not make any other comments after my opponent took those two "illegal" shots. I just let it go and continued playing. I was not really upset as I figured that many players, once aware of such a thing, would use it during online games.

Any other thoughts on this?

By the way, I have played this scenario many times (one of my favorites) and I sealed a cave for the first time ever. Usually my Marines are so busy firing that they do not have time to mess with the caves.



      
gonzalan
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Re:bunkers & LOS Thu, 29 August 2013 14:04
Re:Pacific Theater Tournament/Overlord Scenario Thu, 15 August 2013 06:46

Sam has pointed out that there is a bug in this scenario that I missed. Field bunkers do NOT block line of sight. Instead of changing anything, I am going to keep the scenario the same. So, please be aware that you can 'shoot' through a field bunker. I am going to allow it for this scenario. It will be in the description.

Thanks Sam. Maybe someday there will be an update to the online game. We can only hope.

Eric

The above is from Eric concerning MARKHAM VALLEY, so appears that it is a known bug. Have played one particular SFTF scenario, name escapes me, where it mentions that certain rules DON"T apply online as in the game and have always asked my opponent as to how he would like to play it, as if f2f or how it plays online, he has always gone the online way...so rules ignored and we both play that way.

Nicely done to refrain from commenting and for being an honorable warrior! And sealing a cave, always nice to mess with the IJA teleporting system!!
      
sam1812
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Re:bunkers & LOS Thu, 29 August 2013 14:47
At first, I wondered if it could be some quirk specific to the SFTF.

Now that it's been observed in an Official scenario, definitely file a bug report.

Now I need to play some Meat Grinder or Sugar Loaf, and see if the Japanese Arty Bombard / Cave-sealing bug happens there, too.
      
gonzalan
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Re:bunkers & LOS Thu, 29 August 2013 15:27
sam1812 wrote on Thu, 29 August 2013 06:47

At first, I wondered if it could be some quirk specific to the SFTF.

Now that it's been observed in an Official scenario, definitely file a bug report.

Now I need to play some Meat Grinder or Sugar Loaf, and see if the Japanese Arty Bombard / Cave-sealing bug happens there, too.



Yes, Sam, the NEED to play more is strong in all of us! Can actually feel my trigger finger itching at the mere thought of playing more!
      
JJAZ
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Re:bunkers & LOS Thu, 29 August 2013 18:12

Trigger finger!
Check this out Belgians finest.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fzWQV5OiQQQ


gonzalan wrote on Thu, 29 August 2013 15:27

sam1812 wrote on Thu, 29 August 2013 06:47

At first, I wondered if it could be some quirk specific to the SFTF.

Now that it's been observed in an Official scenario, definitely file a bug report.

Now I need to play some Meat Grinder or Sugar Loaf, and see if the Japanese Arty Bombard / Cave-sealing bug happens there, too.



Yes, Sam, the NEED to play more is strong in all of us! Can actually feel my trigger finger itching at the mere thought of playing more!

      
tank commander
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Re:bunkers & LOS Thu, 29 August 2013 22:05
sam1812 wrote on Thu, 29 August 2013 08:47

At first, I wondered if it could be some quirk specific to the SFTF.

Now that it's been observed in an Official scenario, definitely file a bug report.

Now I need to play some Meat Grinder or Sugar Loaf, and see if the Japanese Arty Bombard / Cave-sealing bug happens there, too.



I should check out any if any official scenario (I think there is at least one) where a bunker is not occupied at game start and see if it blocks LOS.

It may be that the LOS code for these scenarios only took the starting occupying unit into account and not the bunker itself. I am not sure how the programming for this works.

By the way, here is the link to the log file turn in which this happened:

http://www.daysofwonder.com/memoir44-online/en/battle/?id=37 419306#replay:turn=10

      
stevens
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Re:bunkers & LOS Thu, 29 August 2013 22:07
Maybe the infantry in the SFTF scenarios are just better marksmen. Even though the bunker itself blocks LOS they are shooting through the back door and out the front viewing slot.
Rolling Eyes Twisted Evil Shocked Laughing
      
Dietrich von Kleist
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Re:bunkers & LOS Thu, 29 August 2013 23:17
stevens wrote on Thu, 29 August 2013 22:07

Maybe the infantry in the SFTF scenarios are just better marksmen. Even though the bunker itself blocks LOS they are shooting through the back door and out the front viewing slot.
Rolling Eyes Twisted Evil Shocked Laughing



Laughing Laughing Laughing

I think they are shooting OVER the bunker with periscope weapons like this:

http://www.rifleman.org.uk/Images/LEtrenchperiscoped1.jpg
      
stevens
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Re:bunkers & LOS Fri, 30 August 2013 17:07
Dietrich von Kleist wrote on Thu, 29 August 2013 17:17



I think they are shooting OVER the bunker with periscope weapons like this:

http://www.rifleman.org.uk/Images/LEtrenchperiscoped1.jpg


EXACTLY!
      
tank commander
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Re:bunkers & LOS Fri, 30 August 2013 18:00
stevens wrote on Thu, 29 August 2013 16:07

Maybe the infantry in the SFTF scenarios are just better marksmen. Even though the bunker itself blocks LOS they are shooting through the back door and out the front viewing slot.
Rolling Eyes Twisted Evil Shocked Laughing


Ah, but it is just not in SFtF in which this happens.
      
stevens
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Re:bunkers & LOS Fri, 30 August 2013 18:51
tank commander wrote on Fri, 30 August 2013 12:00

stevens wrote on Thu, 29 August 2013 16:07

Maybe the infantry in the SFTF scenarios are just better marksmen. Even though the bunker itself blocks LOS they are shooting through the back door and out the front viewing slot.
Rolling Eyes Twisted Evil Shocked Laughing


Ah, but it is just not in SFtF in which this happens.


I'll make sure to be careful of those more efficient marksmen in my ONLINE play. Thanks for the warning John. Confused
      
JFKoski
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Re:bunkers & LOS Sat, 31 August 2013 04:21
For awhile now I've known that empty bunkers on hills don't block line of site in SFTF. It took awhile to duplicate this in an official scenario, like First Assault Wave. I didn't think about the bunkers on hills in The Meat Grinder. I'll add that scenario to the ones with problems in our memoir wiki.

[Aktualisiert am: Sat, 31 August 2013 04:22]

      
stevens
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Re:bunkers & LOS Sat, 31 August 2013 15:53
JFKoski wrote on Fri, 30 August 2013 22:21

For awhile now I've known that empty bunkers on hills don't block line of site in SFTF. It took awhile to duplicate this in an official scenario, like First Assault Wave. I didn't think about the bunkers on hills in The Meat Grinder. I'll add that scenario to the ones with problems in our memoir wiki.

Thanks for being faithful to keep up with these bugs.
      
van Voort
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Re:bunkers & LOS Sun, 01 September 2013 08:52
For those of us who pretty much only play online, how the game is online is how it is.

This is why I ask lots of rules questions when I play ftf
      
tank commander
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Re:bunkers & LOS Mon, 02 September 2013 16:05
van Voort wrote on Sun, 01 September 2013 02:52

For those of us who pretty much only play online, how the game is online is how it is.

This is why I ask lots of rules questions when I play ftf



It is unfortunate that the online version has so many "bugs" where the rules are misplayed. It seems like many of these may never get corrected.

This leads many online players off on the wrong road and of course poses problems when some of those players play ftf and perhaps on Vassal.

Too bad that DOW did not provide links to the rules directly from the online version.

      
stevens
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Re:bunkers & LOS Mon, 02 September 2013 18:13
tank commander wrote on Mon, 02 September 2013 10:05


It is unfortunate that the online version has so many "bugs" where the rules are misplayed. It seems like many of these may never get corrected.

This leads many online players off on the wrong road and of course poses problems when some of those players play ftf and perhaps on Vassal.

Too bad that DOW did not provide links to the rules directly from the online version.



Actually John, if you pass your mouse over a terrain hex, the index cards for ALL objects on that hex including the hex are displayed. Also, if you go to the Green Information I for each scenario, it will give you a hyperlink to the rules for that scenario.
      
tank commander
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Re:bunkers & LOS Mon, 02 September 2013 18:35
stevens wrote on Mon, 02 September 2013 12:13

tank commander wrote on Mon, 02 September 2013 10:05


It is unfortunate that the online version has so many "bugs" where the rules are misplayed. It seems like many of these may never get corrected.

This leads many online players off on the wrong road and of course poses problems when some of those players play ftf and perhaps on Vassal.

Too bad that DOW did not provide links to the rules directly from the online version.



Actually John, if you pass your mouse over a terrain hex, the index cards for ALL objects on that hex including the hex are displayed. Also, if you go to the Green Information I for each scenario, it will give you a hyperlink to the rules for that scenario.


Hi.

I was aware of how to bring up the terrain card. But when I last tried that, somehow only part of the card was visible with most of the info being blocked. I am not sure what was happening there.

As to the link, I did not know about that and I wonder how many online players miss that feature.
      
stevens
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Re:bunkers & LOS Mon, 02 September 2013 20:38
tank commander wrote on Mon, 02 September 2013 12:35


Hi.

I was aware of how to bring up the terrain card. But when I last tried that, somehow only part of the card was visible with most of the info being blocked. I am not sure what was happening there.

As to the link, I did not know about that and I wonder how many online players miss that feature.


Again this is mentioned in the ONLINE TUTORIAL. But again, you would probably be correct in assuming that many folks rarely look at the tutorial.
      
JFKoski
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Re:bunkers & LOS Mon, 09 September 2013 00:03
Found another official scenario with bunkers on hills: Slopes of Mount Austen.

Three scenarios didn't make it to the official tab last December because of this problem:
Po Valley,
Crucifix Hill, and
Alpha Yellow.

I post them (in rotation) in my SFTF spot or in my friend's.

Others have a Po Valley scenario, so I call the one I post, "Italy: The Gothic Line" since this is what it was called when I first printed and played it, all those years ago.

Alpha Yellow is pretty weak (not because of the bunker), and people don't like it, so I don't know if/when I'll post that again.
      
    
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