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VerfasserThema
player691683
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Houserules to overcome UP races/abilities? Thu, 07 November 2013 13:45
There are a few things in Smallworld that just isnt very fair.

Dwarves has allways been and will allways be hopelessly UP. They can be on par with other races IF the conditions are perfect. If not, they just plain suck. It's allmost impossible to get AND hold those 3 mines for very long. Compare that to trolls, who can easily get those 5-6 well defended regions that tend to stay for a while.

So I was wondering what you could do if you wanted to even it out?

Make dwarfs a (4)? Or allow them to stay with 2 dwarf tokens (if possible) at mines when going into decline?

Also, the new catapult rules sucks too (if you play it on iPad you can only shoot ONE (!) time with the catapult, making it allmost worthless as a (4) ability).

Do you still play like you can shoot endlessly after deploying it? Or perhaps make it a (5)?
      
masterdruid817
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Re:Houserules to overcome UP races/abilities? Thu, 07 November 2013 15:13
Can't help you on the catapult issue, don't have BNA. However, making them a 4 would probably make them balanced. So would giving them a built-in tomb power. (Tomb lets you keep all guys in decline and redeploy them one last time. From underground.)
      
masterdruid817
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Re:Houserules to overcome UP races/abilities? Thu, 07 November 2013 15:23
I just read the catapult rules. Seems fine to me, it's movement, immunity, and combat bonus all in one! Probably going to add it to my list of "devious sorcerer combos."
      
player691683
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Re:Houserules to overcome UP races/abilities? Thu, 07 November 2013 19:54
masterdruid817 wrote on Thu, 07 November 2013 15:23

I just read the catapult rules. Seems fine to me, it's movement, immunity, and combat bonus all in one! Probably going to add it to my list of "devious sorcerer combos."


Yeah, but as a (4), it kinda sucks imho

Compare it to commando (4), giving you -1 on ALL conquests.

Immunity on ONE region and being able to shoot ONE time is just not enough to compensate for the (4).

Commando and heroic just do it much better than catapult atm, no doubt.

      
AngryMarine
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Re:Houserules to overcome UP races/abilities? Thu, 07 November 2013 21:08
While I have nothing against house rules as long as they stay house ones, I will never understand the desire to apply them. As a little kid I used to play a lot of board games and some rules seemed too complicated, some - too unfair. I was a big fan of house rules at that period of my life. Now I have no idea why people are so eager to simplify things or to make things more difficult when they are already very difficult.
Take Dwarves! Yes, it is a very special race. It may seem underpowered because of the quantity, but we should also consider the Power it goes with and the combos that are opposed to the dwarves combo, besides don't forget the quantity of players and the map! I have witnessed several times when players took Dwarves on the first turn on the 4 and 5 players map and were victorious in the end! On the two player map in most cases it is a bad idea to take Dwarves in the beginning, but you can take them later on the 9th turn when they collected some coins. Why do you think that all races should be powered equally? I think that it is the difference of races and combinations that makes players invent different strategies and that is why Small World is never boring.
      
OneBagTravel
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Re:Houserules to overcome UP races/abilities? Thu, 14 November 2013 17:01
I don't think anyone has successfully fixed the Dwarves with this game other than giving them an additional Dwarf. I'd love to hear and official comment from the game designer to hear what they say about the race.
      
Dan42hitchikers
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Re:Houserules to overcome UP races/abilities? Thu, 14 November 2013 19:08
Well for a start im not sure he speaks English. But echoing earlier points, i dont think that the dwarves need to be "fixed". It's clear even for a novice that they won't be a strong race and many will avoid them because of that, as if they carry with them some kind of taboo. But the essence of the game is of combinations, and at which point these combinations are most advantageous. Not that it is a frequent occurance, but i have found dwarves to be a solid mid race in larger player games, because people avoid you, on the basis that you are devoid of a threat. Thereby giving you better control of the board, with their benefit staying in decline. Each race has been tested and chosen with a particular race count because that is the way the designer wished to implement them, you would be better off looking for situations that they are effective in IMO.
      
philippos42
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Re:Houserules to overcome UP races/abilities? Sun, 09 March 2014 00:58
I mostly agree with the above comment. I have been very scornful toward Barricade (from BNA) and Will-O-Wisps (from Underground), because I was comparing them to abilities that could spread out well. But then I noticed that after the middle of the game, Barricade and Will-O-Wisps can actually become better choices than the other high-pointing abilities, because they reward conquering defended positions.

It's a matter of what's good in context.

That said, White Ladies still seem very bad. I wonder if the costing system broke down with them. Oh, well, we can just leave coins on them until late game, unless they have one of the "good" White Lady abilities (Heroic, Catapult, and Stout seem OK with them).
      
blaxnlion
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Re:Houserules to overcome UP races/abilities? Sun, 09 March 2014 19:45
player691683 wrote on Thu, 07 November 2013 13:45

There are a few things in Smallworld that just isnt very fair.

Dwarves has allways been and will allways be hopelessly UP. They can be on par with other races IF the conditions are perfect. If not, they just plain suck. It's allmost impossible to get AND hold those 3 mines for very long. Compare that to trolls, who can easily get those 5-6 well defended regions that tend to stay for a while.

So I was wondering what you could do if you wanted to even it out?

Make dwarfs a (4)? Or allow them to stay with 2 dwarf tokens (if possible) at mines when going into decline?

Also, the new catapult rules sucks too (if you play it on iPad you can only shoot ONE (!) time with the catapult, making it allmost worthless as a (4) ability).

Do you still play like you can shoot endlessly after deploying it? Or perhaps make it a (5)?



I have to agree with you, it one compares Muddy and Forest, for example, there's only one token of difference, so it should be the same for Dwarves and Wizards, for exemple.

Nonetheless, Small World designers had the excellent idea of boosting some weak-looking combos by making players pay to skip it. At the end, it can become very valuable - just as Cursed, but not just as extreme.

For Catapult, I've always played with the possibility of conquering as many regions with the attacking bonus as one wish. Because this is the official rule, why so many people think it is only one conquest allowed this way. Because if not, it is much less interesting than the Dragon. Of course it could be boosted just like the Dwarves but still, it would suck this way.
      
AngryMarine
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Re:Houserules to overcome UP races/abilities? Sun, 09 March 2014 21:14
Quote:

For Catapult, I've always played with the possibility of conquering as many regions with the attacking bonus as one wish. Because this is the official rule, why so many people think it is only one conquest allowed this way. Because if not, it is much less interesting than the Dragon. Of course it could be boosted just like the Dwarves but still, it would suck this way.

We have discussed in another thread that the official rule for Catapult is that it can be used only once per turn, haven't we?

http://www.daysofwonder.com/en/msg/?th=28948&start=0

If you don't like to play by the rule, it's ok! But please don't mislead other players, saying that Catapult can be used as many times as one wishes by the official rule, for it is not true.

[Aktualisiert am: Sun, 09 March 2014 21:17]

      
blaxnlion
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Re:Houserules to overcome UP races/abilities? Sun, 09 March 2014 21:32
AngryMarine wrote on Sun, 09 March 2014 21:14

Quote:

For Catapult, I've always played with the possibility of conquering as many regions with the attacking bonus as one wish. Because this is the official rule, why so many people think it is only one conquest allowed this way. Because if not, it is much less interesting than the Dragon. Of course it could be boosted just like the Dwarves but still, it would suck this way.

We have discussed in another thread that the official rule for Catapult is that it can be used only once per turn, haven't we?

http://www.daysofwonder.com/en/msg/?th=28948&start=0

If you don't like to play by the rule, it's ok! But please don't mislead other players, saying that Catapult can be used as many times as one wishes by the official rule, for it is not true.


Yes, I know it's been discussed, and I also know that a lot of contradictory posts were written. I can understand Dwarves, but this one... Plus, what difference does it make if he believes me or not ? Seriously.
      
rasmussen81
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Re:Houserules to overcome UP races/abilities? Sun, 09 March 2014 23:16
blaxnlion wrote on Sun, 09 March 2014 13:32

AngryMarine wrote on Sun, 09 March 2014 21:14

Quote:

For Catapult, I've always played with the possibility of conquering as many regions with the attacking bonus as one wish. Because this is the official rule, why so many people think it is only one conquest allowed this way. Because if not, it is much less interesting than the Dragon. Of course it could be boosted just like the Dwarves but still, it would suck this way.

We have discussed in another thread that the official rule for Catapult is that it can be used only once per turn, haven't we?

http://www.daysofwonder.com/en/msg/?th=28948&start=0

If you don't like to play by the rule, it's ok! But please don't mislead other players, saying that Catapult can be used as many times as one wishes by the official rule, for it is not true.


Yes, I know it's been discussed, and I also know that a lot of contradictory posts were written. I can understand Dwarves, but this one... Plus, what difference does it make if he believes me or not ? Seriously.


There were not that many contradictory posts...you're the only person from that discussion who still seems to be having trouble understanding that the Official rules only allow players to use the catapult once per turn.

And what do you mean "Plus, what difference does it make if he believes me or not ? Seriously." A new player is asking for clarification and you told him the wrong information, claiming it was official!?! He'll play by the wrong rules, thinking they are official, when he just wanted to know the truth...and the worst part is that you know that it's not true!

Like AngryMarine said, you can play how you want but don't mislead new players.

[Aktualisiert am: Sun, 09 March 2014 23:17]

      
blaxnlion
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Re:Houserules to overcome UP races/abilities? Sun, 09 March 2014 23:25
rasmussen81 wrote on Sun, 09 March 2014 23:16

blaxnlion wrote on Sun, 09 March 2014 13:32

AngryMarine wrote on Sun, 09 March 2014 21:14

Quote:

For Catapult, I've always played with the possibility of conquering as many regions with the attacking bonus as one wish. Because this is the official rule, why so many people think it is only one conquest allowed this way. Because if not, it is much less interesting than the Dragon. Of course it could be boosted just like the Dwarves but still, it would suck this way.

We have discussed in another thread that the official rule for Catapult is that it can be used only once per turn, haven't we?

http://www.daysofwonder.com/en/msg/?th=28948&start=0

If you don't like to play by the rule, it's ok! But please don't mislead other players, saying that Catapult can be used as many times as one wishes by the official rule, for it is not true.


Yes, I know it's been discussed, and I also know that a lot of contradictory posts were written. I can understand Dwarves, but this one... Plus, what difference does it make if he believes me or not ? Seriously.


There were not that many contradictory posts...you're the only person from that discussion who still seems to be having trouble understanding that the Official rules only allow players to use the catapult once per turn.

And what do you mean "Plus, what difference does it make if he believes me or not ? Seriously." A new player is asking for clarification and you told him the wrong information, claiming it was official!?! He'll play by the wrong rules, thinking they are official, when he just wanted to know the truth...and the worst part is that you know that it's not true!

Like AngryMarine said, you can play how you want but don't mislead new players.



I was just stating that many players play with what they think are the real rules wheareas they don't. And, there's not only the English forum, and it's hard to figure out among all the posts. But again, Catapult is much more balanced the way, I think, most people saw it and understood it, including me (I might have the wrong impression but I doubt so, given all the questions that came back again and again about this same power). This might be the official rule but I feel like a lot of people wonder where's the interest of it from the "official" point of view. Anyway, I don't want to make an opera about this. I just think there is little point in introducing the official rules when quite a few have already playing with what seemed more normal...

EDIT : if you want, I should have precised : "The way a lot people see it or at least feel how it is logical to use this power" and "you can also play with the official rule that says... but I'll perfectly understand if you don't see the interest of this version at all." Good night, everyone Wink

[Aktualisiert am: Sun, 09 March 2014 23:44]

      
Jeronimon
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Re:Houserules to overcome UP races/abilities? Mon, 10 March 2014 07:59
I have to agree with Angrymarine here, and say that I do not think we need house rules for Small World.

I find that if you play your "cards" right most of the game balances out in the end.

Dwarves are a good example of a perceived "weak" race but can get you a nice bunch of points. No they won't build a vast empire an spread out over 7 or 8 regions. I try to get them on the board, conquer at least two mine regions (three is better but most of the time stretching it), go in decline. And when you start your next race, protect your dwarves. The Dwarves then in decline still get you about 5 points because their mines still get 2 in decline. While not my favorite race I do frequently pick them up and also collect the coins other players put on them.


Then there is the Catapult "issue" Wink
I feel the game is not about one combo and if that is better then other combo's. The game has an eb and flood dynamic where some races "race" over the board very quickly, spread themselves very thin and get conquered easily afterwards. Other races "evolve" more slowly but are steadier and solidify their position. The player has look at what's available in the combos next to the board and plan accordingly. Sometimes you go into decline a turn earlier than is good for your current race to get that good combo or that combo that combines perfectly with your current race (or against that dominating opponent). Sometimes you play a race a turn too long because the choices are not good next to the board.

The catapult gives you one immune region and the ability to conquer one other region at -1, used well this can block one side of your race from attack and you can "jump" to a good location. An good power in my eyes that does not need extra sprucing.


I feel that the "balancing" house rules are there to balance out short term planning where personally feel that the game has more depth and should be viewed more as a whole in long term planning over all the turns with all your races. And I find that in that respect the game is balanced out pretty well. Also because if somebody powerful gets on the board the other players (should) gang up on him/her.

But that's just my opinion of course. Cool

      
blaxnlion
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Re:Houserules to overcome UP races/abilities? Mon, 10 March 2014 19:17
Jeronimon wrote on Mon, 10 March 2014 07:59

I have to agree with Angrymarine here, and say that I do not think we need house rules for Small World.

I find that if you play your "cards" right most of the game balances out in the end.

Dwarves are a good example of a perceived "weak" race but can get you a nice bunch of points. No they won't build a vast empire an spread out over 7 or 8 regions. I try to get them on the board, conquer at least two mine regions (three is better but most of the time stretching it), go in decline. And when you start your next race, protect your dwarves. The Dwarves then in decline still get you about 5 points because their mines still get 2 in decline. While not my favorite race I do frequently pick them up and also collect the coins other players put on them.


Then there is the Catapult "issue" Wink
I feel the game is not about one combo and if that is better then other combo's. The game has an eb and flood dynamic where some races "race" over the board very quickly, spread themselves very thin and get conquered easily afterwards. Other races "evolve" more slowly but are steadier and solidify their position. The player has look at what's available in the combos next to the board and plan accordingly. Sometimes you go into decline a turn earlier than is good for your current race to get that good combo or that combo that combines perfectly with your current race (or against that dominating opponent). Sometimes you play a race a turn too long because the choices are not good next to the board.

The catapult gives you one immune region and the ability to conquer one other region at -1, used well this can block one side of your race from attack and you can "jump" to a good location. An good power in my eyes that does not need extra sprucing.


I feel that the "balancing" house rules are there to balance out short term planning where personally feel that the game has more depth and should be viewed more as a whole in long term planning over all the turns with all your races. And I find that in that respect the game is balanced out pretty well. Also because if somebody powerful gets on the board the other players (should) gang up on him/her.

But that's just my opinion of course. Cool




You are right, fortunately the game is always balanced because no matter how much a combo can suck or at least look weak, people who skip it lose coins to the benefit of the one who chooses it.

Now, for the Catapult issue. Compare it to the Dragon : the latter doesn't enable you to skip over a region, but this is much more than compensated by the extra race token it gives (5 against 4) AND the fact that you can attack any region with only one token regardless of what's inside. That means, you can blow an Ivory tower like if you blew on a fly. In this case, the bonus attack is like -5 tokens (!!!) whereas Catapult is always one. And the fact that you can "choose" a region more easily to jump in does not help that much, when the board is jammed it's not much of an act of providence.
      
philippos42
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Re:Houserules to overcome UP races/abilities? Mon, 10 March 2014 22:29
Well, the Catapult gives you -1 to attack, but also saves you the units it would take to cross the intervening region. Or in Underground, with all its chasms, Catapult allows you to take a shortcut around something impassable.
      
blaxnlion
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Re:Houserules to overcome UP races/abilities? Mon, 10 March 2014 22:40
philippos42 wrote on Mon, 10 March 2014 22:29

Well, the Catapult gives you -1 to attack, but also saves you the units it would take to cross the intervening region. Or in Underground, with all its chasms, Catapult allows you to take a shortcut around something impassable.


Yes, but that makes a change only with a very few races, like Humans or so. Plus, apart from the Chasm thing, it's not much of a difference, since the region you conquer with Catapult, you can conquer it normaly by gathering anough troops to conquer the intermediary region. I think slaughtering a region with one token, once per turn, has much more impact that just conquering a region one square away, with just one less token than necessary. Anyway...
      
masterdruid817
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Re:Houserules to overcome UP races/abilities? Wed, 12 March 2014 14:24
Hmm... well, you've convinced me, catapult does not seem to match dragon master. If you want a solution, it's a power. So it doesn't have race tokens, meaning you can just make it a 5. Simple.
      
blaxnlion
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Re:Houserules to overcome UP races/abilities? Wed, 12 March 2014 15:35
masterdruid817 wrote on Wed, 12 March 2014 14:24

Hmm... well, you've convinced me, catapult does not seem to match dragon master. If you want a solution, it's a power. So it doesn't have race tokens, meaning you can just make it a 5. Simple.


I'd still keep 4 and apply my conception of this power, because it seems more logical to me (since when a real Catapult could be used only once ? ^^) and at least it matches the number on the tile.
      
AngryMarine
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Re:Houserules to overcome UP races/abilities? Wed, 12 March 2014 19:35
Quote:

(since when a real Catapult could be used only once ? ^^)

Since when should we compare a real catapult to a turn-based strategy one?
Even so, the Small World Catapult can be used up to ten times if your Catapult Race stays active all game on a 2 or a 3 player map. Like in real life it needs to be recharged, it is not a machine gun, you know!
      
blaxnlion
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Re:Houserules to overcome UP races/abilities? Wed, 12 March 2014 20:51
AngryMarine wrote on Wed, 12 March 2014 19:35

Quote:

(since when a real Catapult could be used only once ? ^^)

Since when should we compare a real catapult to a turn-based strategy one?
Even so, the Small World Catapult can be used up to ten times if your Catapult Race stays active all game on a 2 or a 3 player map. Like in real life it needs to be recharged, it is not a machine gun, you know!


Since when Small World's ideas of powers and races' mechanisms don't have to have a minimum of a link with the race or power in question, while this is precisely the beauty of the game ? If this is so, why bother with naming that a Catapult, a real or fantasy one, whereas one could have named it the Chocolate Pillow ? Now there could be a debate about how long, in a real-life war, it takes for a Catapult to be reused, with stupid questions like would five minutes to recharge it be equivalent to only using it once per turn in a game of Small World ?

In a 2 or 3 player match, there are so few regions it's not that of an advantage with my vision of this power. May I add that the more regions you conquer, the less there is to apply this power afterwards.

You know, it's your problem if you want to keep an absolute, if not blind, faith in Small World's designers' intentions, but this power was the creation of a single fan guy and I'm starting thinking it was misinterpreted from the beginning. Now, if you don't want to see how ridiculously underpowered this power is with the official rule, I don't care. Not to mention this is not even about sounding REALISTIC (not even 100 % faithful to reality, just REALISTIC), it's about you perhaps starting wondering how I could come to have one person convinced with obvious facts this power is underpowered. It's not because a rule is official it's completely, indisputably balanced, look at the Dwarves and Orcs. Now that I had admitted mine was not the official rule, just the more BALANCED, REALISTIC, LOGICAL one to the point one realizes I am right, why did you have to come back and make a fuss about this if I was just discussing and giving my opinion about a houserule which, by definition, you have no reason to attack like this ?

EDIT : to sum up, since when is it relevant to criticize what I called MY conception of this power and MY vision of what standards all races and powers should respect, anyway ? Although this particular one deserves some debate since I think like more than a few people ?

[Aktualisiert am: Wed, 12 March 2014 20:57]

      
DAC cazaron
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Re:Houserules to overcome UP races/abilities? Wed, 12 March 2014 21:24
blaxnlion wrote on Thu, 13 March 2014 06:51


EDIT : to sum up, since when is it relevant to criticize what I called MY conception of this power and MY vision of what standards all races and powers should respect, anyway ? Although this particular one deserves some debate since I think like more than a few people ?


Not one single person here is criticising YOU.
AngryMarine said it earlier, If you want to play House Rules, by all means, do it, but that doesn't make the game imbalanced, doesn't make the game not playtested and doesn't mean that your way of playing should be interpreted as the right way.
If you were playing with me at my house, we would not play your house rules.
You've said it yourself, some races are balanced by the coin-fee to skip them. Dwarves are useful in that their power continues in decline, and while they have a low number, they're balanced in that people will skip them.
The catapult, on the other hand, sure, it's not a strong power. But why does it have the be 'balanced' by your house rules?
Don't misinterpret me here: If you want to 'balance' it when you're at home playing with your friends and they're okay with that, then that's fantastic, go for it. But to come out here and say that your balance is the right way? That's not okay.
The designer made the game this way for a reason, playtested it and published it, with all its niche races and powers, and evidently did a good job, considering how popular the game is. You may call me 'blind' in my 'faith' to the 'developer's intentions' but in reality, I abide by how the game was created. You may like your way better, and that's fine. You're welcome to do that.

TL;DR - Balance it however you like, everyone here is okay with that, just don't go saying your way is the right way.
      
blaxnlion
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Re:Houserules to overcome UP races/abilities? Wed, 12 March 2014 21:37
DAC cazaron wrote on Wed, 12 March 2014 21:24

blaxnlion wrote on Thu, 13 March 2014 06:51


EDIT : to sum up, since when is it relevant to criticize what I called MY conception of this power and MY vision of what standards all races and powers should respect, anyway ? Although this particular one deserves some debate since I think like more than a few people ?


Not one single person here is criticising YOU.
AngryMarine said it earlier, If you want to play House Rules, by all means, do it, but that doesn't make the game imbalanced, doesn't make the game not playtested and doesn't mean that your way of playing should be interpreted as the right way.
If you were playing with me at my house, we would not play your house rules.
You've said it yourself, some races are balanced by the coin-fee to skip them. Dwarves are useful in that their power continues in decline, and while they have a low number, they're balanced in that people will skip them.
The catapult, on the other hand, sure, it's not a strong power. But why does it have the be 'balanced' by your house rules?
Don't misinterpret me here: If you want to 'balance' it when you're at home playing with your friends and they're okay with that, then that's fantastic, go for it. But to come out here and say that your balance is the right way? That's not okay.
The designer made the game this way for a reason, playtested it and published it, with all its niche races and powers, and evidently did a good job, considering how popular the game is. You may call me 'blind' in my 'faith' to the 'developer's intentions' but in reality, I abide by how the game was created. You may like your way better, and that's fine. You're welcome to do that.

TL;DR - Balance it however you like, everyone here is okay with that, just don't go saying your way is the right way.


Yes, I perfectly agree, the coin-fee thing balance things back. But still, is it a reason to set strictly underpowered powers ?

When I first played with this power, it naturally came into my mind that it was meant to be like this, and I didn't make anybody agree because they felt it was natural too, although we wondered at first, but we quickly came to the conclusion what I now know it is the official rule, is way too underpowered. And that was when the player had already picked it, with no hope of getting the coin-fee.

Please do not hint I think this is the right thing, I clearly said it was my vision of things BUT that it was the most logical vision, since everybody I played with had the chance to ask themselves the question at the same time that I did.

If you want to abide by how the game was created, fine, but that's precisely what I said, you seem not to be ready to even have the slightest doubt about it. I'll ask it again, who tells us this idea wasn't distorted from the beginning ? I think that my arguments to say it is underpowered with the official rule are legitim and easily defendable. Tell me, you are ready to tell me this power doesn't seem a tad underpowered at all whatsoever ? I mean, in average, comparing it to the Dragon Master power ?

And again, I didn't say my way was the right way, just the way that seemed more natural and logical to a certain lot of people. Just that.

EDIT : and YES, it was a little of criticizing, perhaps because you thought I claimed to be cleverer than the designers or I don't know what, when I just exposed my vision of things, which is also a houserule, and AngryMarine clearly criticized my way of seeing things wheareas it was irrelevant. Or at least that's my conception of criticizing... But I'm not some moany person, I could hardly care less.

EDIT 2 : now, please, could we cut it out ? Fighting over something stupid like this is the last thing that I want. We both have our vision of things, and if we're happy this way, better than ever. I have great respect for the designers and I'm sure they playtested a lot. Still, one can playtest a lot and feel like it works, but one can need some back-up as well once in a while ^^ or at least some kind debate about details like this one. Because for now I'd like someone to explain to me why what I think of this power is unfounded, or why the official rule is not underpowered, not counting the coin-fee. That's all.

[Aktualisiert am: Wed, 12 March 2014 21:52]

      
AngryMarine
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Re:Houserules to overcome UP races/abilities? Wed, 12 March 2014 22:58
Dear blaxnlion!
(I say "dear" because all Small World fans are dear people to me, it is really so)
"Coming back and make fuss", "criticizing", "attacking" - I am sorry if I sounded like that, I did not mean it. I like to discuss the game and all about it - that is what I am doing here.

"Coming back and make fuss", "criticizing", "attacking" - that is what I can see from you in the direction of one of the official rules. You are not just saying that you prefer to play by your house rule, you are insisting that your house rule is more correct than the official one. My natural reaction is to defend it, maybe because I want all Small World players to exist in one and the same universe, where all rules and laws are equal to everyone, but above this, because I know that the official rule for Catapult is perfectly balanced, for I have tested it myself.

You are asking to explain why Catapult is not underpowered. I cannot do it. In theory it really sounds less interesting than Dragon Master. In practice we deal with combos, not powers. In practice we deal with different layouts of combos on the board and with different numbers of opponents and maps. I have given you example with Diplomat combo on the two player map that cannot surround Catapult combo, but can easily surround Dragon Master combo. That is just one example! There can be different situations. Sometimes Small World is unfair, but like I love to say in this case, so is the life itself.

[Aktualisiert am: Wed, 12 March 2014 22:59]

      
blaxnlion
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Re:Houserules to overcome UP races/abilities? Wed, 12 March 2014 23:08
AngryMarine wrote on Wed, 12 March 2014 22:58

Dear blaxnlion!
(I say "dear" because all Small World fans are dear people to me, it is really so)
"Coming back and make fuss", "criticizing", "attacking" - I am sorry if I sounded like that, I did not mean it. I like to discuss the game and all about it - that is what I am doing here.

"Coming back and make fuss", "criticizing", "attacking" - that is what I can see from you in the direction of one of the official rules. You are not just saying that you prefer to play by your house rule, you are insisting that your house rule is more correct than the official one. My natural reaction is to defend it, maybe because I want all Small World players to exist in one and the same universe, where all rules and laws are equal to everyone, but above this, because I know that the official rule for Catapult is perfectly balanced, for I have tested it myself.

You are asking to explain why Catapult is not underpowered. I cannot do it. In theory it really sounds less interesting than Dragon Master. In practice we deal with combos, not powers. In practice we deal with different layouts of combos on the board and with different numbers of opponents and maps. I have given you example with Diplomat combo on the two player map that cannot surround Catapult combo, but can easily surround Dragon Master combo. That is just one example! There can be different situations. Sometimes Small World is unfair, but like I love to say in this case, so is the life itself.



Not more correct... Seems just that people accept this version more naturally. You have tested the official rule and found it balanced. I have tested what I thought was the official rule and found it balanced. Although how much surprising this can sound, it happenned ^^

I am thankful for the beginning of explanation you gave. But still, it's very precise situations you are talking about. I feel now that if I play with the real rule, it'll be unbalanced.

Defending the rules for all of us to be equal, that is admirable, but isn't the game, and also life, about testing other ways ? If there wasn't that there would be no fan of Small World that would come up with new ideas of races and powers... Just saying ^^
      
AngryMarine
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Re:Houserules to overcome UP races/abilities? Thu, 13 March 2014 00:16
https://onedrive.live.com/redir?resid=550EB277611FADDA!159&a mp;a mp;authkey=!ACZVE5739OQbT7U&v=3&ithint=photo%2c.jpg
Like you can see on the screenshot, if Catapult was allowed to be used several times, it would contain all the advantages of Flying and Commando plus one immune region. Perfectly balanced, you say?

[Aktualisiert am: Thu, 13 March 2014 00:17]

      
blaxnlion
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Re:Houserules to overcome UP races/abilities? Thu, 13 March 2014 12:53
AngryMarine wrote on Thu, 13 March 2014 00:16

https://onedrive.live.com/redir?resid=550EB277611FADDA!159&a mp;a mp;a mp;a mp;a mp;a mp;authkey=!ACZVE5739OQbT7U&v=3&ithint=photo%2c.jpg
Like you can see on the screenshot, if Catapult was allowed to be used several times, it would contain all the advantages of Flying and Commando plus one immune region. Perfectly balanced, you say?


Yes, because Commando is on every region, as well as Flying ; Flying is a 5, Commando's a 4, and Catapult is not on EVERY region. The fact you have to skip a region to use the -1 attacking bonus reduces quite a bit the possibilities, whereas you don't have to worry about that with Commando and Flying. Again, you might think this is overpowered but the official rule is way more underpowered than the way I play it is possibly overpowered. Remember Dragon Master has an immune region too, with an attacking bonus that can reach a -6 or 7 against an Ivory tower, and at least -2 or 3 in general. Your Catapult is only -1 and grants one token less, and can do barely anything more than another power against an Ivory tower. So if your Catapult was balanced, there would be a lot of powers like Dragon Master than would be a lot overpowered.

EDIT : AND, for the Wizards on the picture you posted, they would have to make a normal conquest to have the Magic Source two squares away. So there you go, for them it would not be like Commando, since they have to put a priority into conquering Magic regions. It wouldn't be like Flying either since they have to use two tokens first to conquer the Lost Tribe region adjacent to the Magic source. Unbalanced, you said ?

EDIT 2 : you have to understand that there is a great difference between the regions you CAN apply a power on, and the regions you SHOULD do it on. If there is a race that is making too much money and have to be targeted, or for a Catapult race that needs to target regions like Wizards, those regions they have to target can NEVER exactly match the ones they CAN target with the bonus, whereas Flying and Commando CAN. Do you get my point ? So there you go. That sounds balanced for me. Not to mention that the immune region given by the Catapult is contradictory with the fact that by spreading a lot far from the Catapult, it's the weakly defended regions that will be targeted by your enemies, like they would spend additionnal tokens to come and destroy the Catapult if they could. So I think the immunity is not that annoying for the others and an advantage for you here, less than the Dragon which at least can block all your other regions behind.

[Aktualisiert am: Thu, 13 March 2014 13:01]

      
AngryMarine
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Re:Houserules to overcome UP races/abilities? Fri, 14 March 2014 06:59
@blaxnlion
You are saying strange things to me, in practice it all works in a different way.
Let me invite you to online battles!
You can share your experience, your strategies, your understanding with players from around the world. Perhaps, you will learn something new yourself and change your mind about some things. It is way better than boiling in your own saucepan! The app is now available for all popular platforms Smile and now it is on sale! (50 % off the regular price if I am right).

[Aktualisiert am: Fri, 14 March 2014 09:05]

      
blaxnlion
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Re:Houserules to overcome UP races/abilities? Fri, 14 March 2014 10:22
AngryMarine wrote on Fri, 14 March 2014 06:59

@blaxnlion
You are saying strange things to me, in practice it all works in a different way.
Let me invite you to online battles!
You can share your experience, your strategies, your understanding with players from around the world. Perhaps, you will learn something new yourself and change your mind about some things. It is way better than boiling in your own saucepan! The app is now available for all popular platforms Smile and now it is on sale! (50 % off the regular price if I am right).


I don't have the necessary devices to play online, unfortunately (and it's not free). I enjoy better playing with people of flesh and bone, plus at least one has the freedom of applying what suits one best. I don't see how what I said is weird, seems logical to me. You told me about an example that shows PRECISELY my vision of Catapult is not overpowered. Plus, I might change my mind but I seriously doubt I would. And let alone now that I have convinced someone of the validity of my arguments. Have nice games Wink
      
jepmn
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Re:Houserules to overcome UP races/abilities? Mon, 17 March 2014 23:52
You don't have the right "devices"? In other words, you don't own an android (including Kindle Fire) or iOS or a PC or a Mac, or a linux box with WINE?
      
blaxnlion
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Re:Houserules to overcome UP races/abilities? Mon, 17 March 2014 23:59
Oh, I thought you could only play this on Ipad. Still, correct me if I'm wrong but the online version is not for free, right ?

And, I don't feel like to play online anyway. Too rigid, lacks human warmth. And also this kind of problem previously debated ^^

[Aktualisiert am: Thu, 20 March 2014 19:38]

      
jepmn
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Re:Houserules to overcome UP races/abilities? Thu, 20 March 2014 19:02
It's a one-time fee of $15. Or less if you wait for sales.
      
blaxnlion
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Re:Houserules to overcome UP races/abilities? Thu, 20 March 2014 19:39
The price is not the problem, or at least much less than the previous arguments written above Wink
      
    
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