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Sysyphus - Pommard
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Blocking/Ethics discussion about blocking in multis (transferred from multi-tourney thread) Tue, 01 March 2011 19:05
from multi tourney thread, to make it clearer)
Started with

GRATS KNOCK



http://nsa25.casimages.com/img/2011/02/24/11022401294534950.png




then

Anastasia's point of view:

lol sysy!! you decided to kill them all? what are you? the punisher?? it was the final game, so everybody tried the best for himself,except you! you were trying the best for knock! he was good eitherway!
so, grats to knock!
[/quote]






Sysy's reaction to Ana :

My main point = Knock wasn't considered as a dangerous threat from the beginning by Kostas and he reacted too late.

And I even said in the lobby after game 2, Knock should be the target... (check the standings after game 2 and game 4, nothing happened).

(...)


In the 2nd 5er, kostas started to block... Yeah, i could have helped, but i had 3 tix to make... The block would have give me one more point in the standings when i was already 4th in the standings. Wasn't up to me to do that....


In the last game, Kostas started to block Knock. I was already out for the win, when EPO still had a chance.
EPO joined the block.
Then Knock found an opportunity to block Kostas.
Kostas decided HIMSELF to skip that track (yeah, Knock was pink, Kostas red, I was yellow). Then, that let me the option to debate "to block or not to block?".
If i blocked, it's only because i had the colours to kill epo and kostas. Knock already dead and Elka really struggling, that was, in my opinion, a smart and valuable block that would give me a HUGE profit .


DEBATE

Statement from Sysy about blocking in a tourney

What's a smart block to me ? A block which is not a block for the pleasure of blocking, to show others "hey guys, I blocked a top multi player, I'm therefore a top multi player too...!! even if I didn't gain any advantadge by doing so "
(i.e. Pammes in qualifying round, who was destroyed and had no chance to claim another spot but the last one in the game and in the group, that decided to focus on me because i was winning the game... He didn't gain anything by doing it...but i guess he was quite self satisfied.
i.e. Mallkav that decided to block the longest of psteinx because he was thinking it was fun to block a top multi player. He didn't gain anything by doing it, and decided who had to win the game. Oh yeah, then psteinx failed to reach number 1 overall with that move".)





Truckerteller's fisr reaction



Just wanted to support Sysyphus' statement that it's sh*t pathetic to block in multi's without gaining any advantage for oneself. Unfortunately those who do this tend not to be reached with reason and feel all smuck for blocking a top multi or in my case a top Europe player.

Maybe it's a good idea for all you multi psycho's to write a code of ethics before you start such a tourney. What kind of blocking do you think is ok ? Is it ok to talk in the lobby or during the game about joint blocking ? Because someone is ahead in the game or the overall standings ?


Dea's interest
This discussion is interesting:
Truckerteller schrieb am Fri, 25 February 2011 10:43

... it's sh*t pathetic to block in multi's without gaining any advantage for oneself.

I guess everyone agrees so far.

Problem being ... are you supposed/obliged to know whether the block can be to your advantage or not?
Knowing for sure that you cannot gain and therefore shouldn't meddle around requires that you counted your and your opp's probable and possible scores and of course that you know all the ticks (in EU I think most people don't) to be able to count correctly.

As for me, I would probably count correctly in a tournament final, but in casual multi games I normally don't.
As a consequence it may well happen that I play a block that turns out to have no effect on my own placement in the end.
I wouldn't want to be "morally obliged" to avoid that ... simply too strenuous.
And I think we cannot expect it from all players, because some couldn't count everything perfectly even if they wanted to (e.g. I know a lot of very good EU players who would not be able to name all the small tickets).

Anyhow, here's a recent example where I'd like to know what everyone considers the correct behaviour:
4er EU with psteinx, Sysy, BlackIsBack and me.
Towards end of the game BiB and I share longest.
Suppose BiB knows / has counted everything, he can tell that he will win and currently I would be 2nd.
psteinx could end the game at his turn but doesn't, thereby giving BiB the chance to pick up 2 open orange which would give him longest alone - which would make me end up 4th instead of 2nd.
Should he value psteinx' good move or simply ignore it and collect his win quickly?[/quote]


Kostas' point of view of "moral behaviour" in a tourney
the basic point of this tournament is if it is moral for a player who can't take the first place (i talk only about the last game of the finals) to block the players who they have the chance to win. in our case, sysy influenced the final result. if i were him, i wouldn't do that for moral reasons even if i want to take 2nd place. i m not sure if the way i think is correct and it would be good for all to know the opinion from all multi players so we can have common moral rules for next league.




Sysy's ethics
About a code of ethics in a multi tourney :

I, personnally, always play for the win, in a tourney or in a regular, even if it requires major risks.

In that kind of tourney, in a final mode, I expect everybody to play for the win. There's no point to play for 3rd or 4th, since only the winner is rewarded. In Gof, there's an unspoken agreement among top players to play for the win. As it doesn't exist yet, i thought it was quite needed to remind all other players about that despite the clear inefficiency.
If after 2 games/4 games, the race for the win is almost over because one had better tix or colours at some point, and nothing is done to fight against the computer's deal, I'd have less pleasure to play that kind of tourney.

I heard a top player in semi-finals = "let's play all the games, we have time to count later"... I think that players have to be aware of the standings and then plan what is needed to do to go for the win.
Another top player : "I don't block, because i don't like it even if it'd have helped me badly".

Knockando and I were the only ones checking the standings between the games on tikipedia. And it requires quick thinking and multitasking considering the fast chain of games, when it should stated clearly in the lobby.


All that lead to a real frustration, cause i expect top players, in a tourney at least, to take into account all the factors in order to win.


Which can be all those factors that may influence my way of playing ?

* the knowledge of the players who are part of the games
(ex : psteinx - that i love to play with, cause he has all those parameters in mind -. He likes taking 6ers with small tix and end fast, or in a 5er, he's quite likely to follow me in a block. Ommie -that should play more often cause she's hiding her skills, is quite likely playing the same way as psteinx cause she learnt to play by watching him. Kostas, when trying to find, would die like me to take 4 blue in CHicago, cause he learnt by watching my games..And those 2 players are not just pale imitations but players that built their own strong way of playing)

*the order of play : (psteinx played his van mon in a very different way yesterday cause i was just behind him, and very likely to start a block)

*knowledge of the tix. I wouldn't figure an efficient game without knowing all the tix.

*counting the cards in the deck (especially in Europe, with the free tunnel).

*thinking of the cards sent back in the deck and checking the size of the deck.


I am quite in a hurry, so my list is not exhaustive, but those are the main features I could think of.

About the standard level of top multis lately

Since i've been part of the community, the standard level of a good multi player was set 1500+.
Now, I'd strongly recommend to open 1550 or even 1600+.
Might be seen as arrogance, but to me there's a difference between playing a multi with good multi-players, and top multi-players.
Yesterday, blubes opened 16+, and we had a bunch of high-quality games and everybody around the table agreed.

Yes sometimes a top multi-player can be lower than 16+. Then it's up to the knowledge that one has of the player, to let him play or not.
Too many players have been granting themselves the right to enter games when they don't have the level required. (ex: 1510 when asked 1550).

About yesterday's game

I have my opinion on it but it's probably better to keep it silent at the moment Wink.







Truck's view of blocking in some specific situations
(about dea's answer)



I guess multi-ethics are an extremely subjective topic, especially when you add the extra dimension of a tournament and its standings. Everyone can have his/her own ideas when situations and actions become dodgy and what may simply be considered good gameplay.

Some questions/situations and my personal take on them.

1. Blocking open big routes for the sake of track points and added benefit of being in other peoples way.
No issues with that whatsoever

2. Blocking smaller routes (thereby not maximizing your own trackpoints) for the sake of gaining in the standings (i.e. moving from 3rd to 2nd in your perceived end-result.
No issues with that whatsoever

3. Blocking to influence the outcome of the game, without influencing your own points or rank. e.g. I can chose where to put my last four, though I will always be 3rd in the game.
In a tournament game I would fully expect to see this happen to one's biggest competitor. In dea's example it's completely in the middle, what to do or what not to do. If you're first anyway and you can decide the fate of the nrs 2,3 and 4, well, you can do whatever you want I think. If you want to reward someone for making a good last move, grasping his only chance, that's fine by me. In dea's example I would simply finish the game a.s.a.p., share longest and prevent anybody from an extra chance of fiending. But I didn't see the game, so I'm not sure about the nuances.

4. Blocking the perceived best opponent early in the game to increase your own perceived chances of winning.
Risky strategy, but if I'm playing a multi with Sysy and two 1400 players, I would certainly keep a stronger eye on what Sysyphus is doing and alter my strategy a bit to be in his way most early on. It's a risky strategy, but valid i.m.o.

5. Blocking to be a schmuck a$$, when you're already behind and you want to show your fellow multi players how you can block a good multi or Europe player.
As mentioned earlier. Pathetic behaviour.

6. Blocking someone, thereby hurting yourself a bit, but if one of the next two players joins you, the end-result is favourable.
Not my cup of tea, but it comes with the game I guess. If you play dozens of games with the same people like this (I play mostly Euro multi's, where this is much less prevalent) and everyone knows what to expect, than it's more than fine.

7. Building a station with no purpose, only to give the next player the possibility to double station and thereby both moving ahead of the affected player.
More of a no-go to me than (6), as it actually costs you points to do this.

8. Talking about jointly blocking someone.
This is a no go for me.

9. Blocking someone from the start because he/she is ahead in the tournament standings.
Not done in my book. If all 5 players behave like that, you can just eliminate the first n-1 games and only play the last game, because everybody is constantly pulling everybody back to the average.

10. Blocking one player from the start with the goal of reaching 3rd in stead of 4th position. I.e. I have crappy tix, and I single out the player most likely to have somewhat crappy tix as well.
Not done in my book.

In reality, some situations may be a lot more quirky. Someone may believe that his/her block has increased his/her chances, whereas I may simply find it stupid and annoying. And we do not see all cards, all tix and know all the odds.

In the end, when you play a multi (or certainly a multi tournament), you shouldn't be surprised that things like (6) (7) and (9) happen.



Sysy's next answer

DD-dea1 wrote on Sun, 27 February 2011 15:25

[b][color=crimson]



Anyhow, here's a recent example where I'd like to know what everyone considers the correct behaviour:
4er EU with psteinx, Sysy, BlackIsBack and me.
Towards end of the game BiB and I share longest.
Suppose BiB knows / has counted everything, he can tell that he will win and currently I would be 2nd.
psteinx could end the game at his turn but doesn't, thereby giving BiB the chance to pick up 2 open orange which would give him longest alone - which would make me end up 4th instead of 2nd.
Should he value psteinx' good move or simply ignore it and collect his win quickly?



See Trucks' point .3. I'd personally end no matter what and I'd have done the same move as psteinx.
Disturbing mentally a player by your moves, the way you play is perfectly fine by me.
I'd have blamed Bib for not having ended, but congratulated phil for his move.


Truckerteller écrit le Mon, 28 February 2011 11:27




1., 2., 3., 4., 5.




100% agreed.

Quote:


6. Blocking someone, thereby hurting yourself a bit, but if one of the next two players joins you, the end-result is favourable.



Would expect that from any player who consider himself as a top player if the move is clearly valuable.

Quote:



7. Building a station with no purpose, only to give the next player the possibility to double station and thereby both moving ahead of the affected player.



I'd do it, if the player in the lead ends very fast, and kills all the other players (3er or 4er most likely).

Quote:


8. Talking about jointly blocking someone.


No, but i expect opponents to block when he's in the need.

Quote:


9. Blocking someone from the start because he/she is ahead in the tournament standings.



Not from the start. But once again, I'd expect opponents to block, end fast or prevent the N°1 in standings from completing his tix, or drawing one more time.

Quote:


10. Blocking one player from the start with the goal of reaching 3rd in stead of 4th position. I.e. I have crappy tix, and I single out the player most likely to have somewhat crappy tix as well.



Crappy tix or obvious ones like Miami or Van Mon in a 5er.

If i'm 1750 and i'm playing with 1550, i have Mon Atl, CHi No, i have no pb doing it. I'm 1550, i'd be more offensive and go for a draw.

[Aktualisiert am: Tue, 01 March 2011 19:22]

      

ThemaVerfasserDatum
  Blocking/Ethics discussion about blocking in multis (transferred from multi-tourney thread)  Sysyphus - PommardTue, 01 March 2011 19:05
  Re:Blocking/Ethics discussion about blocking in multis (transferred from multi-tourney thread) Robin HoodThu, 03 March 2011 21:33
  Re:Blocking/Ethics discussion about blocking in multis (transferred from multi-tourney thread) ATN DrakeMon, 07 March 2011 19:09
  Re:Blocking/Ethics discussion about blocking in multis (transferred from multi-tourney thread) CIA GenuineFauxFarmMon, 07 March 2011 20:28
  Re:Blocking/Ethics discussion about blocking in multis (transferred from multi-tourney thread) psteinxWed, 12 October 2011 23:48
  Re:Blocking/Ethics discussion about blocking in multis (transferred from multi-tourney thread) Sysyphus - PommardMon, 11 June 2012 02:49
  Re:Blocking/Ethics discussion about blocking in multis (transferred from multi-tourney thread) AAA_dea1Mon, 11 June 2012 10:46
  Re:Blocking/Ethics discussion about blocking in multis (transferred from multi-tourney thread) LMT HeckiMon, 11 June 2012 23:03
  Re:Blocking/Ethics discussion about blocking in multis (transferred from multi-tourney thread) AAA_dea1Mon, 11 June 2012 23:34
  Re:Blocking/Ethics discussion about blocking in multis (transferred from multi-tourney thread) Sysyphus - PommardTue, 12 June 2012 05:17
  Re:Blocking/Ethics discussion about blocking in multis (transferred from multi-tourney thread) LMT HeckiTue, 12 June 2012 13:12
  Re:Blocking/Ethics discussion about blocking in multis (transferred from multi-tourney thread) ATN The TinmanThu, 26 July 2012 04:22
  Re:Blocking/Ethics discussion about blocking in multis (transferred from multi-tourney thread) CAT-pegasoThu, 26 July 2012 11:16
  Re:Blocking/Ethics discussion about blocking in multis (transferred from multi-tourney thread) SY/\/ \/\/illThu, 26 July 2012 11:55
  Re:Blocking/Ethics discussion about blocking in multis (transferred from multi-tourney thread) GSV3Thu, 26 July 2012 12:29
  Hidden cards in multi ! Sysyphus - PommardThu, 04 October 2012 03:39
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