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jdw1710
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Re:maybe to powerful Thu, 09 August 2007 21:13
I would rather see DOW spend there energy on creating new suppliments to BL (new creatures and hereos/leaders please Very Happy ), then reprint LORE cards.

Has anyone had the experience where these questionable cards saved them from certain defeat? The most devistating experience I've had with these cards is a loss of 14 men - 8 against my enemy, 6 against my own. Confused
      
izack
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Re:maybe to powerful Thu, 09 August 2007 22:23
jdw1710 wrote on Fri, 10 August 2007 03:13

I would rather see DOW spend there energy on creating new suppliments to BL (new creatures and hereos/leaders please Very Happy ), then reprint LORE cards.

Has anyone had the experience where these questionable cards saved them from certain defeat? The most devistating experience I've had with these cards is a loss of 14 men - 8 against my enemy, 6 against my own. Confused


I think that's part of the problem, the cards didn't save me from certain defeat, it gave me the victory when the game was balanced otherwise.
      
toddrew
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Re:maybe to powerful Fri, 10 August 2007 01:29
izack wrote on Thu, 09 August 2007 13:23

I think that's part of the problem, the cards didn't save me from certain defeat, it gave me the victory when the game was balanced otherwise.


As a fortuitously played lore card is wont to do Wink
      
Caboose
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Re:maybe to powerful Fri, 10 August 2007 05:19
If you think about it, almost all (with few exceptions) of the Lore cards are powerful in their own situations. Note I did say there are a few that no matter what the situation, probably won't do much.

Cab
      
tkostek
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Re:maybe to powerful Fri, 10 August 2007 06:32
cebalrai wrote on Thu, 09 August 2007 13:54

I'm actually surprised we haven't seen a lore card expansion yet. Seems like that would be a really simple, cheap, and enjoyable early expansion.

Also it might address the general cleric weirdness. Why is the healer/protector also the best offensive council member as well? Why are there hardly any warrior lore cards that take level into account when the cleric cards scale to such amazing heights?

I'd like to see these sorts of balance issues improved upon in addition to redesigned cleric nuke cards.


I agree with this. I hope to see more diversity and less overlap among the lore masters eventually.
      
Caboose
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Re:maybe to powerful Fri, 10 August 2007 06:35
My guess, is that maybe when DoW brings out the heros, maybe then we'll see more Lore cards. Just a guess, since Heroes is the one aspect we know is in the BL realm,but hasn't come out yet.

Cab
      
badger89
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Re:maybe to powerful Fri, 10 August 2007 14:09
but the cleric has the almighty on his side so of course he is gonna have the most powerful spells.
the game is supposed to be set in a time with devine might and fear of it was very very widespread.
I understand about both players starting with clerics but i have always tried to set up my lore council in a different way at least one of the time i have played the game and if you always took a cleric then the game could become dull for you.
My prev posts give my view on wether i think they are too powerful or not.
There is lot of randomness in these games with no gurantee that hh/rr/ff etc will make such an effective impact. there is also the question about when to play it and if the oppenent has disspell etc etc.
I enjoy playing aginst these cards cos it means i dont just hide my units behind woods or hills etc waiting for the moment to get out and start attacking and by changing my tatics this way i have often (thought not too often) won games where in all probabality i would have lost
      
toddrew
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Re:maybe to powerful Fri, 10 August 2007 15:22
More or less how I feel about it, badger. Additionally, I prefer the other three lore masters over the Cleric as in a game of random results, this is even a larger part of the majority of the cleric's lore cards. Mists of Terror still rocks though Wink When I do venture forth with a Cleric of my choosing, l3 is generally the way I go though, kinda a all in type lore master Very Happy
      
stenic
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Major

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Re:maybe to powerful Fri, 10 August 2007 15:38
It's simple, if you feel the Cleric is over powered then don't use it. We deliberately did not in our last Epic game... but we did pick a mounted & archer heavy army using Call to Arms. Imagine our joy when we play Darken the Skies and Magic Missile at the same time... Oh, and I should mention we took Longbows & Archer-Stakes as our specialists.

5 units of archers, firing twice, magic missiled to 4 dice each. Needless to say the effect was devastating and we won the game.

So was that combo broken ? And should either of those cards be banned because together they were so effective.

It's a game, live with the result and play again.

Steve PO
      
cebalrai
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Re:maybe to powerful Fri, 10 August 2007 18:39
stenic wrote on Fri, 10 August 2007 09:38

It's simple, if you feel the Cleric is over powered then don't use it. We deliberately did not in our last Epic game... but we did pick a mounted & archer heavy army using Call to Arms. Imagine our joy when we play Darken the Skies and Magic Missile at the same time... Oh, and I should mention we took Longbows & Archer-Stakes as our specialists.

5 units of archers, firing twice, magic missiled to 4 dice each. Needless to say the effect was devastating and we won the game.

So was that combo broken ? And should either of those cards be banned because together they were so effective.

It's a game, live with the result and play again.

Steve PO


Steve, you're making the classic error of comparing a single lore card to a combo of multiple cards. I applaud effective combo usage. That's really fun stuff. But massive nuclear effects for a random single card is a totally different subject.

You need to compare combos to combos. Compare a Forest Frenzy against 8 units PLUS the command card that activated 5 archers for you. That's 42 dice!

Maybe you're playing on a map with a good bit of forest and hit 12 units with the FF. Now you're rolling 58 dice!

Now what do you have to say for your puny magic missle combo that only rolls a mere 20 dice? Smile And you also had to spend your specialist cards just to get that small combo to work.

Nothing, NOTHING in this game even approaches the level of the nuke cards.

[Updated on: Fri, 10 August 2007 18:48]

      
stenic
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Re:maybe to powerful Fri, 10 August 2007 19:54
cebalrai wrote on Fri, 10 August 2007 17:39



Steve, you're making the classic error of comparing a single lore card to a combo of multiple cards. I applaud effective combo usage. That's really fun stuff. But massive nuclear effects for a random single card is a totally different subject.

You need to compare combos to combos. Compare a Forest Frenzy against 8 units PLUS the command card that activated 5 archers for you. That's 42 dice!

Maybe you're playing on a map with a good bit of forest and hit 12 units with the FF. Now you're rolling 58 dice!

Now what do you have to say for your puny magic missle combo that only rolls a mere 20 dice? Smile And you also had to spend your specialist cards just to get that small combo to work.

Nothing, NOTHING in this game even approaches the level of the nuke cards.


I don't do classic mistakes, just almight cock-ups, usually charging my cavalry in the first 2 turns Very Happy

I take the point but I have a different view. The FF & HR is a combination, a combination of :
-the right card (that may not have even been in the Lore deck),
-having the lore tokens
-being a cleric (for max effect)
-having enemy on or adjacent to the terrain
-rolling the correct dice

Every one is looking at the FF & HR as a single event and comparing that, but to effect it you need a combination of events to occur. I see them as combinations much like Darken the Skies, Magic Missile and Longbows.

Do people play FF & HR and the river one as soon as they get it ? No. They wait for the optimum time for max effect... but then they risk losing the opportunity. The card may be lost or countered, mand may be drained, units may have moved. That's the beauty the game, when to play your hand.

I understand that for some they may think it too powerful and I agree they are powerful and can be game winners, but that's part of the game. I suppose I'm trying to say don't be bitter about losing to a card like that, stuff happens. Just play again.

Steve P
      
cebalrai
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Re:maybe to powerful Fri, 10 August 2007 20:56
I was referring to a combination of actual cards played, not circumstances. Cool

Regardless, over a number of games, nukes will get drawn, units will be near terrain, people will be able to afford the cheap 7 lore cost, and people will take multiple cleric levels.

"But that's just part of the game" doesn't help when players are soured on the game after it's yet again decided by a single seven-lore card. Confused None of the players in my gaming groups gave up on Battlelore after HR/FF decided a single game. They gave up on it after it happened several times.

[Updated on: Fri, 10 August 2007 21:03]

      
toddrew
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Re:maybe to powerful Sat, 11 August 2007 14:35
cebalrai wrote on Fri, 10 August 2007 09:39



You need to compare combos to combos. Compare a Forest Frenzy against 8 units PLUS the command card that activated 5 archers for you. That's 42 dice!

Maybe you're playing on a map with a good bit of forest and hit 12 units with the FF. Now you're rolling 58 dice!

Now what do you have to say for your puny magic missle combo that only rolls a mere 20 dice? Smile And you also had to spend your specialist cards just to get that small combo to work.

Nothing, NOTHING in this game even approaches the level of the nuke cards.


I can think of very few instances where I would rather be subject to that level of Darken the Skies in conjunction with FF/HR/etc. than the same aided by Magic Missiles. Even at 20d rolled with it perhaps Laughing , but definitely by the 40d that it would precipitate, (opponent would be "fighting in the shade", no? Wink ). Those 40d would be hitting at a 50+% clip as opposed to the 33% giving by FF/HR/etc. + DtS, and the level of control over which enemy units would be targeted (very few wasted rolls if played well) is what would end the game.

Some more comments about this, as Vassal is down, and I woke early to occupy myself with BL, so unfortunately dear reader, this is how I choose to do so Very Happy

If I have five human archers in a CtA game, I am taking Longbows and Stakes 4 out of 5 times, just as the dentists recommend. The fifth time I would take something else, just to throw my opponent a bone Wink Laughing

And comparing "combos" of cc's and lore cards to lone lore cards that must be played in conjunction with a cc, isn't apples to oranges - maybe Braeburns to Red Delicious's Wink I'll take my chances with HR coupled with a scout over that same play alongside a mounted charge in most instances. The Cleric spells are powerful cards, but that power still has to be used to its greatest advantage. Considering any lore play without regards to game conditions doesn't create much significance. Considering it compared to the likelihood of desired conditions occurring is what brings meaning to the discussion. There is a very good reason why the chance of Darken the Skies and Magic Missiles arriving in a players hand at the same time and the board conditions being optimal for such a play is of low occurrence Very Happy , but when that perfect storm hits, the effects are disasterous. Creating/falling into particular perfect storm moments for the particular lore cards in one's hand more quickly and more often than one's opponent is how one prevails in the lore games of BL.

EDIT: grammatical errors. Yes, I really wish Vassal would come back online Laughing

[Updated on: Sat, 11 August 2007 14:54]

      
jasper66
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July 2007
Re:maybe to powerful Sat, 18 August 2007 03:29
I have a house rule that edits all three of the cleric cards in question to affect enemy units on those terrain tiles and NOT adjacent tiles. This generally only affects 2 to 3 units per game so far when these cards have been played.
      
JMcL63
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Re:maybe to powerful Mon, 20 August 2007 05:35
With this HR/FF/RR topic already some 8 months old (Battlelore itself was released barely 2 months before this topic first reared its head) at least this thread shows that we're no longer witnessing the feeding frenzy of this spring (see toddrew's 1st post on page 1 for links to the key threads if you're interested). That simple fact in itself makes me think that people actually playing games of Battlelore have learned that the worst fears of the 'these cards are broken' crowd have proved quite over the top.

There are various ways to consider these cards in the game, and in the arguments of the complainers.

The first point I want to make is to restate my opinion that these cards are entirely appropriate in a game like Battlelore, a game of heroes, monsters, and mighty magics after all. I mean to say: almost as soon as the HR/FF/RR furore first blew up, the first thing I thought of was a Conan the Barbarian story (one of several like it it turns out) in which the power of a lone sorceror destroys most of an entire army on a desert battlefield. It's been a while since I read the story, so I can't remember the title, let alone the details, but I seem to remember that the battle might well have qualified as Epic BL in its scale. And, of course, other people could easily post different examples from other fantasy classics where the power of magic dwarfs that of the infamous HR/FF/RR cards in Battlelore.

Beyond that, both the power of the cards and their low casting cost is utterly evocative of the Uchronia setting of Battlelore. What do these cards represent in the game after all? Nothing other than the fact that there is no power greater than the wrath of God, a god which bears a striking resemblance to the Christian god which will be well known to many Battlelore players. In other words, these much maligned cards tell us that we are in a world which both is and is not the real world of 15th century Europe, with all its high chivalric trappings plus a dash of classic post-D&D fantasy.

As if all of this wasn't enough, the oft-repeated claims that playing the HR/FF/RR cards isn't fun for either side should prove that the complainers are plainly just missing the point of the game as a whole. Now I'm not trying to be rude here, but Battlelore is a battle game clearly designed to allow players to wield powers which dwarf the imagination of mortal man. That's exactly what the various 'nuke' Command/Lore cards and related combos are all about.

I mean to say: consider Battlelore's sister game Memoir'44. The most dice you can (or are likely to: more is technically possible, but vanishingly unlikely- but that's the power of blitzkrieg for you) muster in a single turn is 32. And that's with 4 perfectly placed tank units using the special Armoured Assault tactics card rolling the ideal dice for their attacks. So the whole point of Battlelore cardplays which can generate this 32 dice and more is to create a world whose fantastic powers dwarf even those of the mighty Panzer divisions of WW2.

If you don't like to run the risk of seeing your best laid plans being laid waste by fortunate card draws, smart cardplay and some good dice, then it seems to me that you might want to ask yourself why you're playing Battlelore in the first place. More than that though: if you don't like being the victim of such plays, perhaps you should also be asking yourself why on earth your opponent should share your feelings?

I mean, OK, if I was playing against a complete beginner, I wouldn't want utterly to humiliate them- I'd want them to like the game enough to play again after all. And the gaming version of stealing candy from babies is cheap isn't it? But nor would I want to give them a freebie- for the same reason. Which is why I always let Battlelore beginners play the French at Agincourt: they get to play the stronger side, and I get the challenge of trying to win with the weaker side.

But against an experienced and/or regular opponent? Simple: the harder I can hit them the better. And if they squeal a bit as I crush them completely then all the more fun for me. That's why me and my pals play boardgames: for the challenge, the banter and the bragging rights. Sure, the losers are always allowed their legitimate whinges, but enough to spoil someone else's fun because 'you only won because you got XXX unbeatable thingy'? No. That's not right.

Which is why I find myself wondering what kind of game the HR/FF/RR complainers think they're playing. They're certainly playing the same Battlelore as the rest of us. It just seems to me that they want the game to deliver a different experience from the one the clear majority of fans (as represented here on this forum) are enjoying. So houserule the game to fit your own wishes as much as you like, but please don't come along and insist that the rest of us go along with your minority opinions. Wink

[Updated on: Mon, 20 August 2007 08:27]

      
ColtsFan76
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Re:maybe to powerful Mon, 20 August 2007 07:02
Oh dear Lord John! What are you doing?!?

"Hey everyone, there's a crack in this dam! No worries, I'll just fix it with my sledge hammer."

Let the tidal wave begin....
      
JMcL63
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Re:maybe to powerful Mon, 20 August 2007 07:30
ColtsFan76 wrote on Mon, 20 August 2007 06:02

Oh dear Lord John! What are you doing?!?

"Hey everyone, there's a crack in this dam! No worries, I'll just fix it with my sledge hammer."

Let the tidal wave begin....


That one made me laugh! Smile

Erm, I just couldn't help myself Coltsfan. Embarassed This issue's been bugging me since my last, unfortunate exchange with cebalrai. I was trying to be direct without being confrontational. You think I've overdone it then? Hmm... Wink
      
Scragnoth
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Re:maybe to powerful Mon, 20 August 2007 07:36
Actualy JMcL63 post should have been the last on this topic (yes, that's just my opinion).
A spot on, thorough desciption of our beloved game and its mechanics.

People will agree while others disagree. What will be the impact of that? Nothing.

DoW will not change their game.
So could someone please explain to me why, if you have so much trouble following the rules provided by DoW, you don't use houserules and fix your problems.

I think the term "official rules" is overrated and misplaced.
There is no pro-tour or competition that needs official rules, so consider them as "the one that came with the game".
You all play fan created adventures, do you? Not only the official ones?
      
Captain Kremmen
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Re:maybe to powerful Mon, 20 August 2007 23:30
Hello all,

I am sorry but i am rather new to battlelore. I have played 12 games of CCA so am familiar with the series, but not yet the battlelore magic.

I don't understand how someone can have the lore to fire a 7 point spell on the first turn?

Would someone mind explaining the mechanics of how they got that much lore to spend?

Andy
PS I am going to use the house rule that these spells only do 2d damage per target unit.
      
badger89
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Re:maybe to powerful Mon, 20 August 2007 23:48
can i just say,slightly off topic,that as a person who plays john regularly at BL he does try his best to do me as much damage as possible and win in the most glourious (for him) and humiliating (for me) was possible.
But i do the same with or without a cleric or the cards mentioned before.
but do you think we can stop this now. It seems to me that this has reached its end.
there are those of us who think that the cards and combinations are okay and fine and dont mind.
there are those who disagree with us.
I think we can all agree that those two lovely words should be used HOUSE RULES people
      
ColtsFan76
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Re:maybe to powerful Tue, 21 August 2007 00:36
Captain Kremmen wrote on Mon, 20 August 2007 16:30

Hello all,

I am sorry but i am rather new to battlelore. I have played 12 games of CCA so am familiar with the series, but not yet the battlelore magic.

I don't understand how someone can have the lore to fire a 7 point spell on the first turn?

Would someone mind explaining the mechanics of how they got that much lore to spend?

Andy

Each person starts with a number of Lore Tokens equal to their highest Lore Master. So we assume a Level 3 Cleric. Therefore 3 Tokens. From Call to Arms, one of the Specialist cards allows the Cleric to take 2 Lore tokens for every Level above 1. So if you are Level 3, then you are 2 levels above Level 1. 2 x2 is 4 more Lore Tokens. That gives you the 7 lore tokens you need to be able to play HR/FF/RR on the first turn.

Quote:

PS I am going to use the house rule that these spells only do 2d damage per target unit.

Before you do that, I would suggest that you check out JMcL63's proposal for a house rule. Basically, any unit ON the terrain in question still gets hit with 1d/L +1 so that the card is tied in with the Level of a Cleric. Then any units on the adjacent terrain gets hit with 1 dice. That way the brunt is still on those in the terrain itself but the "tremor" is less severe. If I had a problem with these cards, this is the one I would adopt. Here is the original post:
http://www.daysofwonder.com/en/msg/?goto=91986#msg_91986

[Updated on: Tue, 21 August 2007 00:44]

      
cebalrai
Senior Member

Posts: 232
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Re:maybe to powerful Tue, 21 August 2007 06:29
JMcL63 wrote on Sun, 19 August 2007 23:35

With this HR/FF/RR topic already some 8 months old (Battlelore itself was released barely 2 months before this topic first reared its head) at least this thread shows that we're no longer witnessing the feeding frenzy of this spring (see toddrew's 1st post on page 1 for links to the key threads if you're interested). That simple fact in itself makes me think that people actually playing games of Battlelore have learned that the worst fears of the 'these cards are broken' crowd have proved quite over the top.

There are various ways to consider these cards in the game, and in the arguments of the complainers.

The first point I want to make is to restate my opinion that these cards are entirely appropriate in a game like Battlelore, a game of heroes, monsters, and mighty magics after all. I mean to say: almost as soon as the HR/FF/RR furore first blew up, the first thing I thought of was a Conan the Barbarian story (one of several like it it turns out) in which the power of a lone sorceror destroys most of an entire army on a desert battlefield. It's been a while since I read the story, so I can't remember the title, let alone the details, but I seem to remember that the battle might well have qualified as Epic BL in its scale. And, of course, other people could easily post different examples from other fantasy classics where the power of magic dwarfs that of the infamous HR/FF/RR cards in Battlelore.

Beyond that, both the power of the cards and their low casting cost is utterly evocative of the Uchronia setting of Battlelore. What do these cards represent in the game after all? Nothing other than the fact that there is no power greater than the wrath of God, a god which bears a striking resemblance to the Christian god which will be well known to many Battlelore players. In other words, these much maligned cards tell us that we are in a world which both is and is not the real world of 15th century Europe, with all its high chivalric trappings plus a dash of classic post-D&D fantasy.

As if all of this wasn't enough, the oft-repeated claims that playing the HR/FF/RR cards isn't fun for either side should prove that the complainers are plainly just missing the point of the game as a whole. Now I'm not trying to be rude here, but Battlelore is a battle game clearly designed to allow players to wield powers which dwarf the imagination of mortal man. That's exactly what the various 'nuke' Command/Lore cards and related combos are all about.

I mean to say: consider Battlelore's sister game Memoir'44. The most dice you can (or are likely to: more is technically possible, but vanishingly unlikely- but that's the power of blitzkrieg for you) muster in a single turn is 32. And that's with 4 perfectly placed tank units using the special Armoured Assault tactics card rolling the ideal dice for their attacks. So the whole point of Battlelore cardplays which can generate this 32 dice and more is to create a world whose fantastic powers dwarf even those of the mighty Panzer divisions of WW2.

If you don't like to run the risk of seeing your best laid plans being laid waste by fortunate card draws, smart cardplay and some good dice, then it seems to me that you might want to ask yourself why you're playing Battlelore in the first place. More than that though: if you don't like being the victim of such plays, perhaps you should also be asking yourself why on earth your opponent should share your feelings?

I mean, OK, if I was playing against a complete beginner, I wouldn't want utterly to humiliate them- I'd want them to like the game enough to play again after all. And the gaming version of stealing candy from babies is cheap isn't it? But nor would I want to give them a freebie- for the same reason. Which is why I always let Battlelore beginners play the French at Agincourt: they get to play the stronger side, and I get the challenge of trying to win with the weaker side.

But against an experienced and/or regular opponent? Simple: the harder I can hit them the better. And if they squeal a bit as I crush them completely then all the more fun for me. That's why me and my pals play boardgames: for the challenge, the banter and the bragging rights. Sure, the losers are always allowed their legitimate whinges, but enough to spoil someone else's fun because 'you only won because you got XXX unbeatable thingy'? No. That's not right.

Which is why I find myself wondering what kind of game the HR/FF/RR complainers think they're playing. They're certainly playing the same Battlelore as the rest of us. It just seems to me that they want the game to deliver a different experience from the one the clear majority of fans (as represented here on this forum) are enjoying. So houserule the game to fit your own wishes as much as you like, but please don't come along and insist that the rest of us go along with your minority opinions. Wink


This whole post seems strange to me. Its as if you're suggesting that if the healer doesn't do about 40 dice of damage then the theme is ruined. You can't tell me that a couple mid-cost cleric cards were meant to define the Battlelore experience.

Check this out: Replace the nuke cards with a few "Wrath of God" flavored cards that are balanced with the other 7-cost lore cards in the game. *POOF* now you have the same great theme as always, the idiosyncrasies of the cleric are ironed out, and the rotten spot in the game mechanics no longer exists.

And you're making an awful big assumption stating that players of your opinion are in the majority. I know dozens of players and literally all of them say they're put off on Battlelore because of this issue - most of them even more than I am. If you want, you could count me in for a block of dozens of gamers who find the nuke cards to be a major fun-ruining problem.

I game with one group that has seventy members and a couple small groups that total 20 more. After stacks of Battlelore games were initially purchased, only one person bought CtA (me), and nobody has pursued any other expansions. The game only very rarely gets played in any of my groups now, and many players have sworn it off entirely.

I'm not saying that either side of this debate is larger than the other because it's impossible to know. But claiming to be in the majority after observing a 3-to-2 headcount on a forum is foolish. And dismissing what we have to say as "minority opinions" is arrogant.

[Updated on: Tue, 21 August 2007 07:29]

      
cebalrai
Senior Member

Posts: 232
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August 2005
Re:maybe to powerful Tue, 21 August 2007 07:02
JMcL63 wrote on Sun, 19 August 2007 23:35

please don't come along and insist that the rest of us go along with your minority opinions. Wink


And wow, please understand this: NOBODY IS INSISTING THAT YOU GO ALONG WITH ANYTHING.

You're missing or ignoring dozens of posts where several individuals have asked for *optional* replacement cards. I'm putting it in caps now so we're all clear. Cool

[Updated on: Tue, 21 August 2007 07:30]

      
cebalrai
Senior Member

Posts: 232
Registered:
August 2005
Re:maybe to powerful Tue, 21 August 2007 07:09
ack, repost.

[Updated on: Tue, 21 August 2007 07:22]

      
Shane Andrews
Junior Member

Posts: 18
Registered:
August 2007
Re:maybe to powerful Tue, 21 August 2007 07:21
i think I would have to agree with cebrali on this. It would have been better if the "nuke cards" were written a different way I guess. Jmc is right that it is a game where random card draws change the course of the game though. But a few cards might go overboard with this idea. Razz
      
dbc-
Senior Member

Posts: 180
Registered:
December 2006
Re:maybe to powerful Tue, 21 August 2007 08:15
cebalrai wrote on Tue, 21 August 2007 06:29

I'm not saying that either side of this debate is larger than the other because it's impossible to know. But claiming to be in the majority after observing a 3-to-2 headcount on a forum is foolish. And dismissing what we have to say as "minority opinions" is arrogant.

Exactly!
I would also like to point out that this thread has been revived by a handful of new posters who dislike the cards.
There is really no way of saying how many people has been turned off by these cards.
And I still can't see the problem in printing a set of optional replacement cards, to fix this issue and lay the discussion to rest.
      
guest374110
Junior Member

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August 2007
Re:maybe to powerful Tue, 21 August 2007 17:48
ColtsFan76 wrote on Mon, 20 August 2007 18:36

Captain Kremmen wrote on Mon, 20 August 2007 16:30

Hello all,

I am sorry but i am rather new to battlelore. I have played 12 games of CCA so am familiar with the series, but not yet the battlelore magic.

I don't understand how someone can have the lore to fire a 7 point spell on the first turn?

Would someone mind explaining the mechanics of how they got that much lore to spend?

Andy

Each person starts with a number of Lore Tokens equal to their highest Lore Master. So we assume a Level 3 Cleric. Therefore 3 Tokens. From Call to Arms, one of the Specialist cards allows the Cleric to take 2 Lore tokens for every Level above 1. So if you are Level 3, then you are 2 levels above Level 1. 2 x2 is 4 more Lore Tokens. That gives you the 7 lore tokens you need to be able to play HR/FF/RR on the first turn.

Quote:

PS I am going to use the house rule that these spells only do 2d damage per target unit.

Before you do that, I would suggest that you check out JMcL63's proposal for a house rule. Basically, any unit ON the terrain in question still gets hit with 1d/L +1 so that the card is tied in with the Level of a Cleric. Then any units on the adjacent terrain gets hit with 1 dice. That way the brunt is still on those in the terrain itself but the "tremor" is less severe. If I had a problem with these cards, this is the one I would adopt. Here is the original post:
http://www.daysofwonder.com/en/msg/?goto=91986#msg_91986



Hi Coltsfan 76, appreciate the reply. I don't have call to arms yet, probably why i missed the reference to the 2 specialist cards.

Apologies if causing confusion, I am really captain kremmen but i'm at work and don't have my log in details so made up a new account.

My 2p's worth - i would strongly support limiting the magic spells in battlelore to a reasonable moderate level. The "Nuke's" that are being discussed here, would in my opinion ruin the game completely. There will of course be a number of people who want to play the game with "Nukes" but i actually suspect these people are in the minority. Not my call but i would support DOW having an optional set of rules for eliminating the "Nukes". I think the lore system should add flavour to the game, not completely replace the core combat rules in significance.

Ta

Captain Kremmen (nbr 2)
      
sdafilli
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Re:maybe to powerful Tue, 21 August 2007 19:50

Two words to all those not in favour of these "nuke" cards........ HOUSE RULES !!!

(and there are plenty of them suggested by others, including the one suggested by DoW... cause DoW have made it very clear that the cards were intended the way they're worded, and they're NOT going to budge on this topic)
      
badger89
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Re:maybe to powerful Tue, 21 August 2007 20:58
can we stop this now please its going round in circles and if we are honest its going nowhere.
      
ColtsFan76
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Re:maybe to powerful Tue, 21 August 2007 21:25
badger89 wrote on Tue, 21 August 2007 13:58

can we stop this now please its going round in circles and if we are honest its going nowhere.


Just ride the wave. You can't stop it so try to enjoy the ride.
      
Scragnoth
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Re:maybe to powerful Tue, 21 August 2007 21:26
Scragnoth wrote on Mon, 20 August 2007 07:36


So could someone please explain to me why, if you have so much trouble following the rules provided by DoW, you don't use houserules and fix your problems.

I think the term "official rules" is overrated and misplaced.
There is no pro-tour or competition that needs official rules, so consider them as "the one that came with the game".
You all play fan created adventures, do you? Not only the official ones?


A lot of complains about the cards (and that is very easy, its just repeating others) but none of the complainers cared to answer the questions I stated above....
      
Captain Kremmen
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Re:maybe to powerful Tue, 21 August 2007 22:59
Scragnoth wrote on Tue, 21 August 2007 20:26

Scragnoth wrote on Mon, 20 August 2007 07:36


So could someone please explain to me why, if you have so much trouble following the rules provided by DoW, you don't use houserules and fix your problems.

I think the term "official rules" is overrated and misplaced.
There is no pro-tour or competition that needs official rules, so consider them as "the one that came with the game".
You all play fan created adventures, do you? Not only the official ones?


A lot of complains about the cards (and that is very easy, its just repeating others) but none of the complainers cared to answer the questions I stated above....


I'll have a go at answering your point. This is only my experience of other games systems....

It is easy to get a group of friends to agree to play a game to the "Rules in the box" after all they are the rules...

If you put forward 5 different house rules the chance of getting everyone to agree to playing any of them is zero Smile

Now just maybe my friends are more irritating than yours.

Personally I am going to lie to my friends and tell them the downgraded house rules are the new official rule and hope they don't check up on it Smile

Cpt K
      
Roobarb
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Re:maybe to powerful Wed, 22 August 2007 05:00
my name is deago montoya .. you killed my father propear to die Twisted Evil
      
cebalrai
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Re:maybe to powerful Wed, 22 August 2007 06:01
Scragnoth wrote on Tue, 21 August 2007 15:26

Scragnoth wrote on Mon, 20 August 2007 07:36


So could someone please explain to me why, if you have so much trouble following the rules provided by DoW, you don't use houserules and fix your problems.

I think the term "official rules" is overrated and misplaced.
There is no pro-tour or competition that needs official rules, so consider them as "the one that came with the game".
You all play fan created adventures, do you? Not only the official ones?


A lot of complains about the cards (and that is very easy, its just repeating others) but none of the complainers cared to answer the questions I stated above....


Two reasons really.

#1 - People I game with think something like "What? This game needs house rules just make it not suck? Let's just play these other games over there that are fine right out of the box." Many people I game with simply do not play with house rules in any game.

#2 - People in many gaming groups simply do not agree on house rules. There are lots of ways to fix the nuke cards. The one that DoW tossed out is extremely lame and poorly thought out. I don't like it at all and nobody I know expresses any support for it. So no help from DoW... Crying or Very Sad
      
mvettemagred
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Re:maybe to powerful Wed, 22 August 2007 15:28
cebalrai wrote on Tue, 21 August 2007 00:29

... I game with one group that has seventy members and a couple small groups that total 20 more. After stacks of Battlelore games were initially purchased, only one person bought CtA (me), and nobody has pursued any other expansions. The game only very rarely gets played in any of my groups now, and many players have sworn it off entirely.

Well, several online game retailers list the Battlelore expansions as current best sellers, so SOMEONE is buying them...

My last game was an interesting one. My buddy and I played a custom Epic scenario with 15 forest and 15 hills. His attacking Dwarven army had to get 7 banners and occupy my Stronghold (to retrieve his holy relic -- see scenario 2289U for the latest version). My defending Goblinoid army had to just get 7 banners. We each had a L2 Cleric.

Over the course of the game, we each cast both HR and FF. That's four 'nuke' spells in one game! Obviously, the situation and impact was different each time one of these spells was cast, so they didn't just cancel each other out. But in no instance did we consider the result overpowering (max dice was 30), or in any way something that predetermined the outcome of the game. There was so much ebb and flow in this game, that these four 'nuke' spells just blended in with all the other card plays. In fact, when we looked back, the most memorable event was a lucky roll early in the game with his Axe Wielders against my Hill Giant. He rolled one hit, then got the critical with the one-die reroll. I didn't even get to attack with my Giant. Sad

As it turns out, I won the game the turn before my buddy was going to cast Portal and "teleport" one of his units onto my Stronghold, thus ending the game. One of our closest games ever.

This session recap is not to convince anyone that these cards are balanced or not. It's just to give some of the newer players another example of a game where these spells were cast several times, but were definitely not the determining factor in the game. If you have a game or two where a big HR/FF is cast, rest assured you'll also have games where they are cast without much effect, or are never cast. For me and my friends, this is enough to keep playing the cards as written.
      
cebalrai
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Re:maybe to powerful Wed, 22 August 2007 17:22
The original poster lost a third of his army on the first turn to a HR card and a L2 Cleric.

Twice.

[Updated on: Wed, 22 August 2007 17:22]

      
gheintze
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Re:maybe to powerful Wed, 22 August 2007 17:26
Bored
      
cebalrai
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Re:maybe to powerful Wed, 22 August 2007 17:34
Actually...

I don't even believe that with a whopping 15 forest and 15 hills that dual HR and FF "blended in" with the other cards in the game. No way. Each one of those cards in such dense terrain is going to mean rolling dozens of dice.

I think your definition of 'blended in' is all loosey-goosey Smile . In what way does nuking for dozens of dice over and over again fit in with the rest of the lore card deck?

Also... Lemme call you on this one:

mvettemagred wrote on Wed, 22 August 2007 09:28



This session recap is not to convince anyone that these cards are balanced or not.


Yes it is. That's the whole point of your post - providing evidence to your argument. You can at least be direct here. No need to make a disclaimer.

[Updated on: Wed, 22 August 2007 21:34]

      
ColtsFan76
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Re:maybe to powerful Wed, 22 August 2007 17:57
cebalrai wrote on Wed, 22 August 2007 10:34


Also... Lemme call you on this one:

mvettemagred wrote on Wed, 22 August 2007 09:28



This session recap is not to convince anyone that these cards are balanced or not.


Yes it is. That's the whole point of your post - providing evidence to your argument. You can at least be direct here. No need to make a disclaimer.

I think his meaning was that he didn't expect to convince anyone. He is showing evidence to support his position. But I don't think anyone is naive enough at this point to think they can convince the other side to change their position.

Scratch that. Some people still think they are going to get DOW to budge.
      
sdafilli
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Re:maybe to powerful Wed, 22 August 2007 18:13
Cebalrai, your tit-for-tat responses, are of a purely childish nature and beyond annoying, and have become a waste of time... this debate has long been over, but it seems that your persistence on this topic is purely for self-gratification/pleasure, and not constructive...

DoW, despite their reluctance, provided their house-rule. As you've said several times, you don't like it, and are probably demanding that another one is suggested "officially" by DoW (cause you and your gaming group just refuse to do otherwise). Face it, Cebalrai, you're not going to get that pleasure cause DoW have said that they won't change their stance. In fact Cebalrai, it probably wouldn't matter how many "fixes" DoW comes up with... you still will be in disagreeance... unless of course it's YOUR "fix"/house rule. Given that this won't happen, learn to live with what life has to hand you... alternatively, just go right ahead and play the game with whatever house rule you like best... why not even give it a name, "The Cebalrai Ultimate" ruling while your at it, if it will make you feel better...

It's your choice (including your gaming group's and anyone else of similar opinion) to either play with a house rule, exclude the cards altogether, make your own cards, design your own game..... or, don't forget... you still have the option to never play the game again (until possibly, on the blue moon that DoW bends over backwards and implements YOUR suggestion...whatever that may ever be)

As to whether DoW has taken the correct stance on this issue, only time will tell through ongoing sales and the progression of this game.... for now it appears that there has likely been no significant detrimental impact...

[Updated on: Wed, 22 August 2007 18:17]

      
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