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Rolli
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May 2005
Re:NC 2007 - all information and rules Fri, 24 August 2007 23:03
This is getting weird now.

First.

What is nation?

Wikipedia may help us here.
For the not German people: there it says that a nation does not mean people that come from the same contry or state. A nation is a community of people who speak the same language or have same rituals, customs or preferences. So we might say, TtR players are a nation. Wink

So: Why should Anu not be allowed to play with the Nederlands and Swiss?

Second.

If you wanted a NationsCup only with teams whose players come from one country, you should not allow 2 or 3 German, French or US teams but let all player from these countries play in one team. They are from ONE country -> ONE TEAM!

Third.
I think I can speak for bas if I say NC was made for fun! Everyone should play with persons he likes and likes to play with in a team. If there are persons he does not like, he shouldn't play with them in a team. For sure it is compitition. But you should not start crying if you loose, but should be cheerful and glad about the winning persons.

So: If there are not enough players Anu would like to play with (from Finalnd) let her play with Jac and Annabel (who don't have enough players they can / want to play with) and the Nederlands.

And how erps would say, this is not how it should be done, just my oppinion. Wink

Best wishes, Yours,

Rolli
      
SOJA Patterson
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T2R 2010 World Champion

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January 2006
Re:NC 2007 - all information and rules Fri, 24 August 2007 23:44
Hi my fellow TTR players,

Thank you for the warm welcome of our team. Some of you made NC2007 already unforgettable for us.

Mr Bean and bassie already explained how the team formation went.
Yes indeed, I put 10 players on the list, but like said before Leleline_J and Goan are more like supporters than actual players. This leaves former Team Orange with 5 players, and some of them are lucky enough too have some holidays during NC, and will thus not be able to play. But then a brilliant thought hit me.... let's ask an UFO (Unidentified Finnish tOp) to boost the ranking of my team.

For those of you not understanding sarcasm, I will explain what really happened. I looked in the top300 list to find another decent Dutch player who might be interested in NC2007, but I found no one. At that time Leleline_M approached me to ask about our plans. Being under the assumption that both Marie and Joli would be eligible to play for a Dutch team, I hoped we could finally form Team Orange. However, it appeared that Marie is not Dutch and that Joli has no steady access to internet. But the escape clause was the formation of a Dutch/Swiss team, so we could also include Jac_.

And at that point of the original FINg-ShUI team only Anu_ was left as active player without a team. But Anu_ made some mistakes: first of all, she is a good TTR player currently ranked in the top20, and even worse, she went to this secret meeting in Switzerland and was stupid enough to be photographed with some known Dutch players, so that later on the Dutch players could be accused of forming a pact with a mercenary top player to finally survive the round robin. Yes, yes, all sarcasm again.

Seeing the somewhat complicated nature of our team, I read the rules a couple of times (our team is not against the rules, unless erps finally gets his 8 Dutch players with 1200pts together) and contacted thadd to see if it was okay to enter NC2007 with our team. thadd agreed and then I made this unforgettable entry in the NC2007 Teams thread and then... all hell broke loose.

I do not mind the objections against the team, but I despise the way some people discuss it in this thread, especially the way Anu_ is treated like some kind of criminal or if not Anu_ then the rest of the team. And all this hyprocritical: O Anu_, it is not personal. I can tell you that someone is feeling it very personally at the moment.

We entered the NC2007 to have competitive fun with our online TTR friends, and yes, of course we hoped to win, but the accusations that we randomly scraped players together to win is completely outrageous.
I also agree that the team is different from other participating teams, but the Dutch, Swiss and Finnish players do not have the luxury of a large community of players to fall back on. So yes it is an elitist tournament, but I hope it is not only for the countries with a large community of online players.

All said and done, I am severely pissed off by some of the reactions in this thread, and hopeful about some voices of reason I saw inbetween. I hope that some can overcome their obsession with points and rankings, and only having a complete life after winning the NC.
I hope we can all take at heart the spirit with which The Dutch Connection originally entered the competition: "to a successful and fun NC2007 with beautiful and thrilling matches". I would be severely disappointed if we cannot participate in our original line-up.

Patterson

      
erps
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Re:NC 2007 - all information and rules Sat, 25 August 2007 00:13
Hi

The only one who was getting personal was bassie in his post. I gave my arguments and i still don't like any of the transnational thing going on. I definitly think the last year Peter decision was a fault. I can live with the Transnational teams with 3 or less players from one country, but i don't think it is fair to add player from a another country to a team of 5 or more players. This should never be allowed by the rules.

And your reasons for founding the team will not getting better the more often you tell them. I understand it perfectly, but in my opinion it doesn't matter if there are holidays or other personal issues. If a player can't play most of the time, don't put him on the list or put so much players on the list that there are always enough for playing.

And the last point, what some of you will never understand: The big nations have clearly a disadvantage in forming many teams. It is impossible to form the best possible team (a number one team) because connections between players, problems or the quicker questioning leads to the situation that most german teams (e.g.) are equally strong and the players are distributed from top 5 to top 50. No way to get the 5 best players of germany together. The other big nations have similar problems, at least the captain of the second or third team is mostly a player strong enough to play in Team A. Your small team has all the best dutch players and then it has the possibility to recruit players better than your best. The current rules make the big nations weaker and the tiny nations stronger and not vice versa.

It will not happen because of other reasons: But let's say, thekid is no longer welcome in ANY american team and so he is searching for another team and GTS or our team is offering him shelter. It's the same decision as last year with Peter, i see no reason why the TD should decide against him. It's clearly no good rule.

bye, erps

Edit: Last year i translated the rules and for me it was clear that rule TN.4 reads:

4. Ein Team darf aus Teilnehmern mehrerer Nationen bestehen, falls keine Teams dieser Nationen gebildet werden können.
[ A team is allowed to be transnational, if it is not possible to build a team for these nations ]
-> In my version it is against the rules, because with 7 players it is possible to build a dutch team.

My Draft (for nearly one year available):
(4) Teams
The Nations Cup is a competition for teams with players of the same nationality, with some exceptions.
(4a) Players who live, study or work in country A and have nationality B may play for either A or B.
(4b) Players with a double nationality may choose for which country they play.
(4c) A team formed by players working for DoW may be transnational.
(4d) Two or more not completed teams of different countries may form a transnational team. This is even possible if there are completed teams of one or both countries.
(4e) A team is "completed" having at least one more member than the required number of members for every clash.
(4f) Several teams per country are allowed.
(4g) If a team is not able to finish a round, it forfeits all unplayed games and loses therewith each unfinished match.
(4h) The Team's rank is decided by the sum of ratings of best 6 players as of a date stated in the rules. The rank of a team is deciding the group division in the round robin group phase as stated in the rules.
(4i) Every team is free to choose a name; by default, every team gets the name of the team members' country/ies and a consecutively number. (e.g. Germany I, Germany II or Dutch-Belgium).

I always said: Make a rule board, i offered a draft with the corrected rules and i always thought that TN.4 was meant this way. Obviously the forming of the dutch team showed that this is not the case.

Another Edit: There are enough sports that allow teams like germany II or USA III but not one allows transnational teams.

[Updated on: Sat, 25 August 2007 00:49]

      
SYN Stephan1972
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December 2006
  Re:NC 2007 - all information and rules Sat, 25 August 2007 00:21
Just a few observations:

- the rules governing the composition of teams have been available for all to see for a long time
- Dutch connection is within these rules
- Some people are now objecting once they see who is within this team

My views:

Don't rewrite rules based on specific individuals or specific teams, but instead do so as a matter of principle in the cold light of day. If everyone had agreed two weeks ago, "This rule is not correct and should be changed" then fine, but to do so now doesn't feel right to me. Also, remember that those arguing about it now are not unbiased neutrals, but members of opposition teams Wink I suggest a rethink after the tournament to decide well in advance of next year's NC what the rules should be

In an ideal world, there would be one team for each nation/country. However, this is not football, with many good players from many countries. There is only a small pool of players for each country to choose from.

Also, remember the flip side of this, in the football world cup Brazil can only enter one team. If the Nation's Cup became a one country-one team tournament, there would be many German and US players not being able to play.

Conclusion: the rules have to respect the principle that players should join together in teams according to nationality, but there also have to be differences from the standard international team tournament system (edit: apart from bob sleighing Wink) so that everyone has a chance of joining in.

[Updated on: Sat, 25 August 2007 00:41]

      
ATN Drake
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Re:NC 2007 - all information and rules Sat, 25 August 2007 00:55
I completely understand how the team was formed, and if I was the captain I would try to do the same thing. Most people playing in the NC want to win, so why not try to make the best team possible. No one really wants an 1100 player on their team, but if this is truly a Nation's Cup, maybe that's what you have to make due with.

bassie wrote on Fri, 24 August 2007 12:11

I would have loved a Dutch team (to be honest, I like the solution our captain found even more Very Happy). But what if the people we know don't make a team of their own (and we know many)? Send random PMs to people we have never spoken to before?


I don't think the NC should be about forming a team with friends. That would be another tournament. The NC is about playing for your Nation.

You make it sound like sending random PMs to someone from your country is absurd. That's how I got on the team. I didn't know anyone, and just got a random PM from SKM asking me if I wanted to join the team.

I'm wondering what would happen if a System Wide PM went out to all players rated higher than 1300 or 1400 and asked if they wanted to play in the NC, how many people might be interested.

I don't really care how this is ruled, but my opinion is that if a nation can get X number of players (I think erps suggested 6, I might go with 7), then they can't be a transnational team. Of course even a rule like this could be manipulated - a couple reserve players could just drop from the team since they weren't really planning on playing much, if at all, to bring the number below 7 (or 6), then the team could be transnational.




      
Mr Bean
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Re:NC 2007 - all information and rules Sat, 25 August 2007 01:07
erps wrote on Sat, 25 August 2007 00:13



And your reasons for founding the team will not getting better the more often you tell them. I understand it perfectly, but in my opinion it doesn't matter if there are holidays or other personal issues. If a player can't play most of the time, don't put him on the list or put so much players on the list that there are always enough for playing.


Erps, did you check to read what you wrote here? i can hardly imagine you did: we told you several times now that we could not get enough, so what is your solution? put more on the list.


erps wrote on Sat, 25 August 2007 00:13


And the last point, what some of you will never understand: The big nations have clearly a disadvantage in forming many teams. It is impossible to form the best possible team (a number one team) because connections between players, problems or the quicker questioning leads to the situation that most german teams (e.g.) are equally strong and the players are distributed from top 5 to top 50. No way to get the 5 best players of germany together. The other big nations have similar problems, at least the captain of the second or third team is mostly a player strong enough to play in Team A. Your small team has all the best dutch players and then it has the possibility to recruit players better than your best. The current rules make the big nations weaker and the tiny nations stronger and not vice versa.



here again you are not doing your 'cause' much good. it sounds very much as if you know you are defending a hopeless position.

1st of all it is definitely not the RULES that are preventing a big country from fielding their strongest possible side. the reasons you mention have nothing to do with the rules.

2nd your idea of 'getting the 5 best dutch players' proves that you still haven't got the point. we have not chosen together the best 5 but the ONLY 5 available, who perforce of course are then also the best 5, but the word choice implies something else.

what you are suggesting is that we sent away loads of dutch players (all but the best 5), took a look at the list of smaller nations, chose the best players from that and added them to make a super team ?!?! is it so hard to accept what really happened?


erps wrote on Sat, 25 August 2007 00:13


It will not happen because of other reasons: But let's say, thekid is no longer welcome in ANY american team and so he is searching for another team and GTS or our team is offering him shelter. It's the same decision as last year with Peter, i see no reason why the TD should decide against him. It's clearly no good rule.



if this very hypothetical situation ever arose, i could not care less if he played on another team. in fact, the same goes for him as for Anu (and several others including yourself): some players belong in NC and if need be i wouldn't even be against a little rule-bending to make it happen (which by the way and a very big by the way is NOT the case here !!)
it's always sad that some great footballers never get to play a World Cup because their country doesn't qualify.





      
youki
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July 2005
Re:NC 2007 - all information and rules Sat, 25 August 2007 01:14
Pffffffffffff .....

I did not read all posts - it was just too much shit!

Erps go and read more rules books please ... lol man ... sebbo and the kid you too please ...

Step aside from the game, try to seperate your ego from ttr ...

It is just a game ... it is a game where in a best of 7 too much luck is involved to make it a really good game such as chess or bridge.

I have been away from ttr for about a year or more. I have always liked the game for the nice people and the layed back atmosphere and ... sure the discussions were always nice.

But really guys, you are taking yourselves far too seriously here!!! Erps, Sebbo, Kid, Rolli, who ever stop whining please. Ticket to ride is a game to have fun !!!!

A week ago I did not even know that there might even be a Dutch team for NC this year ... As all know I have not played for more than a year - so the only active top player for Orange is Bassie.

Furthermore everyone knows that the Lelelines have a strong Dutch connection and that many of us dutchies have met this wonderful family many times. Same goes for Jac who is Bas's partner.

So the only reason all you wankers are whining is Anu. Damn right she is a good player. So is that the reason you want to put all your troops forward and make her not play? Put her to tears and not participate in the biggest event ttr has to offer ...

In my eyes you all are pathetic !!!!

Man up! Take the challenge!!! Are you afraid of a half crippled half active half down under team??? lol, stop worrying about your fears and start practising before !!!

Do you hear Kotay, toutoune, Elric ... ??? No they are confident about their team and want to have fun at this game !!! I always enjoyed my games with them ... they don't mind if they lose or win so long it is a good game!!!

Anu is part of our family! Finland can not make a team so much is clear. Nor can Switserland!. Patrick stated all points perfectly ... I do not understand how pathetick you can be to refute his points ...

Anu should play ... she cannot play for a finnish team because ther cannot be made one .. the only logical team that Anu can play for is the team of her Scandinacvian friends of Team Orange ... Erps, sebbo, Kid ... tell me with whom does Anu have a stronger bond than with us inactive cool sweet sportslike far away nice people ...





      
shamogi
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Re:NC 2007 - all information and rules Sat, 25 August 2007 02:09
hi,

i agree with youki ... stop whining and play on!

look at Homeland, USA2, ReThink, Red and White TGV, OLE, GTS, NCZ, Catalunya ...
... all strong teams with very good players ...

really, what's the problem?


shamo
Pirate
      
thadd
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T2R Nation Cup 2008 Winner

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December 2004
Re:NC 2007 - all information and rules Sat, 25 August 2007 03:22
I am sorry, I really didn't have the time to read all the posts. I already gave my statement. I knew when I talked to the team, that there would be trouble and I put my aspirin ready.

When it came to the discussion, I asked all the questions which seemed necessary to me, as why not just one dutch team, where are the swiss and finnish players. I got all the answers, and yes, I told Anu, that she can join this team, as long as there is no other finnish team (same for the dutch and swiss).

erps, if it's a problem for you to form 1 very good german team, just because of relations, then you get also on a personal level. You get together with the players you want to be, nobody says, that you can't take the 6 top german players (and there are enough in the top 20...). That's your decision. The americans and french do it that way, the tops and the rest.

Anyway, you can decide to kick me out as TD, this will avoid a lot of headache to me.

For now, I decided when I told them to go for it, so the decision stands.

thadd

[Updated on: Sat, 25 August 2007 04:58]

      
Leleline_J
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October 2005
Re:NC 2007 - all information and rules Sat, 25 August 2007 04:45
Thanks thadd.

I havent read all of that discussion. but seriously, guys get over it!!! this whole discussion is ridiculous... do you even know what you are saying ?? This is so pissing me off right now. I dont even know if I still want to play like that. It should be fun and not just causing fights and arguments.
I stopped playing for a long time, because I didn't like the game anymore. I started playing again about one month ago and thought it's actually not too bad. But right now, it's starting to annoy me again and I don't even know anymore if I still want to play.
This team is formed so we can participate in the great nationcup tournement and play some thrilling games against good players.
If you're scared of us, just f-ing play better.
me and goan problably won't play much, and maybe I won't play at all because i don't have much time and access to computer.
so there aren't that many of us left.


for all those people that still think its unfair and bla bla : GET A LIFE

[Updated on: Sat, 25 August 2007 06:16]

      
thekid
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Re:NC 2007 - all information and rules Sat, 25 August 2007 05:07
Hey Patterson, who cares what you think of us. Your one player is acting like a baby. "If I don't get my way I'm not gonna play." Wahhhhhhhh. Good go home. There is no defense of that behavior.

Hey Mr. Bean, Did you ask Peter? I'm guessing not. So what your leader - the one who likes to take all the credit for starting this NC is now using a personal reason not to take a fellow countryman, in favor of another person from another country who is far superior. Maybe he'll like to take the credit for it all falling apart.

Thadd and shamogi, you know I like you both, but take the names out of the equations and you know this looks bad.

      
kolmo
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Re:NC 2007 - all information and rules Sat, 25 August 2007 05:38
Would you please stop it ?

Not only do I get to read pages and pages of rules, and pages and pages of abstracts of rules, in english, in french and in german, now I have to tolerate all these nonsensical flames 3 days before deadline to change those rules ?

This is getting ridiculous.

***

Thadd's the TD ; she ruled ; her decisions are final ; case is closed.

The tournament's setting could have been more thoughtful. But it was not. We're all responsible of this mess, so let's live with it.

Those who wish to have Bassie's head should wait next year ;-)

Here are two simple provisos we could add then :

1. Transnational teams are transnational all the way - one player per contry max.

2. If we want more countries, let us play matches with 4 boards and 1 reserve, like FIDE's olympiads, and lear ot live with draws, or think about reducing it to 3 boards.

***

Now, let's get ready to rumble soon.

kolmo

PS : Bassie, I hope you'll behave like a superhuman by now.
      
Leleline_J
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Re:NC 2007 - all information and rules Sat, 25 August 2007 06:24
oi thekid

first of all
it wasnt patterson saying that, it was me.
so dont accuse people for saying something they didn't even say.

then
if u reckon I act like a baby, think first of what YOU are saying.
You don't want this team to happen. and why ??? because "it's against the rules and ohh im gonna be so scared when they would play they have the greatest ttr player in human history Anu_ in their team and they're not even supposed to have her oh my god what shall i do let's just start fighting"

You know what ?? We don't care either of what you think of us.
The TD decided.
accept it or go crying.

focus on your own team and figure something out so you can beat us.

this is just a waist of time and nerves.
we can keep argueing and beat each other up or we can play the games and have fun.
its up to you but I prefer the second one.
      
thekid
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Re:NC 2007 - all information and rules Sat, 25 August 2007 06:55
Hey thadd I take you up on your offer.

I'd rather be TD this year and not play than let idiotic manuevers like this happen.

So now I'm TD and the answer is no.

How ya like it now Lele?

The TD has now ruled.

[Updated on: Sat, 25 August 2007 07:03]

      
Leleline_J
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Re:NC 2007 - all information and rules Sat, 25 August 2007 07:05
lol u just make me laugh.

Im gonna declare myself now to the queen of switzerland.
and I dont care what other people think about it Smile
      
Anu_
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Re:NC 2007 - all information and rules Sat, 25 August 2007 09:54
From where to start....

First, I want all you to know that the reason why I wanted to step out from our team, was to avoid all this STUPID discussion. And, I didnt talk to any team member before I wrote my first posting. And why this? Just because I wanted them to have a great NC tournament without having all this fighting before NC even started.....

What ever you all say, it came pretty clear : if it was another finnish player who joined this team, there would not been this kind of fighting. So - what should I think of all this? Come on all of you, I am just ONE player here - if I happend to be on the top, so what - there have been a lot of others too, and we all know that Top100 players are about equal in strength, so what is the point?

Even I knew our team wasnt against the rules, I was ready to be only an observer of the tournament. And again WHY? Because for me more important are people than this game. All these wonderful persons I have got to known (and there are A LOT MORE than people in our team) are a big reason that I am still playing this game. In fact, I know better players from other teams, than some players in our team. And sorry, but I think its not any from our team who is acting like a baby.


Shortly, like it has been said now many times. There was no more FINg-ShUI, there was not enough dutch players, so simply combining these 3. AND IT HAD NOTHING TO DO WITH ANYONES RANKING. Just seeing who are left from last years FINg-ShUI and from the dutch team.

Most of you are having about the same players in a team every year, some changes of course. Well - for us small countries that just is not possible. Is it a crime that also we want to participate this tournament? If so, why dont you just make your own "Only For Big Countries" elitist tournament and let NC be like it has been from the beginning, with transnational teams.

I just think that this has to stop, every year having problems when there shows up a transnational team. And who are starting these discussions? You, who have more than enough players to form teams. So punish those who are from smaller countries and are not able to make team of their own, and for sure FIGHT when it looks this team is competitive.

And if the rules for transnational teams are not clear enough, then change them for the next year, but dont start to change them now when you have seen who are in one team.

If there are 3-4 Top20 players in a team which all are from the same country, why this is a problem when it is a transnational team? And which happens not to be against the rules, if some of you still didnt notice that. If there was a rule which was against us, of course we would had accepted that but you know, there wasnt.

I hope this discussion stops and you all would concentrate to your own team and having a nice tournament instead of this stupidness.

Bye,

Anu

PS. Because it didnt go the way I hoped (to avoid this fight) and because of the mails I got from my team members, and for sure because of all those postings which made me sad and mad, I need to take back my words - I will be part of our team till its said " you are not allowed to play, your team is against the rules"
      
SMP-bassie
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January 2005
Re:NC 2007 - all information and rules Sat, 25 August 2007 10:01
Anu_ announced

I will be part of our team till its said " you are not allowed to play, your team is against the rules"

Yoohoo! That's the real fighting spirit I wanted to see...

Go Anu, go Anu...
      
Jac_
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Re:NC 2007 - all information and rules Sat, 25 August 2007 10:09
Laughing Laughing Laughing that is my SIS way to go Rolling Eyes Rolling Eyes Rolling Eyes

welcome "back" lets go kick a**nnanasssss

Twisted Evil Twisted Evil Twisted Evil Twisted Evil
      
Rolli
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Re:NC 2007 - all information and rules Sat, 25 August 2007 10:19
youki schrieb am Sat, 25 August 2007 01:14

But really guys, you are taking yourselves far too seriously here!!! Erps, Sebbo, Kid, Rolli, who ever stop whining please. Ticket to ride is a game to have fun !!!!



Really sorry, but there must ber a mistake. When did I say anything bad about your team? I wrote one comment here, and if you didn't read it well, it's not my fault... actually I supportet you... but if you think I was one of the whining guys... What did I say but the game was for fun and Anu should be allowed to play every time. Actually I wrote PMs to Anu too, to conform and confident her... and now you say this... pfff...

And I agree with Anu. *signAnu'spost*

Best wishes, Yours,

Rolli

[Updated on: Sat, 25 August 2007 10:27]

      
SOJA Patterson
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T2R 2010 World Champion

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Re:NC 2007 - all information and rules Sat, 25 August 2007 10:23
Hi all,

These are the final words I am going to spend on this issue.
Yesterday I clearly described why and how our team was formed.
Based on that and the rules thadd as TD decided we were allowed to participate. For me this ends the discussion.

CU all in NC2007,
Patterson


      
Nemo_
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Re:NC 2007 - all information and rules Sat, 25 August 2007 10:23

[Updated on: Sat, 25 August 2007 10:46]

      
Leleline_M
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Re:NC 2007 - all information and rules Sat, 25 August 2007 10:27
hi all,

Great anu and welcome back Smile. Let's try to forget all that now and have fun together.

I know from people that didn't agree with our team, but also from people that found the team ok, that they are feeling sorry about that this got such a big and heavy discussion.

So let's try to stop it now, knowing we got so many friends here and we know so many nice people from this game, what is much more worth than continuing a discussion that "escalated" a bit, and gives many of us a negative feeling.

I'm looking forward to the coming NC, and hey my friends, I like you all very much Smile.

Marie
      
SMP-bassie
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January 2005
Re:NC 2007 - all information and rules Sat, 25 August 2007 10:50
thekid stated

I'd rather be TD this year and not play than let idiotic manuevers like this happen.

thekid, if it was all so idiotic, why did you not try to change the rules before there was an outcome that didn't suit your purpose?

One thing I have to say is that erps at least tried to do that before. But also his rules (4d and 4e) don't work. Like Mr Bean said, if only 5 Dutch players would be allowed on the transnational team, then Goan and Joli could have been taken off the list since they are not expected to play more than 2 matches each anyway. In that case they would have been mascottes outside the team and Patterson could have added Anu, Jac and Marie without a problem and our team wouldn't have lost strength (don't take offense Goan and Joli Laughing ). By the way, in this stage this is not an option anymore for me, it has become all or nothing.

DrakeStorm tells

You make it sound like sending random PMs to someone from your country is absurd. That's how I got on the team. I didn't know anyone, and just got a random PM from SKM asking me if I wanted to join the team.

In the case you were below 1400 back then, you had never played against or met anyone of your to be teammates, then I must say hats off for SKM. Not many people would do such a thing.

erps assumes

let's say, thekid is no longer welcome in ANY american team and so he is searching for another team and GTS or our team is offering him shelter. It's the same decision as last year with Peter, i see no reason why the TD should decide against him.

That is a typical situation that calls for an exception made by the TD, yes. Of course she should contact all captains of the American teams first, but if they all refuse thekid, I would be happy if any team could give him shelter. Why not?

erps loses it

And the last point, what some of you will never understand: The big nations have clearly a disadvantage in forming many teams. It is impossible to form the best possible team (a number one team) because connections between players, problems or the quicker questioning leads to the situation that most german teams (e.g.) are equally strong and the players are distributed from top 5 to top 50. No way to get the 5 best players of germany together. The other big nations have similar problems, at least the captain of the second or third team is mostly a player strong enough to play in Team A. Your small team has all the best dutch players and then it has the possibility to recruit players better than your best. The current rules make the big nations weaker and the tiny nations stronger and not vice versa.

True. I will not understand. Does it occur to you that we would have prevented a transnational team had we been able to do so? And how do you, who has never looked for players rated under 1600, dare to expect from us to look for players rated under 1400 whom we don't know nor played against? Why should it be vice versa, getting the strong nations even stronger? On top of that, I wouldn't mind to have your trouble, wondering whom to choose out of 100+ known players...

stephan1972 hits the hammer on the head

In an ideal world, there would be one team for each nation/country. However, this is not football, with many good players from many countries. There is only a small pool of players for each country to choose from.

Here we are. Had this been another sport, NC would have been played with 6 teams: Spain, USA, Germany, Austria, Canada and France. That's what you get if you make rules simple.

thekid sniggers

Hey Mr. Bean, Did you ask Peter? I'm guessing not. So what your leader - the one who likes to take all the credit for starting this NC is now using a personal reason not to take a fellow countryman, in favor of another person from another country who is far superior.

DrakeStorm adds

I don't think the NC should be about forming a team with friends.

His leader - at least, my guess was that you mention his team captain - did not start NC. Besides, do you think any of the NC captains - or for that matter, team captains in any sport - would select someone who is bound to do the team more bad than good? Do you think in any sport there is a rule to select those players for your team? Please wake up.

And yes, I want to put an end to the discussion too, but I simply think some things needed an answer.
      
erps
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Re:NC 2007 - all information and rules Sat, 25 August 2007 11:16
Hi

Not everything that is allowed by the rules, should be done. Rules are like laws, they will be changed and most important, a rule/law can not cover anything. I looked it up. By the rules of 2006, it was possible for one player to play a whole team with 5 player accounts. Not forbidden by the rule but definitly against the spirit of the NC. Here goes the same. Ah, and thadd said it before, only 5% of all players are reading the rules. Sometimes you will experience there is a problem the moment it will arise.

There is another finish player (Zimo) in the TN-Team, why not adding him/her?

You, bassie, started with the personal reasons. The spain are not allowed to join forces with another nation, because they are friends Wink lol. There is no reasoning for your sight.

You have to ask, if this all is it worth, if there is a big group of players/teams not happy with such a decision (definitly no small minority).

And i will not stand back. I talked for a year changing the rules and making a rule board with the old captains. It was not even possible to form a mailing list and this was proposed 2 or 3 times! Don't come with the rules are out for months thing, there was not really the intention to discuss them.

And for all that do no understand the concept:
Let's say we have 4 players from Country A and 4 players from Country B and we have 8 players from Country C. Always the best. If A and B join forces they can mix their ranks and so the rule is better for them. I did not say, that this makes the TN-teams better than the big nations teams and it may not occur all the time, but the rule is not improving in any way the situation of national teams, but the situation of TN-teams. So it is a rule in favor of them.

And again, it has nothing to do with Anu. She said yesterday that she resigns and if it was a problem with her, there should be no reason to discuss this anymore. I still think we open Pandora's box if we allow completed teams to add TN-players. And yes, if you reduce the number of dutch players to 5, it is allowed to form the TN-team even with my rules. And don't say it is not weakening your team to remove Lele_J from the list, she is also an ex-number 1 and a top 10 player.

bye, erps

      
streetcar-Endstation
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Re:NC 2007 - all information and rules Sat, 25 August 2007 11:58
No Message Body

[Updated on: Sat, 25 August 2007 13:14]

      
ATN Drake
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Re:NC 2007 - all information and rules Sat, 25 August 2007 12:22
Not to beat this to the ground, but I have an honest question. Why is the tournament a "Nation's Cup"? Why isn't it just a team tournament? Or even "Germany vs. the World!" since almost half the teams are German. And I can't remember, but last year weren't most of the teams in the semi-finals German?

I guess I'm missing the point of the Nation's Cup.

Its already clear that most teams are just a group of people that are friends. As Erps mentions, the Germany teams are all divided about evenly. The 5 best aren't on a team. Why? Because they probably are grouped as friends or at least people they like to play with.

I think our American team is a little bit within the spirit, since I don't know anyone on my team any more than anyone else in the TTR community. I'm on the team to represent the USA.

I mean face it, it might be a team tournament but you never once have to talk to anyone on your team to participate. You get your match up, you contact your opponent, you play your opponent, you post results and repeat the next week. So having someone on your team that you don't know isn't a problem (assuming they don't cheat or forfiet a match they were supposed to play).

I think everyone agrees that this tournament should be fun, not a big headache, but what's fun and fair to one person isn't the same for another. It just reminds me of the newbies that put "fair" in the description of their games that think blocking is unfair. Some people think this transnational team is fair, others don't. No one is wrong, its just a matter of opinion.

Personally, I think the people that use the argument "so and so should be allowed on xyz team, its just a game, its just for fun..." are full of it. If you really are joining the tournament for fun, find 5 or 6 1100 rated players and make a team. Then I would believe you. All I see now is a team trying to be competitive, which is fine, but just admit it.

I actually think having strong teams is better for the tournament. We need some team(s) to keep the Germans in check!

I don't think it is too late to modify the rules, but I'll live by whatever is decided. I do think it is bad if there are a number of teams unhappy with the ruling as all it takes is a few teams to boycott the tournament to mess everything up.









      
Nayeli
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Re:NC 2007 - all information and rules Sat, 25 August 2007 12:29
Hi,

just a proposal for the NC 2008: Anu, I think there a few finnish players who would like to play the NC.

Zimo - sisu ( gof-player... still) Wuonex, Vesa ( yesterday we played 3 games and he won twice *grr* ) and of course Make.

Every player who wants to play has exactly 1 year time to form a team. I think, that should be possible.

Is this really still a Nations Cup? Sorry, I don't think so but I'm not the TD. So I have to accept her decision!

Like everybody else!!

So please let's have fun and stop the war.

Nay
      
thekid
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Re:NC 2007 - all information and rules Sat, 25 August 2007 15:33
bassie wrote on Wed, 15 August 2007 09:44

Q1. What about democracy? You promised a discussion group!
True, this isn't democratic. I did consider a board of players to decide together about the rules, but I feared endless discussions about not always meaningful details. I know better ways to spend my time. Besides, after the success of 2005 and 2006 I saw no need for changes, other than the number of games per match. By the way, if you convince me that something needs to be added or changed in the coming one and a half weeks, I will do so.

Q6. Why can we not freely choose whom to play with?
Then it would not be a Nations Cup.
More specifically, I don't want the situation that the best two players of Country A join forces with some other players whose country is not represented yet. So, in the specific case of MiguelMarques, he is free to start or join a team of people whose country is not represented. I do believe there are enough possibilities yet. In a case that a player of Country A is denied by the only team of Country A, the TD is free to make exceptions.





Look at all of the I's in that first paragraph. Why doesn't the "I" want it. Beacause "I" wouldn't get the team "I" wanted. Seems someone thinks he is bigger than the event.

And then in the second applies to "I" as well. He is barring a player so that, ooooh looky looky there's a much better player, from another country, "I" can have a better team.

This is a team event not "I's".

      
kolmo
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Re:NC 2007 - all information and rules Sat, 25 August 2007 16:00
Like we say in french : il n'y a pas de i dans équipe...

      
erps
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Re:NC 2007 - all information and rules Sat, 25 August 2007 16:06
bassie did the hypocrite last year on Wed, 24 May 2006 02:20


All: there is much ado about transnational teams. I would like it to be as simple as possible. So I propose that there will be no transnational teams. Exceptions:
- DoW
- Teams that consist of players whose country would not be represented otherwise.
I see no reason to make an exception for teenagers. I take them serious. Leleline_J played a game against me in which she thought about 1.43 seconds per move, crushing me in 9 turns. Afterwards she consoled me with my tickets (which weren't bad at all). Anyone would want her in the team. Ergo, if a minor is good enough, he/she will play (like nico and Scrat last year). If not, form your own (national) team or make sure you get better.

And we will manage to form a dutch team. Five players are more or less fixed, and Goan (captain) would probably gladly invite the Lelelines in our team. Other strong players will yet be invited. If worst comes to worst we'll play with lower-ranked players. No NC without Team Orange.


      
Nemo_
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Re:NC 2007 - all information and rules Sat, 25 August 2007 16:27
This is simple, lets change the name to TC, Team Cup.
      
thadd
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Re:NC 2007 - all information and rules Sat, 25 August 2007 16:51
I think the discussion is closed, so far not 1 captain (apart from sebbo - I don't know if he will be captain this year again - but he revised his opinion) did get back to me in order to protest.


BTW, I got confronted that I decided that way because of friendship etc, last year's decision with Peter joining Baron's team had nothing to do with friendship, it was a decision based on the belief that every paying member of this community has the right to participate.

[Updated on: Sat, 25 August 2007 17:26]

      
thekid
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Re:NC 2007 - all information and rules Sat, 25 August 2007 19:07
thadd wrote on Sat, 25 August 2007 10:51

I think the discussion is closed, so far not 1 captain (apart from sebbo - I don't know if he will be captain this year again - but he revised his opinion) did get back to me in order to protest.


BTW, I got confronted that I decided that way because of friendship etc, last year's decision with Peter joining Baron's team had nothing to do with friendship, it was a decision based on the belief that every paying member of this community has the right to participate.



Anu can participate on the other team but she doesn't want to. Too bad for her.

Have you asked for a vote? Oh wait thats not allowed per Master Bassie.

Lets review the details:

1. Bassie won't allow a voting board.

2. Bassie appoints TD.

3. Bassie circumvents rules by not allowing a player on his team opening up the spot for rule breaking.

4. TD tells them to go for it. Do you need pom-pom's for Team Orange Thadd?

5. Thadd offers to step down, I offer to step in. No step down. Digging in like your friend now Thadd? Bassie can't have you leave can he? Then he won't get his way.

Wake up people this isn't the Nations Cup or the team tournament.

It's Master Bassie's tournament.


      
thekid
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Re:NC 2007 - all information and rules Sat, 25 August 2007 19:12
erps wrote on Sat, 25 August 2007 10:06

bassie did the hypocrite last year on Wed, 24 May 2006 02:20


All: there is much ado about transnational teams. I would like it to be as simple as possible. So I propose that there will be no transnational teams. Exceptions:
- DoW
- Teams that consist of players whose country would not be represented otherwise.
I see no reason to make an exception for teenagers. I take them serious. Leleline_J played a game against me in which she thought about 1.43 seconds per move, crushing me in 9 turns. Afterwards she consoled me with my tickets (which weren't bad at all). Anyone would want her in the team. Ergo, if a minor is good enough, he/she will play (like nico and Scrat last year). If not, form your own (national) team or make sure you get better.

And we will manage to form a dutch team. Five players are more or less fixed, and Goan (captain) would probably gladly invite the Lelelines in our team. Other strong players will yet be invited. If worst comes to worst we'll play with lower-ranked players. No NC without Team Orange.





Watch out erps I'm falling in love with you all over again.

Cmon Bassie how you gonna pull that foot out of your mouth?
      
kolmo
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Re:NC 2007 - all information and rules Sat, 25 August 2007 19:30
Even if Thadd were stepping down, I doubt any other TD would have the power to overrule Thadd's call.

Ok, Bassie's acting like a jerk. But he's certainly not the only one around here.
      
thekid
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Re:NC 2007 - all information and rules Sat, 25 August 2007 19:35
kolmogorov wrote on Sat, 25 August 2007 13:30

Even if Thadd were stepping down, I doubt any other TD would have the power to overrule Thadd's call.

Ok, Bassie's acting like a jerk. But he's certainly not the only one around here.


I'm a jerk and I know it. I purposefully took on that persona long ago when only cheaters roamed the earth here. Go look at the forums prior to this. No fun, no juice, no rivalries, no nothing. Then it all changed. The cheats were gone and I was the one. There was hatred of the one and rivalries were born. Great fueds, great forum posts, great fun. I organized the first tournament and away it went and here we are now with many tournaments.

But I'm not cheating here and that jerk needs to be called on it.

You're not sure anyone could change it, then you're obviously not as smart as you think you are.

[Updated on: Sat, 25 August 2007 19:57]

      
thadd
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Re:NC 2007 - all information and rules Sat, 25 August 2007 20:09
Don't put me inbetween your confrontation with bassie. I didn't decide the way, because of bassie or others, I decided the same way I did last year with Peter.
I am not bassie's pudel as I am not yours kid nor erps' or someone else's.

And, btw, I would like to hear from the captains, before I step down, not only people screaming at me, who aren't even yet registered players of a team.


      
kolmo
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Re:NC 2007 - all information and rules Sat, 25 August 2007 20:40
Bigkid,

I don't see anybody cheating here.

If you can't understand that you don't call for mutiny by acting like an irresponsible jerk, or that Bassie now has to live with his idea, you certainly lack social skills. As if you did not already gave us proof of that before.

Have fun playing with your persona,

kolmo

[Updated on: Sat, 25 August 2007 20:42]

      
thekid
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Re:NC 2007 - all information and rules Sat, 25 August 2007 20:49
kolmogorov wrote on Sat, 25 August 2007 14:40



I don't see anybody cheating here.




You must need some glasses.

Lets not allow a player from that country because of personal reasons, and then let a much better player from another country, who should play on the international team but doesn't want to because of personal reasons.

What do you want to call it? Bending the rules that he made up and won't allow for a board of people to change it to help himself. Fine you call it that. I call it cheating.

You guys should have called it the personal reasons team.
      
erps
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Re:NC 2007 - all information and rules Sun, 26 August 2007 01:40
Hi

My last points:

1. There is a big difference between the Peter case last year and this years case: Last year, Peter was not accepted in his (only) home team and he had to search for another team. The 3rd incomplete american team (together with pepetever it was a real TN team) offered him a place. This year, there is a nice TN team forming and all the players without team should report to this team, there is even a chance to form 2 TN teams this way. But it was not even tried to post in the appropriate thread.

2. Answering to posts the poster admits he never has read is a nice way to discuss. I can't take such answers seriously.

3. I will not call it cheating, but it is unsportsmanlike behaviour.

4. There were complaints last year regarding the Finland/Swiss team (you can all read the thread), but they were shouten down because of all the nice players in this team. Last year this team was one of the strongest and reached quarterfinal. They losed because the bot spilled it, otherwise they would have played our team in the semis. You never know what happens then. This year they have gotten rid of all the low ranked players and join forces with the strongest dutch team ever! It's absurd to speak of the "only available" dutch players. You have bassie (ex-number 1), youki (ex-number 4 or 5, absolute top 20 material), patterson (US specialist and top 10 for a long time), Mr. bean (Ex-US number 1, top 20 most of the time US and overall), Goan (1650 to 1700 player, even better in tournaments), Annabel (stong in SPWC, fast learner, is going for 1700 fast). There are no other dutch players so high. But it should be no problem to find 2 substitutes in the lower regions for the weeks without bassie or other players. Every other team has the same problems. The austrians have 6 players registered so far, i bet there will be one ill or away or playing bridge. So find you one or two other players. I know that Lele_J is allowed to play for the dutch. She is an ex-number 1 and so is Anu. This is the strongest team in the whole Nations Cup. There is no way that a sensible TD would allow such a TN team. Face it: It's called NATIONs CUP, any nation not strong enough to build a proper team should NOT win this event.

5. I have enough of the rules can't be changed crap. There was no will to do so for a year and i proposed it a few times. And i have to add that i never said that i have to be member of the rule board. Most players don't know the rules, hey, most captains don't know the rules. And the rules have loopholes, flaws and all the other problems.

As i see a high probability that this team may win the NC 07 (there is no sureness because of the high luck effect, but they are in the best 4 team call for me) and i am not willing to congratulate such an unnecessary TN-Team for a victory and it is too late not doing this after the start of the NC, i am not participating. I was unsure anyway and i don't like this ruin of the NC, so there is now a free spot for another german player. On the other hand it is possible that the remains of our team will find shelter in other teams (hopefully in Homeland, Red TGV, Austria or Spain and don't you dare to not allow this!).

Unfortunately it means that you need another method of distributing the teams to the groups, another player to record the games and so on. I am no longer interested in the whole NC concept.

I wish good look to all national and the real tn teams.

bye, erps
      
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