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60WATZ
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Hindsight is 20/20 Thu, 23 August 2007 23:07
What is the most obvious expansion for the Memoir 44' player who has none of them.

My gut instinct, is that for the casual player who doesn't like to sandbox scenarios, the Eastern Front is the most obvious choice.

I loved reading the Terrain pack Instructions, but when I looked for more official scenarios that utilized all the special event chits, I noticed that they were few and far between.

The objectives seemed really fun, but why the lack of maps utilizing them?

Also, is the aesthetic gain of having the winter map really worth purchasing it along with the Eastern Front?

DOW did some slick marketing the way they sold the board and utilized two expansions with the Board.

So...

The stage is set, the battle lines are drawn, and you are in command. How would you rewrite history?
      
rasmussen81
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Re:Hindsight is 20/20 Thu, 23 August 2007 23:25
Good question. I'm a new player too and got lucky because my sister got me all of the expansions along with the main game. To answer your question though...you should probably think about which front is most interesting to you. If you really like the Russian front, that would be a great one to buy. The Terrain Pack is great for more Western Europe battles and North African stuff. The Pacific Pack is fun for any battles in Asia and that front.

I've found that I use the Terrain Pack the most so far. It comes with tons of new terrain that can be used almost every time. The roads add realism and a new mobility aspect. Mountains can be used for lots of the Italian battles and to create unpassable terrain. This pack adds airfields, factories, radar stations, dams, railroad stations, and other things that were targets for Commando raids.

You might be right that there are fewer scenarios that use the cool tiles in this set, but I've had a great time reading up on WWII and creating my own that need the Terrain Pack. You can probably tell which expansion I would get.
      
ColtsFan76
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Re:Hindsight is 20/20 Thu, 23 August 2007 23:56
There are tons of threads out there about this. I think this was the latest go around:

http://www.daysofwonder.com/en/msg/?goto=69463#msg_69463

I would agree with rasmussen that it really boils down to which front you think you are going to like best.

The Terrain Pack is tons of cool additions - but it is the start of a creating your own scenarios. They give you the tools and the rules and not much else. If you are looking for ready made scenarios to play, don't get this expansion. If you do want to toy around with your own scenarios or play one of the thousands of others created by fans, then it is a worthy investment.

Eastern Front's big unique thing is the introduction of the Russians. A whole new army to play with. The main concept changes are the Commissar rules. I personally like them the least of all the nation-specific rules but it does make for a challenging play. Snipers are added as well but that is in the other expansions as well.

Pacific Theater is probably the most fun in my opinnion. A whole new army plus I enjoy the new USMC and IJA rules. These games are real meat grinders.

The winter desert board is your call. I really like the look of playing on the winter boards when I play Eastern front. It makes me feel cold! The desert side si fun as well but there aren't that many desert scenarios . This side fails a bit as well since a lot of the terrain used - like hills and roads still have the green background. So the visual aspect is a bit hit and miss. But the Winter side is nearly perfect.
      
silentshadow
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Re:Hindsight is 20/20 Fri, 24 August 2007 06:49
I have found the Pacific Theater to be the most entertaining, also. But I'm partial to the Pacific because the Museum of the War of the Pacific (Fredericksburg, Texas) is practically in my backyard, give or take a few hundred miles. "Meat grinders" is an understatement. Smile
      
ISOisNo1
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Re:Hindsight is 20/20 Fri, 24 August 2007 11:51
In my opinion the Eastern Front expansion is definitely the first one to get.
You sort of have to get the winter board too, cant be playing with white tiles on the original grass board!

As someone said, the Terrain expansion is mostly for creating your own scenarios. I was excited about it at first but then I realised there are very few official scenarios for it. Its nice to have for the complete collection but not as a first expansion in my opinion.

I know a lot of people like the Pacific expansion but somehow it hasnt impressed me. Even with the extra Japanese infantry rules I find the battles lack variety. The Memoir system shines more in my view in the EF expansion where you have a better mixture of tanks, infantry and artillery.
      
GreatDane
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Re:Hindsight is 20/20 Fri, 24 August 2007 14:12
I like the Terrain Pack the most. Partly because I am a sucker for Africa scenarios, but also because the new green tilesm which I must admit being the ones I have used the most.

But I don't really think any of the expansions are necessary if the players don't want to make their own scenarios.

It is possible to adapt most scenarios to be used with the basic game.
      
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Re:Hindsight is 20/20 Fri, 24 August 2007 17:57
I like the East Front the best. It is a theater that gets to little attention in the US. Most US kids grow up thinking we won WWII by ourselves and the new rules and scenarios are awesome.

Pacific is a close second.

Terrain Pack is a distant third.
      
rasmussen81
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Re:Hindsight is 20/20 Mon, 27 August 2007 00:24
Sniper, you wouldn't be a history teacher, whould you? My wife and I are both teachers and are constantly trying to fill the gaps in world knowledge that our students have. Now that I know more about Barbarossa and the Eastern Front from my own reading and research, I can make sure at least a hand full of kids know something about it.

Every little bit counts!
      
Randwulf
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Re:Hindsight is 20/20 Mon, 27 August 2007 05:27
History!!!

Numbers speak... Look up the numbers of people on the eastern front and how many died. Look at the number of people on the western front and D-day and how many died.

Makes you wonder if we where even needed??? But with out the western front drain on the Germans, they could have won.

Think of the time lines of weapons development and what they had. The Russians cranked out tanks by the thousands. But the Germans always had something better or smarter. Without us bombing them for three years and diverting needed materials to combat us also. It would have taken the Russians an extra two years to beat them if they could have at all.

I firmly believe the madness of Hitler did more to win the war for us that anything else. If he had not diverted and interfered in so much, the Germans would have had stuff we could not have touched. And if he had waited to start the war by as much as 1 year??? or two??? What would we have faced when he did start???

scary to think about...
      
rasmussen81
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Re:Hindsight is 20/20 Mon, 27 August 2007 06:30
Yep, we might all be learning very different history if Hitler had let his generals do their thing. I read a book called "Warfare and the Third Reich" and it talked about how pretty much every aspect of the war had to go through Hitler and if he didn't like the idea there was no way around it (for the most part). It's no wonder the soldiers at the front were affected!

Something that the Dragonlance books always says though, is that evil turns in on itself and I think most people would have to admit there was some evil in Hitler.
      
Roobarb
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Re:Hindsight is 20/20 Mon, 27 August 2007 07:04
you yanks where very much needed britan whould never lasted as long as she did with out the atlantic life line imho this was in the top 10 most valeubel things you guys did for us in ww2 as for barberosser? this has to be hitlers bigst mistake remeber the soviet union and germany where alies and the SU were going to be surpling germany with gas ...
      
Roobarb
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Re:Hindsight is 20/20 Mon, 27 August 2007 07:33
i had been wathing the world at war on tv and ill tell ya them russians are scary MFS . the size of the feacherles tundra was very depressing for the germans crossing such great distances without much to do and piss poor resistance from the SU then the whinter came and as the oil froze in there tanks and with in spiting distance of mossco . out of no where the siberian reserve hit crack troops suppoted by tanks and nuters on hoseback with sabers imagen it those nutters comeing out of the snow with nothing but a zillion miles of churned up roads suronded by tundra and burnt out villages to reatreat throu and not much chance of been taken prisoner ...if only hitler had read his history ie the napolonic wars . forget history and youer doomed to reapet ths same mistakes over and over
      
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Re:Hindsight is 20/20 Mon, 27 August 2007 11:49
He probably would have got away with Barbarossa if not for the two final big screw-ups:
- wasting 2 mths of the summer racing down south to the Caucasus to capture more oil, thus wasting the precious summer weeks ... he probably would have made it to Moscow otherwise.
- sacrificing the 6th Army in Stalingrad.

But the major contribution to Germany's loss was their Ally Japan attacking the US - which then meant Hitler's pride made him declare war on the US (saving Roosevelt the trouble of convincing his country to fight two wars).

Without the US troops and extra mobilization of heavy weapons/armour/aircraft across the Atlantic that came with it, there is no way the Brits and Commonwealth allies would have got a foothold in any part of Europe (Britain would have been concentrating on defence) and Germany would have had millions of extra troops (and all the resources) to take on Russia - with probably the worst case scenario being an armistice line east of Poland .... thus producing a Third Reich consisting of most of Europe.

How the world can change on a just a few decisions ....


Being from the South Pacific I have no problem at all saying thankyou to all the US troops that were killed or injured keeping our small countries safe.
      
Roobarb
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Re:Hindsight is 20/20 Mon, 27 August 2007 12:11
ANZAC_Trooper wrote on Mon, 27 August 2007 10:49


Being from the South Pacific I have no problem at all saying thankyou to all the US troops that were killed or injured keeping our small countries safe.


totaly id also like to thank the us and for that mater alied troops for my very egsistance.
      
ANZAC_Trooper
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Re:Hindsight is 20/20 Mon, 27 August 2007 12:48
OK you guys - where's the 'Translate' button you click so we are able to read Roobarb's posts Laughing ?
      
Randwulf
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Re:Hindsight is 20/20 Mon, 27 August 2007 13:17
What??? You don't understand dyslexic cockney???? Very Happy

He is a little hard to read at times, but he is an ok guy.

Just think of it as an Enigma code translation exercise... Shocked

      
Roobarb
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Re:Hindsight is 20/20 Mon, 27 August 2007 13:30
Laughing sorry guys bear with me some times i have moments clarity Laughing and if i ever find the git who named my codition im gonna give him a right kicking imagen the troble i have spelling that word

[Updated on: Mon, 27 August 2007 13:40]

      
neil1967
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Re:Hindsight is 20/20 Mon, 27 August 2007 13:37
Quote:

He probably would have got away with Barbarossa if not for the two final big screw-ups:
- wasting 2 mths of the summer racing down south to the Caucasus to capture more oil, thus wasting the precious summer weeks ... he probably would have made it to Moscow otherwise.
- sacrificing the 6th Army in Stalingrad.

But the major contribution to Germany's loss was their Ally Japan attacking the US - which then meant Hitler's pride made him declare war on the US (saving Roosevelt the trouble of convincing his country to fight two wars).

Without the US troops and extra mobilization of heavy weapons/armour/aircraft across the Atlantic that came with it, there is no way the Brits and Commonwealth allies would have got a foothold in any part of Europe (Britain would have been concentrating on defence) and Germany would have had millions of extra troops (and all the resources) to take on Russia - with probably the worst case scenario being an armistice line east of Poland .... thus producing a Third Reich consisting of most of Europe.

How the world can change on a just a few decisions ....



Hmmm, not sure where you get this view of history from, but the idea of racing down to the caucasus stopping Hitler getting to Moscow is a bit strange, is this meant to be in 1941 (when he never got near the caucasus) or 1942 (when he never went for Moscow)?

As for sacrificing the 6th army, he didn't "sacrifice" it, once it was cut off it was lost as a military force. The Russians did that, not Hitler.

US arms were decisive in the west, but the UK was getting them long before Pearl Harbour. And I don't know of any US troops being present at El Alemain, when the tide turned in the west. In the desert and in the air Britain was on the offensive before the US entered the war (though the desert fighting swung back and forth until Alemain).

I'm not playing down the US contribution, but I don't think it should be exagerated either. They bore the main burden of the war in the west after 1943, and they were decisive in the Pacific. But after Stalingrad and Kursk the Germans couldn't win the war, and the Russians won those battles on their own. Post war politics shouldn't detract from the respect we owe them for that. It is rather sad that people are ready to accept German soldiers as "heroes", despite the system they fought for, but won't extend the same courtesy to their Russian opponents, who were fighting on our side.
      
ISOisNo1
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Re:Hindsight is 20/20 Mon, 27 August 2007 13:52
The desert war was a complete sideshow for Germany so I would hardly say it turned any tide on the West front.
England was putting much more of its resources into Africa than Germany and should have turned that front around much sooner.
When Montgomery got his chance on the real European front he proved he was a lousy general.
      
Roobarb
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Re:Hindsight is 20/20 Mon, 27 August 2007 13:52
america did ship food to the uk before pearl harbor and with out this help wed have been toast and as for germans being heros i think you miss understand they rerote the rules and baseicly invented modern warfair and i think what anzac trooper ment was the attack on kiev

[Updated on: Mon, 27 August 2007 15:48]

      
Randwulf
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Re:Hindsight is 20/20 Mon, 27 August 2007 15:55
Hey Neal... good to hear from you again...

"As for sacrificing the 6th army, he didn't "sacrifice" it, once it was cut off it was lost as a military force. The Russians did that, not Hitler."


Hitler had plenty of time to pull the 6th out. He did not do so.
sounds like a sacrifice to me...

A year and a half earlier...

Guderian was chomping at the bit to get to Moscow. He was stopped by Hitler. Had Guderian been sent to take Moscow and Moscow had fallen. Russia would have had to pull back even further and may have even forced to "sued for peace" Not that it would have ended the war, Russia would have struck back just as soon as they could.

If Kiev to the south had been held off, if... big word that, things would have been a lot different.

While Kiev was a great victory in terms of men captured and Divisions destroyed, strategecly it was a failure because it allowed the Russians 4 weeks to reinforce Moscow.



      
neil1967
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Re:Hindsight is 20/20 Mon, 27 August 2007 15:59
Quote:

america did ship food to the uk before pearl harbor and with out this help wed have been toast and as for germans being heros i think you miss understand they rerote the rules and baseicly invented modern warfair and i thik what anzac trooper ment was the attack on kiev


I accept that the USA sent us food and arms before pearl harbour, and that it was critical to our survival. Incidently, the British government is still making repayments for it..

But back to Russia.

The Germans had the advantage of basically writing the history of the eastern front (and even that term shows how our view is the German one, we aren't calling it "the great patriotic war" much, are we?). German sources were most easily available to western historians during the cold war. Our history comes from the excuses of German generals to cover up their failures and put the blame on a dead leader. And maybe to make us think that they were indispensable to the defence of the west against our new enemies?

There are, particularly since the fall of communism, several good books showing the view from the other side of the hill.

A lot of wargamers do seem to like the idea of being the Germans, especially when fighting Russians. And a lot of them seem to like being the SS even more. There was a set of "eastern front" wargame scenarios published a few years ago, dedicated to the "heroes" of the Totenkopf division (formed from concentration camp guards no less). I personally find that a bit distasteful. Not all game publishers are like that, but there is definately a market for those who are.

And finally, don't worry about your posts (hopefully you don't anyway). Your meaning comes across, and that's what matters. Smile

      
neil1967
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Re:Hindsight is 20/20 Mon, 27 August 2007 16:22
Quote:

"As for sacrificing the 6th army, he didn't "sacrifice" it, once it was cut off it was lost as a military force. The Russians did that, not Hitler."

Hitler had plenty of time to pull the 6th out. He did not do so.
sounds like a sacrifice to me...



I don't know that he could have got them out in any fighting shape, you're talking about disengaging from an enemy in close contact on one side, fighting your way through an enemy on the other side, and doing it all in thick snow and sub-zero temperatures with an army already in poor condition. How many artillery pieces would they have saved? How many tanks and vehicles?

I'd say a fair proportion of the men might have got out, if the Germans were lucky. So Hitler might have saved 80,000 or so soldiers (half of them frostbitten), but the 6th army would be lost for any practical purpose until the spring or summer of 1943, when it could be reformed.

But the Russians were also attacking to cut off the Germans in the caucasus (an army group, not just an army), and if the 6th army had cut and run then all those Russians who had to spend months destroying it would be freed to help in that task. So a breakout by the 6th army might have seen the Russians in Berlin sometime in 1944... Or maybe not, we'll never know. But it's fun to speculate.

I think the real problem for the Germans in Russia (apart from the Russian army and the weather) was probably logistics, Russia is just so damn big. The german blitzkrieg victories were mostly short range affairs, and getting supplies to the head of the attack wasn't such a big problem as it would be in Russia. But logistics tend to be ignored by wargamers.
      
Roobarb
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Re:Hindsight is 20/20 Mon, 27 August 2007 16:23
actuly we finaly finished paying that debet this year but thats politcs for ya and no i dont worry about my posts which dosent mean im not trying to spell propaly Rolling Eyes
      
Roobarb
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Re:Hindsight is 20/20 Mon, 27 August 2007 16:56
A lot of wargamers do seem to like the idea of being the Germans, especially when fighting Russians. And a lot of them seem to like being the SS even more. There was a set of "eastern front" wargame scenarios published a few years ago, dedicated to the "heroes" of the Totenkopf division (formed from concentration camp guards no less). I personally find that a bit distasteful. Not all game publishers are like that, but there is definately a market for those who are.
[/quote]

i think this is more to do the look of the german armour and stuff as for the heroes of totenkopf division i dont think many pepole would dissagrey with you as some one who lost 15 members of my family in concentration camps i find this very distastful

[Updated on: Mon, 27 August 2007 17:03]

      
ANZAC_Trooper
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Re:Hindsight is 20/20 Mon, 27 August 2007 17:10
Neil - I think you have got us all down as fascists or something daring to say the German army wasn't too bad a fighting force, which I'm pretty sure no one here is ... or do you think we are beating down on Russia because we are all commie haters, once again I'm sure no one falls into this category.

I won't spend to much time propping up my opinions as a few others have popped a couple of posts in, but I do think your WW2 history is a bit rusty compared to some of the others on this board ... but nothing for any of us to get upset over, it is just intersting discussion.

A few couple of lines:

- as noted by Randwulf, Hitler (and possibly some of his staff) halted the drive at Moscow to try and get south - this wasted valuable summer weeks which then caused the Germans to get stuck in terrible autumn mud and then the winter, and being halted just short of Moscow by the condition of the terrain.

- Pauling had an opportunity (or two) to get out of Stalingrad but was refused by Hitler. This resulted in the loss of a few hundred thousand troops (casualties and prisoners) and the ability of a controlled withdrawal to join a strengthened defensive position.

- the desert was a sideshow, I'm a Kiwi and our troops mainly fought in Africa, Greece, and Italy but two of them were sideshows and ones was just a diversion.

- no matter how much the Brits kid themselves (I've lived here for 7 years now and it's not the first time I've heard this line of thought from good patriots here) there is no way they and their Commonwealth allies were going to successfully breach any part of Germany-controlled Europe.

- yes the non-US allies were bombing German targets but the US airforce, their massive daylight raids, their long range escort fighters, and the norden bombsight caused probably the same or more damage to Germany than the Brit night bombing of cities.

- I still think that a plausible outcome of the war if Roosevelt was unable to join in against Germany would have been Britain stuck on her island a little nervous about invasion, Germany well dug in defensively on the western and southern European coasts, and after those defensive positions were filled a million or two German troops free to assist on the Eastern front where Hitler and Stalin after a couple of years of stalemate may simply have drawn a line east-ish of Poland and got back to what they did best - strengthening their internal empires from dissent.

- Britain finished paying off it's war loan last year Smile
      
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  Re:Hindsight is 20/20 Mon, 27 August 2007 20:05
My favorite is Pacific. I love learning about the battles of WWII, especially those in the Pacific. I have designed two Iwo Jima scenarios (3144U and 3172U) because I thought all of the other Iwo Jima scenarios in SFTF had the placement of Mt Suribachi all wrong. I like my scenarios to be as realistic as possible. I felt that because the game does not have mortars, I used armor in bunkers to represent them. The Japanese had every inch of the beach covered with mortar and artillery fire, so I tried to do the same.

This game has gotten me to appreciate what our boys did "over there". Since I started playing this game, I have bought WWII movies, documentaries, and searched the internet for more information on WWII battles. I am very proud of what all allied troops did, American, Canadian, British, Australian, and any others that I am forgetting. It would be a very different world right now if they had not sacrificed what they did. Some sacrificed their very lives.

In memoir 44, I do sometimes enjoy Germans in some scenarios, but that does not make me a nazi. And I do enjoy playing the German side in eastern front scenarios, but not because I hate all Russians. Just because someone enjoys playing the Germans or the Russians, or the Japanese for that matter, that doesn't make them bad people. Or have I misunderstood what you were talking about?
      
Roobarb
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Re:Hindsight is 20/20 Mon, 27 August 2007 20:24
not to put words in neils mouth but i dont think hes makeing sweeping genralisations i think what he maybe saying is some gamers and companys forget that there games are based on actual events and with in liveing memory or at least thats what i got from his post
      
neil1967
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Re:Hindsight is 20/20 Mon, 27 August 2007 21:08
Quote:

not to put words in neils mouth but i dont think hes makeing sweeping genralisations i think what he maybe saying is some gamers and companys forget that there games are based on actual events and with in liveing memory or at least thats what i got from his post


That's pretty much it, I'm not accusing all gamers of being pro nazi or anything like that. I'd hope that the level of intelligence needed to play a wargame should put most of us above that.
      
ANZAC_Trooper
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Re:Hindsight is 20/20 Mon, 27 August 2007 21:22
I doubt any gamers who play WW2 wargames (i.e wargamers) and end up playing the German army are closet Nazis - my post was to point out how off-base that idea was to start with.



      
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Re:Hindsight is 20/20 Mon, 27 August 2007 21:25
The level of intelligence means nothing.
It is quite possible to be highly intelligent and a weirdo at the same time.
      
neil1967
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Re:Hindsight is 20/20 Mon, 27 August 2007 21:52
Quote:

Neil - I think you have got us all down as fascists or something daring to say the German army wasn't too bad a fighting force, which I'm pretty sure no one here is ... or do you think we are beating down on Russia because we are all commie haters, once again I'm sure no one falls into this category.

I won't spend to much time propping up my opinions as a few others have popped a couple of posts in, but I do think your WW2 history is a bit rusty compared to some of the others on this board ... but nothing for any of us to get upset over, it is just intersting discussion.



I don't think you're a fascist, or that anyone else here is for that matter. Sorry if I gave that impression. I'm not sure why you think my WWII history is rusty, but you're entitled to your opinion.

I do think that attitudes to the eastern front are highly influenced by accounts written before the fall of communism, and these rely on information either from german records or interviews with german participants.

For example, information regarding the possible breakout of the 6th army comes from where? Well, the most readily available first hand account would be from Von Manstein, the guy who failed to breakthrough to the pocket, lets just say it's in his interest to suggest he got close enough for Paulus to have linked up with him. 30 or 40 kilometers away in a blizzard is a bit far for an undernourished army with little or no fuel and no horses to march IMO, and what would they have found if they reached Von Mansteins position? Nothing, just a longer retreat ahead of them, all the way back to Rostov. I doubt many would have made it.

For another example, I'll refer you to "Blood, Tears and Folly", a factual book by Len Deighton. Remember those huge encirclement in 1941? Well, it reveals how the Germans counted their prisoners. It seems they took documents from every HQ they overran and added up the ration strengths (which were unlikely to have been recently updated). No accounting for who died during the battle, or who managed to escape the encirclement. So 300,000 men captured in a pocket may only have been 150,000, still a big haul but not quite as impressive (on the bright side it suggests that not so many Russian POWs died before they ever got to a prisoner of war camp).

A final example, how many people have heard of operation Bagration? OK, this is a wargame site, lets hope a lot of you have. For those who haven't it was probably the most decisive operation of the second world war, the destruction of an entire German army GROUP (army group center). It happened in 1944, and the scale dwarfs the battle for normandy which took place around the same time. But it's relatively unknown. Possibly because those German sources I mentioned would rather forget about it? Popular histories of the eastern front tend to gloss over the period from just after Kursk up to the fall of Berlin, making it hard to easily find details of this period of the war, the period when the Russians put into practice the lessons they had learned.

I'm going on too much, yeah? Rolling Eyes

What can I say, it's the most interesting online debate I've been in for a while. And no matter what we say, the Germans didn't get to Moscow, but the Russians got to Berlin Smile

      
Roobarb
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Re:Hindsight is 20/20 Mon, 27 August 2007 22:26
maybe hindsight is not 20/20 arfter all Surprised

[Updated on: Mon, 27 August 2007 22:30]

      
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Re:Hindsight is 20/20 Mon, 27 August 2007 23:45
Neil - I think a slight issue with the Germans or maybe a blinding fascination with the Red Army is coming across in your posts Confused .

Do you think that the Red Army would have got to Berlin if the US had not been in the European theatre tying up (and destroying) colossal numbers of troops, equipment - armour & aircraft, munitions, and resources ... that was the importance of their involvement I was trying to present.
      
Randwulf
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Re:Hindsight is 20/20 Tue, 28 August 2007 05:09
GreatDane wrote on Mon, 27 August 2007 14:25

The level of intelligence means nothing.
It is quite possible to be highly intelligent and a weirdo at the same time.



Sounds like your talking about me??? "weird is wonderful"
I am probably the most eclectic guy here... aside from Roob...

and I know a lot more people even weirder than me....

but really... to be a gamer you got to be a little off your nut to begin with.

Very Happy

and I don't think Neal has a " slight issue with the Germans or maybe a blinding fascination with the Red Army " I think as any good historian he has tried to look at the view from both sides. It sounds to me as if he, like myself, has a great respect for both sides.

Cause and Philosophy of the combatants have major impact on historical studys. BUT should stay far away from the Gaming table.

[Updated on: Tue, 28 August 2007 05:48]

      
rasmussen81
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Re:Hindsight is 20/20 Tue, 28 August 2007 06:32
Neil, I don't know much about operation Bagration. Where could I find some info on that? (aside from the internet. Call me old fashioned but I like reading hard-copies)

Reading over all of these posts I can tell we have some people who are huge history lovers as well as wargamers. The more I learn about WWII and the men involved in it (on every side, in every theater), the more I am impressed with human ability and bravery.

I read about British Commandos who went on missions they knew they probably wouldn't come back from. The normal Russian trooper wasn't necisarily a professional soldier but the Russian army fought so well that everyone recognised their ability (even German generals who thought they might be able to walk through Russia). I think about Allied troops storming the beaches of Normandy and making it through that deathtrap. War is a bloody, brutal thing that makes heroes out of everyone.

My hat is off to everyone who fought in the Great war, or the Great Patriotic War. Thank you for the freedom you gave us all!
      
Roobarb
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Re:Hindsight is 20/20 Tue, 28 August 2007 09:23

Sounds like your talking about me??? "weird is wonderful"
I am probably the most eclectic guy here... aside from Roob...

Twisted Evil truly randwulf you honer me Twisted Evil
      
neil1967
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Re:Hindsight is 20/20 Tue, 28 August 2007 11:34
Quote:

Neil, I don't know much about operation Bagration. Where could I find some info on that? (aside from the internet. Call me old fashioned but I like reading hard-copies)



You could try "Hitlers Greatest Defeat" by Paul Adair, ISBN 1 86019 8414.

Amazon has loads of copies, at low cost.
      
neil1967
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Re:Hindsight is 20/20 Tue, 28 August 2007 11:55
Quote:

Neil - I think a slight issue with the Germans or maybe a blinding fascination with the Red Army is coming across in your posts .

Do you think that the Red Army would have got to Berlin if the US had not been in the European theatre tying up (and destroying) colossal numbers of troops, equipment - armour & aircraft, munitions, and resources ... that was the importance of their involvement I was trying to present.


I just like to see a balanced view, and I think the current viewpoint of many people is heavily slanted to the german view of the eastern front. I don't think this helps us when we try to play realistic games. If that makes me seem pro russian and anti german so be it, but I'm not.

As for whether the Russians could have got to Berlin without a US presence on the western front, we'll never know. It should be noted though that german troops were tied up in all their occupied territories throughtout the war, 200,000 in Norway for example. Even without a US presence the threat of a commonwealth invasion of an abandoned France would have kept large forces there.

Without the USA in the war would we have invaded Italy? Not doing so would have freed up more commonwealth forces for elsewhere. But without the US in the war Churchill may have been more likely to go for the balkans. All the possibilities make speculation interesting but fruitless.

The fact is that the US made the major contribution to the western front, and the western front made a significant contribution to the eastern front, though how significant is arguable.

To turn your question around, do you think the war could have been won on the western front if Hitler had never attacked Russia, and Russia had remained neutral?
      
Roobarb
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Re:Hindsight is 20/20 Tue, 28 August 2007 12:47
i think what must be taken taken in to acount is the reasolve of the british pepole as the battle of britain raged above britain was not ideal secret bunkers where built with food and eqipment stores for special teams of saborturs to pop up when the the dust setaled pillboxs were built tank trap where set up erey bridge in the whole of britain had pepole ready to defend it hunderands of miles of defeces where built schools in sabtage where set up wen the home gard was formed somany pepole joined up that the goverment where swamped ...in 1972 the comanders of the britsh home defnce and gereman comanders got to geather played a masive wargame useing the operation sea lion plans the result being they never made it to london how ever southern england was desamated...i dont think britan could have won the war with out the support of america and the soviet union but this just boosts my admeration of the british pepole of this time .
      
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