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Randwulf
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Re:Hindsight is 20/20 Tue, 28 August 2007 14:00
some Casualties statistics... only approximation's...

Country Military / Civilian / Total dead

USSR- 12 million/ 17 million / 29 million
Poland - 597,000 / 5.86 million /6.27 million
Germany - 3.25 million/ 2.44 million /5.69 million


France - 245,000 / 350,000 /595,000
Italy - 380,000 / 153,000 /533,000
Great Britain - 403,000 / 92,700 /495,000
United States - 407,000 / 6,000 /413,000



and this does not include the wounded...


nor what Stalin did to his own...


We don't have to agree on a countries or persons philosophy to admire it's / their accomplishments.

      
neil1967
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Re:Hindsight is 20/20 Tue, 28 August 2007 14:28
Quote:

We don't have to agree on a countries or persons philosophy to admire it's / their accomplishments.



Well said Smile
      
GreatDane
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Re:Hindsight is 20/20 Tue, 28 August 2007 14:33
Randwulf wrote on Tue, 28 August 2007 05:09

GreatDane wrote on Mon, 27 August 2007 14:25

The level of intelligence means nothing.
It is quite possible to be highly intelligent and a weirdo at the same time.



Sounds like your talking about me??? "weird is wonderful"
I am probably the most eclectic guy here... aside from Roob...



It was actually Stalin I had in mind Rolling Eyes
      
neil1967
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Re:Hindsight is 20/20 Tue, 28 August 2007 14:57
Quote:

i dont think britan could have won the war with out the support of america and the soviet union but this just boosts my admeration of the british pepole of this time .



I'd say that Britain couldn't have won on it's own, but it kept the fight going until help could arrive. It also gave support and hope to resistance movements in the occupied countries, which tied down large numbers of Germans. The RAF played a major role, but I consider the Royal Navy the key to Britains survival.

Russia most likely would have been defeated if the Germans hadn't had to keep forces back to counter the threat from Britain and the forces needed to hold down their conquests. Over half the German army was committed to Russia, giving the western democracies a fighting chance. And the Red Army beat them.

The USA couldn't have done anything in Europe without a secure base to operate from, and this had to be Britain IMO. D-Day was successful because it only faced a small part of the German army (the majority being in Russia), and it was still a risky enterprise. Up until D-Day the most significant US impact on the war (ignoring Italy, but that's a whole other debate) was through strategic bombing.

So, if you assume Germany was beaten by mid 1944 and it was just a question of how long it was going to take to finish them off, perhaps we could say that victory in Europe was mainly due to the Royal Navy, the Red Army and the USAAF? A bit of an oversimplification maybe, but with a grain of truth in it...

In any event, we all needed each other, and we all owe a debt to those who fought in ALL the allied armies.
      
Roobarb
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Re:Hindsight is 20/20 Tue, 28 August 2007 17:47
my grand father was a partisan and he would complain that the british would always drop the wrong ammo for his guns Rolling Eyes

[Updated on: Tue, 28 August 2007 17:48]

      
50th
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Re:Hindsight is 20/20 Tue, 28 August 2007 22:38
[quote title=neil1967 wrote on Mon, 27 August 2007 14:52]
Quote:

Neil - I think you have got us all down as fascists or something daring to say the German army wasn't too bad a fighting force, which I'm pretty sure no one here is ... or do you think we are beating down on Russia because we are all commie haters, once again I'm sure no one falls into this category.

I don't think you're a fascist, or that anyone else here is for that matter. Sorry if I gave that impression.




Sorry Neil, that I got that impression. I just like to play the "Baddies" depending on the scenario. I really like some of the Eastern Front scenarios. #1743U and #1833U are among my favorites.
      
rasmussen81
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Re:Hindsight is 20/20 Tue, 28 August 2007 22:50
Roobarb, I never knew that the Generals all sat down and played out the Operation Sealion. That would have been really interesting to watch. Through this whole discusion it's interesting to hear about how one battle or one country impacted the whole outcome of the war! This is all amazing stuff. And the British resolve in the face of the German invasion is pretty incredible too. My wife's grandma was a volunteer fire fighter during the bombing of a small town in England (I'll have to ask which town). She said that when the siren went off telling them bombers where coming, she and her friends would walk the streets with buckets of water and sand. When I asked her if she was afraid of being hit by a bomb she said she wasn't. "It was actually a lot of fun." What an amazing atitute to have.
      
Roobarb
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Re:Hindsight is 20/20 Wed, 29 August 2007 03:45
yea but it was not just the generals there where other ranks to what level i cant remember {so i wont pretend to ) i saw some pictures and the table must have been 15 ft sqauer with blocks to reprsent the units this is from the minds eye
      
60WATZ
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Re:Hindsight is 20/20 Thu, 30 August 2007 22:14
My thread got jacked yo...
      
Randwulf
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Re:Hindsight is 20/20 Fri, 31 August 2007 05:22
sorry...

Embarassed



still falls under hindsight.

Rolling Eyes

[Updated on: Fri, 31 August 2007 05:24]

      
rasmussen81
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Re:Hindsight is 20/20 Fri, 31 August 2007 16:13
Neil, although the RAF, Royal Navy, Red Army, and USAAF all did important things, I would have to make an argument that one of the main reasons D-Day was successful was because of effective British Counter-inteligence. They were so good at what they did that the German forces were convinced the Normandy landings were a diversion! Laughing

If the British hadn't captured and turned all of the German spies, used Gordo (I think that was his Code Name) to feed Germans false information - and sometimes real information to build trust in his word, then Rommell would have been able to move the tanks into an effective position along the Normandy front, he would have had more troops, and D-Day may have been a huge disaster.

Counter-inteligence is always overlooked! Crying or Very Sad
      
Roobarb
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Re:Hindsight is 20/20 Fri, 31 August 2007 16:44
rasmussen81 wrote on Fri, 31 August 2007 15:13

Neil, although the RAF, Royal Navy, Red Army, and USAAF all did important things, I would have to make an argument that one of the main reasons D-Day was successful was because of effective British Counter-inteligence. They were so good at what they did that the German forces were convinced the Normandy landings were a diversion! Laughing

If the British hadn't captured and turned all of the German spies, used Gordo (I think that was his Code Name) to feed Germans false information - and sometimes real information to build trust in his word, then Rommell would have been able to move the tanks into an effective position along the Normandy front, he would have had more troops, and D-Day may have been a huge disaster.

Counter-inteligence is always overlooked! Crying or Very Sad


and british counter iteligece greatst acete must have been the british pepole i think german spys never lasted more than a copple days before geting captuered as for german fighter pilotes well they didnt stand a chance of get home oh and i believe the polish pilot had trouble to Very Happy or is that the movies and the codename is GARBO i think Smile
      
tank commander
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Re:Hindsight is 20/20 Wed, 05 September 2007 23:27
[quote title=neil1967 wrote on Mon, 27 August 2007 09:59]
Quote:



A lot of wargamers do seem to like the idea of being the Germans, especially when fighting Russians. And a lot of them seem to like being the SS even more. There was a set of "eastern front" wargame scenarios published a few years ago, dedicated to the "heroes" of the Totenkopf division (formed from concentration camp guards no less). I personally find that a bit distasteful. Not all game publishers are like that, but there is definately a market for those who are.


This could be a case of wanting to play the more challenging side of a given scenario or game. Let us face it - for a good deal of the war the Germans were the "underdogs" in most of the military match ups. If I were a betting man, I would not have laid any money down on their odds in a number of battles (Kursk anyone?). I do not think that most wargamers want to take the Germans because they side w/ the 3rd Reich nor to "see" the Germans win the war.

Out of curiosity, what company published those Totenkopf scenarios? I feel (as you do) that such a "dedication" should NOT have been used. The same rule should apply when some designer included his talking up the Soviet government during WW II in his games.
      
neil1967
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Re:Hindsight is 20/20 Thu, 06 September 2007 11:49
Quote:

This could be a case of wanting to play the more challenging side of a given scenario or game. Let us face it - for a good deal of the war the Germans were the "underdogs" in most of the military match ups. If I were a betting man, I would not have laid any money down on their odds in a number of battles (Kursk anyone?). I do not think that most wargamers want to take the Germans because they side w/ the 3rd Reich nor to "see" the Germans win the war.



I think a lot of it is probably to do with the technology, a lot of players seem attracted to panthers and tigers and the like. Not that that would be an issue in M44, where a tank is just a tank, but it's certainly there in other board games and miniature games. Which is probably why germans (in game terms) are more "popular" in 1943-1945 (when they were losing) than in 1939-1942.

Quote:

Out of curiosity, what company published those Totenkopf scenarios? I feel (as you do) that such a "dedication" should NOT have been used. The same rule should apply when some designer included his talking up the Soviet government during WW II in his games.


The scenarios were for the Spearhead miniature rules, the scenario book was called "where the iron crosses grow", published by Quantum Publishing.

You refering to "comrade" Jack Radey? An interesting guy, I loved "Korsun Pocket", great game. But I know what you mean about his comments (assuming it is him you refer to).
      
tank commander
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Re:Hindsight is 20/20 Thu, 06 September 2007 22:52
I think a lot of it is probably to do with the technology, a lot of players seem attracted to panthers and tigers and the like.


That is probably true.

I am an somewhat of an armor "nut". Funny thing is my favorite German tank is the Mk III w/ 50mm-L 60 gun. Other favorites: KV-1, Stuart, Grant - Lee and the Matilda.

Also, Mr Radey is that designer.

[Updated on: Thu, 06 September 2007 22:52]

      
rasmussen81
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Re:Hindsight is 20/20 Sun, 16 September 2007 20:57
tank commander wrote on Thu, 06 September 2007 13:52



I am an somewhat of an armor "nut". Funny thing is my favorite German tank is the Mk III w/ 50mm-L 60 gun. Other favorites: KV-1, Stuart, Grant - Lee and the Matilda.


Hence the name "Tank Commander", I get it. I'm starting to look at maybe building some model tanks just for fun. I'm looking at 1/72 models but there are a lot of companies that make the sets, and lots of tanks to choose from. Do you have any advice? Is there a company that has better detail or better pieces...a tank that would HAVE to be part of a collection? Thanks for the help!
      
yangtze
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Re:Hindsight is 20/20 Sun, 16 September 2007 23:23
My favourite 1/72 kits years ago were by Esci. Don't know if they're even still in existence. They had great detail and looked very authentic.
      
Roobarb
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Re:Hindsight is 20/20 Sun, 16 September 2007 23:27
its gotta be tamiya http://www.tamiya.com/english/products/archive.htm they dont do 1,72 scale but they do 1,48 (28mm)and 1,35 scales and as a show model with impact tamiya 1,35 imho cant be beat ceck out that dirty 88 or the sas desert jeep Razz

[Updated on: Mon, 17 September 2007 02:53]

      
tank commander
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Re:Hindsight is 20/20 Mon, 17 September 2007 12:07
rasmussen81 wrote on Sun, 16 September 2007 14:57

tank commander wrote on Thu, 06 September 2007 13:52



I am an somewhat of an armor "nut". Funny thing is my favorite German tank is the Mk III w/ 50mm-L 60 gun. Other favorites: KV-1, Stuart, Grant - Lee and the Matilda.


Hence the name "Tank Commander", I get it. I'm starting to look at maybe building some model tanks just for fun. I'm looking at 1/72 models but there are a lot of companies that make the sets, and lots of tanks to choose from. Do you have any advice? Is there a company that has better detail or better pieces...a tank that would HAVE to be part of a collection? Thanks for the help!


Funny thing is I have not built a model in a loooong time. I used to (from time to time) when I was a kid. But then, my friends and I could not resist to urge to blow them apart w/ firecrackers.

When I got older (and less destructive) I bought a lot of 1/285 armor. My collection numbers 3000+ pcs today.

However, your idea sounds like a good one (building models) and I may try it myself.
      
beagleblue2
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Re:Hindsight is 20/20 Wed, 19 September 2007 03:29
For those of us with little time or patience for building/painting models, there are some wonderful pre-painted die-cast kits from Dragon, MRC and others.

I still get a great deal of plesure out of building 1/72 scale armor kits and then try to customize each one a little to make it unique, using tools, canvas stowage, camo-netting etc.

The trouble is that I like using them in games and it takes me too long to finish a platoon, so the pre-painted Dragon kits are very tempting--of course I still can't resist doing a little customizing in the form of added weathering or re-decaling to make multiple copies of the same kit look like completely different tanks.

Maybe someday, I'll get to retire and hopefully while I'm still able to enjoy all my toys . . .
      
Roobarb
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Re:Hindsight is 20/20 Wed, 19 September 2007 03:55
yea iev seen them die cast models there lovely Razz
      
CanuckHero
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Re:Hindsight is 20/20 Wed, 19 September 2007 04:48
I'm back (and no, I wasn't incarcerated Wink. Spent lots of tiem with the kids over the summer.

Re:
A final example, how many people have heard of operation Bagration? OK, this is a wargame site, lets hope a lot of you have. For those who haven't it was probably the most decisive operation of the second world war, the destruction of an entire German army GROUP (army group center). It happened in 1944, and the scale dwarfs the battle for normandy which took place around the same time. But it's relatively unknown. Possibly because those German sources I mentioned would rather forget about it? Popular histories of the eastern front tend to gloss over the period from just after Kursk up to the fall of Berlin, making it hard to easily find details of this period of the war, the period when the Russians put into practice the lessons they had learned.

Let's look at timelines, assuming that Hitler doesn't declare war on the U.S. in Dec. '41. For the sake of argument, assume it takes FDR 12 months to convince congress to declare war on Germany. Let's see how this plays out in time:

No invasion of NW Africa in spring '43. Let's say a 6 month delay invading Sicily in consequence, and a 9 month delay invading Italy. What is the effect on the Eastern Front? Probably still a significant victory by the Red Army in summer of '44, but no 'Destruction of Army Group Centre' Let's say the offensive gets to Minsk instead of Warsaw. This is quite realistic because (1) no invasion of France is yet immiment, and (2) Italy is still in, or just out, of the war. This frees up somewhere between 0.5 to 1 million men for the Eastern Front in Spring '44. With a smaller material drain from the Western Fronts, perhaps Hitler even considers a 'Battle of the Bulge' type pre-emptive offensive in May '44. Worse, maybe he has the material and doesn't! Perhaps The Russian offensive akes inital gains and stalls around Smolensk. I read an interesting comment recently suggesting that the Red Army ran out of men in Winter '44-45, and ran on momentum for the final 5 months. I don't know how to quickly verify this, but if true, Stalin woud definitely not have been pressing for Berlin until '46 or even '47. By then Japan is defeated, the A-bomb has been dropped, and the U.S is centrifuging U-235 like crazy, producing massive quantities of A-Bombs. My dad narrowly escaped form a 'Slave Labour' train in the eastern Netherlands in September '44 (just north of Arnhem, no less), but how long could he have hidden succesfully if there had not been an Allied presence in France? All told, I am grateful that Hitler was such a madman. I often enjoy playing the Germans, because they have the presure of initiative and quality troops, but I am no Fascist.
      
Roobarb
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Re:Hindsight is 20/20 Thu, 25 October 2007 02:37
do you have any links for this op Razz
      
Randwulf
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Re:Hindsight is 20/20 Thu, 25 October 2007 12:20
here ya go Roob... this should keep you off the streets for a few hours...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Bagration

http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/library/report/call/c all_3-88_histp.htm

http://www.historynet.com/wars_conflicts/world_war_2/3421346 .html

http://www.axishistory.com/index.php?id=5719

Very Happy
      
Roobarb
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Re:Hindsight is 20/20 Thu, 25 October 2007 17:30
nice one randwulf Christmas
      
50th
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Re:Hindsight is 20/20 Mon, 10 December 2007 07:29
I know I'm reviving a long retired thread, but I just read this story. I hope you enjoy it. Cool

A U.S. Navy Admiral was attending a naval conference that included Admirals from the U.S., English, Canadian, Australian and French Navies. At a cocktail reception, he found himself standing with a large group of Officers that included personnel from most of those countries. Everyone was chatting away in English as they sipped their drinks but a French admiral suddenly complained that, 'whereas Europeans learn many languages, Americans learn only English.' He then asked, 'Why is it that we always have to speak English in these conferences rather than speaking French?'
Without hesitating, the American Admiral replied 'Maybe it's because the Brits, Canadians, Aussies and Americans arranged it so you wouldn't have to speak German.'
You could have heard a pin drop

No disrespect to our French gamers out there is intended.
      
Roobarb
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Re:Hindsight is 20/20 Mon, 10 December 2007 13:18
lol
thats so french Rolling Eyes
      
labalbi
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Re:Hindsight is 20/20 Mon, 10 December 2007 16:14
Well I wanna back the initial discussion . About the expansions .

I have M44+eastern front ( I love it ! The winter board and the winter hexes are just amazing ) .

Im gonna buy the Air Pack now. In Brummbar site he gives us all a hint : 'Get the Terrain Pack' .

Well , Im gonna buy the Terrain Pack too with Air Pack so I can save some U$ in the shipment fee .

Terrain Pack has only few scenarios . I have no intention (and time) to create my own. But this hint by Brummbar about Terrain Pack ...humm...Im wondering if DOW are releasing more TP scenarios in 2008 ...

a hug
labalbi
      
50th
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Re:Hindsight is 20/20 Tue, 11 December 2007 16:53
Go onto SFTF and you will find a whole lot of scenarios that use the terrain pack. Here are a few scenario numbers 2748u and 2759u. These are my favorite Terrain Pack scenarios. (well, 2759u is mine, so it should be) Embarassed

Christmas
      
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