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dikfox
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3 Players FFA Mon, 03 September 2007 21:09
Has any one come up with a way to do a 3 player free for all with house rules? We have all the expansions, including 2 boards.
      
doubleoseven
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Re:3 Players FFA Tue, 04 September 2007 04:45
i've often wondered how one could do a 3 way hex-based game. i've yet to try it but i wonder if something like this might be possible.

http://www.007design.com/battlelore/3wayhex.jpg

you'd create a special board that would sit on top of three boards placed with the standard side up; i.e. not the epic side. the dark gray hexes would line up with the last row of hexes on the standard game board. (the other option, of course, would be to create a special board that doesn't use the boards that come with the game so as to not have to try and line up that last row.)

the three hexes in the center could count as being in all three areas (left wing, right wing, center) for purposes of ordering units.

as i said, i don't know if this would just be much too complicated to be worth it but i'm throwing it out there to see what you guys think. i have no idea how you would go about setting up a scenario as far as troop placement, etc. a 3 way game would be awesome though.

[Updated on: Wed, 05 September 2007 17:52]

      
ColtsFan76
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Re:3 Players FFA Tue, 04 September 2007 05:18
Interesting concept. One issue I see with it is that presumable each player is set up on their own "regular" board. It is going to take some time just to move your units into any sort of battle. Then when everyone converges, it is a much tighter board to manuaever around.

When I saw this post, I thought of using the Epic board with 2 players in their normal positions. Then the 3rd player would sit on one of the unused perpendicular edges. Sections could be marked off with string for this 3rd player and units would be issued as normal. You might want to consider tweaking the deck though to give it a boost in cards - maybe get it up to 80 cards by adding in two more of each section card and maybe 1 each of every tactic card. the Lore deck may hve to be altered as well.
      
dikfox
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Re:3 Players FFA Tue, 04 September 2007 19:22
wow. that would be a crazy board. we are still trying to come up with something. 2v1 gets old, and waiting for people to finish 1v1 can take a while (our group plays slower, with much taunting and yelling). 90% of the time we have an odd number of people.
      
Caboose
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Re:3 Players FFA Tue, 04 September 2007 19:39
It would be nice to have something for those 3 player BL tourny finals...and thus be fair and balanced for all 3.

Definitely agree with Colt on that triangle middle board..it would take a while for units to get to the battle and thus the person who moves there first might be at a "disadvantage" from the standpoint that the other 2 players can plan accordingly to attack this one unit or group of units.

Cab
      
Jude
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Re:3 Players FFA Tue, 04 September 2007 21:02
Caboose wrote on Tue, 04 September 2007 13:39

It would be nice to have something for those 3 player BL tourny finals...and thus be fair and balanced for all 3.

Definitely agree with Colt on that triangle middle board..it would take a while for units to get to the battle and thus the person who moves there first might be at a "disadvantage" from the standpoint that the other 2 players can plan accordingly to attack this one unit or group of units.

Cab



That seems to be the trouble with trying to play 3-player games. Someone usually gets beaten up on by the other two players.


That is a cool-looking board, though!

Jude
      
doubleoseven
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Try and keep up with me here Tue, 04 September 2007 21:03
You made some good points. I've been thinking about this some more, here's what I've come up with. (Try and keep up with me now Very Happy )

http://www.007design.com/battlelore/3way1.jpg

I took 4 rows of hexes off of each 'side' to make it a bit quicker to get to the center. (Incidentally, I like the epic size board more cause it gives you more room to maneuver, so I don't know that lots more room would be so much bad as that it would take longer to play. But a 3 player game would take longer regardless.) The tricky thing I see is deciding which area your troops are in for activation purposes (e.g. left, right, center). Here's my take on the 3 areas for the red player in the above image.

http://www.007design.com/battlelore/3way2.jpg

Here, red is the left wing, green the center and blue the right wing. The gray hexes are in 2 areas as the divider passes through them (except for the center 3 which are in all 3 areas).

I think this nutty map configuration would be really cool if there were some kind of objective in the center (castle, fountain, brothel, whatever) that you'd have to hold in order to win. Another interesting concept would be for a 4th player to start in the center, either as a regular player or defending the objective.

So, have i totally lost my mind? Would this be far too difficult to play on? I once played chess on a 4 player board. It was insane but it worked.

[Updated on: Wed, 05 September 2007 17:53]

      
Caboose
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Re:3 Players FFA Tue, 04 September 2007 21:48
Have no problem with that board..just that NO ONE has it.

Would be nice to maybe construct something with either the Epic and/or Battlelore boards to make it nice and easy to play for 3 players.

Maybe something like using 2 Epic boards and thus each player has units on ONE section of the Epic, and thus what is the left section is player 1's area, middle section is player 2's and right section is player's 3.

And maybe make it so that the middle section / player 2 is holding up in a castle and has some unique retreat abilities (Unique in the fact that he/she has no obvious bottom of the board to go to since he/she is in the middle).

alas, I know that DoW hasn't constructed much in the way of Castle pieces, barring Ramparts, the Stronghold piece and the Warrior's training camp. Obviously I guess one could devise maybe some clever way of using the Rogue's Den as an escape, but if one of the other 2 does have a level 3 Rogue, so much for using that!

Guess we need to get more castle pieces from DoW to make this idea work! Embarassed
      
doubleoseven
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Re:3 Players FFA Tue, 04 September 2007 22:30
Quote:

Maybe something like using 2 Epic boards and thus each player has units on ONE section of the Epic, and thus what is the left section is player 1's area, middle section is player 2's and right section is player's 3.


How would you then determine the left, right and center sections for purposes of activating units? I suppose you could "draw" lines for them but if you're playing with the epic board essentially rotated 90 degrees the hexes no longer line up the same way. The lines would go straight down a row of hexes from side to side as opposed to corner to corner. Also, for purposes of retreating, you have 3 hexes "behind" you. Could you retreat to any of the three?

http://www.007design.com/battlelore/epic90.jpg

I'd be more than happy to create a pdf you could print out on a bunch of sheets to tape together if someone would like to try this. I was going to do that myself, I just don't have the game here at the moment to measure the actual size of the hexes. (Anyone? Corner to corner or side to side measurement?) If anyone is interested, please let me know and I'll put some nice textures on there and make a printable pdf. I'm a graphic artist so it would be fun.

[Updated on: Wed, 05 September 2007 17:53]

      
Roobarb
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Re:3 Players FFA Tue, 04 September 2007 22:37
16mm along the sflats 31mm point to point hope that helps Smile
      
ColtsFan76
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Re:3 Players FFA Wed, 05 September 2007 03:01
What you have laid out as the epic board with 9 sections is exactly what I had in mind. Even the color of the section lines as well!

Some of the old Battle Cry scenarios were laid out this way and it worked just fine. What you have as the retreat arrows works out well. Since the players on the perpendicular's have a more scrunched field (and a slight disadvantage in this set-up) the extra hex of retreat allows them a slight advantage. But you also retain the 3 sections for each player and it is clearly marked.

Another advantage is that the players on the perpindiculars also have a more versatile "seam" Instead of every other hex being split between two sections along that line, the whole column of them are on the seem. This just helps with the shortened width of giving these players more help to offset their disadvantage.

The disadvantage is in 3-player game where 1 player is going to be "squeezed" between two other players. aperhaps it may take a few games to see if you should play long-short-long or short-long-short to help balance it out. Perhaps the person in the middle gets 1 additional Command card or starts the game with 1 victory point already.

The problem with the new trigon layout is that the left-right-center is a bit confusing. But I don't quite followit anyway. However, looking at your layout has given me an idea however. i will do my best to explain it without putting up a graphic because I have no idea how you did that (make the layout i mean). this is in refernce to your first board on your 2nd post (the one with half size regular boards that are solid red, green and blue.

1) Instead of each player sitting on the long edge of the board like in a standard game, they sit at the "curved" portion of the board instead. (i.e. at the top in the middle and at the two bottom corners bweteen each of the two colors.
2) Let's use the top player s a apoint of reference.
3) as you have it marked out, anything in Green would be his left section; everything in Blue his Right Section and everything in Gray would be his center section.
4) Since the center section is the most spacious, perhaps instead of "seams" you would just have areas that could be goverend by either of two section cards. Perhaps once the top player moves past the horizontal pink line, the left half of this area, the player could use left or center cards and if he is on the right, then right or center cards.
5)Everything in red would be off limits to him. Therfore, the other two players could retreat here and be safe from the third player but it would still be subject to ranged attacks. Or maybe you make it so that you need an extra order to move into that section (so it would cost 2 orders to move 1 unit while in the red.
6) Each player should still retain a clear 2-hex retreat option to his area
      
Vilemare
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Re:3 Players FFA Wed, 05 September 2007 05:22
Out of curiosity - the subject got me thinking.
Does anyone know even a single example of actual three sided field battle in history? (I am talking about the history of earth, not middle-earth Smile


      
ColtsFan76
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Re:3 Players FFA Wed, 05 September 2007 06:00
Vilemare wrote on Tue, 04 September 2007 22:22

Out of curiosity - the subject got me thinking.
Does anyone know even a single example of actual three sided field battle in history? (I am talking about the history of earth, not middle-earth Smile




What? you want to inject reality into this game now? Do you know of even a single example of actual trees going into a frenzy and killing everyone near them in history? (I am also talking about the history of earth, not middle earth Smile
      
yangtze
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Re:3 Players FFA Wed, 05 September 2007 07:39
Don't know about 3 sides each for themselves, but have a look at Bosworth 1485 (Wars of the Roses). This would work with a third player playing the Stanleys. I'm working on a single board version myself.
      
kilrah
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Re:3 Players FFA Wed, 05 September 2007 11:13
IMO the center section is way too small. If I ignore the upper half of the board (assuming I am the lower player) - which is reasonable as there is NOTHING there that is of interest to me the center section is what? 1/6th of the region I will move in. Any maybe 1/9th of the region I will fight in. Looks like center cards won't be of much value.
Personally I'd not let the lines cross in the center. Rather I'd just let them run in a straight line from each player board until they hit each other.
      
Jude
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Re:3 Players FFA Wed, 05 September 2007 13:31
Vilemare wrote on Tue, 04 September 2007 23:22

Out of curiosity - the subject got me thinking.
Does anyone know even a single example of actual three sided field battle in history? (I am talking about the history of earth, not middle-earth Smile






Well, there's Alesia. Not quite 3-sided, but there's the besieged town, the romans, then the Gauls who surround the Roman's who were besieging the town. (But, like yangtze's example, not 3 sides playing for themselves).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Alesia


There was a cool Avalon Hill game of this battle.

Jude

[Updated on: Wed, 05 September 2007 13:32]

      
Roobarb
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Re:3 Players FFA Wed, 05 September 2007 15:12
Vilemare wrote on Wed, 05 September 2007 04:22

Out of curiosity - the subject got me thinking.
Does anyone know even a single example of actual three sided field battle in history? (I am talking about the history of earth, not middle-earth Smile





hmmm Doubtful it depeands what you class a "battle" in a skirmish i think its posible. in ww2 yougoslavia had many factions some alied to germans some against but what the factions had in common if that they all hated each other Surprised but as for big battles each side fighting the other seems unlikey to me if i was a general id hide and wait for the other 2 side to have there battle and then attack the winner when they get back to there camp.

Idea a way to play a 3 player game is to play reluctant alies and the most seasoned player takes 2 player turn markers and the other 2 player each take 1 so you have 2 small armys working togeather to defeat a mighty foe Idea
      
Lord Manimal
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Re:3 Players FFA Wed, 05 September 2007 15:21
If I might be so bold as to interject (seems I've been doing a lot of that here), might I suggest simply utilizing heroscape tiles to build your battlefields? They're very close in side, they're hex, and the terrain matches up perfectly, outside of the snow, sand and lava tiles, in which case you simply don't build with them.
      
cebalrai
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Re:3 Players FFA Wed, 05 September 2007 15:23
Interesting concept. It fits the fantasy battle theme too. Lemme try to stress test the practicalities of the idea for you though. Smile

In my experience, games like this come down to kicking the guy who's weakest. In a game with players A, B, and C, where C has been weakened, A and B are best off attacking C when he's down. It gets you banners and avoids dangerous conflict with a stronger opponent.

Also you get unavoidable kill stealing. Player B attacks player A's unit with a mighty hit, reducing it to one figure. On the next turn player C does 1 damage to the unit and swipes the banner.

Gangbang effect. Player B and player C can both use attacks and lore cards against player A before he can react. People can be devastated before they can react, which may make people feel really helpless (not fun).

Unit balance would need to be reconsidered. Since there's the potential to be attacked a very large number of times, Dwarves gain a considerable amount of relative value. This isn't a problem so much as just something to keep in mind.

Certain Lore cards may need to be redesigned. The nuke cards would gain a whole lot of power. Chain lightning too. Maybe others...

Too much fear of a counterattack. Not only does your unit have to maybe face a battle back, it has to face your target's turn, plus another player's turn if he has a unit nearby ready to cherry pick a banner. Basically, strategy changes a lot and I'm not sure if it's in a good way.

[Updated on: Wed, 05 September 2007 15:24]

      
Lord Manimal
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Re:3 Players FFA Wed, 05 September 2007 15:54
As far as the dwarves go, I think that limiting battleback to only one per turn would equalize things considerably. That's actually one of my minor points of contention with the ruleset. The general idea of a group of troops being able to fight off an attack, then launch one of their own, then fight off another attack and launch another of their own, ad. naseum seems peculiar.
      
doubleoseven
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Re:3 Players FFA Wed, 05 September 2007 17:55
http://www.007design.com/battlelore/3waybattlelore.jpg

Here's what I've got so far. If anyone is actually interested in attempting to play on this monstrosity let me know. I'll post a link to a tiled pdf (or not tiled if you happen to have a large format printer).

Quote:

In my experience, games like this come down to kicking the guy who's weakest.


What about some kind of rule where the players each have a 'safe zone' of some sort, like a base. And if they hang out there long enough they could get reinforcements. More troops could enter on their side of the battlefield. It's obviously veering rather wide from the original rules but look at this silly board design. I think I passed a crucial point long ago.

[Updated on: Wed, 05 September 2007 18:13]

      
Roobarb
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Re:3 Players FFA Wed, 05 September 2007 19:01
Idea how about this the red,blue n yellow lines form a large central hex the player who contols the hex at the end of the turn gains a victory point Idea
      
doubleoseven
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Re:3 Players FFA Wed, 05 September 2007 19:13
by control do you mean that:

a) there are no enemy units in the 20 hexes that are entirely within the central hex

b) there are no enemy units in those 20 AND the 9 that are in the center and another section

c) the player with the most units in the central section counts as having control

d) each player with a unit in the central section gets a victory point?

i kind of like the idea of having some kind of objective in the 3 hexes in the exact center. it'd be easier to control 3 hexes than 29.
      
Roobarb
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Re:3 Players FFA Wed, 05 September 2007 19:36
i dont realy know i think cebalrai makes an exsilant point im thinking of ways to counter that just throwing out ideas brain stoming ..maybe control means the most units..maybe it the only way to get VPs Confused

[Updated on: Wed, 05 September 2007 19:38]

      
doubleoseven
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Re:3 Players FFA Wed, 05 September 2007 19:43
how bout if a player holds the center for x turns it opens a spacetime portal and they get a thermonuclear warhead from the future? Very Happy

ok sorry. i need to stop posting. Embarassed

[Updated on: Wed, 05 September 2007 19:44]

      
Roobarb
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Re:3 Players FFA Wed, 05 September 2007 19:48
Laughing Laughing ooh stop stop Laughing Laughing
      
doubleoseven
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Re:3 Players FFA Wed, 05 September 2007 19:57
how about if you got a victory point for moving a unit off the far side of your opponents starting point. as in, red would get a point for moving a unit off of blue's right wing or yellow's left wing. in order to do this you'd need to take a unit out of the battle in the center. if this were used in addition to a victory point for holding the center in some way it might help to deter someone from moving everyone to the center and staying there. they'd have to have someone at the back standing guard.

all this is rather moot at this point as i don't know how you'd go about creating a balanced scenario using a regular board.
      
dikfox
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Re:3 Players FFA Wed, 05 September 2007 21:05
wow look what i started. awesome input. doubleoseven i will test that map out if you have a pdf of it. we will be playing again on monday most likely. we are used to gangups, as Risk with an odd number of players always ends that way. I suppose finding more people in the Orlando area to play with us would have been the easier method, but this map you have made looks cool.

[Updated on: Wed, 05 September 2007 21:05]

      
Caboose
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Re:3 Players FFA Wed, 05 September 2007 21:48
doubleoseven wrote on Tue, 04 September 2007 14:30

Quote:

Maybe something like using 2 Epic boards and thus each player has units on ONE section of the Epic, and thus what is the left section is player 1's area, middle section is player 2's and right section is player's 3.


How would you then determine the left, right and center sections for purposes of activating units? I suppose you could "draw" lines for them but if you're playing with the epic board essentially rotated 90 degrees the hexes no longer line up the same way. The lines would go straight down a row of hexes from side to side as opposed to corner to corner. Also, for purposes of retreating, you have 3 hexes "behind" you. Could you retreat to any of the three?

http://www.007design.com/battlelore/epic90.jpg

I'd be more than happy to create a pdf you could print out on a bunch of sheets to tape together if someone would like to try this. I was going to do that myself, I just don't have the game here at the moment to measure the actual size of the hexes. (Anyone? Corner to corner or side to side measurement?) If anyone is interested, please let me know and I'll put some nice textures on there and make a printable pdf. I'm a graphic artist so it would be fun.


Yes that was something I was thinking of. For an initial try at this. Obviously there probably be some quirks to work out.

As for left, middle center, you have it already. Look at the board as you have it pictured.

Of course with 3 players, one players figures will need to use the icon pieces from Epic.

As for retreat for the middle person, that could be an issue. How about this as a "stab" : all units need to retreat to the middle of that section, with the middle of the middle section being the true middle...

Also the middle person will get "hammered" by the other 2, so maybe the player at the top (as you have the figure) be able to bring pieces down to the bottom board as well.

Did I miss anything else that might need to be addressed ?

Double : Not sure what you mean by the 3 hexes behind you so maybe you can indicate which 3 you are referring to - Thanks!

Cab
      
doubleoseven
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Re:3 Players FFA Wed, 05 September 2007 22:44
dikfox wrote on Wed, 05 September 2007 15:05

doubleoseven i will test that map out if you have a pdf of it.


Here is a link to the map as one big pdf if you want to tile it yourself or if you have a large format printer.
http://www.007design.com/battlelore/3waybattlelore.pdf
Be warned! It's 75Megs!

I split it up into overlapping pieces that should each fit on an 8.5x11 sheet and zipped them. Here is that file.
http://www.007design.com/battlelore/3waybattlelore-tiled.zip
Again, be warned! It's 83Megs!

(I'm uploading them right now so if the links don't work, try again in a few minutes.)

The files are so gigantic because I made them at 150dpi. If you don't care if your printouts are a bit fuzzy, let me know and I'll put together one at a lower resolution (smaller file size).

If you have any problems with assembling the map or anything else, please feel free to post in this thread, PM me, email me, etc. And if you actually get so far as to play on this crazy board please try and take some pictures and post a report of how the battle went. I'm very curious to know if it's workable.

Thanks!
      
Caboose
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Re:3 Players FFA Wed, 05 September 2007 23:38
Let us know when they are ready to d/l..just tried and couldn't get anything.

Definitely nice to mention how big they were!

Cab
      
doubleoseven
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Re:3 Players FFA Wed, 05 September 2007 23:56
they ought to work ok now.

btw, here's one at 72dpi.
http://www.007design.com/battlelore/3waybattlelore-72dpi.pdf
21Meg file!
      
bjhendricks
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Re:3 Players FFA Thu, 06 September 2007 00:08
How would counter attack command cards work on the triangular map?
      
doubleoseven
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Re:3 Players FFA Thu, 06 September 2007 00:44
I would say that you would get to replay the card of the player whose turn came directly before yours.
      
bjhendricks
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Re:3 Players FFA Thu, 06 September 2007 01:22
But still swap right for left/left for right? It no longer coresponds on the board. But there's probably no better solution, I guess...
      
doubleoseven
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Re:3 Players FFA Thu, 06 September 2007 05:36
It's not exactly the same effect, true. The units that your opponent activated in his left flank might not be in your right flank so it wouldn't work as a 'counter attack' but what are you gonna do? I'd say we just mark that down as one of what will probably be many rule inconsistencies / issues when trying to play with this wacky setup. Good catch though. How many of those are in the deck anyway?

[Updated on: Thu, 06 September 2007 05:39]

      
dikfox
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Re:3 Players FFA Thu, 06 September 2007 17:35
Downloading now! We were talking about some variations for 3 player. I think we might set some victory objectives rather than simple flag captures. To force people into the center, we are discussing a control tower that gives the player who is on the hex control of a creature on the board. We also talked about adding something similar to the checkers "Crown Me!" where if you make it to your opponents baseline middle, you gain a champion (added figure to the unit) that allows that unit to fight at +1. Some things like this to encourage movement on the board rather than turtling. Any other objective ideas for a 3 player game to keep people moving?

[Updated on: Thu, 06 September 2007 17:38]

      
dikfox
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Re:3 Players FFA Thu, 06 September 2007 17:44
Done downloading and printing out. Well done man! Now im trying to figure out what materials to get to turn this into a permanent board.
      
doubleoseven
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Re:3 Players FFA Thu, 06 September 2007 17:57
i had a couple of thoughts about that. one idea is to get the full size (non tiled) pdf printed out on a large format printer (at kinkos or something) and then have it laminated. you could then roll it up for transport. only problem would be that you'd have to weight down the corners or something when you wanted to use it so it didn't roll back up mid-game. another option would be to, again, print it on one large sheet and then adhere it to some kind of stiff board (foamcore or the like) which you could then cut into manageable sized pieces you'd assemble at game time. i'm not sure of the manufacturing process for something like the board that comes with the game. i assume that it's one large piece that is assembled and then scored but you'd be hard pressed to do that at home with enough precision so as to not actually cut all the way through it.
      
Roobarb
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Re:3 Players FFA Thu, 06 September 2007 18:06
Laughing just thinkeing about them corners rolling up mid game Laughing do you have any ideas for mounting stuff with out warping Question on foamboard(depron,pollyboard,foamcore or whatever you call it)would be nice Smile

[Updated on: Thu, 06 September 2007 18:07]

      
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