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Krieghund
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  Line of Sight Question Mon, 21 June 2004 23:09
If a village is located between two hills, is the line of sight still blocked from a unit on one hill to a unit on the other, or can you "see over it" because both units are "elevated"?
      
gt8595b
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Re:Line of Sight Question Tue, 22 June 2004 00:52
from hills p.14:
LINE OF SIGHT: A hill blocls line of sight for units trying to look over the Hill, Line of sight is not blocked when units are at the same height and on the same hill (plateau effect).
SO, unless the hills are connected through a chain of hills all touching each other, i would submit that the two units do not have line of sight; not because the town blocks veiw but because the two hills are seperated.
      
Brummbar44
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Re:Line of Sight Question Tue, 22 June 2004 02:41
Good question...also to figure into the problem...if there is a clear hex between two hills, why wouldn't you have a clear line of sight?

If not, why not? If so, then I would assume that any other interjecting terrain would also not block line of sight. (we use actual hills and that really illustrates the effect)

this is the way we've been playing...the plateau effect would carry through regardless of where the hills are.

Now...my question is...would a unit on the ground be seen by a unit on a hill if there is any intervening terrain??
      
gt8595b
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Re:Line of Sight Question Tue, 22 June 2004 03:42
new interpretation: maybe the rule about the plateu effect is refering to the situation when two units on hills have a hill between them !!! so maybe if its just two hills involved (one unit on each) touching or not touching - the unis have LoS. But if there are three (or more) hills (a unit on the two out hills) then, if the hills are all touching (so that its either just one hill) or partially touching (such that its two big plateaus/hills) there is LoS, but if the hills are completely seperated such that there is an intervening seperate hill directly in the line of fire there is no LoS.
      
RonB
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Re:Line of Sight Question Tue, 22 June 2004 14:28
Most war games with line of site rules usually address the hill/town/level terrain question by the location of the blocking terrain in the line of sight. Most say that if it is less than half the intervening distance, then it doesn't block. If it is, it does.

However, we are talking about much shorter ranges here. With infantry/armor only being able to fire two intervening hexes, that would mean the "blocking" terrain has to be adjacent to the firing unit and on a lower terrain. This could then get "dicey" (pun intended), as artillery has a range of five intervening hexes. That would mean the "blocking" terrain would have to be no more than two hexes away and at a lower level.

But how high is the hill and how tall are the trees in between? We are talking abstracts here and I don't think Memoir is aspiring to be ASL.

Perhaps a good rule of thumb might be if the firing unit is on a hill and the target unit is on lower terrain and is adjacent to intervening "blocking" terrain, then the line of sight is blocked, no matter the range involved. This would get to the point and avoid undo complication of the system.

[Updated on: Tue, 22 June 2004 14:34]

      
gt8595b
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Re:Line of Sight Question Tue, 22 June 2004 14:36
but, don't forget that art. doesn't need line of sight, at least i don't think they do. but i like the idea that if the unit is adjacent to the intervening terrain then los is blocked.
      
Bilben04
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Re:Line of Sight Question Tue, 22 June 2004 19:17
The answer to Krieghund's original question is that line of sight would be blocked by the intervening Town hex. The only exceptions in the rules where intervening blocking terrain can be ignored are for artillery in all cases, and for infantry and armor on contiguous hill hexes.

Brummbar's way of playing does not jive with the rules. Yes a clear hex between firer and target on hills won't block LOS, because the intervening hex contains no blocking terrain. And blocking terrain in either the firer's or target's hex don't block LOS as per the main rules. But if you put blocking terrain in the hex between that's not a hill, then LOS is blocked. If it doesn't look right on your table, then use forests, hedgerows and buildings that are taller than your hills.





      
Brummbar44
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Re:Line of Sight Question Tue, 22 June 2004 19:48
Bilben,

You yourself have then distorted the rules. It states that only units on hills and the same hill are not blocked by line of sight. So technically a hill hex seperated by open terrain from another hill hex would be a LOS obstruction.

While I suppose it could be argued that the two different hills might be of different heights it doesn't stand to reason that a unti on a hill would be obstructed by any intervening terrain wether clear or populated (hedgerows taller than hills?!?! that makes no sense).

Either way the rule needs clarification. When it states 'same hill' it should read 'same hill feature'. But I don't see why a unit on a hill couldn't see another unit on a hill with any intervening terrain (unless these are very low hills indeed).
      
Bilben04
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Re:Line of Sight Question Tue, 22 June 2004 20:02
Brummbar wrote on Tue, 22 June 2004 12:48

Bilben,

You yourself have then distorted the rules. It states that only units on hills and the same hill are not blocked by line of sight. So technically a hill hex seperated by open terrain from another hill hex would be a LOS obstruction.



Sorry, but this is not correct. You're not taking into consideration the main LOS rules. Read through the LOS rules on page 9. It says, "The terrain in the target hex does not block line of sight." Only blocking terrain in intervening hexes block LOS.

Quote:


While I suppose it could be argued that the two different hills might be of different heights it doesn't stand to reason that a unti on a hill would be obstructed by any intervening terrain wether clear or populated (hedgerows taller than hills?!?! that makes no sense).



It's an oversimplification that is not common sense, I agree. And you can play the game any way you like, but "them's the rules".
      
Brummbar44
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Re:Line of Sight Question Tue, 22 June 2004 20:39
Bilben,

I'm not questioning the line of sight rule at all...it is the hill LOS that is in question here (page 14)

What you are saying is that a unit on a hill seperated by a clear hex can see a unit on another hill. But that's not what the rules state. It clearly says they have to be on the same hill (feature I assume) thus the 'plateau effect'.

This is the part that doesn't make sense.

Then I am taking it one step further...I am saying if in fact you can see from one hill to another with a clear hex (which technically by the rules, you can't) then why couldn't you see regardless of terrain?

That is why I would like an official ruling on this one.
      
eric
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Re:Line of Sight Question Tue, 22 June 2004 21:07
Richard Borg is out to Origins until the end of the week, and the questions here are varied and tricky enough that I would rather wait before giving a definitive answer.
more info soon,
eric
      
AnglePark
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Re:Line of Sight Question Tue, 22 June 2004 21:53
Ugh... not the ugly one-eyed LOS monster. It's a wargame killer! Wink

I asked my pals about this one (two hills with a clear hex between them), and they all agreed that LOS is open; you can always fire into a terrain hex that blocks LOS, but not through it.

Whew - LOS can sure be tricky, even in the simpler systems. Smile
      
Bilben04
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Re:Line of Sight Question Tue, 22 June 2004 22:12
Brummbar wrote on Tue, 22 June 2004 13:39

Bilben,
What you are saying is that a unit on a hill seperated by a clear hex can see a unit on another hill. But that's not what the rules state. It clearly says they have to be on the same hill (feature I assume) thus the 'plateau effect'.



I think I'm beginning to see how you've come to this misunderstanding. You are reading the second sentence as if it said "If two units are not on the same Hill, then LOS is blocked." That's not what it is saying at all.

First, the main LOS rules make it clear that it is only terrain hexes between the firer and target that block LOS. That's why I referenced them earlier. So when you read the LOS rules in the Terrain section, they are all in reference to whether or not the Terrain hexes will block LOS when they are between the firer and target hexes. So what the LOS rules in the Hill section says (and I'm paraphrasing for greater clarity here) is: "An intervening Hill hex will block LOS. Except that LOS is not blocked when the firer and target are both in Hill hexes that are adjacent to the intervening Hill hex."

It does not say that being on a Hill allows you to ignore any other kind of blocking terrain. So intervening Town, Hedgerow and Forest hexes will all block LOS, regardless.
      
Brummbar44
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Re:Line of Sight Question Tue, 22 June 2004 22:34
To be quite clear the rule states - "Line of sight is not blocked when units are at the same height and on the same hill (plateau effect)".

This indicates that they would need to be on the same hill (hill feature, as being on the same hill would be impossible). Therefore if there is a lone hill, a clear hex and another lone hill the units on these hills would not have line of sight. That is the rule, strange as it may seem (it is the 'same hill' that brings about the confusion).

As for your refference to the LOS rules on page 9 you seem to overlook the fact that all of the examples assume the same level ie. ground level not hills.

It is a question of 'level' here...for example should there be a forest hex on top of a hill then yes, the woods would block LOS. But hill to hill is a different level than the ground. This is a standard wargame convention and as a result is not a far fetched concept that hill tops see other hill tops regardless of intervening terrain.

But I await the word from the man himself, all other opinions become irrelevant.
      
Brummbar44
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Re:Line of Sight Question Tue, 22 June 2004 22:41
Bilben,

I see what you are saying with the 'same hill' effect. So for example hill, clear, hill, hill the first hill can see the second hill but not the thrid because there is a hill in the way and a break in the plateau.

That makes sense now...however, I still disagree with the intervening terrain.

Again it is a question of level in my opinion (and hedgerows, for example would certainly be lower than the hills).

      
gt8595b
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Re:Line of Sight Question Tue, 22 June 2004 23:47
lets think about this angle: on the beach scenarios there are new terrains - bluffs, these require that a unit spend 2 moves to climb it. perhaps the hills we're thinking, the nominal tile hills, are not vast differneces in the elevation. If they were then perhaps they would all behave like bluffs. perhaps they're hillocks(sp?) that are small hump maybe 15 to 20 ft high (i have no good idea for a round number) and the bluffs are like 25 to 50 ft. high. so even with a 10 ft raise in elevation if you look across a few barns or small section of forest the enemy can keep out of sight. I'm thinking that the defender bonus on hills come from being able to sit behind the crest.

[Updated on: Tue, 22 June 2004 23:50]

      
Brett
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Re:Line of Sight Question Wed, 23 June 2004 01:37
Hill Hex = H
Open = 0
Town = T


H O H

Either unit on a hill can fire at the other one at -1.



H1 H2 O H

A unit on H1 cannot shoot at a unit on H, as h2 blocks line of site. A unit on H1 and a unit on H2 can battle each other. Nothing is preventing the unit on H1 to moving to H2 and firing at H,

H T H

Towns block line of sight, period. (Except artillery and the couple of command cards) No shooting is possible between the two hills.



H1 H2 H3 H4

A unit is on H1 and H3. They can shoot at each other as the hills are adjacent, and considered to be the same height. (Assuming the scenario doesn't overide the basic rules) Why is this different from above? Because the hills above are not adjacent, thats why.

This a little clearer?


[Updated on: Wed, 23 June 2004 01:37]

      
gt8595b
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Re:Line of Sight Question Wed, 23 June 2004 01:59
well explained and good visual aids.
      
Brummbar44
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Re:Line of Sight Question Wed, 23 June 2004 02:28
Quote:

Hill Hex = H
Open = 0
Town = T


H O H

Either unit on a hill can fire at the other one at -1.


Not quite correct...units at the same level don't suffer the -1 penalty...only units firing from the ground up a hill do.

You also provide no rationale why H T H would be blocked...
      
inquisitor
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Re:Line of Sight Question Wed, 23 June 2004 03:42
Brett Excellent explaination, with the one error as pointed out by Brummbar.

Brummbar, I beleive his rationale was from the rule book that said Towns block line of sight, as does the woods, and the hedgerows.

I also understand your point from having read the previous post.

With no levels assigned all one can do is assume. At this point having played the game since the weekend of 5/28/04 we have played that towns block line of sight when firing on units that are beyound the town on the flats. Towns do not block line of sight when firing over them such as: H=Hill T=Town ( H T H) as we believe that the hills are or would be considered say a level 3 and towns would be level 2 with the flat being level 1.

One could argue that the town is equal in height to the hills thereby blocking line of sight. We are talking towns and villages, not the cities of today with the highrise buildings.

      
Brett
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Re:Line of Sight Question Wed, 23 June 2004 04:55
Unless you're adjacent to another hill, firing via Hill Open Hill, you're still firing at -1. This is something we went back and forth on while playtesting it. As it stands, if you're firing at a hill that you're not adjacent to, its at -1. Even if you're on a hill yourself. This represents being hull down, or amongst the rocks etc.


Sorry for the double post!

[Updated on: Wed, 23 June 2004 04:58]

      
Brett
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Re:Line of Sight Question Wed, 23 June 2004 04:57
Unless you're adjacent to another hill, firing via Hill Open Hill, you're still firing at -1. This is something we went back and forth on while playtesting it. As it stands, if you're firing at a hill that you're not adjacent to, its at -1. Even if you're on a hill yourself. This represents being hull down, or amongst the rocks etc.


And keep in mind, that hill might be 10-15' tall. A town would certainly block line of sight, as you're not firing through/over a town with even single story buildings.
      
Brummbar44
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Re:Line of Sight Question Wed, 23 June 2004 05:25
the rules on hill fighting seem pretty clear about the -1 modifier.

"when battling a unit at the same height as your unit, there is no battle dice reduction."

[Updated on: Wed, 23 June 2004 05:26]

      
inquisitor
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Re:Line of Sight Question Wed, 23 June 2004 07:15
Brett, I don't understand, the rules say that the hill confers a -1 only when a unit is firing from a lower position, it also states " When battling an enemy unit at the same height as your unit, there is no battle dice reduction".

Two units on hills with open terrain between would still be on the same height, therefore they get no dice reduction.

As for the hills being 10-15 feet high, where does that come from. As I stated no levels or size are stated, so one can assume whatever size they wish. I could show you many cities and villages that have hill tops on opposing sides and the city would not block line of sight.

"Hill: a smaller version of a mountain with a rounded top; 1000 ft from the top to bottom of the hill slope is often used as the superficial distinction between a hill and mountain"

If one goes by the letter of the rule, then towns block line of sight.
      
Krieghund
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Re:Line of Sight Question Wed, 23 June 2004 19:30
Wow, looks like I opened a real can of worms here! Confused After all this discussion, I can see opinion is divided. Now I am even more curious to hear an "official" answer.
      
wayner2d2
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Re:Line of Sight Question Wed, 23 June 2004 21:48
Shame on you Shocked opening up a can o worms like that. This forum was going along good until you.... just kidding. The FAQ can't be to far away. This subject should get some space in that document.
      
gt8595b
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Re:Line of Sight Question Wed, 23 June 2004 22:00
this discussion is leading to depths that endanger the beautiful abstraction of m44. its a game of multiple scales from platoon to brigade (or whatever it is) and here we are discussing ten to fifteen feet increments . this question definetely needs mr. borg.
      
wayner2d2
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Re:Line of Sight Question Wed, 23 June 2004 23:41
i think that for some it is ASL withdrwl or something like that.
      
BloodyBucket
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Re:Line of Sight Question Thu, 24 June 2004 09:25
I smell house rules coming...

My bet is on any blocking terrain still blocks LOS between non adjacent hills, in the forthcoming FAQ. I think that anybody who wants specific nonblocking blocking terrain will houserule it or special rule it in a scenario design.

That would leave the base game simple, and allow for specific scenarios to make "taking the hill" more important tacticaly.
      
    
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