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mikebrn
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October 2003
Hills and LOS Thu, 01 July 2004 14:20
Can I just check my understanding of Hills/Line of Sight.

Am I correct in my belief that units on hills cannot see ‘over’ intervening terrain into hex/hexes beyond? Can a unit on a hill see over intervening blocking terrain (eg, a town) if the other hex it wants to shoot at is also on a hill?

Additionally, my understanding is that a unit on a hill can see a unit on another hill hex if it is not part of the same hill but cannot see through it into another hill hex attached. Ie, a unit on a hill can see through a hill hex to another hill hex if they are all part of the SAME hill (plateau effect) but if it is part of a different hill then the first hill hex blocks LOS even though all are at same height?

Have I explained this clearly enough? I know what I mean but I am beginning to doubt anyone else will!!!!

MIKE
      
Krieghund
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Re:Hills and LOS Thu, 01 July 2004 14:50
FYI - previous thread on the same question:

Line of Sight Question

No official answer has been given yet.
      
Bilben04
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Re:Hills and LOS Thu, 01 July 2004 15:40
I'd consider the rulebook an "official answer"! Laughing

Honestly, I think people get confused trying to relate "real world" situations to the rules of a simple, abstract board game. It's really so straightforward. If there is blocking terrain of any kind in hexes between the firer and target (infantry or armor) then LOS is blocked, except in one special case where both units are on hills and every hex between them that the LOS crosses is a hill hex too.
      
Krieghund
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Re:Hills and LOS Thu, 01 July 2004 16:05
And I'd consider that Eric's response of "Richard Borg is out to Origins until the end of the week, and the questions here are varied and tricky enough that I would rather wait before giving a definitive answer. more info soon," would indicate that no official answer has been given yet.

Though I suspect you may be correct, Bilben.
      
Bilben04
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Re:Hills and LOS Thu, 01 July 2004 16:34
Krieghund, that first sentence was meant as a joke -- a cheeky reference to the earlier thread to which you posted the link.

I guess it's an expression of an attitude I've developed from many years of participation in forums and email groups regarding wargaming rules. So many times I've seen folks demanding FAQs and official rulings from authors largely because they have a favorite way of doing things and want an "official" blessing put on their version of play. As opposed to having a genuine inability to understand what the rules mean. So I tend to look on calls for official rulings with a jaundiced eye.

And I'm not saying that applies in this case. Though I find it easy to follow, it does seem that enough people are having trouble understanding the LOS rules with regard to hills that some clarification in the FAQ would be helpful.
      
wayner2d2
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Re:Hills and LOS Thu, 01 July 2004 16:36
Bilben is on the money. The same hill(all attached hill hexes)does not block LOS. Targeting from a hill hex through a town hex to another hill hex does have LOS blocked.
      
AnglePark
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Re:Hills and LOS Thu, 01 July 2004 16:40
I usually try to stay out of these things, but I'm sticking my big foot in the door... be nice...

I hope I can explain it correctly...

First and foremost, remember, you ALWAYS have LOS (and can attack) into a hex that blocks LOS as long as there are no blocking hexes in between.

The reason the rules give you the "plateau" explanation is because hills are the only type of terrain that doesn't block LOS when they are in a "chain," or part of the same larger "hill."

For instance - if you have three woods hexes in a line (1-2-3), and opposing units in hexes 1 and 3, the hex in the middle blocks LOS. Just because they are all part of the same "woods" doesn't mean you can look through them. Hills, however, when in a chain are the ONLY exception. Using the same example (hills 1-2-3, with units on 1 and 3), the hill hex in the middle (even though it would normally block LOS if trying to "look over the hill" to a hex beyond) doesn't because it's part of the "same hill." It's simply trying to tell you that you don't have to "look over" the hex in the middle.

In the earlier debate, two hills with a clear hex in the middle, LOS is NOT blocked between the hills. You can ALWAYS fire into a hex that blocks LOS.

I hope this helps (and should be correct, but I've been proven wrong on many occasions!).

-AP
      
AnglePark
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Re:Hills and LOS Thu, 01 July 2004 16:43
Egads - I guess I could have explained it in simpler terms, like you other guys, and got my post up sooner. Embarassed

Sorry for the long-winded examples...

-AP
      
Brummbar44
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Re:Hills and LOS Thu, 01 July 2004 16:49
But the book isn't clear at all! That's why people look for FAQ's

All of the LOS examples in the book show units on the flat ground (same level) In this case the LOS makes obvious sense. When you elevate that level then those examples don't necessarily apply.

Now it may be that the LOS is in fact blocked and that is the way they intended it (this would be the first wargame I've played that would consider that...and I've played a few) But if that is the case, it should have been explained in the book, as it is counter-intuitive and leads to debates such as these.
      
Krieghund
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Re:Hills and LOS Thu, 01 July 2004 16:50
Bilben04 wrote on Thu, 01 July 2004 10:34

Krieghund, that first sentence was meant as a joke -- a cheeky reference to the earlier thread to which you posted the link.

I guess it's an expression of an attitude I've developed from many years of participation in forums and email groups regarding wargaming rules. So many times I've seen folks demanding FAQs and official rulings from authors largely because they have a favorite way of doing things and want an "official" blessing put on their version of play. As opposed to having a genuine inability to understand what the rules mean. So I tend to look on calls for official rulings with a jaundiced eye.

And I'm not saying that applies in this case. Though I find it easy to follow, it does seem that enough people are having trouble understanding the LOS rules with regard to hills that some clarification in the FAQ would be helpful.


No offense taken, Bilben. I understand your "attitude" completely, since I've seen the same "blessing seeking" myself. I was not really expecting the quantity of responses on this issue that I got (and continue to get). As you have pointed out, the fact that both sides are being argued passionately does indicate that the rules are at least a little vague on the subject.

You may put me firmly in the camp of those seeking to understand and follow the intent of the designers. (At least until I make a house rule to contrary. Laughing )
      
AnglePark
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Re:Hills and LOS Thu, 01 July 2004 16:52
Brummbar,

I agree completely that the rules for hills could have been written more clearly. One or two more sentences, and a different or additional example, would have helped a lot!

-AP

[Updated on: Thu, 01 July 2004 16:52]

      
Krieghund
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Re:Hills and LOS Thu, 01 July 2004 16:56
I must say, though, that if this is the best "complaint" we can muster, the rules are very well written indeed!
      
AnglePark
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Re:Hills and LOS Thu, 01 July 2004 17:04
Krieghund,

Again - I agree completely. I think the rules are very nice, and I'll take them any day over most wargames! Shocked

I remember my ASL days, and I don't miss the "debates" at all. In fact, that's one of the reasons I got out of wargaming for a while. It's my favorite hobby, but milling over rules can sure ruin the fun.

So far we've had nothing but good times from M44, and I don't think that will change!

-AP
      
Brummbar44
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Re:Hills and LOS Thu, 01 July 2004 17:27
Don't get me wrong. Memoir'44 is shear brilliance in every aspect of it's design. It's rules are very clear and concise, this is the only exception. And like Krieghund pointed out, if this is the only major debate that's goes to show how good the rules were written.

      
oivind22
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May 2004
Re:Hills and LOS Thu, 01 July 2004 20:52
Speaking of hills and LOS, I've started using the following house rule: A unit on a hill ignores adjacent units not on a hill for LOS purposes. Likewise, if the target is on a hill units adjacent to the target and not on a hill are also ignored for LOS purposes.

This also means that if both the firing unit and the target is on a hill, all units not on a hill are ignored (but the terrain they are in is not, of course).
      
underling
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June 2004
Re:Hills and LOS Fri, 02 July 2004 03:07
Maybe it's my wargaming background, but the rules for hills seem fairly straightforward. I think the rules adequately cover 'em.
Kevin
      
BloodyBucket
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Re:Hills and LOS Fri, 09 July 2004 09:16
After reading all the threads, I think that the following examples are correct:

HOH (Hill Open Hill) units on each hill, LOS not blocked, fire with no modifier.

HOhOH (Hill Open hedgerow Open Hill) units on each hill, LOS blocked. This seems to be very abstract, but that is what the rules seem to indicate.

HHH (Hill Hill Hill) Units on the two Hills furthest apart, LOS not blocked, fire with no modifier.

HOHOH (Hill Open Hill Open Hill) Units on the two Hills furthest apart, LOS blocked.

HOOOUH (Hill Open Open Open Unit Hill) units on each hill, four open hexes between with a unit in any of the four open hexes, LOS between Hills blocked, LOS from Hills to unit in Open not blocked, unit in Open battles units on hills with -1 modifier.

Artillery ignores LOS restrictions.

While this is not what I'm used to from other tactical wargames where LOS rules were more "realistic" at the expense of being a royal pain in the tush, it seems to be the case in the present rules.

Lastly,

HOHOHOhOHOhO (Hill Open Hill Open Hill Open hedgerow Open Hill Open hedgerow Open) LOS doesn't matter, it's just Santa Claus coming with a Medics and Mechanics card when you really need it, because you've been good all year.
      
    
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