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scdit46
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  Is Memoir 44 a wargame? Sat, 22 December 2007 22:55
Is Memoir 44 a wargame?

And if the answer is not then what is the reason?
      
ColtsFan76
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Re:Is Memoir 44 a wargame? Sat, 22 December 2007 23:57
It is a game about war. So most definitely it is a wargame.

Some of the old Avalon Hill diehards may argue because the hexes are too big and the rule book too small. But those are grumpy old men best left alone anyway.

But for their benefit (since some reside here as well Wink ), we shall call it a "light wargame" and leave it at that.
      
silentshadow
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Re:Is Memoir 44 a wargame? Sun, 23 December 2007 00:07
I'm with ColtsFan on "light," and it's absolutely a war game. The system may not appeal to everyone, but the mechanics of the game make wargaming more accessible to gamers who have never pushed miniatures, little cardboard chits, or unit tiles around a table map for two to three days, weekends, months, or years even, just to recreate individual battles of long campaigns.

ss
      
Old Dwarf
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Re:Is Memoir 44 a wargame? Sun, 23 December 2007 09:12
I'm a grumpy old & yes its a war game,at my
age the big hexes come in handy Laughing
      
surigaostriat
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Re:Is Memoir 44 a wargame? Mon, 24 December 2007 06:42
I'm a grumpy old & no it is not a war game, not even light. Very fun though.
      
rasmussen81
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Re:Is Memoir 44 a wargame? Mon, 24 December 2007 07:20
player308033 wrote on Sun, 23 December 2007 21:42

I'm a grumpy old & no it is not a war game, not even light. Very fun though.


How do you figure that?! Shocked The 'not a war game' part, not the fun part. Smile
      
Stavka227
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Re:Is Memoir 44 a wargame? Mon, 24 December 2007 11:37
I can see why people would say it's not a wargame. Me, I don't like wargames, but I like M44. I'd say it's more of a strategy game - but then again I tend to prefer scenarios where it's not skewed horribly in favour of one side or another in order to reflect history.
      
labalbi
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Re:Is Memoir 44 a wargame? Mon, 24 December 2007 15:05
If M44 is not a wargame I dont know whats is.
You have historical background scenarios , tanks, infantry and whatever we already know ...

Ok...for those who consider wargame only thoses with 49581218320340 counters , 3934502348023480 rules , a board with 34393938 hexes ...maybe M44 is not a wargame .


But, for those people I would recommend enlist in the Army and get on praticse some war exercices like many armys around the world performe often .

For me , M44 is a light wargame . The best in its class. Very Happy
      
ColtsFan76
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Re:Is Memoir 44 a wargame? Mon, 24 December 2007 17:10
player308033 wrote on Sun, 23 December 2007 23:42

I'm a grumpy old & no it is not a war game, not even light. Very fun though.

I warned you of old curmudgeons who lurk around here, didn't I?

lol Very Happy
      
Whiterook
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Re:Is Memoir 44 a wargame? Mon, 24 December 2007 18:11
ColtsFan76 wrote on Sat, 22 December 2007 17:57

It is a game about war. So most definitely it is a wargame.

Some of the old Avalon Hill diehards may argue because the hexes are too big and the rule book too small. But those are grumpy old men best left alone anyway.

But for their benefit (since some reside here as well Wink ), we shall call it a "light wargame" and leave it at that.



THAT is one of the BEST answers on a Forum I have read yet!!!! Very Happy Very Happy Very Happy Very Happy Very Happy Very Happy Very Happy

It is most certainly a wargame. It may be "light", and I think that's a very apt way to describe it, but therein lies the beauty of the game system....it makes it all the more accessible to new gamers, and light gamers. I think people who play games, from M44 to Avalon Hill's grognard level, are gamers; and M44 is about WWII which classifies it in my mind as a wargame.

To a 20 year old college girl, I may be considered old; to my wife, I can appear grumpy; and I am most certainly a grognard, and Avalon Hill devote (and Victory Games, Panzer Grenadier, Lock 'N Load, Avalanche Press, etc. etc. etc.)....but as such, I give M44 VERY high marks and wargame status, big hexes or not!

You 'da Man ColtsFan76!!!!

[Updated on: Mon, 24 December 2007 18:14]

      
Taylor
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Re:Is Memoir 44 a wargame? Mon, 24 December 2007 19:15
Definatly a wargame to me.
OK it isn't the same as a good old SPI or Avalon Hill and not the same as a typical figure scenery, tape measures and rulebook(s) game but I would classify it as a wargame. I like the phrase a light wargame.

L8R's
T
      
clexton27
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Re:Is Memoir 44 a wargame? Mon, 24 December 2007 19:53
Merry Christmas one and all!
Hands down an excellent wargame and exceptional in the aspect that it serves as a great introduction to those who might otherwise avoid a "wargame". I am thinking particularly of children and middleschoolers who can get into the joy of learning about WWII history and also acknowledge the valor, fidelity and sacrifice of those who fought. Not to mention, the enjoyment and fun of playing a game without too much complexity. Memoir is a great teaching tool.
      
AnglePark
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Re:Is Memoir 44 a wargame? Mon, 24 December 2007 21:16
Yes, most definitely, M44 is a wargame. It has tanks, soldiers, big guns, and now aircraft - all implements of war - and they move about and shoot at each other.

I grew up playing the old Avalon Hill wargames, and M44 is far more accessible and fun - IMHO. I thoroughly enjoy it.

There's no going back for me...
      
silentshadow
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Re:Is Memoir 44 a wargame? Mon, 24 December 2007 21:39
AnglePark wrote on Mon, 24 December 2007 14:16

There's no going back for me...


The only way I'd go back to all those old chit and AH bookshelf games is if they made them into games with bigger hexes, actual playing pieces that look like units, and simplified combat systems that retain replayability... Oh, wait... I'm in luck!

ss

      
AK_Aramis
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Re:Is Memoir 44 a wargame? Mon, 24 December 2007 22:58
Lets see:
Theme=war
actions=attacks
has a system of rules
has victory conditions.

Yup it's a wargame!
Rule-light, visually pretty, and those hex-and-counter nazis can just go spill a beverage...

I like my hex and counter... I was playing Mayday just last week, and Snapshot the week before....
      
yangtze
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Re:Is Memoir 44 a wargame? Tue, 25 December 2007 09:49
The trouble with words is they mean different things to different people! I'm an old grognard too, but I'm not grumpy. I don't mind what people call M44. I've called it a wargame, but if I were pushed to be more precise I think I'd call it a 'game with a war theme', rather than a wargame.

I think a wargame does have, as previously suggested, more hexes, pieces and rules along the lines of the SPI and AH classics, and the stuff GMT and others are putting out now. So if you describe M44 a wargame to someone who hasn't played it before, that's what they might reasonably expect, and that wouldn't be right. M44 is more a wargame/ Eurogame hybrid. (Eurogame, precious? What's a Eurogame?)

Again, being Devil's advocate, I'm not sure I like the 'lite' tag either. If lite means quick and easy to set up and play, then it's lite. However, if lite means it's intellectually less challenging, less complex, historically less rigorous, and less satisfying, then I'd have to disagree.

Another view of complexity is more to do with the number of decisions required than the size of the rulebook. A wargame like Panzer Leader is often on rails, despite the number of counters, hexes, and the size of the rulebook. You find yourself with only one sensible strategy and then it's just a question of not making a mistake in positioning, which takes a long time for little return in terms of enjoyment.

With M44 you are constantly challenged by an evolving hand of cards, and fog of war provided by your opponent's hand. The interaction of your hand with the forces at your disposal provides for many difficult decisions, and so in some ways M44 is more complex in that respect than many 'wargames'.

[Updated on: Tue, 25 December 2007 09:50]

      
Old Dwarf
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Re:Is Memoir 44 a wargame? Tue, 25 December 2007 16:05
surigaostriat wrote on Mon, 24 December 2007 00:42

I'm a grumpy old & no it is not a war game, not even light. Very fun though.


Well I'm grumpier & older :lol:& I don't see how you can't
call it a war game.Your refighting WWII with historical forces
its not Tiddly Winks.You can debate the depth & level of abstraction but its obviously a war game.

Right now we're using Avon Hills D Day as a stragetic
base game & fighting the battles using Memoir 44
      
ColtsFan76
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Re:Is Memoir 44 a wargame? Tue, 25 December 2007 16:07
As yangtze pionts out, words can mean different things to different people.

I do not think it is just a "game with a war theme." Because that can be said of any wargame. Really, all wargames are boiled down to abstract concepts of war.

What should be done is define what is a wargame and see if Memoir 44 fits the bill. I am no grognard though I try to play one on TV. I didn't game much when Avalon Hill was in its heydey so I can't even really compare it to anything in my experience.

But it seems to me that a war game has to have Units. The units have to certain attributes. Special rules have to be inserted into the game to give nations certain characterisitcs. There have to be clear objectives. Memoir fits all of these.

What it is missing is all the complex rules like interception, zone of control, attrition. These seem to be things I am finding in other games I am venturing into that are less light than Memoir. But are these defining qualities of a wargame? Is this what sets wargames apart from boardgames? I don't think so. I think it just defines the level of wargame.

Calling Memoir 44 "light" is not a knock. To me, "light" means "accessible." Can a non-gamer pick it up quickly? Are the rule sintuitive and straightforward? To me, Chess is "accessible." You have only six pieces to memorize: how they move and how they capture another piece. There is a little bit of explanantion needed on how to end the game. And a quick explanation of how pawns can free captured pieces. And that's it. A real simple game to learn. And incredibly difficult game to master.
      
yangtze
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Re:Is Memoir 44 a wargame? Tue, 25 December 2007 16:38
Oh and we haven't mentioned luck yet. Some people knock M44 because it's 'too luck dependant'. Ok, the dice can mess you about for sure, but a healthy injection of probability provides more oportunities for interesting decision-making and risk-taking. I do enjoy games that require a cool head in a crisis, and when you roll 4 inf against a single-figure armour unit, or have a hand full of left section cards when you just need a Recon on the right, you're deep into crisis management. Nice Wink

Just because a game has no dice doesn't mean there's no luck involved of course. We've all played chess, made a move, then immediately seen it was a mistake. But will your opponent? Maybe they would see the killer move 7 times out of 10? You're not rolling dice, but you might get lucky...

'Wargames' are supposedly less luck dependant, but they can be more so than a game like M44 simply because there a fewer critical rolls, and so one bad roll can lose you the game. The sheer quantity of dice rolling in M44 (and even more so in C&C Ancients) tends to even out that kind of luck factor.

[Updated on: Tue, 25 December 2007 16:40]

      
Whiterook
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Re:Is Memoir 44 a wargame? Mon, 31 December 2007 18:32
Good discussion gentlemen. Fine points from many different perspectives.

I'm a chit-pusher, and slog through endless pages of ASL rules-anality, and love every moment of it; I push little miniature tanks and infantry that cost WAY TOO MUCH, around battlefields to a rules system a lot less advanced than Avalon Hill-esque wargames; and I push smaller minis around our beloved boards of Memoir '44, and currently place M44 at the very top of my wargaming list. I guess it really comes down to, to each their own...and interpretation.
      
silentshadow
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Re:Is Memoir 44 a wargame? Tue, 01 January 2008 16:32
Whiterook wrote on Mon, 31 December 2007 11:32

I guess it really comes down to, to each their own...and interpretation.


Well said, well spoken, Whiterook.

Advanced Squad Leader has its own place on the wargame table, too. That place is just a little dusty for me lately. Confused

ss
      
    
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