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Bobagabe
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June 2004
Taking ground into hedgerows? Sat, 10 July 2004 19:19
I am sure this has been discussed but I can't seam to find it.

Here is the situation:

I move my unit adjacent to an enemy in a hedgerow. I attack. He retreats.

Can I take ground into the hedgerow?

The unit didn't start the turn adjacent to the hedgerow. So, I don't think I can take ground but I thought I would check with you guys.
      
BloodyBucket
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Re:Taking ground into hedgerows? Sat, 10 July 2004 21:47
Good question. My guess would be you could advance into the hedgerow, but I don't have any rule to back that up in front of me.
      
magicm
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  Re:Taking ground into hedgerows? Sat, 10 July 2004 21:48
I think thats right.You must start this turn next to that hedgerow without moving, than battle and take ground.

[Updated on: Sat, 10 July 2004 21:51]

      
Benji
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Re:Taking ground into hedgerows? Sat, 10 July 2004 21:57
Well - the wording of the hedgerow rule is pretty bad. It says you need to be adjacent to the hedgerow hex to move onto it. But that's true for ANY hex - you aleways need to be adjacent to it before you can move into it. I guess what the rule should say is that you need to be adjacent to the hedgerow at the start of the turn. In this case, you couldn't take ground into it if you were not adjacent.
      
jerrytel
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Re:Taking ground into hedgerows? Sat, 10 July 2004 22:12
From the FAQ...

Q. If an armor unit successfully Close Assaults a unit in Woods (or Hedgerows or Town) and Takes Ground, can it perform Overrun Combat, or does the terrain prevent it?
A. An armor unit that successfully Close Assaults a unit on a Hedgerow hex may Take Ground only if it started adjacent to the Hedgerow hex. If it did start adjacent, it may Take Ground but it may not battle per terrain rules.

Seems to me that this would be the same for either Infantry or Armor...

      
BloodyBucket
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Re:Taking ground into hedgerows? Sat, 10 July 2004 22:32
Good point. I once again have to change my mind, something I find myself doing a lot. There is a lot in M44 that is so different, or straightfoward, compared to my old school mega wargames that it presents problems to doddering old nitwits like myself. Laughing
      
inquisitor
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June 2004
Re:Taking ground into hedgerows? Sat, 10 July 2004 23:41
“Well - the wording of the hedgerow rule is pretty bad. It says you need to be adjacent to the hedgerow hex to move onto it. But that's true for ANY hex - you aleways need to be adjacent to it before you can move into it. “

Sorry, but I have to disagree the wording is fine. All one has to do is read it and look at the explanation on the upper right corner to completely understand if there is any confusion.

If you read the other descriptions they don’t say anything about being adjacent. Your argument that one has to be adjacent to any hex before moving in smacks of ”Rules lawyer” type logic.

Please don’t take any offense, I am not attacking anyone, I am just disagreeing that the rule is poorly written and explained.

Just my two cents
      
boombob
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Re:Taking ground into hedgerows? Sun, 11 July 2004 00:21
Since the Battle rules do not delineate whether you can or cannot enter certain terrain after a successful Close Assault (except, of course, impassable terrain), I would think that you COULD take the Hedgerow hex. If not, wouldn't you run into a situation where the defender could merely keep feeding units into the hedgerow hex that could NOT be advanced into by a successful attacker? That would seem to make the Hedgerow almost too powerful a defensive terrain.
      
jerrytel
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Re:Taking ground into hedgerows? Sun, 11 July 2004 00:29
If your unit started its turn next to the hedgerow, than it can take ground.
      
caroper
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April 2004
Re:Taking ground into hedgerows? Sun, 11 July 2004 01:22
player22499 wrote on Sun, 11 July 2004 00:21

If not, wouldn't you run into a situation where the defender could merely keep feeding units into the hedgerow hex that could NOT be advanced into by a successful attacker?



That is exactly what happened in real life. The Americans progress through the bocage country was extremely slow and very costly, until one of the engineers modified his tanks with "Teeth" to cut through without having to expose the tanks underside.
      
Benji
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Re:Taking ground into hedgerows? Sun, 11 July 2004 09:26
inquisitor wrote on Sat, 10 July 2004 23:41

Sorry, but I have to disagree the wording is fine. All one has to do is read it and look at the explanation on the upper right corner to completely understand if there is any confusion.

If you read the other descriptions they don’t say anything about being adjacent. Your argument that one has to be adjacent to any hex before moving in smacks of ”Rules lawyer” type logic.

Please don’t take any offense, I am not attacking anyone, I am just disagreeing that the rule is poorly written and explained.

Just my two cents



But it wouldn't have ben difficult to at "at the start of the turn" to the sentence in the rule book. That way, it wouldn't have been necessary to include it into the FAQ. It would also make it clear that you can't "take ground" if you didn't start the turn adjacent - which ist obviously not clear right now.

What I meant about being adjacent to any hex was that you usually move a unit hex by hex. So before you move it into a woods hex two spaces away, you first need to move it into the open hex between your starting position and the woods. Hence - you start always adjacent to the next hex you are moving into.

[Updated on: Sun, 11 July 2004 09:46]

      
jerrytel
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Re:Taking ground into hedgerows? Sun, 11 July 2004 11:26
In a perfect world, the playtesters catch EVERYTHING and all questions are answered in the printed rulebook - alas, if that was the case, we would be flooded by only posts from people who are just not content to play the darn game and eternally looking for ways to improve it... Smile
      
wayner2d2
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Re:Taking ground into hedgerows? Sun, 11 July 2004 14:09
i found the rules as written to be pretty clear. For takeing ground, terrain restictions apply.
      
inquisitor
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June 2004
Re:Taking ground into hedgerows? Sun, 11 July 2004 20:15
That is were we disagree Very Happy, it is clear as written and only a rules lawyer would attempt to argue otherwise. This is the problem with all games, someone always wants to read something into something because it did not spell it out completely.

I have been gaming for over 40+ years and have seen this happen time and again, and nothing will every stop it.

I am sorry but I have said all I am going to say on this subject. Smile

As a rules set this game was very well written and the explanations that are in the rulebook explain the movement and hedgerows quiet clearly. I just feel that we don’t need to keep adding things like this (Things that have been explained in the rule book in very detailed pictures) to the FAQ.

Movement into the hedgerow after a close assault I can understand, and I believe that this was answered in the FAQ already.

“Q. If an armor unit successfully Close Assaults a unit in Woods (or Hedgerows or Town) and Takes Ground, can it perform Overrun Combat, or does the terrain prevent it?

A. An armor unit that successfully Close Assaults a unit on a Forest or Town hex may Take Ground, but it may not battle, per terrain rules.

B. An armor unit that successfully Close Assaults a unit on a Hedgerow hex may Take Ground only if it started adjacent to the Hedgerow hex. If it did start adjacent, it may Take Ground but it may not battle per terrain rules. “

Happy gaming and I do like your scenarios, you have done some good work on them.
      
Benji
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Re:Taking ground into hedgerows? Sun, 11 July 2004 21:35
And I don't see why writing "To move into a Hedgerow hex, a unit must start the turn adjacent to the hedgerow hex" insted of "... be adjacent to the hedgerow hex" would make the rules more complicated, while it would also answer the question about taking ground.

But let's agree to disagree...

Have fun with my (and other) scenarios.
      
ekted
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Re:Taking ground into hedgerows? Sun, 11 July 2004 22:07
I agree Benji. Although you can never make rules such that no one will ever have a question, it IS in the best interest of the designer and the consumer that they be as free from ambiguity as possible. This absolutely requires that the final rules be presented to lots of people who have never seen the game in order to flush out wording that may be clear to those who already know how to play, but very unclear to a new player.

In the above example, I think a sentence like "Movement rules always take precedence over Close Assault or Armor Overrun where they are in conflict" would have helped. And of course lots more examples with complex movement/card/terrain/obstacle features involved.
      
    
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