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Brummbar44
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Ladder - Air Rules Questions Tue, 09 September 2008 03:00
As we head into the next round, I believe we are playing a scenario that includes the Air Pack.

Some of the players may be new to the Air Pack and may have some questions. It is the intent of this thread to post and reply and hopefully keep things moving along smoothly.

So if there are any questions, please post them here and any one of the more experienced players will be happy to answer.

Good luck into the next round and happy gaming.
      
tank commander
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Re:Ladder - Air Rules Questions Tue, 09 September 2008 22:39
Alright I have one that I will post right now (and I am working on a few others).

Pg 3 - under "Air Sortie" - 2nd paragraph - last sentence

"Edge hexes are all the full (not half hexes)that border the entire game board's four sides."

Pg 4 - under Playing an Air Sortie equivalent - text on board insert - 2nd sentence

"The Airplane must make it's entry onto the battlefield through one of the edge hexes highlighted above."

There are four hexes which are not highlighted but that meet the description of "edge hexes" under the "Air Sortie" section.

Why the discrepancy?



[Updated on: Wed, 10 September 2008 00:15]

      
Brummbar44
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Re:Ladder - Air Rules Questions Tue, 09 September 2008 22:59
tank commander wrote on Tue, 09 September 2008 13:39

Alright I have one that I will post right now (and I am working on a few others).

Pg 3 - under "Air Sortie" - 2nd paragraph - last sentence

"Edge hexes are all the full (not half hexes that border the entire game board's four side."

Pg 4 - under Playing an Air Sortie equivalent - text on board insert - 2nd sentence

"The Airplane must make it's entry onto the battlefield through one of the edge hexes highlighted above."

There are four hexes which are highlighted but that meet the description of "edge hexes" under the "Air Sortie" section.

Why the discrepancy?


I'm not sure I understand the question?

What page 3 is saying is that the half-hexes are not eligible for entry. Page 4 is illustrating exactly which hexes are eligible for entry. In the illustration, it highlights the ineligibility of the half-hexes.

Which has actually just made me realize that the hexes adjacent to the half hexes are not legitimate entry hexes!
Shocked

Hmmm...I never looked at those in that light before.

So instead of answering a question...I have learned something instead! LOL!

Sorry...does that help?
      
ColtsFan76
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Re:Ladder - Air Rules Questions Tue, 09 September 2008 23:01
There is no discrepancy. The four hexes (which are NOT highlighted I assume you to mean) are not on the edge. You have to be on the board edge and a full hex. While those 4 hexes are full hexes, they don't meet the 2nd requirement.
      
Brummbar44
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Re:Ladder - Air Rules Questions Tue, 09 September 2008 23:14
ColtsFan76 wrote on Tue, 09 September 2008 14:01

There is no discrepancy. The four hexes (which are NOT highlighted I assume you to mean) are not on the edge. You have to be on the board edge and a full hex. While those 4 hexes are full hexes, they don't meet the 2nd requirement.


Much better said. Thanks CF
      
tank commander
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Re:Ladder - Air Rules Questions Wed, 10 September 2008 00:24
I think what I was reasoning was that the 1/2 hexes are not playable. So, the full hexes next to them are on the playing board's edge (which is different than the "game board's edge").

So what I thought what the rules stated in one section was contradicted in another.

Speaking of the 1/2 hexes, I was looking for them in the rules and could not find them listed. I know they are in essence, not part of the playing surface and you cannot trace LOS through them.
      
rasmussen81
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Re:Ladder - Air Rules Questions Wed, 10 September 2008 00:55
tank commander wrote on Tue, 09 September 2008 15:24


Speaking of the 1/2 hexes, I was looking for them in the rules and could not find them listed. I know they are in essence, not part of the playing surface and you cannot trace LOS through them.


I think I know what you're saying here about not tracing LOS through them... If there is LOS blocking terrain against the half-hex, then a unit's LOS is blocked because the half-hex is not part of the playing surface. But if there is no terrain in the way, a unit can see along the side. Is that what you mean, TC? Rolling Eyes If so, I agree completely and I bow to your insight! Laughing
      
Zasdert Ultun
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Re:Ladder - Air Rules Questions Thu, 11 September 2008 00:37
Thats the one problem with hexes as opposed to squares, you get half hexes. Otherwise, hexes rule! Very Happy

[Updated on: Thu, 11 September 2008 00:37]

      
tank commander
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Re:Ladder - Air Rules Questions Tue, 23 September 2008 01:16
OK, I just wished to confirm this.

From the rulebook:

In addition, when Air Rules are in effect, Air Power cards
must be played as if they were Air Sortie cards instead;
And
cards that are deemed equivalent by the Scenario's Special
rules - such as a Recon 1 card when Air Strikes & Blitz rules are
in effect -, may be played, at the player's option, as indicated
on the card (e.g. a Recon 1) OR as an Air Sortie card instead.
Unlike true Air Sortie cards, these cards are never placed
face up nor shown to the other player beforehand; they can
never be played in combination with a Section card; and
they are replaced as normal, once played, at the end of the
player's turn.
If the card played as an Air Sortie is a Recon 1 card (as might
be the case for an Axis player under Air Strikes & Blitz rules,
for instance), the player is still subject to the initial card's
Section limitation when playing it; i.e., the card can only be
played to start an Air Sortie from an edge hex of the matching
board's section; and if the Airplane is already airborne, the
card's Recon section must match the section of the board over
which the Airplane is currently loitering.


The bold word section is the one I have a question about. I know the section heading is "Playing an Air Sortie equivalent" and have played as if AIR POWER is affected by the blue worded section just like the Recon 1 Blitz would be.

But now I wonder. Is AIR POWER exactly like an AIR SORTIE in all ways (laid down until used, does not count against hand size and can be played w/ a section card) or not.

Maybe I am wrong but it does seem like the wording can be taken both ways.
      
TommieSL
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Re:Ladder - Air Rules Questions Tue, 23 September 2008 01:32
TC.

Doesn't the 2nd paragraph of that rules extract you cut & pasted, answer your question?...

"Unlike true Air Sortie cards, these cards are never placed
face up nor shown to the other player beforehand; they can
never be played in combination with a Section card; and
they are replaced as normal, once played, at the end of the
player's turn."
      
stevens
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Re:Ladder - Air Rules Questions Tue, 23 September 2008 01:48
I agree with Tommie on this. Only Air Sortie cards are AIR SORTIE cards and are treated as such, the equivalent cards are still the same as before.
      
tank commander
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Re:Ladder - Air Rules Questions Tue, 23 September 2008 11:52
The only reason I brought it up was that it was ruled that way by the WBC GM during the Mem 44 tournament.

So we had to use the Air Power exactly like an Air Sortie.
      
stevens
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Re:Ladder - Air Rules Questions Tue, 23 September 2008 14:44
I retract my last statement. After reading the first paragraph a little closer, I can see why the rule was applied as stated.

Quote:


In addition, when Air Rules are in effect, Air Power cards
must be played as if they were Air Sortie cards instead; And
cards that are deemed equivalent by the Scenario's Special
rules - such as a Recon 1 card



There is a distinction specifically made between AIR POWER cards and other equivalent cards such as a Recon 1.
In this case, the AIR POWER card is virtually an AIR SORTIE card and the equivalent card still acts as an equivalent Air Sortie.
[ The design and imagery on the AIR POWER card is even replicated on the AIR SORTIE card to help make this distinction]

Sorry for waffling on you TommieSL


      
TommieSL
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Re:Ladder - Air Rules Questions Tue, 23 September 2008 15:11
No need to apologise to me, you just have a different interpretation to a given rule - not the first time that's ever happened Wink

I still disagree, by the way. The rules are quite clear (to me) in that the paragraph you have quoted in isolation is immediately followed by a further clarification paragraph (pasted in my note above) which, highlighted in blue bold type in the rulebook clearly states that these cards are NOT placed face up, never shown to your opponent, never played in conjunction with a section card etc etc.

I believe the GM at the WBC was wrong - but it would be good to hear a more official voice on this - perhaps one of the develeopment guys can chip in... Brumm or yangtze, your thoughts?

[Updated on: Tue, 23 September 2008 15:17]

      
ColtsFan76
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Re:Ladder - Air Rules Questions Tue, 23 September 2008 15:50
Air Power is "played" the same way as an Air Sortie but it is not "handled" the same.

When in play, assume the text is the same as an Air Sortie. BUT, it is not handled the same - it stays in your hand, you do not keep it on the table until used, you do not get to draw again, it counts towards your hand size. In other words, it is played like a typical Command card but with changed card text.
      
Caboose
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Re:Ladder - Air Rules Questions Tue, 23 September 2008 18:05
ColtsFan76 wrote on Tue, 23 September 2008 07:50

Air Power is "played" the same way as an Air Sortie but it is not "handled" the same.

When in play, assume the text is the same as an Air Sortie. BUT, it is not handled the same - it stays in your hand, you do not keep it on the table until used, you do not get to draw again, it counts towards your hand size. In other words, it is played like a typical Command card but with changed card text.


Agreed here. Thus

Air Sortie is NOT in your hand and does NOT count toward your hand limit. If you draw one, you DO get to draw another card.

Air Power stays in your hand and DOES count toward your hand limit. If you draw one, you DO NOT get to draw another card.

In regards to the Recon 1 card (and thus acts like Air Power above), is there a specific "official" DoW scenario that allow it to be used as a Air Sortie card ? Just curious since I cannot think of one at this time (or am I misreading something - which wouldn't be the first time I do that, namely so early in the morning). And if there is a scenario, I presume (assuming the scenario states otherwise), you still get to do the other part of Recon 1 (draw 2 command cards and keep 1).

cab


      
TommieSL
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Re:Ladder - Air Rules Questions Tue, 23 September 2008 18:28
Caboose wrote on Tue, 23 September 2008 17:05


In regards to the Recon 1 card (and thus acts like Air Power above), is there a specific "official" DoW scenario that allow it to be used as a Air Sortie card ? Just curious since I cannot think of one at this time (or am I misreading something - which wouldn't be the first time I do that, namely so early in the morning). And if there is a scenario, I presume (assuming the scenario states otherwise), you still get to do the other part of Recon 1 (draw 2 command cards and keep 1).

cab


1 scenario that comes to mind is Counter-attack on Mortain.

Also, any scenario where Blitz Rules are in effect i.e. the Axis player may play a 'Recon' card as an Air Power

You do not draw 2 cards if the Recon is played as the Air Power/Strike/Sortie equivalent

[Updated on: Tue, 23 September 2008 18:30]

      
Brummbar44
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Re:Ladder - Air Rules Questions Wed, 24 September 2008 03:31
TommieSL wrote on Tue, 23 September 2008 06:11

No need to apologise to me, you just have a different interpretation to a given rule - not the first time that's ever happened Wink

I still disagree, by the way. The rules are quite clear (to me) in that the paragraph you have quoted in isolation is immediately followed by a further clarification paragraph (pasted in my note above) which, highlighted in blue bold type in the rulebook clearly states that these cards are NOT placed face up, never shown to your opponent, never played in conjunction with a section card etc etc.

I believe the GM at the WBC was wrong - but it would be good to hear a more official voice on this - perhaps one of the develeopment guys can chip in... Brumm or yangtze, your thoughts?


Spot on TommieSL.

The Air Power, though treated like an Air Sortie is played like a regular Command Card. Sort of like a surprise Air Sortie as it were because your opponent won't see it coming.

Another key difference of the Air Power card is that it can only be played alone unlike an Air Sortie proper which can be coupled with another Command Card.
      
Jesker
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Re:Ladder - Air Rules Questions Sat, 27 September 2008 17:30
THIS IS JESSE. I CAN'T PLAY TODAY
      
    
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