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Caboose
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Re:Problems with Forest Frenzy, Hills Rumble & River Rage Sun, 23 November 2008 23:24
toddrew wrote on Sun, 23 November 2008 09:16

Now I remember why I instituted a self-imposed ban on posting about this part of the game Laughing I tend to get carried away Very Happy


Admit it, you just wanted to get closer to the 1K post club! Smile
      
Alistaja
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Re:Problems with Forest Frenzy, Hills Rumble & River Rage Mon, 24 November 2008 07:07
I had 16 units
So 14 x 4 dice of damage.

I am keen to listen how anyone can keep this card in as it keeps killing our games. I have been playing board games 25 years and this game is good in all standards.

I think in a game like this hills rumble and the rest of the "party spoilers" are giving the too much focus to the "Man of the holy word". There goes always the 3 points of WarCon.

I won the game still, as in the next turn I had some "hot dice action". Attaked from hills with some attack spell on and had 4 Red helmets... and one good attack with the Goblins. So I know the rolls are there if you "can" trow them. Dices are not the problem... Free dices are Wink

Dudes: 56 x (33%) free damage anyone ? Oh.. not free actually- This worst case cost 0.125 lore per dice Wink

Suprice factor is Good in this game. caunter attacks and dispelling. Some nasty "NOOOOOO my horses" - fireball or creepping death to rule em all... but this is a "party spoiler". hehe...

As a house rule: Move one hill for one hex OR take hill avay/level. You can open kill zones for archers or take away some defencive positions or give your units some extra cover.

[Updated on: Mon, 24 November 2008 08:11]

      
yangtze
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Re:Problems with Forest Frenzy, Hills Rumble & River Rage Tue, 25 November 2008 16:25
Remedies:

1. Stay out of the hills/woods if your opponent has a level 3 Cleric and you don't know where the cards are.

2. Don't go into the hills/woods in all 3 sectors at once.

3. Don't choose a Cleric, then your opponent's opportunities for drawing the cards will be diluted.

4. Do something nasty to your opponent while he's saving Lore (I don't mean pour your drink over his head!).

Smile
      
toddrew
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Re:Problems with Forest Frenzy, Hills Rumble & River Rage Wed, 03 December 2008 04:42
yangtze wrote on Tue, 25 November 2008 08:25

Remedies:

1. Stay out of the hills/woods if your opponent has a level 3 Cleric and you don't know where the cards are.


All the points Don makes are the ones I would, but this one is especially important (and applies to all lore card plays as well - moving and attacking in ways to mitigate the impact of potential lore plays is a key to playing the game successfully).

Do not be hasty in making the trees nor hills (and to a lesser degree the river hexes) central to your plan of attack (or defense) until you have something in store to overcome the potentially devestating play of HR or FF. Wait until you hold a dispell card, or better, get your hands on the very HR or FF card and hold onto it yourself before using the terrain extensively in your tactics.

Or, just call the bluff and hope to accomplish what needs to be accomplished before the spell goes off.

Or, enjoy the affect the card has on the game regardless. In your game, I would view what occured as favorable. A rout was on, hope restored to the victim, then cruelly snuffed out. Beautiful Wink
      
Caboose
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Re:Problems with Forest Frenzy, Hills Rumble & River Rage Thu, 04 December 2008 01:00
toddrew wrote on Tue, 02 December 2008 20:42

yangtze wrote on Tue, 25 November 2008 08:25

Remedies:

1. Stay out of the hills/woods if your opponent has a level 3 Cleric and you don't know where the cards are.


All the points Don makes are the ones I would, but this one is especially important (and applies to all lore card plays as well - moving and attacking in ways to mitigate the impact of potential lore plays is a key to playing the game successfully).

Do not be hasty in making the trees nor hills (and to a lesser degree the river hexes) central to your plan of attack (or defense) until you have something in store to overcome the potentially devestating play of HR or FF. Wait until you hold a dispell card, or better, get your hands on the very HR or FF card and hold onto it yourself before using the terrain extensively in your tactics.



But also don't forget that the spell ALSO affects the 6 squares around the appropriate tile as well. On some scenarios, that is like next to impossible to avoid - i.e. one cannot avoid doing so.

Thus the next best case is either have one of the 2 spells that will counter it or better yet - hopefully draw the spell and deny it to the other person.

Sure you can discard it but with the Battlelore command card, all cards will be reshuffled. Sure there is only Battlelore card and the odds are slim it might get played. So thus one COULD discard it knowing there is the possibility the card might get reshuffled back in earlier due to the Battlelore command card.

Lastly, if necessary, you can use DoW's modified way of dealing with the spell card. Sure the effects won't be that devastating. Or if necessary, I guess you can house rule the 2 cards.

Cab

      
toddrew
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Re:Problems with Forest Frenzy, Hills Rumble & River Rage Fri, 05 December 2008 04:56
Caboose wrote on Wed, 03 December 2008 17:00

But also don't forget that the spell ALSO affects the 6 squares around the appropriate tile as well. On some scenarios, that is like next to impossible to avoid - i.e. one cannot avoid doing so.



I think that when some read this tactic of mitigating exposure, they go to the extreme with it and presume that what is being suggested is to completely remove all possible targets from the spell. If that is possible, sure, go for it, but what I am suggesting is to avoid centering ones tactics around those terrain types until the risk is either removed or determined to be acceptable for one to do so. This is possible on the vast majority of boards played.

Many times when facing a level 3 cleric, I intentionally place a few units within harms way in an attempt to trigger the spell, and then shuffle positions to take the ground advantage after the spell's threat has been removed.

To completely dismiss positional tactics such as these is as ridiculous as claiming that they are foolproof. As with most mechanics in this game, there are few absolutes, and the player most adept at adapting to the changing conditions upon the board will be successful in reaching the victory tally first.

[Updated on: Fri, 05 December 2008 05:06]

      
Caboose
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Re:Problems with Forest Frenzy, Hills Rumble & River Rage Mon, 08 December 2008 18:50
Just trying to be a devil's advocate..since there is NO way to avoid all of your units to the spell. Just not possible..except for the River one - depending on where the river is.

There are just too many hills/forests in most of the scenarios to avoid them....

Cab
      
toddrew
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Re:Problems with Forest Frenzy, Hills Rumble & River Rage Wed, 10 December 2008 04:45
Caboose wrote on Mon, 08 December 2008 10:50



There are just too many hills/forests in most of the scenarios to avoid them....




Agincourt: HR and RR are useless; entirely possible to outright avoid, and certainly possible to mitigate the effectiveness of FF

First Chevauchee: entirely possible to outright avoid/certainly possible to mitigate exposure to FF and RR. Difficult to avoid HR, but certainly possible to mitigate exposure to HR.

Burgos, Castille: RR is the one to fear most; followed by HR and then FF, both of which are easy to mitigate against.

Deeper in Castille: With the Hills being prominent in the center of the board, HR would cause problems, but still able to mitigate exposure; FF the next most problematic, followed by RR.

Wizards & Lore: as with most boards, hard to avoid all three terrain types at once, but two of the three on this one could be accomplished, hills being the easiest to mitigate, roughly even for the forest and river.

A Complex Web: Hills the most difficult to contend with due to their promenince in the middle of the center section, and to a lesser extent the middle of the standard left/pennant right. Forest a lesser concern and river little to no concern.

Crisis in Avignon: If the bridge must be held by the standards, FF is a major concern, otherwise all three can be mitigated on this terrain-light board. Again, mitigating all three at the same time would be constricting, but possible.

A Burgundian Chevauchee: This is the board where I've honed most of my Cleric battling skills Smile When playing the pre-set adventure I enjoy taking the pennant side on this one. Difficult to avoid all three terrain types for an extended period of time, but easy enough to do at the beginning while building ones hand for an attack focused wherever the cards reveal to be the wisest choice. If playing Call to Arms, same advantage holds for the pennants as, save for the river, that side of the board is fairly sparse. As the game moves along, HR causes the most consternation, followed by FF and (as usual Smile ) then RR.

Free Companies on a War Footing: This is the adventure where I think the Cleric Spells get their reputation. First off, it is why RR doesn't garner the respect that the other two do, as it is useless here. Constrictive to the point of futility to avoid or even usefully mitigate both forest and hill, a decision must be made early on which of the two to focus the mitigating tactics.

Assaulting the Tourelles: Another terrain rich board, but still opportunity to mitigate two of the three early on, and then decide amongst which to focus ones tactics as the cards reveal themselves.

Two Bridges: If the bridge objective is kept, FF becomes a valuable weapon. Proximity to hills or forest is not a stiff challenge, biding time until the cards reveal themselves is possible.

Crossing the Rhone: RR is the most potent of the three on this one, HR and FF can be dealt with without greatly compromising ones battle plans.

Hill Camp: RR is useless. FF is the one to fear, causing great trouble in the center and standard right/pennant left sections, HR less so, but still to be reckoned with.

West of the Rhone: FF is the only card to give much concern - HR only affecting the far edge of standard right/pennant left and RR being useless. Either avoiding early on until some level of safety is assured, or charging forth with abandon in the hopes of doing enough damage while waiting for a FF remedy (or damning that the card will ever come into play) have a better chance than not of being affective.

Brignais: Similar to Free Companies, yet lighter on the FF potential, a tad heavier on the HR potential. Equivalent RR potential.

Battle of Lewes: HR is the killer here, FF could come in handy (more for pennants than standards - goes for HR too, but to a lesser extent). FF is useless.

[Updated on: Wed, 10 December 2008 05:06]

      
cebalrai
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Re:Problems with Forest Frenzy, Hills Rumble & River Rage Mon, 29 December 2008 05:32
yangtze wrote on Tue, 25 November 2008 10:25

Remedies:

1. Stay out of the hills/woods if your opponent has a level 3 Cleric and you don't know where the cards are.

2. Don't go into the hills/woods in all 3 sectors at once.

3. Don't choose a Cleric, then your opponent's opportunities for drawing the cards will be diluted.

4. Do something nasty to your opponent while he's saving Lore (I don't mean pour your drink over his head!).

Smile


These are all flawed ideas.

1) Stay out of the hills/woods? Okay, then you get hosed big time in battle. Not a feasible strategy. By the way, it's not just in the woods/hills, it's adjacent to them. Each terrain hex gives a large target for the spell.

2) Not sure what you mean.

3) Don't choose a cleric while my opponent does? That cripples me hugely since the cleric is by far the best. Way too much a of a disadvantage to be a feasible strategy.

4) This is a given regardless of the situation, and doesn't specifically counter HR/FF.
      
yangtze
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Re:Problems with Forest Frenzy, Hills Rumble & River Rage Mon, 29 December 2008 15:12
cebalrai wrote on Mon, 29 December 2008 04:32

yangtze wrote on Tue, 25 November 2008 10:25

Remedies:

1. Stay out of the hills/woods if your opponent has a level 3 Cleric and you don't know where the cards are.

2. Don't go into the hills/woods in all 3 sectors at once.

3. Don't choose a Cleric, then your opponent's opportunities for drawing the cards will be diluted.

4. Do something nasty to your opponent while he's saving Lore (I don't mean pour your drink over his head!).

Smile


These are all flawed ideas.

1) Stay out of the hills/woods? Okay, then you get hosed big time in battle. Not a feasible strategy. By the way, it's not just in the woods/hills, it's adjacent to them. Each terrain hex gives a large target for the spell.

2) Not sure what you mean.

3) Don't choose a cleric while my opponent does? That cripples me hugely since the cleric is by far the best. Way too much a of a disadvantage to be a feasible strategy.

4) This is a given regardless of the situation, and doesn't specifically counter HR/FF.



1. That's a bit defeatist. Who gets hosed on a flat battlefield? Could be either player. surely?

2. Sorry, I meant battlefield section. E.g. attack only on the right so you do not endanger your whole army at once.

3. I disagree the Cleric is by far the best. I like the Rogue, but usually I spread my Lore Council. More work needs to be done to see if a level 3 Cleric or Wizard actually is better than level 1 Wizard+Cleric+Rogue, or a level 2 something plus level 1 something else. I'm not convinced.

4. True, but it's especially applicable in this case since the cost is higher. You have longer to hit 'em while they're saving Smile


      
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