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Wildfire2099
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Promotions/Relagations For the League Thu, 22 January 2009 21:21
So, there are a couple choices:


1) Top two move up 1 division, bottom two move down 1.. this way is the easiest and simplest... but has a couple downsides... first, it makes it a long road from the bottom to the top. secondly, It makes it so winning your League isn't particularly special.


2) Winner moves up 2 divisions, 2nd place up 1... last place drops 2 divisions, 2nd to last drops 1. Doing it this way rewards winning more, but would serve to unbalance the # of players in each division. It's likely this could be fixed with new players coming in and what not, but it's still a consideration.

3) #2 can be adjusted slightly.. with an extra person dropping from A to B (so 3 all together) and an extra person gettign promoted from H to G... this allows all the divisions to stay at 8, but I did promise only the top and bottom 2 would move... it also makes it pretty tough to say in the top division.


I'm leaning towards #2.... but I'm willing to be convinced otherwise... thoughts?
      
Zeno
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Re:Promotions/Relagations For the League Thu, 22 January 2009 21:54
Create committee, wildfire as chair, member from France, two from Germany (or one German one Austrian), one International.

Use following rules:

(except for top and bottom divisions)
First must rise relative to third,
Second must rise relative to fourth
Eighth must fall relative to sixth
Seventh must fall relative to fifth

Divisions can be added intermediate to existing divisions.
Newcomers should be placed conservatively.

e.g. 16 new players, 2 new divisions
focus on top four existing divisions, suppose at least eight players join who are at or above that level

A: A1, A2, A3, A4, A5, A6, B1, B2
B: A7, A8, B3, B4, B5, B6, C1, C2
C: N1, N2, N3, C3, C4, C5, C6, D1
D: N4, N5, N6, C7, C8, D2, D3, E1
E: N7, N8, D4, D5, D6, E2, E3, F1

...

Would fit the rules.

Features of this system:
1. Promises relative advancement/relegation, rather than absolute advancement/relegation.
2. Allows for new members to be added at or just below their level of play, rather than absurdly below their level of play (do we really want to start Angel6 in Division I?).
3. Creates flexibility, without compromising fairness.

But

Creates a subjective method, which will offend many who fall absolutely, even though they did well.

I make this suggestion because it is likely that the numbers will change significantly, and that we should be prepared to add new divisions, without having to add them at the bottom of the League.
      
onyx puffin MAD
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Re:Promotions/Relagations For the League Thu, 22 January 2009 22:22
This league aspect is challenging, but I can foresee a lot of drops even if for one season. I know I personally may do one more season, but then with spring summer coming, I will be looking to take time off.
So how are you all proposing to handle that aspect of re-entry?

Also, do the A division players really like playing with each other that much that you keep 6? My suggestion is bottom 3 need to move out. (although whoever those 3 are will trounce me, so don't drop any of them too low. Shocked Laughing)
      
foudecoasters - Cerdon
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Re:Promotions/Relagations For the League Sat, 24 January 2009 21:19
league will be better with a pyramidal division

exemple with 10 groups :

division 1 ( 8 players )
3 descent

division 2 ( 3groups x 8players )
1 climb/ groups
2 descent/ groups

division 3 ( 6 groups X 8 players) (---) or more if the number of new players is big )
1 climb/ groups

ELO for create groups into division 2 and division 3 in the start of new season .

exemple in division 2: 24 players ( 3 groups )


group A : ELO 1 - ELO 6 - ELO 7 - ELO 12 - ELO 13 - ELO 18 - ELO 19 - ELO 24
group B : ELO 2 - ELO 5 - ELO 8 - ELO 11 - ELO 14 - ELO 17 - ELO 20 - ELO 23
group C : ELO 3 - ELO 4 - ELO 9 - ELO 10 - ELO 15 - ELO 16 - ELO 21 - ELO 22

new players start in division 3 ( 2 seasons for be in division 1 )

it's just my idea.... Very Happy

i think it's possible to play season 1 with 8 divisions and season 2 with only 3

for start season 2:
division 1 : first 5 division A season 1 + first 2 division B season 1 + first division C season 1 = 8 players
division 2 : last 3 division A season 1 + last 7 division B season 1 + middle 6 division C season 1 + first 5 division D season 1 + first 2 division E season 1 + fist division F season 1 = 24 players
division 3 : last 1 division C season 1 + last 3 division D season 1 + last 6 division E season 1 + last 7 division F season 1 + all players division G+H season 1 + new players ( 15 for 6 groups on division 3 ) = 48 players
( i play season 1 in division G - of course is not a good idea for me, but i think it's the better choice )


if a player stop to play the league , and come-back after, he restart in division3 .
if this player play in division 1 or 2. The best players who don't climb in the next division climb for him ( best second of groups).
I think league will be playing in winter only ( season 1 and 2 before SPWC and EMC and season 3 after nations cup = 3 season by year ).


sorry for my poor english



(if system don't move i think choice 2 of wildfire is good too Very Happy)


[Updated on: Sat, 24 January 2009 22:24]

      
Qorlas
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Re:Promotions/Relagations For the League Sat, 24 January 2009 21:37
Totally agree with Foudecoasters for the Pyramidal System (European Football style).

Also his choice of 3 levels for the division is nice... In this way we shoren the road between the Top and the Bottom for new entries.
      
Wildfire2099
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Re:Promotions/Relagations For the League Sun, 25 January 2009 17:07
I thought about doing that at first, actually, but I though that this way, they players would be closer in skill.. and thus, have better games.

I think there'd be too big a gap if there were only 3 divisions.

      
foudecoasters - Cerdon
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Re:Promotions/Relagations For the League Mon, 26 January 2009 18:39
i agree with you but : 8, 9, 10 or more division is not correct too .

a simulation for 4 divisions is season 2 , with best new players wildcard in division 2 and 3 :


division 1 : 1 group of 8 players :

1A - 2A - 3A - 4A - 5A - 1B - 2B - 1C ( 3 descent "for season 3" )

division 2 : 3 groups of 8 players = 24 players

6A - 7A - 8A - 3B - 4B - 5B - 6B - 7B - 8B - 2C - 3C - 4C - 5C - 6C - 1D - 2D - 3D - 4D - 5D - 1E - 2E - 3E - 1F + 2 best ELO new players ( 1 climb/groups in division 1 ; 2 descent/groups in division 3 )


division 3 : 3 groups of 8 players = 24 players

9B - 7C - 8C - 6D - 7D - 8D - 4E - 5E - 6E - 7E - 2F - 3F - 4F - 5F - 1G - 2G - 3G - 1H - 2H + 5 next ELO new players ( 2 climb/groups in division 2 ; 2 descent/groups in division 4 )


division 4 : 3 groups of 8 players = 24 players

8E - 6F - 7F - 8F - 4G - 5G - 6G - 7G - 8G - 3H - 4H - 5H - 6H - 7H - 8H + 9lowest ELO new players ( 2 climb/groups in division 3 )


just another possibily Cool

cue
      
AAA_dea1
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Re:Promotions/Relagations For the League Tue, 27 January 2009 19:44
Why not just leave it as it is?

If a top player wants to join, he gets a place in the highest group where somebody drops out.
Currently group A has 5 club#1 players, B has 4, C still has 1 - so I'd say all these groups are acceptable.
I cannot imagine there'll be so many newcomers that we can't work with this simple idea.

But OK, maybe there are more.
In that case create a new group in between the 2 best matching groups.
Let's assume we get many new good players for an example:
Create group B/C:
Relegations from B go to B/C - Winner of C goes to B, runner up to B/C. That leaves 1 spaces in B for the best newcomer.
The 3rd best players from C also goes to B/C - making 4 for B/C and another 4 places for good newcomers.
In C we now have 5 players, and another 3 empty spots.
      
foudecoasters - Cerdon
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Re:Promotions/Relagations For the League Tue, 27 January 2009 20:10
I am for a logical competition not offering a pass straight ahead has every season in the to) players. I would not understand that a player can enter and take out of the league during differentes seasons and always play in the strongest divisions. It would not be tres fair play for the players who have to win their right to play in superior division and who could not to leave the place with the players top.
About is the rules which will be defined, I shall continue has to play the league, because it is a reel pleasure. However I prefererai whether she is equitable at the level of the rights for all the players, and at whom she do not aim at facilitating always the top players.
Long life to this league!

[Updated on: Tue, 27 January 2009 20:11]

      
Wildfire2099
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Re:Promotions/Relagations For the League Tue, 27 January 2009 20:37
I don't really have any intent to re-structure... I think the Pyramid thing would work great if there was a large number of players at the same level, but I really think it would mess up the competition...

Really, the issue is whether or not moving up/down two for first/last should be done or not.

      
foudecoasters - Cerdon
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Re:Promotions/Relagations For the League Tue, 27 January 2009 20:45
The pyramid allows to stop wild-cards. So a top-player can climb in the first division quickly. I am OK for wild-cards in season 2, because all the players are not all subscribers in season 1. But after I am against bus it is no sportsman.

ok for "2)"

[Updated on: Tue, 27 January 2009 20:45]

      
Colo
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Re:Promotions/Relagations For the League Tue, 27 January 2009 22:24
some thoughts:

1) The League appears to be a great success. As a sidenote: the point system (1 for a game and 2 for a series win) is working well.

2) Thanks to Wildfire for doing a great job. Note that he is not playing himself!. Yet I support Zeno's suggestion to have a "board", which could gather opinions, discuss ideas in a smaller group and still no decision would be taken without Wildfire's ok.

3) I strongly support the idea of a pyramid. It would allow for climbing to higher levels within less seasons, allow for more flexibility to deal with drop outs/comebacks etc. (imagine in B1 one takes a break and in B2 someone comes back, just fine), allow for more variety in opponents (exchange some for the next seasons within the same level for example mix players that keep level C). Again, Wildfire, if you think it needs some work to install such a system, I am sure some people would be willing to help without questioning that the final decision is in your hand.

4) I strongly support the idea of more than 2 players advancing / dropping and also the idea that promotion for two levels should be possible, in the suggestion below this is limited to advancing from E to C and from D to B (not from C to A).

I expect we get some new players for season 2. We should also promote the League in other language forums (french and german). Here's my suggestion for a possible future division structure for 68 to 80 players. Currently we are 64. The suggestion could be easily adjusted to a different number of players with levels C and D having 8 or 9 players and level E having 6-10 players. The following is for 78 players.

A (1 division of 8):
#1-4 stay, #5-8 drop to B (new A = A1-4, B1-2 & B1-2)

B (2! divisions of 8):
#1-2 climb to A, #3-5 stay, #6-8 drop to C (new B = A5/A6, A8/A7, B3-5, C1-2, D1)

C (2! divisions of 9!):
#1-2 climb to B, #3-6 stay, #7-9 drop to D (new C = B6-8, C3-6, D2, E1)

D (2! divisions of 9!):
#1 climbs to B, #2 climbs to C, #3-6 stay, #7-9 drop to E (new D = C7-9, D3-6, E2-3)

E (2! divisions of 7/8/9):
#1 climbs to C, #2-3 climb to D, other stay (new E = D7-9, E4-9)

Note that these 5 levels are a compromise between the current 8 levels (with more players maybe even more) and the 3 levels suggested by others. Also note that it allows for promotion from E to C and D to B, yet none drops more than one level.

Sounds complidated? It is not! See this graphic on tickipedia. Shocked

5) How to handle the transition from season 1 to such a system? This is a one time thing. And it depends on the number (and level) of new entries, drop outs and therefore needs to be decided in detail (especially with the lower levels) in light of those eventualities and prolly by a "board" and/or the commissioner.

A (8): A1-6, B1-2
B (2x8): A7-8, B3-7, C1-5, D1-3, N1 (N for "new", one wildcard for best new entry)
C (2x9): B8-9, C6-8, D4-8, E1-4, F1-2, G1, N2-3 (two more wildcards)
D (2x9): D8, E5-7, F3-6, G2-4, H1-2, N4-8 (5 wildcards here)
E (2x9): F7-8, G5-8, H3-8, N9-14 (6 wildcards here)

(note that B has 9 players this season and E only 7)

Sounds complidated? It is just a bit. See this graphic on tickipedia. Shocked

Anyway a date needs to be set for "registration" to season 2, including current players.

6) How to handle new entries? Suggestion: Enter only at level E or D. System allows to get to top (A) from bottom (E) in three seasons, for "tops" entering at level D it allows to get to A in two seasons. Fill level D with the higher ELO entries, rest goes to E.

7) How to handle drop outs? Fill the division with one more promotion from the lower level.

8 ) How to handle "pauses"? Someone taking a break for one season may enter at the level he would play without a break (that is taking into consideration his rank in the last season he played) IF someone at that level drops out in the following season. If not he is ranked as if he would perform bad the "sabatical" season and face relegation, that is he has a right to enter one level below. If that level is overcrowded at that time, one more player is facing relegation. If a player pauses more than one season he is regarded a new entry and may enter at level D or E only.

0.02
Colo

[Updated on: Thu, 29 January 2009 05:50]

      
foudecoasters - Cerdon
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Re:Promotions/Relagations For the League Tue, 27 January 2009 22:58
I am really impressed by your proposition colo. It is the best.

To return there has the involvement implication of the French players in the league, I am anxious to say that current systemeat multiple levels in discourage many players to join. Many people would have preferred a systeme in pyramid.

Wildfire, your idea of create the league is the best idea since that of bassie to create nations cup in 2005. greats, and thank you to you for your involvement and the moments of pleasure which it generates to many players.
However, i think that the system deserve an improvement, and the proposition of colo is for me the best (much more than mines).It is it which should etre subjected to a vote, and which should taken away a big succes (I think of it).

Wildfire, you are the only one boss of this league. I wish you to make the good choices. And still thank you for your work.
Very Happy


edit 28/01/2009 : with the graphic on tickipedia, you are so fair. really great work .

[Updated on: Wed, 28 January 2009 11:25]

      
UEG xbomanx
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Re:Promotions/Relagations For the League Thu, 29 January 2009 01:57
Hi all,

i see the nice discussion of a new league reform for the future with many of big ideas.

wildfire, foudcouster or colo they are all have many of visions.
but what is the best for us all to continue the league with players that are know in the league and coming soon newcomers.

i thing it is not correct that a new player that have more than 1700 or 1800 ELO points are beginning in the lowest division, cause it doesnt make sense.

wildcard for this newcomers in higher divisions are very acceptable what foudcouster and colo wants to integrate in their ideas.

but in which division they are beginns?
what is correct and not unfair towards the other players?


if i to consider the idea of foudcouster that wants 3 groups in a division of 8 players ( 8 its enough i thing ) lets get coming to point at nearest.

why ?

1.) its very flexible for everyone players and many of another oppenents in the comings seasons of all of us.

foudcouster wrote 2 newplayers in division 2 i thing 3 is better
more flexibility. 21 + 3 new players
before beginning new league every insider change nearly their groups in they division.

2. ) the up and down in other divisions is faster for all players in the league and in the division there are not big tediousness.

foudcouster wrote too 5 newplayers in division 3 i thing 6 is better, cause 18 + 6 you understand i hope Smile

than after that we can integrate colos idea about the up and downs but with a one differense.

From Division A bye 8 players down 3 players in Division B
From Division B bye 8 players and bye 3 groups up first one at the different groups and i thing its feasible that the seconds of their groups can plays a relegation with in form of a k.o. system with the 5th of Division A to complete the lasts up/down.

this regelment prevalence in each our Division how C or we will see in D when we have more players.

and than we consult wildfires idea at the end which we have bye beginnings the third seasion.
only max 4 or 5 divisions A 8 players
B 24 players
C 24 players
D 24 players
E 24 players

without no place for newcomers in higher divisions and only start in lowest division.

Why ?

they have many of time to registrate them himself over 2 months,
i hope wildfire wrote this in his next text.

up and downs from division from now see what i wrote before.

i hope i found a compromisse with this many of big but different ideas from wildfire, foudcouster and colo.

thats only a idea not a must to do it.


many greats xbomanx
      
AAA_Pammes
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Re:Promotions/Relagations For the League Thu, 29 January 2009 08:07
thanks first to wildfire for organizing and creating the league, all the work, thoughts and time he put into it Laughing
and for colo and others who put a lot of time and work into it as well

for me its great the way it is at the moment
but i can also imagine a pyramid system would be great as well

i dont really see a need to change the existing rules
the ranking and group pairings was according to elo
everybody new beforehand it would be that way and could play before the beginning to get the ranking he wanted if needed (i recall asking Zimo for multis before and he said: he does not want to destroy his ranking for the league play - since he wanted to be a tycoon - and thats ok)
on the other side i think half of each league changes each season (2 going up, 2 going down)
therefore is a change in players you play against for sure
i personally looked through all leagues and there is no single one, i would not like to play in
in each league there are friends playing, i would love to play against and there are unknowns playing i am not used to play against and that mixture would be fun for me Laughing

and league play is as tournament play not something that can be planned: you win against much stronger players because you have a good day or get lucky with your ticks and colours and locos
or you loose against a much lower ranked player
thats the way it works - just see the upsets in NC during the last years
therefore im am against dropping or rising 2 leagues for last or first
because as i see it at the moment: 1,2 - 7,8 are too close to really award a winner or loser with that huge jump
(in our league (D) at the moment from 17 games played, 6 (! one third of all games!) ended 4-3 = its just that close a winner or looser is decided)
and as i said: sometimes luck happens and shit as well
sorry for the bad word Embarassed

at least for me there is no problem that i would need three seasons to get up from the d-League to the tycoons (and i guess it will take more than that if i can ever do it because of the way it just goes in tournaments)
because thats the way it is done and deserved from my elo-ranking before the tournament

as it is at the moment, where one season takes about 2 months to play, it takes 16 months to get from division H to divison A: lets say one and half year - that time it normally takes (but i might be wrong in that one) for a new ttr-player to get to the top rankings in elo as well (i mean we are talking about Tycoon class = top ten players: i am more than 3 years playing TTR and i am arrogant enough Twisted Evil to say i am a good one, and was just once in the top ten if i recall that correctly...)
therefore i think thats fair as well

for dropouts/newcomers:
i would add newcomers according to their elo-ranking to the leagues (i guess there is a list, which ranking was needed to get into league C,D,E,F,G,H before league play started
but i would close league A,B for newcomers: because those spots should be earned
and i hope/guess that the number of drops/newcomers will be almost identical and it seems no problem to put into one league up to 10 players if there is a need for it

for drops i would say it depends on the amount of time somebody does not play league play:
if its less than 6 months (3 league seasons)
somebody just drops every 2 months (one league season) one league
if his reentry takes longer than 6 months (3 league seasons) he would be counted as newcomer (according to his elo-ranking but not in League A or B)

thats my thoughts on this topic
have fun all playing league as i have it!
Laughing Very Happy Laughing

and again thanks for all the work you put into it that we can play and have fun

[Updated on: Thu, 29 January 2009 08:35]

      
foudecoasters - Cerdon
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Re:Promotions/Relagations For the League Thu, 29 January 2009 09:38
i agree with lot of your idea.
and for that, i really think the Colo's idea is the best.
Best Wildcards for season 2, and little wildcards after.
And the ELO is variable and not the rules for me . ( for exemple my current ELO is better than the best ELO in division D in start of the league )and i play with big pleasure in division G. lot of players have a ELO ranking big or little at a moment datum , but i prefer facilitate the diligent players to the league rather than the player classified well at the moment datum . For me wildcard for highest division is not a good idea for the fair-play of this game.
for pyramidal, i think the colo's pyramid is the best.
with changes in the number of group division 5 (3 groups) and KO round games for the rise in Division 4 as in the idea of xbomanx ( if numbers of players is too big only ).

cue

foude

[Updated on: Thu, 29 January 2009 09:53]

      
AAA_Lucullupus
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  Re:Promotions/Relagations For the League Thu, 29 January 2009 09:52
Bravo Pammes,

I am with you. Everyone has suggestions without knowing how many players wants to join the next competition...
So we can wait und collect announcements for phase 2... maybe there are none und we are talking completely senseless.
Like Pammes I hate the imagination that newcomers (even if they are top 10 in the moment) get in a top group without fighting for that...and if this will be the conclusion I will leave the competition because this would be against the spirit of this league.

Yours,
Lucullupus
Cool Cool Cool

[Updated on: Thu, 29 January 2009 09:54]

      
foudecoasters - Cerdon
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Re:Promotions/Relagations For the League Thu, 29 January 2009 10:02
totally agree with your conclusion lucullupus !

but it's better to talk about that now ....
      
Deveric - Vosne Romanee
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Re:Promotions/Relagations For the League Thu, 29 January 2009 13:15
For me ,

i really think the Colo's idea is the best.


      
AAA_Lucullupus
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  Re:Promotions/Relagations For the League Thu, 29 January 2009 15:09
Yes, I agree...

... if we have to change, Colos model is best (till now).
Very Happy

[Updated on: Thu, 29 January 2009 15:09]

      
Qorlas
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Re:Promotions/Relagations For the League Fri, 30 January 2009 22:39
Hi to all,

After having read every proposal on the matter I think that the proposal from Colo on Tickipedia (in his user page, see the link in his post) is the best one.

In fact, we should have a "formula" for the league that could accomplish the following issues:

*PROMOTIONS-RELEGATIONS:Semi-automatic structure of promotions-relegations

*GAP BETWEEN TOP AND BOTTOM LEVEL:Shortening the "distance" to go from bottom to top division (Pyramidal system [or semi-pyramidal like the Colo's one] here is for sure the best one)

*HOW TO PUT NEW ENTRIES: I don't like the creation of totally new intermediate divisions for new players. People who wins their division should be rewarded with a real step up on the ladder!
For example: let's say that Foudecoaster wins Division G (7th division). He should be promoted in the 6th division (whatever the name will be).... but if you introduce new intermediate divisions for new entries then "puff" he will play the following season in 7th division again.

On the other hand we have to consider the needs of really top players if they will desire to enter the league....


RECIPE of the solution:

* Use of Wild Cards just for next season
* Shortening of the gap od levels between top and bottom
* I really really like the idea of putting a limit for new entries at D level having in total 5 levels.
* People that cannot compete in particular seasons should just lose a level for each season in which he does not compete...

--------------------------
In short I really like the proposal from Colo and support it as an optimal way of making a transition of the league to a formula that can support larger number of players.

[Updated on: Fri, 30 January 2009 22:40]

      
Wildfire2099
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Re:Promotions/Relagations For the League Sat, 31 January 2009 00:38
Wow, you guys have alot of ideas! Here's what I think:

1) All these ideas are very good, but also very complicated... I think people should know where they are going.

2) Alot of this depends on how the registration for season 2 looks like.. I suspect it will stay pretty similar. Putting people where they belong will work itself out one way or another. It does make the most sense to slot people in where they belong, rather than at the bottom.. but the feasibility of that will depend on the # of new players.

2A) Anyone wishing to translate/co-ordinate people in the other language forums, got for it! I only speak English,(well, I did take French in high school I suppose, but that's not enough to post and read posts with much coherency)

3) I'm still concerned with the gap in abilities with a pyramid structure.. though 5 levels rather than 3 seems a good middle ground. It also would fix the possible future problem of people playing the same people over and over again. Perhaps we could gradually shift things... for instance, next season, divisions 7 and 8 (and 9 if necessary) become the same level.. then next time another merger could occur.. that way there isn't any major changes.

The bottom line is alot depends on registration... I was thinking of starting that next week, actually Smile

      
LMT Hecki
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Re:Promotions/Relagations For the League Sat, 31 January 2009 01:07
Hi folks,

i would prefer a pyramide solution too. One top league, two 2nd leagues, ... . Just like Colo, but maybe with 10 players in each division. Then it wouldn't be such a big problem if some players leave the tournament in the season.

Greetings,
Hecki
      
SMP-bassie
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Re:Promotions/Relagations For the League Sun, 01 February 2009 19:28
Hi all,

A huge amount of suggestions, I am afraid I have one too. It is rather complicated but it is not dependent on the number of dropouts or the number of newcomers.

Step 1
At the end of the season, all players are put in result order (see below) and they get a percentage equal to the number of players below them plus themselves divided by the total number of players plus one (in this case, the worst gets 1/65 and the best gets 64/65). All players that will not play in the next season (which they have to notify before the end, otherwise they are automatically selected) will keep this percentage.

Step 2
All players that continue to play and all new players that have not played league the past four rounds are put in order of ELO-rating and the new ones get a percentage equal to the way the staying players got in Step 1. This percentage is decreased by 20%.

Step 3
The staying players and the new players now are put in order for this season. For the staying players the percentage determined in step 1 is used and for the new players the percentage in step 2 is used. Reentering players take the percentage of their last participation minus 5% per league round that they missed (after missing more than 3 rounds they are considered new).

Note 1. I propose the following result order: A1-A2-A3-A4-B1-A5-B2-A6-B3-A7-B4-A8-B5-C1-B6-C2-B7-C3-B8-C4- B9-D1-C5-C6-D2-C7-D3-D4-C8 etc.

Note 2. I prefer the following division schedule: A-B1-B2-C1-C2 etc, so "half-pyramidal". One top division and then for each step two parallel divisions.

Note 3. Yes, in this case one only knows after registration closing in what division they belong but the nice part is that all players fight till the end since each position won can mean going up by one division.

Note 4. In terms of schedule, I think we should start a new league round immediately after the previous one has finished and it should have the duration equal to the number of matches one plays. Preferably divisions of 10 players, so a round duration of 9 weeks (the lowest division takes the remainder of players, could be only 2 or 3). I think we should start the next round 1 March. I have no strong opinion if with big tournaments the league should take a break. I do not think a break for summer holiday is necessary; we are flexible in playing anyway.

Note 5. Any matches unplayed at the end of the season should leave both players involved with zero points, unless one can prove he did all he could to plan it, in that case he gets his average of other matches.

Note 6. (should have been Note 1) Thanks Wildfire for the fantastic idea and thanks all for their constructive contributions.

Whatever decision is taken, I will continue playing next round!

cu, bas
      
2Cutter
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Re:Promotions/Relagations For the League Sun, 01 February 2009 20:40
Ups, 2Cutter was logged in, this is Goscha.

Wildfire2099 schrieb am Sat, 31 January 2009 00:38

Wow, you guys have alot of ideas! Here's what I think:

2) Alot of this depends on how the registration for season 2 looks like.. I suspect it will stay pretty similar. Putting people where they belong will work itself out one way or another. It does make the most sense to slot people in where they belong, rather than at the bottom.. but the feasibility of that will depend on the # of new players.






Colo worked out a very good solution for season 2.


On the other hand: "Let the league like it is".
If i win no game in the league, i need 7 seasons to drop down to div H. Seems the best for me. Embarassed

No, kidding!

I support Colos model.

Exception:

Half of div A will drop down is a little heavy, 3 is also ok.
Then the two 2nds of group b can play a relegation match for
the last place in div A.

If the groups grow to 10 players, Colos proposal is good like it is.




[Updated on: Sun, 01 February 2009 20:44]

      
Colo
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Re:Promotions/Relagations For the League Sun, 01 February 2009 22:38
@ Goscha,

The slightly larger number of promotions and relegations included in my proposal would add to the drama, me thinks. The structure with 1 division A and 2 B and lower results in the need for more than 2 relegations from A. While you got a point that 4 relegations from A are "tough", not qualifying for A with a second place in B would be even tougher. So additional relegation matches like you proposed are of course a possible compromise. Yet I - if the "pyramid" will be installed at all - still favor the 4 drop outs of A. Would make A a real tough group, but so what, the are the "top", it should be tough, and much drama! (Note that for the one time transition from current system in season 1 to possible pyramid in season 2 I propose only two dropping from A and two rising from B.)

Increasing the number of players in the groups to 9 (as partly done in my proposal) or even 10 could of course be easily done within the systems logic. I guess we have to wait and see how many register for season 2 to decide that.

@ all,

First thing to decide in my opinion is not the details, but if we DO want a pyramid (or as bassie called my proposal a semi-pyramid) at all? While (surprise surprise) I say YES (see my earlier post for some advantages and > this visualization), some may consider it too complex?

      
Qorlas
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Re:Promotions/Relagations For the League Sun, 01 February 2009 22:46
Regarding transition between A and B1 and B2.....

Why not?

Relegation of bottom 3 from A.

Promotion for 1st in B1 and B2
Last place could be contested in a playoff (bo7?) between the two that have reached 2nd place in the two groups.


EDIT
Generally speaking I am for a some type of pyramid. The ladder needs to be shortened.

[Updated on: Sun, 01 February 2009 22:47]

      
AAA_dea1
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Re:Promotions/Relagations For the League Sun, 01 February 2009 23:22
time for my 2c again ...

short version:
Please keep the League unchanged - it is GOOD!


For those with more time to read Rolling Eyes

1) I don't like pyramids. (if we really must have one, Bassie's Semi pyramid structur is better than full pyramid).
Advantage of pyramid is that good players can climb to the top faster.
Downside is that the skill spread within a group is larger, so more players are slaughtered, less players can hope to qualify for going up and therefore lose interest.
Pyramid = for the benefit of a few tops who didn't play League from the start and have a long way to the top (if they have to go that way and don't get a place higher up by some of the other suggestions anyhow) we make it less enjoyable for all the rest.
If we want to make the way to the top faster, go with the 'winner moves up 2' approach.

2) Promotions/relegations are the spice of the event - don't remove that by configuring new groups according to whatever algorithm.

3) I'm completely against any method to guarantee places in the top group(s) to new League players whoever they are (giving a place to a player at TD's discretion to make up for a dropout is a different matter) because
a) everyone has to 'work for his supper'
b) League play is quite different from other games that produce ELO
c) If a new player can get a top spot if his ELO is, say, 1750, what about an existing player in group C with the same ELO? Is he punished for having been there from the start? Do we want to encourage him to drop out and come back after 3 seasons with an ELO sufficient for group A?

I'm still convinced we'll find out that we don't need any changes, once we see the new registration list.
But maybe poeple will register (or not) depending on the setup.
So the rules should be there beforehand, shouldn't they?
      
Colo
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Re:Promotions/Relagations For the League Mon, 02 February 2009 01:09
dea, I cant resist

ad 2) completely agree
ad 3) completely agree (note my proposal goes that direction)
ad 1) disagree
- offering a chance to climb fast would encourage tops and others to join, offering little chance to climb fast might especially keep tops away
- offering a chance to climb fast might be thrilling and fun for current members too
- one (of several) other advantages of a pyramid versus the current format, even modified with more relegations, is that it allows for more variation (could exchange player of one level between seasons)
- I doubt the scope of a pyramidal system with 5 levels is that much bigger than in an 8 level system, that people get easily slaughtered, for an example look at current division b and c and dont tell me that division c players are nothing but easy victims for division b players
- some scope within a group may be very good spice for the league, imagine you would (just a theoretical example) play in one group with me and imagine (again, theory) I take a 3-0 lead ... the smell of a big surprise would attract quite some visitors! Smile
- and I agree that the pyramid should still have at least 5 levels (A,BB,CC,DD,EE)
      
Zeno
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Re:Promotions/Relagations For the League Mon, 02 February 2009 05:06
Let's continue with tiki, doing a straw poll that Wildfire can feel free to ignore. I have set up the basic structure of a poll at

http://www.informatik.uni-frankfurt.de/~erps/tickipedia/inde x.php/League_Structure_Poll

Please do not vote yet!

During the next three days, add to the discussion, modify questions and answers, and feel free to introduce new topics. After that time, place your votes, and we'll see if we are close to a consensus (which would give Wildfire useful information) or if we are at odds about how things are working (In which case we need a strong commissioner to guide us).
      
foudecoasters - Cerdon
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Re:Promotions/Relagations For the League Mon, 02 February 2009 14:28
[quote title=dea1 écrit le Sun, 01 February 2009 23:22]c) If a new player can get a top spot if his ELO is, say, 1750, what about an existing player in group C with the same ELO? Is he punished for having been there from the start? Do we want to encourage him to drop out and come back after 3 seasons with an ELO sufficient for group A?

totally agree with you ! it's one of the big problems with wildcard for top players ... so unfair solution !

COLO IDEA ALWAYS FOR ME ! Very Happy
      
Wildfire2099
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Re:Promotions/Relagations For the League Mon, 02 February 2009 14:47
I'd just like to encourage people to vote in Zeno's poll.. more information is good!
      
AAA_dea1
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Re:Promotions/Relagations For the League Mon, 02 February 2009 18:34
Why should you resist, Colo? Laughing

Colo schrieb am Mon, 02 February 2009 01:09


- I doubt the scope of a pyramidal system with 5 levels is that much bigger than in an 8 level system, that people get easily slaughtered, for an example look at current division b and c and dont tell me that division c players are nothing but easy victims for division b players


As it is possible that I'll be playing in DivC myself soon I'd better say noooooooo Laughing
Of course in the semi pyramid A,BB,CC,... it's better than in a full pyramid A,BB,CCCC,...
But still - if one level comprises 8 players instead of 16 the chances of an average player in this level to move up are far better as the skill differences whithin a group are narrower.
In season1 we certainly have some players who are a lot better than the rest of their group (as they happened to have a low ELO in December) thus contradicting the 'narrow spread' argument, but with promotions/relegations this will even out.

Colo schrieb am Mon, 02 February 2009 01:09


- imagine you would (just a theoretical example) play in one group with me and imagine (again, theory) I take a 3-0 lead ... the smell of a big surprise would attract quite some visitors! Smile


Is there a smell of fighting spirit in the air? Rolling Eyes
Yours for an off-League-challenge any time. Cool
I'm sure you find a way to attract some visitors even if you will of course NOT lead 3-0 Twisted Evil
      
ATN Drake
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Re:Promotions/Relagations For the League Tue, 03 February 2009 06:05
One thing I'm interested in is - what is the goal of the League? Why is it fun?

For me, it seems the fun arises from climbing the ladder/divisions. I can play tops in the lobby all day long, so beating other top players is just another day of TTR.

For that reason I think there should be more divisions, not less! (i.e. no pyramid). And for top players that didn't join in season one, too bad! Start at the bottom, or at least closer to the bottom. Hey, that way lower ranked players will get to play against them and gain some experience!

Also, I don't think there should be more than 8 people in a division. Its hard enough for me being a US player coordinating 7 matches with European players, let alone more. Sure the bigger the divisions, the longer the time you have to play all your matches, but I think the league needs to actually be shortened so that people can drop out or join more often. Also the fun of climbing up a division would happen more often with shorter league (i.e. with say only 6 people per division). Smaller divisions also mean you play the same people less - with 8 if 2 move up and 2 move down - there are 4 people who stay the same and have to play each other again. With 6, if 2 move up and 2 move down, then only 2 remain.

One problem I see with the league is that the skill level of most players (at the top) are pretty much fixed, so moving among the top divisions once everything settles (i.e. over-rated people ELO-wise will drop, etc.) the movement between divisions will be somewhat random. Looking at this season, I'm in group C, if I get unlucky I would drop to D, but unless I get really unlucky the next season I wouldn't drop to E, and would probably end up back in C. On the other end, I could potetially work my way up to A with a bit of luck on my side, but I would never stay in A if 4 of the 8 drop down (as suggested by Colo). If only 2 drop down, I might have a chance to stay for more than a season. So with Colo's suggestion I have less interest in being in the league, or at least it won't be as fun as it could be. Of course with 6 people staying in Division A, everyone there has to play the same people each season.

The next problem with the league is that you get no benefit from winning Division A (there's no way to move up anymore). You could win the division 5 times in a row, then have a bad set of matches and drop down. That doesn't seem fair. There should be a way for you to get some kind of immunity from being bumped down in a later season if you win the division - not exactly sure how it would work.

[Updated on: Tue, 03 February 2009 06:11]

      
Colo
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Re:Promotions/Relagations For the League Tue, 03 February 2009 07:17
WMD Drake WMD schrieb am Tue, 03 February 2009 06:05

... but I would never stay in A if 4 of the 8 drop down (as suggested by Colo). If only 2 drop down, I might have a chance to stay for more than a season. So with Colo's suggestion I have less interest in being in the league ...


I suggested 4 relegations from A only for a possible (semi-)pyramid with two Divisions B. If in such a system you would reduce relegation from A to 2 players you must also restrict promotion from B to A to just one player per B-Division. Chances are you would never make it to A then. Rolling Eyes That again would lower your chance to get to A.

[Updated on: Tue, 03 February 2009 07:19]

      
AAA_dea1
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Re:Promotions/Relagations For the League Tue, 03 February 2009 15:27
Thanks colo for providing yet another argument against a pyramid system Twisted Evil
      
Colo
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Re:Promotions/Relagations For the League Sat, 07 February 2009 01:22
I updated my ticki page with suggestions concerning league structure, promotions, dropouts etc. Whoever is interested in arguments and details, see > here.
      
ATN Drake
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Re:Promotions/Relagations For the League Sat, 07 February 2009 04:23
I had an idea for a league system that could work.

Do Season 1 Promotions/Relegations as planned.

For Season 2 the League would work as follows:

1.) The Season is 5 Weeks long.

2.) You play 5 other people in your division. Who plays who is determined randomly*

3.) If you go 5-0 you move up 2 divisions, 4-1 you move up 1, 3-2 and 2-3 you stay where you are. 1-4 you move down 1, and finally 0-5 you go down 2.

4.) If you leave the league and return, you merely go back to the division where you left.

5.) New players could either be added to the bottom division or a division based on their ELO.

6.) It doesn't matter how many people are in a division as long as there are 6 people. With less than six the division could be merged into either the higher or lower division before the next season starts.

7.) If you are in the top division and go 5-0 you win 2 "locos", and 4-1 you win 1 "loco". If in a later season you are to move down a division, you can use your loco to stay where you are (i.e. if you had 1 "loco" and went 0-5, you could use your "loco" so you only move down 1 division instead of 2). [Alternatively you could have the people going 5-0 and 4-1 move into a new division that is higher than the current top division, thus the ladder could stretch]


*The only hard part about this system is creating an algorithim for matching up the players randomly each season (such that each player is playing 5 games), but I think someone math inclined could figure something out.

The benefit of a system like this is it doesn't matter if people drop out between seasons or even during the season. Also if you stay in the same division you won't necessarily play the same people season after season since you only play 5 other players and there could be 10, 15, or who knows how many people in the division.

I'm sure there are a few other details that would need to be pinned down, but otherwise I think it could be a good system and easier to manage than the current system.
      
Colo
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Re:Promotions/Relagations For the League Sat, 07 February 2009 06:21
@ drake

One first thing that comes to my mind: imagine a 6 player group ... 1, 2 and 3 win all games against 4, 5 and 6, 1 beats 2, 2 beats 3, 3 beats 2, 4 beats 5, 5 beats 6, 6 beats 4. That would completely empty that group. Imagine in the group above noone ends 1-4 (many end 2-3, its possible) and in the ... you get my point. Groups could get much smaller or bigger within one seasons. You would need to discuss about mergers and shifts and stuff ... guess its more complex than it first sounds. As said, just a quick first thought.

[Updated on: Sat, 07 February 2009 06:23]

      
ATN Drake
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Re:Promotions/Relagations For the League Sat, 07 February 2009 08:16
Colo wrote on Fri, 06 February 2009 21:21

@ drake

Groups could get much smaller or bigger within one seasons. You would need to discuss about mergers and shifts and stuff ...


See #6.

Yes there could/would be mergers.

But division should start bigger than 6 so might be a few seasons before any mergers would be needed. Season 1, we have 8 or 9 people per. If more people join for season 2, we could get 10+ per division.

I just like the idea of a shorter season, 5 weeks vs. 7 or 8. I also like that leaving for a season or more and coming back isn't a hassle to figure out where you come back. Or someone leaving mid-season and messing up the rankings within the division. My idea basically gets rid of those problems.

I'm not saying the current system or colo's suggestion are bad, just throwing out another possibility that could work well for what we have.
      
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