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SirKirby
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Kursant

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February 2005
Realistic tank battles in the Desert? Wed, 25 February 2009 08:43
Am I the only person ever to get thrashed by an armoured overrun attack when common sense and history suggest that it shouldn't have been me that got licked?

[img]http://www.daysofwonder.com/uploads/userpages/78089/_1769_we b.jpg[/img]

In the image, an inferior force of Crusaders takes on Mk IIIs and IVs of 21st Panzer, ably abetted by the finest AT guns of the war, the 88mm (craftily disguised as Japanese AA guns).

"A" Troop, commanded by my son, on his turn, charges forward to engage my tanks at point blank range, while on the opposite flank "B" Troop does the same.

"A" Troop moves adjacent to Unit V, attacks, wins and then overruns on W; "B" Troop moves adjacent to Unit Y, attacks, wins and then overruns the 88mm on X.

With a bit of the luck my opponent customarily enjoys, my tanks will get severely mauled and the remainder turn and flee, enabling Brigadier Brat to chew up my Panzer Grenadiers and overrun my 88s into the bargain.

Have I missed something or shouldn't my men get to respond in some way to what clearly is -- or would have been -- a suicidal maneuver?

Perhaps at least the 88mm should be allowed to get off an automatic "ambush" before those Crusaders get to point blank range?
      
Hawkmoon von Köln
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Tenente Colonello

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Re:Realistic tank battles in the Desert? Wed, 25 February 2009 14:52
It's clear that british tank soldiers were not fool enough to make a charge toward 88 mm AA guns like the Light Cavalry Brigade...
Your idea of automatic ambuh is good but greatly changes the rules...
Remember that artillery is only hit by grenade symbol...
Perhaps, introducing a moral roll for this kind of "Kamikaze" attacks...
Greetings from Le Mans Cool
PS : Sorry for my bad english
Edit : I just realize that you live in Spain. ? Puede ser que Usted sea interesado por un forum en Castellano ? Ya he preguntado a la gente de DoW para tener un forum en Castellano y Português. Estoy esperando...

[Updated on: Wed, 25 February 2009 14:55]

      
SirKirby
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Re:Realistic tank battles in the Desert? Wed, 25 February 2009 16:22
I think that in fact the Brits did find that they (or at least their commanders Embarassed ) were foolish enough to charge suicidally into the attack... But that's exactly the point! They should suffer accordingly!

Would an automatic ambush for AT guns change the rules so much? It wouldn't add too much in the way of complication, even if you had one range for 88mm and another for others.

What it might do is bring in a little more subtlety to the game, which wouldn't be a bad thing.

Forum "en castellano"? I definitely think there should be one!
      
rasmussen81
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Re:Realistic tank battles in the Desert? Wed, 25 February 2009 16:28
It's true that in many scenarios, the Artillery doesn't play a huge factor and a new rule allowing automatic ambush rolls wouldn't change the game very much because the Artillery is hardly ever charged...except for beach scenarios.

Imagine if Artillery was allowed to ambush every time the Allies did a Close Assault in Omaha beach! I think you could make a case for a new house rule, but as a general plan I wouldn't want that rule in place during most of my battles.
      
SirKirby
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Re:Realistic tank battles in the Desert? Wed, 25 February 2009 16:51
Yes, I see what you mean.

Perhaps I should have added that we play anti-tank guns as being distinct from artillery -- as with the 88mm in my example.

Those guns marked as AT (or the new infantry with AT special weapons capacity) surely should be able to take at least a couple of pot shots!
      
jt0015
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May 2006
Re:Realistic tank battles in the Desert? Tue, 03 March 2009 15:38
You, my friend, should try out Tide of Iron.
Each nation's tanks have completely different stats depending on their historical abilities (AKA a TigerI would easily defeat a Crusader) and they have rules that allow artillery to fire at oncoming enemy units(Opportunity Fire).
      
rasmussen81
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Re:Realistic tank battles in the Desert? Tue, 03 March 2009 16:11
jt0015 wrote on Tue, 03 March 2009 06:38

You, my friend, should try out Tide of Iron.
Each nation's tanks have completely different stats depending on their historical abilities (AKA a TigerI would easily defeat a Crusader) and they have rules that allow artillery to fire at oncoming enemy units(Opportunity Fire).


It does sound like it would be fix the problems you guys were talking about. Be ready for a MUCH longer game though! Tide of Iron sounds interesting but not for me. I like being able to set up and play quickly, learn the rules quickly, and introduce non-board gamers to the game and have them willing to come back for more. But I understand the desire for more realism, and it sounds like TOI might provide that.
      
SirKirby
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Re:Realistic tank battles in the Desert? Tue, 03 March 2009 16:36
Tide of Iron? Actually I'd rather play M44 (the outlay already having been made, the new expense involved being important considerations...)

M44 is one of the best board games I've ever played, apart from anything else because you can bring in house rules and still keep one of its big pluses -- it's simplicity.

That also is one of its big drawbacks: it's just TOO simple on occasions, as in the example that started this thread.

When the fact that it's totally unrealistic historically starts to ruin enjoyment of the game, I think we need house rules.

And (as they already have, with the Med. expansion) anti-tank guns are (or were) clearly a unit type missing from the game.
      
jt0015
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Re:Realistic tank battles in the Desert? Tue, 03 March 2009 18:56
I do like Memoir don't get me wrong; but the simplicity was just too great for my tastes. Instead of being able to develop strategies of my own I was reliant on the luck of the cards which could win or break the game.

The only reason I mention Tide of Iron is because all the things that are bothering you are solved in it. Another game I would recommend is Conflict of Heroes. This game has a (very) simple set-up, easy to follow rules with immense depth. I was able to teach my friends almost every concept of the game in 30 minutes.

I recommend trying other games before declaring Memoir your number 1 game. I still play Memoir; the level of content is great. But what Memoir lacked (too simplistic rules, unrealistic tactics, that darn card system) I've found in other war games.
      
SirKirby
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Re:Realistic tank battles in the Desert? Tue, 03 March 2009 19:37
I'm a really big boardgames player, and have also participated in game design.

M44 is one of my all time favourites because (1) it has huge (endless) replayability value and (2) precisely because there is so much scope for bringing in house rules and so on to make it as complex as you wish.

It's my personal feeling that, if these are well designed, they enhance the game and add to the enjoyment, both in the play and in the design and the discussion of them.
      
nemesszili
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Hauptmann

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Re:Realistic tank battles in the Desert? Thu, 12 March 2009 18:53
Now, when the British Commonwealth rules are activated in the desert, the "Knightsbridge" scenario became much more realistic!
      
50th
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October 2006
Re:Realistic tank battles in the Desert? Fri, 13 March 2009 02:47
I've also been trounced by a unit on a "suicide mission". Sometimes luck was with certain units. Consider how much German tanks broke down because of the lack of parts, ammo, or fuel, and you might be able to see why your superior force may have been bested by an inferior tank. Just something else to think about.

__________________
"And while the hordes of death are mighty, the battalions of life are mightier still. It is my hope that my son, when I am gone, will remember me not from the battle but in the home repeating with him our simple daily prayer, 'Our Father who art in heaven." Douglas MacArthur <><
      
Kaufschtick
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Re:Realistic tank battles in the Desert? Fri, 13 March 2009 05:37
jt0015 wrote on Tue, 03 March 2009 12:56

I do like Memoir don't get me wrong; but the simplicity was just too great for my tastes. Instead of being able to develop strategies of my own I was reliant on the luck of the cards which could win or break the game.

The only reason I mention Tide of Iron is because all the things that are bothering you are solved in it. Another game I would recommend is Conflict of Heroes. This game has a (very) simple set-up, easy to follow rules with immense depth. I was able to teach my friends almost every concept of the game in 30 minutes.

I recommend trying other games before declaring Memoir your number 1 game. I still play Memoir; the level of content is great. But what Memoir lacked (too simplistic rules, unrealistic tactics, that darn card system) I've found in other war games.


I have Conflict of Heros, and Tide of Iron myself. I just recently came back around to M44 here as well, and bought the whole smack, bag included, last week.

I would recommend all three of these games, as they are all outstanding games.

M44 is a super fun game that I like to think of as relying on a fair amount of abstraction in how it presents itself. It's strengths are it's short playing time and ease of learning for new players, and that darn card system! Very Happy It's unique, fun and a blast to play.

ToI is a step up in terms of a lesser level of abstraction present in the game. It's a little longer game depending on the scenario, but the level of detail & realism is greater.

CoH takes the level of abstraction out still further, although not entirely, and presents a greater level of detail. In this game you will deal with unit facing and see a great deal more detail in the different weapons and vehicles represented.

I myself am thrilled to have all three of these great games. They all share in common a high emphasis on playabilty, briefness of rules, and the highest possible quality in game components.

To own all three, I feel, allows a player to enjoy a great game in any given circumstance, occasion or time frame. For me, it just depends on what kind of a mood my friends and I are in! Smile

[Updated on: Fri, 13 March 2009 05:50]

      
    
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