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dea1
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T2R Nation Cup 2007 Winner

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September 2005
League Season 3 discussion thread Mon, 02 March 2009 11:56
Hi fellow League players,

season 1 is finally in the bag, and so is the lineup for season 2.
Once again many thanks to Wildfire for organizing this great event.

Some people mentioned in the various threads that some things ought to be discussed and communicated before the end of the next season.

So here's my questions/topics for a start:

When does season 3 start (is the date according to Masimo's tournament calendar on)?

What is the ultimate date to play a season 2 match?

Will the current semi-pyramid mode stay?

How many players per group will we have in season 3 for the upper groups (stay with 7?, back to 8?, flexible depending on dropouts?)

What's the procedure for empty spaces (more promotions? less relegations? players coming back after a break? newcomers? - in which priority? - Or just less players per group?)

What's the procedure for dropouts after season 2:
Devision winner drops out - does the runner-up get the rights of the winner?
Winner or runner-up drops out - does the 3rd get promoted?

What's the procedure for dropouts within a season (player dopping out so early the he is taken out of the ranking) - are there still 2 relegations or only 1?

Are all group winners promoted 2 levels (including C->A)?

How do promotions/relegations work at the border between 1 devision/level and 2 parallel devisions?

Are there any other questions I didn't think of?
      
Qorlas
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Re:League Season 3 discussion thread Mon, 02 March 2009 12:46
My answers to the questions to offer a starting point Smile


When does season 3 start (is the date according to Masimo's tournament calendar on)?

I would start the third season right after the first round of the two single tournaments (27.4) (with half the players free after the first round and then the games decreasing each week, more and more players will be available). I think the league should run all year with the only notable exception of the Nation Cup.

What is the ultimate date to play a season 2 match?

Easter 12.4 in my opinion. We should keep free the stars of SPWC and EMC

Will the current semi-pyramid mode stay?

I would mantain a big total of 8 levels as an upper limit. If more players will join we could add a second F division and so on.


How many players per group will we have in season 3 for the upper groups (stay with 7?, back to 8?, flexible depending on dropouts?)

Always 8. We can be more flexible in numbers for lower groups. For dropouts I think we should find an automatic rule. My idea: One players loses a level for each season skipped. In exmple an A player not playing season 2, in season 3 should be in Division B.


What's the procedure for empty spaces (more promotions? less relegations? players coming back after a break? newcomers? - in which priority? - Or just less players per group?)

Players coming back after a break if they have the "rights" to play in that division. In a second choice more promotions. Not less relegations or newcomers.

What's the procedure for dropouts after season 2:
Devision winner drops out - does the runner-up get the rights of the winner?
Winner or runner-up drops out - does the 3rd get promoted?


Yes and yes Smile

What's the procedure for dropouts within a season (player dopping out so early the he is taken out of the ranking) - are there still 2 relegations or only 1?

Only 1 in my opinion

Are all group winners promoted 2 levels (including C->A)?

Yes. But I would install an exception for C-->A. Only people from B should go to A.

How do promotions/relegations work at the border between 1 devision/level and 2 parallel devisions?

My idea. 3 relegations from F (case of season 2, I know it's tough but seems to be the more homogeneous thing with the other rules). 1st place: Playoff between the Winners of the 2 division G : Winner to E, Loser to F. Third place:Playoff between the two players at second place in Division G: winner promoted. Last place: Playoff between the two winners in Division H: Winner to F, Loser to G.

Are there any other questions I didn't think of?

How many relegations from A?

3

Limit where newcomers should be placed from season 3?

Division G or the first level with a couple of divisions, never higher of divison E.
      
Wildfire2099
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Re:League Season 3 discussion thread Mon, 02 March 2009 15:35
[quote title=dea1 wrote on Mon, 02 March 2009 05:56]Hi fellow League players,

season 1 is finally in the bag, and so is the lineup for season 2.
Once again many thanks to Wildfire for organizing this great event.

Some people mentioned in the various threads that some things ought to be discussed and communicated before the end of the next season.

So here's my questions/topics for a start:

When does season 3 start (is the date according to Masimo's tournament calendar on)? What is the ultimate date to play a season 2 match?

Since these are related...
7 Weeks full weeks from now would make the ending on 4/19.
Ideally, that would be the deadline, with the new season starting maybe 4/20. That would be assuming everyone gets stuff done on time. I'd say 5/1 is more realistic. The decision will be AFTER that.. do we run a season through the summer, (July and August, likely).. or wait after that until after NC.


Many ideas regarding people moving from one division to the next

Having 2 people go up and two people go down is how it will work... the size of the division and such doesn't matter. As we did this time, though, that has to be a starting point rather than a hard rule. To make sure everyone's playing about the same, I want to keep the division from 7-9. I'm not sure why people don't want to go from C to A exactly, but I can try to work that out if everyone thinks it should be that way. 8 is definately the goal.

New people go where they belong, subject to space considerations. If we were going to have a rule, I'd be OK with saying no new people in A or B. E is too low, though. I can't see putting someone in a division where everyone is 200 below them. The idea is to have good, competitive games, after all.

Colo suggested returning people come back 1 level below where they left, per season missed. I think that's a pretty good idea if its 1 or 2 seasons... more than that, they'll likely be treated as new.

The current plan is to keep 8 levels, and have more than 1 group as needed, depending on participation...I think 8 gives a narrow enough range to have competitive games, while not making it too impossible to move up quickly... If lots of people left, though, we'd have to change.

As far as dropouts mid-season go.. we've not got official rules for them. In many cases, the dropout will be considered last place, but that will depend how it goes.

As far as the oddness of having 2 groups in the bottom two... I have to sit down and figure that out. If new players keep signing up, the idea is having 2 group will sort of filter up. If the amount of players stays stable, though, it'll be tricky.

      
OLE Masimo
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Re:League Season 3 discussion thread Mon, 02 March 2009 18:44
Wildfire2099 schrieb am Mon, 02 March 2009 15:35


When does season 3 start (is the date according to Masimo's tournament calendar on)? What is the ultimate date to play a season 2 match?

Since these are related...
7 Weeks full weeks from now would make the ending on 4/19.
Ideally, that would be the deadline, with the new season starting maybe 4/20. That would be assuming everyone gets stuff done on time. I'd say 5/1 is more realistic. The decision will be AFTER that.. do we run a season through the summer, (July and August, likely).. or wait after that until after NC.



That would mean the start for season 3 is right in the first two weeks of SPWC/EMC. I can then say for myself that I definitely can`t play another league then. I admit that I like the league but I do not like the idea that tournaments collide that heavily. It is already a problem with FED CUP/fEUd cup, although there are fewer players involved.

When I put the tournament schedule in tikipedia I had the intention to offer a forum, where all tournament organizers can try to find a way to organize their events without too severe collisions with other events. I do find it quite disappointing that you, wildfire do not at all seem to care for "classic" events like SPWC or even our TAG tournaments that have been on schedule for a few years now. I can only speak for myself, but if you really plan on running the league season after season without break for at least the "majors" I will have to quit permanently - I feel sorry that you put us under pressure to decide which bigger events we want to play. I may add that out of 34 voters 84% stated that they are not able to play all offered tournaments.
I would really appreciate it if you would take into consideration that the league is NOT the only event organized for competitive ttr players.
      
Lucullupus
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  Re:League Season 3 discussion thread Mon, 02 March 2009 19:37
I agree completely with Masimo, one big match per week (averaged) is enough, otherwise you must, if you have two weeks absence for holidays, catch up 4 matches, which is nearly impossible...
Confused Confused Confused
So please disrupt the league at least for SPWC/EMC...
      
Wildfire2099
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Re:League Season 3 discussion thread Mon, 02 March 2009 19:57
I knew there was something I was forgetting about!

Yeah, definately we'll want to wait a bit then...Maybe the quarter or semi final week?

then it only effective a very small amount of people... the other side is I don't want to run into too many people's summer vacations.
      
dea1
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Re:League Season 3 discussion thread Mon, 02 March 2009 20:01
and here's my own opinion to the questions I listed
(intentionally separated from the questions)

When does season 3 start (is the date according to Masimo's tournament calendar on)?
I strongly favour staying in line with the tournament calendar.
League should not overlap with SPWC/EMC (at least not with the first rounds) and NC (at least not with the RR), otherwise either both events lose participants or one is dead.
As we already have the fEUd cup at the end of SPWC/EMC it shouldn't overlap with it at all this year.
For myself I certainly cannot play League AND SPWC/EMC simultaneously, and as I already registered for the latter I will resign from the League if it overlaps.
I suggest playing season 3 in summer and let season 4 start parallel to the semis in NC.

What is the ultimate date to play a season 2 match?
I think even April 19th is too late (for the 'overlap reason' given above). At least the groups with only 7 players should be able to make it till April 12th.

Will the current semi-pyramid mode stay?
Yes, with may 8 levels as suggested

How many players per group will we have in season 3 for the upper groups (stay with 7?, back to 8?, flexible depending on dropouts?)
I vote for 8, only have less in the bottom groups

What's the procedure for empty spaces (more promotions? less relegations? players coming back after a break? newcomers? - in which priority? - Or just less players per group?)
Not less players/group (see above).
Prio#1 Players coming back in appropriate group (drop them 1 level per missed season for max 2 seasons)
Prio#2 one more promotion
Prio#3 newcomers in an 'appropriate' group
Prio#4 one less relegation

What's the procedure for dropouts after season 2:
Devision winner drops out - does the runner-up get the rights of the winner?

no
Winner or runner-up drops out - does the 3rd get promoted?
no (i.e. not automatically - very often he would due to above priorities)

What's the procedure for dropouts within a season (player dopping out so early the he is taken out of the ranking) - are there still 2 relegations or only 1?
only 1

Are all group winners promoted 2 levels (including C->A)?
slight preference for not C to A (as I think it's a lot easier to win C than to finish 1st or 2nd in B) but I don't care too much.

How do promotions/relegations work at the border between 1 devision/level and 2 parallel devisions?
2 relegations, 1 promotion (originally)
as there will certainly be dropouts somewhere above (that will propagate down) I guess we will almost always end up with 2 promotions anyway. If there's only space for one out of the two groups the higher score wins (or let them play a decider). If there's none that's the season of bad luck.

How many relegations from A?
3 if C-> A promotion is possible (because in that case we need it), otherwise 2

Limit where newcomers should be placed from season 3?
appropriate following the priorities for the use of empty spaces listed above

[Updated on: Mon, 02 March 2009 20:02]

      
toutoune - Morgon
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Re:League Season 3 discussion thread Mon, 02 March 2009 20:02
League vs SPWC/ECM
To be honest, I think SPWC/ECM are less interesting since League, I can live without SPWC. Only Nation Cup can't be replaced.

What is the ultimate date to play a season 2 match?
The deadline is given from the start of the season (1 game per week)

Will the current semi-pyramid mode stay?
I personly prefer the straight divisions, not pyramidal

How many players per group will we have in season 3 for the upper groups (stay with 7?, back to 8?, flexible depending on dropouts?)
flexible is probably needed, ideally 8

What's the procedure for empty spaces (more promotions? less relegations? players coming back after a break? newcomers? - in which priority? - Or just less players per group?)
newcomers starts at the bottom
after a break, you start again from the bottom


What's the procedure for dropouts after season 2:
Devision winner drops out - does the runner-up get the rights of the winner?
Winner or runner-up drops out - does the 3rd get promoted?
Winner has 2 division promotion
Runner up One division promotion
Same for the 2 loosers
Exception for Division 1, 2 and 3: every player has to gain is ticket for division 1 in division 2
In case of drop out, priority to the people in upper division


What's the procedure for dropouts within a season (player dopping out so early the he is taken out of the ranking) - are there still 2 relegations or only 1?
same as previous, priority for players in upper divisions

Are all group winners promoted 2 levels (including C->A)?
NO

Are there any other questions I didn't think of?
With all respect to TD, as long as a case is not covered by the rules, he can't decide alone, but through some voting system.
      
Goscha
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Re:League Season 3 discussion thread Mon, 02 March 2009 23:00
I only agree with Masimo during Nations Cup.
But SPWC, please, think twice.

Lets say we play SPWC with 128 players.

In the first week 64 players will be elimininated,
in the 2nd week 32 more and in the third week 16 more.

Means, after 3 weeks 112 from 128 players are out!!!!

And the league schedule is totally flexible.

Lets start the 3rd league directly after the 2nd and lets give it 3 weeks more.
Even the 2 finalists have enough time and flexibility to
play the league then.
      
Colo
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Re:League Season 3 discussion thread Tue, 03 March 2009 06:38
I suggest to:

- set the deadline for season 2 to sunday, april 19 (thats 7 weeks);
- keep that deadline strict and rule all matches not played until that day along the state-of-the-art rules published >here ;
- set the deadline for registration to season 3 to monday, april 20;
- make registering obligational also for current members (as it was handled this time) and use a forum thread for it.

I also suggest to always take a short break of maybe one or two weeks between seasons, to allow for:
- celebrating the winners, bragging, chit-chat;
- ruling eventually not played matches;
- setting up the new divisions (whatever structure and rules will be decided till then, it takes a moment to do that);
- finalizing the tables/match pages etc. of the old season;
- allowing for possible protests about wrong results in these pages;
- publishing the divisions ahead of time;
- allowing for possible protest about the new seasons setup;
- setting up tables/match pages for the new season;
- and last not least to allow for possible quick tournaments of whatever kind, my porposal would be a "season heroes" QT (watch out, I might come up with such an idea one of the next days).

Taken this, I suggest to:
- start season 3 on first of May (spwc down to 32 players);
- maybe let season 3 last till end of June (a bit more time due to overlaps with spwc and feud cup);
- take a "summer break" thereafter.

0.02
Colo

      
Wildfire2099
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Re:League Season 3 discussion thread Tue, 03 March 2009 17:45
I think 32 people left in SPWC is still a bit too many. While I personally don't think it's a big deal, if several people skip a season because of it we all lose, you know? I'm incline to wait until the quarterfinals... however, that would but the end of season 3 toward the end of June...

I'm torn about the finishing deadline thing... on the one hand, I want everyone to play their games, and not have forfeits... but on the other, I don't want to coddle people who procrastinate.

I think I'm gonna start up a thread about that in particular... see what everyone thinks Smile

      
UEG xbomanx
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Re:League Season 3 discussion thread Mon, 09 March 2009 23:58
Hi wildfire and hi all,

I am a League player and i worried me about closed games.

For me it is fun to play in league but its for me also fun (too)
to observe some interesting matches between 2 opponents in League. ( especially in decisional games ). Razz

I applier to stop closed games.

Please review your decision about this. I think its more attractive for all of us.

Many thanks for organizing this great event.

Greets
xbomanx Very Happy
      
Wildfire2099
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Re:League Season 3 discussion thread Tue, 10 March 2009 16:54
I am greatly in favor of open games, for the reasons you said. I think it's really great when there are 'fans' and really adds to the experience.

That being said, not everyone know each other, and there are some trust issues out there... I don't feel comfortable making it a RULE, and thus possibly alienating players.

If there was some sort of issue about t, I'd recommend simply doing half and half... if someone's really insistent about it, then let me know and we'll talk.

      
SMP-bassie
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New season divisions line-up Sat, 14 March 2009 22:26
Here is my .02. It is long but it is worth reading.

Basic Principles

I think the structure of the league should not follow a fixed number of levels but the number of players should dictate the number of levels. I think the top level should be one division of 8 and all the next levels should have two parallel divisions with each 8 players. This is a perfect match of flexibility towards many more (or fewer!) players, fast promotion/relegation for players who are placed at an inappropriate level, and similar strength within the groups.

For the keys to division scheduling I propose a holistic approach. I think it is not possible to assess rules for newcomers, reentering players and leaving players separately since they are interdependent. All proposals so far will fail and call for subjective decisions by one or a few people in case the group of players will significantly change from one period to another. For instance, what happens if 5 people from Division A leave? What happens when 6 new 1700+ players join? This will lead to discussions any time a new league starts and I think this would not support the continuity of this fantastic idea. My system avoids this problem. The system motivates stayers - newbies have the least advantageous position, though are still starting at a reasonable level. Players with league history will be scored on their league results and not on their rating. And I don't think it is difficult! Have a look but move to the "Exciting example" immediately if you want to see how it works.

System

Step 1. All players eligible for the coming season are split into newbies (not played in the past two seasons), returners (did not play this season but played at least one of the two seasons before), quitters and stayers.
Step 2a. The quitters are assigned a returning division in case they return one or two seasons later. This is their current division if they finished in one of the two top spots, two divisions lower if they finished in one of the lowest two spots, or one division lower if they finished in the middle. Exception: Only stayers are eligible for level A! So in case a quitter came in first or second in Division A, his returning level is B i.e. Division B1 or B2. These players will be ignored for the remainder of the procedure.
Step 2b. The highest rated newbie gets the lowest spot in division B1, as long as his rating equals or exceeds the average rating of other players in that level. If not, he will follow the algorithm described in Step 4c. Other newbies are put in rating order forming the Newbies List.
Step 2c. Returners get a fixed spot in the division that was determined in step 2a. If this leads to a worse position than treating them as newbies (see step 4), they are treated as newbies.
Step 3. All stayers are scored and sorted on the basis of two criteria in the Stayers List, namely the sum of 3a and 3b:
a. Their current division (zero for the lowest and 2 points more for each higher level; at the end of Season 2, we should use 1.5 since we have no parallel divisions yet in the subtop)
b. Their average score in the current season.
Step 4. From top down, all divisions are filled in the following way.
a. The 8 players with the best score in the Stayers List are allocated to Division A.
b. Returners with level B rights are assigned the lowest of the 16 spots for this level. The remaining spots but one from top down are for the next eligible players on the Stayers List. If the best newbie has a rating that exceeds the average of the 15 current players in level B, he is added at the lowest spot (he replaces possible returners, who move up one spot). If not, the next eligible player from the Stayers List is added. These 16 ordered players are now allocated to divisions B1 (1-4-5-8-9-12-13-16) and B2 (2-3-6-7-10-11-14-15).
c. The remaining levels are filled as follows.
1. The returners with rights on this level are added at the bottom.
2. If the next eligible player on the Stayers List has a higher rating than the next eligible player on the Newbies List, he is added from top down. If not: if the rating of the eligible newbie exceeds the average rating of the current players in this level, he is added at the bottom, otherwise the eligible stayer is added from top down. This procedure continues until 16 players have been selected and the next level can be filled. If after the last full level of 16 players 9-15 players remain, they should form two parallel groups. 5-8 remaining players form one group, and with 1-4 remaining players the above divisions are decreased to 7 players until one group of 5 remaining players can be formed.

Complicated? I will take you by the hand using the transition from season 1 to season 2 as an example. Mind you, this is no criticism towards the current allocation from players to levels! As a matter of fact, you will see that apart from the different structure the choices that my algorithm makes do not differ significantly from Wildfire's choices. The main difference (advantage!) is the generality: it can be applied automatically to almost any number of newbies, returners, quitters and stayers without a need for subjective choices.

Exciting example

Step 1. 22 newbies, no returners, 9 quitters (not counting Mason and monstermaster since they have no final score, and not counting Wuschel for reasons we now all know. In fact, also Mudda and Jac should be added here since they quit at the beginning of season 2), 53 stayers.
Step 2a. Pegaso will be assigned to level C when he returns within 2 seasons (according to the A-B1-B2-C1-C2 etc structure, he ended in the middle of the B level and will therefore be allocated one level lower i.e. Level C). Other players: Anu -> B, Patterson -> C, Sauvignon -> C, Masimo -> C (since his 4th position in Division D equals 2nd position in Division C1/C2), White Tiger -> D, Sysyphus -> E, Mary Mary -> F, Master Yoda -> F.
Step 2b. 2Cutter is the highest rated newbie and will therefore be the last player in Division B1 if her rating is high enough. See tickipedia for the order of the remaining newbies.
Step 2c. Not applicable, but clear I hope.
Step 3. The Stayers List:

Deveric 16.14 (= 7 levels above lowest level = 7*1.5 points + 5.64 average score)
Schwen 16.07
Zimo 15.43
Cristiano Ronaldo 15.36
daedin 14.64
MiguelMarques 14.64
PapiXulu 14.07
deep_blue 13.86
toutoune 13.71
Muddaihrsohn 13.64
goscha 13.43
dea1 13.43
drake 13.3
U 31 12.5
chrismmm 12.42
Hecki 11.71
Pammes 11.57
Olle Boll 11.5
xbomanx 11.07
bassie 11.07
wasdenn 10.71
Colo 10.71
RMarkes 10.5
Rufuz 10.5
suburu 9.86
Sookie 9.58
Zeno 9.5
stemayf 9.43
(Gang) Nomade_ 9.43
lucullupus 8.71
dizz 8.5
wostwuist 8.25
foudecoasters 7.93
aralai 7.79
Jac_ 7.25
hojita-no-go 7.21
onyx puffin 7.07
Baron_ 6.85
xsandrax 6.8
Robin Hood 6.79
John_ 6.79
Marschall Vorwärts 6.71
Shono 6.43
Qorlas 6.35
Tyrana 5.79
U 32 5.71
Valkama 5.57
speedy=ironhorse 5.5
Zaco2 5
Technikerin 4.79
snuggle 4
fczzsc 2.42
RailBandit 1.36

Step 4a. Straightforward. Division A would exist of Deveric, Schwen, Zimo, Cristiano Ronaldo, daedin, MiguelMarques, PapiXulu and deep_blue. This compares to the current layout, with PapiXulu as logical extra player to get 8 players.
Step 4b. No returning players, so the next fifteen eligible players from the Stayers List can be allocated to level B: toutoune, Muddaihrsohn, Goscha, dea1, drake, U 31, chrismmm, Hecki, Pammes, Olle Boll, xbomanx, bassie, wasdenn, Colo and Rmarkes. The average rating of these players was 3737 at the measuring point (please verify), which is lower than 2Cutter's rating (3798), so she is added to this level. Division B1 would thus consist of toutoune, dea1, drake, Hecki, Pammes, bassie, wasdenn and 2Cutter, and Division B2 would consist of Muddaihrsohn, Goscha, U 31, chrismmm, Olle Boll, xbomanx, Colo and RMarkes. Again, this is similar to wildfire's choice, with bassie, wasdenn and Colo as additional players resulting from the fact that this structure has 8 players per division instead of 7.
Step 4c. No returners, so we look at the eligible players from the Stayers List (Rufuz, 3693) and the Newbies List (youki, 3762). Since youki is higher rated and there are no players yet assigned to this level, he enters first. The next eligible newbie is kostas123 (3670), so Rufuz is the next player entering at the top of the list. After Rufuz comes suburu (3649). Since he is higher rated, kostas123 would now enter the list, but since the average rating of the current players on level C is higher than his (3728, please verify), suburu enters the list just after Rufuz. We continue this way until we have 16 players in order. This leads to the following divisions: C1 with Rufuz, Zeno, stemayf, dizz, wostwuist, Jac, hojita and maia and C2 with suburu, Sookie, Nomade, lucullupus, foudecoasters, aralai, youki and kostas (please verify). Here the example stops, feel free to fill in the remaining groups. Since we would have 3 players left after filling level E, divisions E1 and E2 are restricted to 7 players each to construct a level F division with 5 players.

If no one can produce a simpler proposal - both objective and fair! - to assign players to divisions, we should use this!

Bas
      
dea1
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Re:New season divisions line-up Sun, 15 March 2009 12:42
bassie schrieb am Sat, 14 March 2009 22:26

If no one can produce a simpler proposal ...


Laughing Rolling Eyes Laughing

After forcing my simple mind to read it twice here's my thoughts on it:
Yes, it is objective and fair.
But I would miss the direct promotions/relegations, which I consider the 'spice' of the League.

You finish top 2 - you go up
You finish bottom 2 - you go down
THAT is simple, and that's what we enjoy fighting for.

A mathematical approach - even if it's perfect - just doesn't provide that.
The majority doesn't read it Shocked , part of those who do don't understand it Twisted Evil , and those who do know that they know nothing, before alle groups have finished and all participants for the next season have signed in. Crying or Very Sad

Of course you are right, Bassie, that all rules based on the 'really simple' 2up 2down approach will eventually fail if too many people drop out (tons of newbies with 1700+ are not my concern - A, they won't come, B, if they did, so what - they have to take the spot they get)

But hey, we have a TD who can handle that (and did it well last time) - when the rules aren't sufficient he has to use his instinctive feeling and take the blame Twisted Evil also very simple Laughing
      
ACP Miguel
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Re:New season divisions line-up Sun, 15 March 2009 14:38
i read it threewice Wink i would say logical not simple Smile

i like the fuzz about top2 places. i liked season1.
new comers enter in low division.
missing one season u dropp 2 levels (since dropping one would be few since u could also be bottom 2 playing)
top2 climb one level bottom 2 dropp
if the 1st or 2nd of one group decides not to play the 3rd place gets promoted.

i think this would setlle 99%.

forgott one special rule i get to start all my games when start button appears Smile

[Updated on: Sun, 15 March 2009 14:39]

      
Zeno
Senior Member
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Posts: 582
Registered:
February 2006
Re:New season divisions line-up Sun, 15 March 2009 18:28
Today in my country is a very special day, Selection Sunday. We are about to pick the tourney grid for the NCAA Basketball Tournament. This is done, behind closed doors, by a committee, and there is a lot of interest in who will get in, and where they will be seeded. Now the committee tries to roughly rank order teams, but also wants to avoid early matchups between members of the same conference, and they can't let teams play on their home floor. They have to make sure that teams like BYU play on the Thursday/Saturday side of the brackets, and all sorts of other considerations. Still, they are guided by a few numbers, one of the most important being the RPI, a measure of how good your record is factoring in opponent strength.

Even if we don't accept bassie's approach, I think he has given us a very interesting new statistic, which wildfire can use in helping to assign positions. We can call it the Best Augmented Score stat.

One minor change, should be made to bassie's approach to new members. He implicitly assumes that the average ELO of the higher division is higher. It may well be that division C gets a higher ELO than B, and so, while a newcomer might have a higher ELO than the B average, she should not be eligible for B if her ELO is below the C average. Admittedly, it would take a strange series of coincidences for this to occur, but stuff happens.
      
Wildfire2099
Senior Member

Posts: 654
Registered:
June 2005
Re:New season divisions line-up Mon, 16 March 2009 15:52
I agree with both Zeno and Dea here... a system like Bassie came up with is great from a fairness standpoint, but it's not logical... most people (myself included) want to be able to look at the table and know what's going on, it makes the games more meaningful and exciting.

OTOH, that's an excellent proposal for helping figure out how to adjust things when they need to be adjusted for drop outs.

      
Koel Player
Member

Posts: 97
Registered:
April 2005
Re:League Season 3 discussion thread Mon, 18 May 2009 12:21
Bas

I am not sure why I am not in the 'stayers' list so if you made a mistake... maybe check your system?

My comments on the league:

* Season 2 line up I thought was a bit weird as 'holes' were filled up by some newbies. I think newbies need to start at the bottom end of story. Returners should start at the bottom as well. How do you explain to the winner of F that there are holes in B and D division that are filled up for season 3 with players that did not even play season 2?

* It will take any player from the lower division several seasons to work himself up to the top, even if he ends his division in first or second place every time. How is a player encouraged if winning does not lead to winning?

* I think the moves are too conservative. Above 1600 points most players can win against most players. The difference in between 1600 and 1700 points is either 1) a streak of winning luck in multis, or 2) a consistent NC mentality in each and every game playing slow and calculated as if its the last game on earth. Some people are interested in the fun and random play and rank 1630 in stead of 1685 on average. Therefor I maintain that at least half of the players in the total league can bring exciting matches and produce upsets, why not give them a chance? I think we spend too much time looking at ELO to determine tourney setups.

* Bad ethics should lead to disqualification or start at the bottom. People that do not show up on time, don't return PM's, dont play their matches in time should be penalized. They cost us time and energy we'd rather spend in other activities. Also people raving and ranting when they lose should have the same consequences. Not only do they spoil the atmosphere but also they end up giving points away when they quit prematurely, not show up etc. Often this happens in the latter stages of the tourney so the players that faithfully showed up early to play against them get punished as they don't get the free points.

* the 5-2 rule in case of forfait is not fair to players that did play against the forfaiting player and scored a lower result.


Just some random thoughts before I get on a plane.

At the end of the day I'll play gladly in the place I am put in.



Koel
      
Colo
Senior Member

Posts: 268
Registered:
June 2007
Re:League Season 3 discussion thread Mon, 18 May 2009 18:32
@Koel

you digged out an rather old thread, currently more postings concerning setup of season 3 are found in another thread

therefor only short here: agree with newbies at bottom (very few exceptions, never ever higher than C), agree with penalties for not showing etc (we already do that), there is no 5-2 rule for forfeits, the rule is a bit more complex and possible results are 0-4, 0-5, 0-6, 0-7. See > here.

[Updated on: Mon, 18 May 2009 18:35]

      
Koel Player
Member

Posts: 97
Registered:
April 2005
Re:League Season 3 discussion thread Mon, 18 May 2009 21:46
ok thanks. sorry. I knew i wasnt smart enough for this game...

Very Happy
      
    
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