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rasmussen81
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Re:Memoir '44 Battle Map Volume 2: Tigers in the Snow Thu, 26 March 2009 16:29
Achtung Panzer wrote on Thu, 26 March 2009 08:14

"I would guess that the rules for Tiger tanks aren't going to be very complex"

Perhaps we'll just be swapping one of the four models in a heavy / special tank unit for a Tiger model?! Smile




Possible, but I'll bet it's somewhere between the two extremes...not as complex as new range and dice rolls but not as simple as just replacing the current elite figures. Cool
      
ad79
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Re:Memoir '44 Battle Map Volume 2: Tigers in the Snow Thu, 26 March 2009 17:36
rasmussen81 wrote on Thu, 26 March 2009 16:29

Achtung Panzer wrote on Thu, 26 March 2009 08:14

"I would guess that the rules for Tiger tanks aren't going to be very complex"

Perhaps we'll just be swapping one of the four models in a heavy / special tank unit for a Tiger model?! Smile




Possible, but I'll bet it's somewhere between the two extremes...not as complex as new range and dice rolls but not as simple as just replacing the current elite figures. Cool


I hope they go more towards the complex end of this scale, and give the Tiger unit some difference in either range of fire, movement or dice used.
I don`t think they will make it better in all areas, but maybe something like the japanese infantry with Tiger units at full strength getting one additional die.

I have another question. I have ordered the Hedgerow Hell battle map and would like to use the Supply trucks in regular scenarios too. Does anyone know of any regular scenarios that use the Supply trucks?


      
rasmussen81
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Re:Memoir '44 Battle Map Volume 2: Tigers in the Snow Thu, 26 March 2009 18:20
ad79 wrote on Thu, 26 March 2009 09:36


I have another question. I have ordered the Hedgerow Hell battle map and would like to use the Supply trucks in regular scenarios too. Does anyone know of any regular scenarios that use the Supply trucks?


I haven't seen any (official or From the Front) that use the Supply Trucks. There might be some out there From the Front that use them, but I haven't seen them.

The problem is that not everyone owns the Hedgerow Hell pack so if DoW creates an official map that uses the Trucks, people who don't own it will complain because they would have to buy the pack to play the new official scenario.

Maybe an online release that uses the trucks would work because then players wouldn't have to pay for the scenario...they could just play it if they have the trucks! Rolling Eyes That could work.
      
ad79
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Re:Memoir '44 Battle Map Volume 2: Tigers in the Snow Thu, 26 March 2009 23:12
Thanks for the reply, rasmussen81. I was kinda expecting no official scenarios, so I was mainly thinking SFTF, but hopefully DoW releases some scenarios online that uses this unit.

If others have seen any SFTF using supply trucks, please let me know.
      
rasmussen81
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Re:Memoir '44 Battle Map Volume 2: Tigers in the Snow Thu, 26 March 2009 23:39
ad79 wrote on Thu, 26 March 2009 15:12

Thanks for the reply, rasmussen81. I was kinda expecting no official scenarios, so I was mainly thinking SFTF, but hopefully DoW releases some scenarios online that uses this unit.

If others have seen any SFTF using supply trucks, please let me know.


We should try making one! It could be one of the battles from Norway...I'll look into it. Cool
      
ad79
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Re:Memoir '44 Battle Map Volume 2: Tigers in the Snow Fri, 27 March 2009 00:25
I`m with you there. Let me know your thoughts by mail and I`ll help where I can.

My Hedgerow Hell map has shiped and should arrive in the mail within a couple of days, so then I can start using them and trying out Overlord format.

      
boersma8
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Re:Memoir '44 Battle Map Volume 2: Tigers in the Snow Fri, 27 March 2009 14:36
rasmussen81 wrote on Thu, 26 March 2009 14:49

TheMarshalUK wrote on Thu, 26 March 2009 03:07


If i recall correctly King Tigers came into service in 1944 on the eastern front. The main change over the Tiger I was the main guns caliber which allowed it to fire AP shells at greater distance with a slight loss of accuracy at extreme ranges due to the need for targeting correction.

So relating this to memoir 44 it could see the gun fire increase in damage at short distance and the overall range increasing to maybe 4 hexes or more but with a drop in damage at extreme distance. Not sure they would increase the damage at short range to 4 but maybe it will drop to 2 and 1 at 4 and 5 hexes... Well just wildly guessing Smile

I dont care i just want Tiger Tanks Very Happy


I would look for elegant and simple rules that recreate a historical effect, just like the current rules.



How about: It takes two hits to eliminate a single Tiger tank figure and possibly an extra die when attacking enemy armour?

That's how i'd do it, but then again, who am I?...
      
TheMarshalUK
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Re:Memoir '44 Battle Map Volume 2: Tigers in the Snow Fri, 27 March 2009 15:23
player71615 wrote on Fri, 27 March 2009 13:36


How about: It takes two hits to eliminate a single Tiger tank figure and possibly an extra die when attacking enemy armour?

That's how i'd do it, but then again, who am I?...



Acutally i like the sound of that.. In my mind im recalling Kellys heroeos and Donald Sutherland as Sgt Oddball with his Sherman in that great scene. when he's asked to take on 3 tigers...

It's a wasted trip baby. Nobody said nothing about locking horns with no Tigers.

Big Joe: Hey look, you just keep them Tigers busy and we'll take care of the rest.

Oddball: The only way I got to keep them Tigers busy is to LET THEM SHOOT HOLES IN ME!

Crapgame: Hey, Oddball, this is your hour of glory. And you're chickening out!

Oddball: To a New Yorker like you, a hero is some type of weird sandwich, not some nut who takes on three Tigers.

Kelly: Nobody's asking you to be a hero.

Oddball: No? Then YOU sit up in that turret baby.

Kelly: No, because you're gonna be up there, baby, and I'll be right outside showing you which way to go.

Oddball: Yeah?

Kelly: Yeah.

Oddball: Crazy... I mean like, so many positive waves... maybe we can't lose, you're on!

Laughing

They ended up concocting a "trap it the tight streets get right up behind it and maybe that will kill it " plan Smile

Ok so my point is by making the Tiger a 2 hit kill would mean you would have to get in close with troops for a full dice compliment and other tanks would need to get an extra hit to reflect the superior armour.

[Updated on: Fri, 27 March 2009 15:27]

      
tank commander
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Re:Memoir '44 Battle Map Volume 2: Tigers in the Snow Fri, 27 March 2009 21:08
The Tiger II also had thicker armor than the Tiger I. Also while the Tiger I had a few sloped plates, the Tiger II incorporated sloping of all the armor surfaces. Sloping did two things. First it increased the protection of a armor plate to a greater degree than if that plate was straight up. For example a 100mm sloped at a certain degree might be the equivalent of 110mm armor that is not sloped. One can see the benefit that sloping the armor has. It also can help deflect shots. So a shot that would penetrate non-sloped armor may ricochet off (best case) or partially penetrate sloped armor.
      
gp_man
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Re:Memoir '44 Battle Map Volume 2: Tigers in the Snow Sun, 29 March 2009 07:09
awesome!
      
D0C08
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Re:Memoir '44 Battle Map Volume 2: Tigers in the Snow Mon, 30 March 2009 15:59
Tigers! My favourite tank...now I can play Wittman scenarios. Very Happy
      
Gilgamesh
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Re:Memoir '44 Battle Map Volume 2: Tigers in the Snow Tue, 31 March 2009 11:53
Hi,

http://www.boardgamegeek.com/thread/392992

      
PanzerRunes
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Re:Memoir '44 Battle Map Volume 2: Tigers in the Snow Tue, 31 March 2009 19:59
rasmussen81 wrote on Thu, 26 March 2009 10:20


The problem is that not everyone owns the Hedgerow Hell pack so if DoW creates an official map that uses the Trucks, people who don't own it will complain because they would have to buy the pack to play the new official scenario.



This will be true of any of the battle maps that offer new figures... Tigers in the snow included.

If someone doesn't purchase Tigers in the Snow and DoW publishes official scenarios utilizing tigers there will most likely be push back and much discontent from the community.

DoW is taking M'44 down the dangerous collectibles path... They would be wise to make the trucks, tigers and any future releases available separately or they will risk alienating their customer base. M'44 is a great game and system, I would hate to see them do to M'44 what they did to BattleLore.

DoW is already missing the boat ($$,$$$.$$) as many people have gone to Perrin, Pendragon and Minifigs for expanding their customized armies. Unit packs could be a good money maker for them.

      
yangtze
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Re:Memoir '44 Battle Map Volume 2: Tigers in the Snow Tue, 31 March 2009 20:21
I see what you're saying Panzerrunes, but Eric has already stated publicly that he has no problem with people buying figures from other manufacturers if they don't want the battlemaps, but do want to play with trucks and Tigers etc. (no time to find the link to this, sorry, but you will probably find it with a quick search). So I honestly don't think that's either an issue for DoW financially, or a sign that they're heading down the collectible path. Eric explained that the battlemap series has a specific purpose as far as DoW are concerned, again, the details of which he outlined in the posting that I can't find (doh). I think the idea was that they are primarily promotional items to be used at demos because of their quick set up time.

The M44 game itself has absolutely no degree of 'collectability', in the classic Magic (don't use the 't' word or they'll sue you) sense, e.g. 'I bought this Shivan Dragon for eighty quid and now I'm gonna kick yer butt'. Of course, if you want to buy everything released for M44 it could get expensive, and people enjoy collecting, but I don't see any intent to rip off the punters here.
      
yangtze
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Re:Memoir '44 Battle Map Volume 2: Tigers in the Snow Tue, 31 March 2009 20:26
Hey PR, on your last point I agree entirely - I'd love to see DoW/ Perrin army packs for all armies and periods in the war.

Is the price of a box of 50 or so 1/72 soldiers still around £5? If DoW could put out a 42(?) soldier plus 18(?) tank set for less than £10 I'd be interested. I might even collect Smile
      
PanzerRunes
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Re:Memoir '44 Battle Map Volume 2: Tigers in the Snow Wed, 01 April 2009 10:43
yangtze wrote on Tue, 31 March 2009 11:26


Hey PR, on your last point I agree entirely - I'd love to see DoW/ Perrin army packs for all armies and periods in the war.

Is the price of a box of 50 or so 1/72 soldiers still around £5? If DoW could put out a 42(?) soldier plus 18(?) tank set for less than £10 I'd be interested. I might even collect Smile



I would like to see that too for under $15USD but considering DoW's track record in its production sculpts I am not so sure I would venture into buying an DoW army pack... the accuracy and detail would need to be taken up a couple notches.
I understand that each figure is just an iconic representation of a larger unit, but when paying $30USD+ for each expansion I would appreciate a little more attention to the component details. (Remember you're talking three scuplts, an infantryman, tank and artillery piece, not the 7 to 15 poses of a 1/72 army pack)
Continuing to be offered sub par components (my opinion when compared to other 1/72 and n-scale products) is what is causing me to scrutinize the M'44 releases I purchase.

I hope I don't sound disgruntled because I do really enjoy the game and have invested a lot of time and money into it.

BTW, for a 42-50 pack of infantry it will cost between $5-$12USD depending on the manufacturer and vendors markup.

      
Znapperhead
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Re:Memoir '44 Battle Map Volume 2: Tigers in the Snow Thu, 09 April 2009 18:19
wow... very cool! Very Happy
      
PlanBee
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Re:Memoir '44 Battle Map Volume 2: Tigers in the Snow Fri, 10 April 2009 13:49
Here is a suggestion for rules for Tigers. Dont want to make it too complicated, so here goes. This has been playtested once, and it does work OK, but clearly neds a little more testing.

Tigers didnt fight as one unit, they were ususaly part of a company, one tiger and 2 or 3 Panthers (ideally) or more often Panzer IV's (the tank in the original game)

So replace a normal tank with a tiger, giving 1 tiger and 2 Pzr IV's. While there is a Tiger in the unit, it moves 2 and fires at a range of 4. This reflects the Tigers slower speed and manuevraibility and its better firepower at distance.

To reflect the Tiger's better armour, while there is a Tiger in the unit, the unit only takes hits on a throw of a tank (ignoring grenades).

In any given roll the grenades thrown are considered first. So a throw of a grenade and a tank would only destoy the Tiger tank, as the grenade would have no effect when it is considered first.

Once the tiger is taken out it, normal speed, range and vulnerability resumes for the remnants of the unit.

This rule will allow the Tiger units to act effectively in defence, which is of course largely how they were used, with a few notable exceptions.

The other advantage of this approach, is the 6 tanks that come with the map would allow you 6 Tiger tank units.

Happy Easter everyone
      
Caboose
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Re:Memoir '44 Battle Map Volume 2: Tigers in the Snow Sun, 12 April 2009 18:00
Did get to play with the Tigers yesterday at a demo here in town. Just seems that they do get popped quite easily.

As for how to fix that issue, I don't know but just seems like they would be easy targets. Sure the same could be true for the monsters in Battlelore (since it on the same line). Maybe what needs to be done perhaps is have LESS tiger tank squadrons on the map but for each tiger tank, have them maybe be 2 units.

Just my thoughts..but not necessarily the correct ones.

Cab
      
Hawkmoon von Köln
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Re:Memoir '44 Battle Map Volume 2: Tigers in the Snow Mon, 13 April 2009 20:12
Here we got them at the Open of France Razz Laughing
Seriously, it was fantastic !
Hope that next year more people of the english forum (like my brother in arms Sergey "Longbearder" from Russia who was there in Tours with his wife) will come to France !
Greetz from Le Mans Cool
      
rooster5
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Re:Memoir '44 Battle Map Volume 2: Tigers in the Snow Mon, 13 April 2009 20:17
If you want to learn about Tiger tanks, watch the old classic Kelly's Heroes. Laughing As far as rules go for the new tigers, my guess will be no hits on grenades, and maybe a plus one range at reduced dice.

[Updated on: Mon, 13 April 2009 20:32]

      
Caboose
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Re:Memoir '44 Battle Map Volume 2: Tigers in the Snow Tue, 14 April 2009 00:49
rooster5 wrote on Mon, 13 April 2009 12:17

If you want to learn about Tiger tanks, watch the old classic Kelly's Heroes. Laughing As far as rules go for the new tigers, my guess will be no hits on grenades, and maybe a plus one range at reduced dice.


Nope - that is not the rules.

The rules are they act like tanks for attacks. On attacks against them, any hits on the first are rerolled again. And if a grenade is rolled on the 2nd roll, the tiger is gone.

Basically how you kill a creature in Battlelore...

Cab

[Updated on: Tue, 14 April 2009 00:50]

      
Thuddeus
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Re:Memoir '44 Battle Map Volume 2: Tigers in the Snow Tue, 27 April 2010 08:01
Caboose wrote on Sun, 12 April 2009 09:00

Maybe what needs to be done perhaps is have LESS tiger tank squadrons on the map but for each tiger tank, have them maybe be 2 units.
Cab


That was my thought as well. If a Tiger unit had 2 tanks, the unit would be truly menacing, but a single tank is just too easy to kill, even with the crit hit rule.

[Updated on: Tue, 27 April 2010 08:02]

      
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