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Wildfire2099
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World TTR League Season 3 Divisions Tue, 19 May 2009 03:48
OK so here's the line up.. there's quite a few less people, so there are now only 6 levels, so there was some extra promotions and whatnot.

To cover summer vacations and what not, the season will go until Aug. 1st.


Division A:
dea1
Schwen
Hecki
Deveric
Toutoune
Daedin
PapiXulu
deep_blue

Division B:
Drake*
2Cutter
Colo
Elric
Goscha
MiguelMarkes
Rmarkes
Xbomanx

Division C:
Suburu
Wostwuist
Maia03
Pammes
U 31
Rufuz
Sauvignon57
Foude

Division D:
dizz
Olle Boll
Koei Player
Onyx Puffin
Stemayf
Der Neusser
Marschall V
Requiem for a Dream

Division E:
Lucullupus
U32
Jmulcai
Technikerin
Valkama
acemandope*
Hrundi_Bakshi
RocketBlizzard

Open Division 1:
JenAck
Zugle
Karin1961
cat_
Snuggle
Iron31
Gyuri
Ommie
Fczzsc

Open Division 2:
Toffer14
Snowstar
Wildfire2099
Tyrana
Teddy1
Ironhorse1
Xennos
Nomade_
Qorlas

[Updated on: Tue, 19 May 2009 22:35]

      
ATN Drake
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Re:World TTR League Season 3 Divisions Tue, 19 May 2009 07:56
I didn't see in the rules anywhere.

First game is random for who starts, then alternate, and last game is again random.

      
foudecoasters - Cerdon
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Re:World TTR League Season 3 Divisions Tue, 19 May 2009 11:18
PROPOSITION OF CALENDAR FOR ALL DIVISIONS HERE :

http://www.daysofwonder.com/fr/msg/?goto=165593#msg_165593

[Updated on: Tue, 19 May 2009 11:35]

      
Wildfire2099
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Re:World TTR League Season 3 Divisions Tue, 19 May 2009 15:51
Drake is absolutely correct as far as starting player goes:

1st game should be random

games 2-6 should alternate, so that each player starts 3 times

game 7 should be random

I thought we put that on the wiki somewhere, but if not, here it is Smile
      
Colo
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Re:World TTR League Season 3 Divisions Tue, 19 May 2009 16:50
we never agreed on that rule so far, at least I did not note, but it makes sense to use the button, I agree

So I will update the rules page.
      
LMT Hecki
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Re:World TTR League Season 3 Divisions Tue, 19 May 2009 18:44
Hecki vs. PapiXulu

next Sunday 21:30 CEST
      
ACP Miguel
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Re:World TTR League Season 3 Divisions Tue, 19 May 2009 19:25
cant understand how the players were set up.
cant understand which were the rules, the decisive factors, the way u decide how to group the players, how many climb division how many dropp.

it would be nice that u posted i made this and that and explain your reasons. honestly my desire to play season 3 dropped after watching how the line ups were made in several groups
      
*zufuR
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Re:World TTR League Season 3 Divisions Tue, 19 May 2009 20:41
I fully agree with Miguel.
What's going on with promos and relegations? If it's not transparent the whole thing looses its spice.
I have to admit, that my first impuls when I saw the lineups was to withdraw from season 3.
But on a second thought I won't withdraw, just because I don't like to cancel anything I have signed up for.

Of course I understand that it's not easy to set up season 3 due to all the dropouts.
I don't want to criticise.
Just want to add that some more transparency would be necessary to keep the league interesting.

Wildfire, you have spent a lot of thinking for this setup.
I want to really thank you for that.
But please let us know some of your deciding criteria.

Would be nice, but unfortunately you'd have to spend even more time Sad

best regards

Rufuz

[Updated on: Tue, 19 May 2009 20:42]

      
Wildfire2099
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Re:World TTR League Season 3 Divisions Tue, 19 May 2009 22:35
I've already mailed Rufuz, explaining the logic of the decisions he didn't like, and (I hope) he's happy with it, if not 100% in agreement... I'd be happy to do the same for Miguel, or anyone else who has a specific question.

In general, I started with the rules that are stated (ie 1st goes up two, 2nd up 1, etc) then moved others around based on their performance to accomodate being leaving and whatnot.

I also received feedback/opinions from Colo and Foude, which I incorporated for the final product.


Also, as an FYI, Robin Hood has decided to drop out, and has been replaced with Fczzc, who signed up late.

      
ACP Miguel
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Re:World TTR League Season 3 Divisions Tue, 19 May 2009 22:36
i would love to hear all
      
SMP-bassie
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Re:World TTR League Season 3 Divisions Tue, 19 May 2009 23:14
Three examples of, excusez-le-mot, unfairness. I post this here since I think everyone should be able to see this (please check if I made ay mistakes).

Example 1:
Season 2:
U 31 level B, average 3.40
RMarkes level C, average 3.50

Season 3:
RMarkes is promoted to level B, U 31 relegated to level C.

Example 2:
Season 2:
Karin1961 level G, average 4.86.
RocketBlizzard level H, average 4.83.

RocketBlizzard is promoted to level E, Karin1961 is relegated to level F (lowest level).

Eyample 3:
Requiem for a Dream is put to Level D with players who all played season 2 and have significantly higher ratings on average. Did we not agree that newcomers should not have advantages over staying players? Also Elric and sauvignon are placed relatively high.
      
ACP Miguel
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Re:World TTR League Season 3 Divisions Tue, 19 May 2009 23:32
not pointing out mistakes.

my point is when i enter season 2 i expect rules are made and wont change. that's why i've been playing season 1, 2 and 3 now and expected that season 3 was not so Wildfire dependent. i dont understand the criteria to place newcomers, or to dropp a player instead of not taking the 3rd or 4th from a division below (yes i support that a 3rd place in div B has more rights to climb than a 6th in division A) still those were not straight and knowned by all.

as season 3 is starting i dont really know what my goal is...and this is IMHO killing the league.

i fell like Rufuz. i want and i like to play the league still right now my heart is saying "oh just dropp out"

please note nothing related to my place in DIV B. since i'm fine with it and even if dropped to C. just make it clear and not wildfire decision...that can change in season 2,3,4,X
      
toutoune - Morgon
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Re:World TTR League Season 3 Divisions Tue, 19 May 2009 23:34
with a lot of player declining next season, I can understand the difficulties of TD to decide who plays in which division, and as far as it is not a single decision but a decision of an "international board" (Wildfire, Colo, Foudecoaster is a nice triumvirat), I can live with it.

(Edit: my previous personal reco was to "protect" the player from higher division in case of conflict, and also that every newcomers in Division 1 have to come from Div 2, and Div 2 only)

But despite it concerns 2 TGVs, I am totally AGAINST the fact that newcomers don't start from the bottom division.

The purpose of the league for me is to have another ranking than ELO, and it is a "long term contract". If a newcomer is very strong, with 6 divisions, he will join the first division in 4 seasons. Here this is totally UNFAIR for the players who fight hard last season to access the upper division and who see a newcomer accessing this upper division without a single match.

Anyway, thx to organization.

[Updated on: Tue, 19 May 2009 23:52]

      
AAA_Lucullupus
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  Re:World TTR League Season 3 Divisions Tue, 19 May 2009 23:41
For my opinion there are too many creative people in the ttr lobby. Wildfire makes a very good thankless job. I like idea and achievement of this league, therefore I will continue although I will have big time problems in the next month... nothing to criticise from my side! Cool
      
ACP Miguel
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Re:World TTR League Season 3 Divisions Tue, 19 May 2009 23:57
yes luc
i'm anti creative, that's why i only ask when a season starts that whoever is leading wildfire and/or colo to post the rules. simple and clear and NOT CREATIVE Wink
      
AAA_dea1
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Re:World TTR League Season 3 Divisions Wed, 20 May 2009 00:04
bassie schrieb am Tue, 19 May 2009 23:14

Three examples of, excusez-le-mot, unfairness.

'unfairness' is pretty relative, as the comparison data are your own (and therefore also rather subjective) measurement.
(Sorry to say that Bassie - I value your contributions, but I think this goes a bit too far)

I think Wildfire's decisions are actually quite good - as long as people keep quitting and re-entering, it can never be perfect according to 'laws', the TD has to use his own judgement.

As far as I follow it, all 'promises' were kept or improved.
Rules said: First 2 are promoted, last 2 are relegated.
All 'firsts' were promoted (and some others, too), some 'lasts' were relegated (some were lucky, due to the dropouts, and weren't).

I think we will never find 'perfect' rules for all what-if's, as long as players keep dropping out and re-entering. Let the TD decide at his discretion, how to handle all that. In my opinion he's doing a pretty good job and it won't get better whatever else we suggest.
      
Qorlas
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Re:World TTR League Season 3 Divisions Wed, 20 May 2009 00:17
Hi Smile

Just to say that I agree with almost all the decisions of Wildfire. In my view he did really a good work (and put me in a division of 9 players Smile ).

Off course things will never be perfect, but I really appreciate the effort and choices of Wildfire for the next season.

      
Elric - Sancerre
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Re:World TTR League Season 3 Divisions Wed, 20 May 2009 02:09
toutoune - Morgon écrit le Tue, 19 May 2009 23:34

But despite it concerns 2 TGVs, I am totally AGAINST the fact that newcomers don't start from the bottom division.

The purpose of the league for me is to have another ranking than ELO, and it is a "long term contract". If a newcomer is very strong, with 6 divisions, he will join the first division in 4 seasons. Here this is totally UNFAIR for the players who fight hard last season to access the upper division and who see a newcomer accessing this upper division without a single match.

Agree, agree and agree !!!! and with all of toutoune's post (amazing like it's always simple with my board rep for important things like competitions Wink ) !

Like I said in the other thread to answer bassie's remark, I still think I don't deserve to be so high (if a wild-card has to be done to me, that I didn't want at all !).

Please, Wildfire... give me the chance to climb a little (if I can !), not only fall and fall... Rolling Eyes Very Happy


Triumvirat with 2 motivated guys like Colo and Foudecoasters seems very good... You did very good things, we need to have TD's board for clear decisions, and keeping simple rules... but you still can explain a little more the decisions and especially how the divisions were formed... only explanations ! (to support Miguel's wish Cool ).


Also agree with dea's post about rules for promotions/relegations and to compose the Divisions.
(and I have a lot of Nutella for you, bas... better than marmelade Wink )
      
Wildfire2099
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Re:World TTR League Season 3 Divisions Wed, 20 May 2009 03:40
I'd be happy to explain Smile Bassie's examples are in red

Example 1:
Season 2:
U 31 level B, average 3.40
RMarkes level C, average 3.50

Season 3:
RMarkes is promoted to level B, U 31 relegated to level C.


Explanation: U31 finished in last place in B, this would usually demand a relagation to D, but since we collapsed down to 6 divisions, one 1 level was done.
RMarkes and Suburu were 'promoted' because of this squeeze as well. they finished 4th and 5th in C, respectively, therefor were the highest two returning players from C to fill the spots.

I did consider (as was suggested by Colo) to keep RMarkes in C and promote Rufuz to B, but I decided this way made more sense.

U31 was never a consideration for B... she DOMINATED at the lower level, and really struggle after the double promotion... I think C is most definately her correct place.



Example 2:
Season 2:
Karin1961 level G, average 4.86.
RocketBlizzard level H, average 4.83.

RocketBlizzard is promoted to level E, Karin1961 is relegated to level F (lowest level).


This definately could have gone either way... Rocket Blizzard finished higher, so I opted to reward that...one tie (as opposed to a win) definately doesn't really effect things either way.

It was a coin flip really.

Incidently, I definately don't consider that a relegation, the division just isn't there any more.

Eyample 3:
Requiem for a Dream is put to Level D with players who all played season 2 and have significantly higher ratings on average. Did we not agree that newcomers should not have advantages over staying players? Also Elric and sauvignon are placed relatively high.


I placed Elric and RFAD where I thought they'd fit best. Elric is in B partially because so many players from B didn't sign back up.. I think he's a very good player and would really beat on the lower divisions.

RFAD probably should start in E, but it didn't work out. the other options (promoting someone 3 levels, or allowing Lucullupus to stay after finishing last) were worse.

Sauvignon came back to the division he left. I don't think that's a problem... we had planned on having people come back 1 level below where they were, but since we lost to divisions I felt this was the way to go.


      
Wildfire2099
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Re:World TTR League Season 3 Divisions Wed, 20 May 2009 03:45
MiguelMarques wrote on Tue, 19 May 2009 17:32

not pointing out mistakes.

my point is when i enter season 2 i expect rules are made and wont change. that's why i've been playing season 1, 2 and 3 now and expected that season 3 was not so Wildfire dependent. i dont understand the criteria to place newcomers, or to dropp a player instead of not taking the 3rd or 4th from a division below (yes i support that a 3rd place in div B has more rights to climb than a 6th in division A) still those were not straight and knowned by all.

as season 3 is starting i dont really know what my goal is...and this is IMHO killing the league.

i fell like Rufuz. i want and i like to play the league still right now my heart is saying "oh just dropp out"

please note nothing related to my place in DIV B. since i'm fine with it and even if dropped to C. just make it clear and not wildfire decision...that can change in season 2,3,4,X




I agree 100% with you, Miguel. If everyone that initially signed up played in every season, rules could be in place and be followed without fail.

Obviously, that's not what happens in the real world. Sure, we could formulate some sort of statistic instead, but any fair system would be too complex for people to follow easily, and that's not really any less mysterious than me working it out.

I stuck with the promotions/relegations as per the rules 100%, there are just (by necessity) additional changed (mainly promotions) that need to take place to maintain a reasonable structure.


      
Wildfire2099
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Re:World TTR League Season 3 Divisions Wed, 20 May 2009 03:50
One last thing RE: Elric.

I stand by the fact that I think the competition in B will create the best games for you. If you prove me wrong and lose them all, you'll be at the bottom next season and can climb back up Smile

Where new players start is another place where theory is different than practice. I agree 100% that starting newcomers at the bottom makes the most sense... however, that would massively unbalance the divisions.

Why would Elric (a 1650+ player) want to play us guys 150, 200 points below him.. and why would we want him kicking our butt and making us have no chance to win the division? That would also force more people to be promoted that perhaps don't deserve it, further creating lopsided matches.

I consider my job done well if the majority of the division are competitive down to the end.. I think that's happened so far, so I'm happy Smile



      
SMP-bassie
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Re:World TTR League Season 3 Divisions Wed, 20 May 2009 06:03
dea1 said


'unfairness' is pretty relative, as the comparison data are your own (and therefore also rather subjective) measurement.

No, they are not my own, they come from the official results overview on tickipedia. Would you accept it if you had the same score average on a higher level than someone else to see this result in being put on a lower level the next season? I would not and it is exactly what happened to Karin1961 and U 31.
      
SMP-bassie
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Re:World TTR League Season 3 Divisions Wed, 20 May 2009 08:30
Wildfire2099 wrote on Wed, 20 May 2009 03:50

One last thing RE: Elric.

I stand by the fact that I think the competition in B will create the best games for you. If you prove me wrong and lose them all, you'll be at the bottom next season and can climb back up Smile

Where new players start is another place where theory is different than practice. I agree 100% that starting newcomers at the bottom makes the most sense... however, that would massively unbalance the divisions.

Why would Elric (a 1650+ player) want to play us guys 150, 200 points below him.. and why would we want him kicking our butt and making us have no chance to win the division? That would also force more people to be promoted that perhaps don't deserve it, further creating lopsided matches.

I consider my job done well if the majority of the division are competitive down to the end.. I think that's happened so far, so I'm happy Smile





If the main target is to have each division as competitive as possible you did well since I am sure Elric can face the challenges of Division B but I think the majority supports a system where league performance is rewarded and newcomers have to prove themselves worthy first.
      
SMP-bassie
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Re:World TTR League Season 3 Divisions Wed, 20 May 2009 08:40
Wildfire2099 explains

U31 finished in last place in B, this would usually demand a relagation to D, but since we collapsed down to 6 divisions, one 1 level was done.
RMarkes and Suburu were 'promoted' because of this squeeze as well. they finished 4th and 5th in C, respectively, therefor were the highest two returning players from C to fill the spots.

So because you feel that people should be relegated even though the current Division B is qualitatively different from the previous one, you relegate someone who was one point below average in Division B to promote someone who was one point below average in Division C? That does not make sense.

Wildfire2099 explains

This definately could have gone either way... Rocket Blizzard finished higher, so I opted to reward that...one tie (as opposed to a win) definately doesn't really effect things either way.

It was a coin flip really.

Incidently, I definately don't consider that a relegation, the division just isn't there any more.

It definitely is a relegation since she went from the second-lowest level to the lowest level. And their results might have been close but she was in level G and Rocket in level H. Does that not matter?
      
Elric - Sancerre
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Re:World TTR League Season 3 Divisions Wed, 20 May 2009 09:15
Quick answer (again) before job... and before 4/5 days out (cool Cool ) :

Thanks for the explanations, Wildfire.
(... maybe next time, we could have these comments earlier to avoid starting "troubles", whith the new divisions for example ?)

Even if we can always debates about these decisions (thanks bassie and dea for the quality of your posts, like always), I understand now much better why you placed me in div. B.
I still consider that it's a little too high for me, but of course, I will fight till the end (like always Wink ), and I'm sorry for guys and girls below who could consider this unfair, of course I asked for nothing !

Just one last thing about numbers and stats that bassie refers, there are "official" from previous season's results, that's right, but it's always difficult to compare because the players didn't play the same opponents... so, not totally objective (imho).



NB Important : there are attacks on ticki's pages ! Help, Colo or erps or another admin !
      
Colo
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Re:World TTR League Season 3 Divisions Wed, 20 May 2009 10:40
short answers on just some points:

- I just did comment, the final decision was Wildfire's, but I agree with it mostly.
- The lowest ranking player of a league should in my opinion always drop, no matter now many drop outs and whatever, thats why winne (u31, and he is a he) dropping is correct in my opinion.
- I suggest to be even more strict with newbies entering low for the next season. This also seems to be the opinion of a majority. ELO and league preformace are different things. We are the League and should value League preformace over ELO. Also, if you place someone looking at his ELO, things get complicated. Compared his ELO to the ELO of the league players from one season back? Could well be he would be lower ranked if he entered one season ealier ... complicated! Bottom line: wildcards very sparingly and not too high!

Now off to the ticki to check for the mentioned attacks.
      
*zufuR
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Re:World TTR League Season 3 Divisions Wed, 20 May 2009 10:45
Thank you, Wilfire, for your explanations.

To all:
I suggest to stop now whining and complaining about what could be a better setup for season 3.
Wildfire did a hell of a job to make (and keep) the league interesting.

I wish you all a great third season with a lot of fantastic matches and games.

Regards,

Rufuz
      
Jac_
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Re:World TTR League Season 3 Divisions Wed, 20 May 2009 11:19
Now I held back very long, and feel I do need to give my 0.02 also.
I had to drop out for personal reasons. Thanks for the understanding. Very Happy

BUT and this is a BIG BUT why I did not return. Mad

I don't like the wishy kind of rules of who goes where if so many or that many drop out, or re-enter or start up.

I LOVE the idea of the league, and the work Wildfire does with it is totally appreciated. Really. Very Happy Very Happy Very Happy

What I don't like, same as some of the above comments also state, that again it is ELO and ELO and ELO .... that counts. Nice if all re-entries and new entries start at the bottom, HEY this way we would have less drop outs for sure. Once climbed to the top, you don't want to re-start at the bottom.

ALSO what I HATE Shocked Embarassed is that the starting and end dates are not being consequent. Again in season 3 it has gotten changed by foude.

IMHO the start and end dates of EACH season should be a fixed date. Nod so I know exactly when the next spring league is.

Maybe some day all this is in place, and yes I would again join even if this time I would have to start at the bottom.

Jac_

[Updated on: Wed, 20 May 2009 11:21]

      
Colo
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Re:World TTR League Season 3 Divisions Wed, 20 May 2009 12:36
Jac.... it is ELO only for two cases in season 3: Elric and RFAD. Nowhere else ELO mattered. I am not completely happy with those two as well, but just to point out: 2 cases only.

      
Jac_
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Re:World TTR League Season 3 Divisions Wed, 20 May 2009 14:02
......then why are not ALL newcomers and re-comers put at the bottom?

It is all about ELO, if not, all would start at the bottom, hey cool if they are good, so they climb faster than others, can keep top spots longer, but IF they quit...... yes they start at the bottom again.

Jac_
      
TIC wasdenn
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Re:World TTR League Season 3 Divisions Wed, 20 May 2009 18:41
Jac_ schrieb am Wed, 20 May 2009 14:02

......then why are not ALL newcomers and re-comers put at the bottom?

It is all about ELO, if not, all would start at the bottom, hey cool if they are good, so they climb faster than others, can keep top spots longer, but IF they quit...... yes they start at the bottom again.

Jac_


I am quite happy with the rule (and there is one for that Wink ) that re-comers who had opted out for one season (there are plenty of honorable reasons for that) are inserted one division below where they left.

Otherwise the last division might be crowded with good players, and being promoted to where you belong due to your league playing strength takes several seasons longer. Especially middle strength players might get stuck in the lowest division for eternity, if there are 2 strong players returning in each and every season, who will get the 2 first places and the promotions.

Even better would be that re-comers are placed one below to where they would have been promoted/relegated to.

Real world decision might have to bend that rule a little, eg if there are less divisions in the next season, or maybe more.

Of course "quitters" who left during the season should start at the botttom, if they are admitted again at all.

my 2 cents (together with Jac's and bassie's this makes 6 cents already Wink )

wasdenn
      
Colo
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Re:World TTR League Season 3 Divisions Wed, 20 May 2009 19:15
wasdenn

Even better would be that re-comers are placed one below to where they would have been promoted/relegated to.

That's what I consider the current rule. In your (wasdenn's) case that would mean you are eligible to return to E (one lower than D) in season 4. As a different example bassie, who ended first in D in season 2, would be eligible to return to D in season 4 (one promotion from 2 to 3, one relegation for missing season 3) or maybe even to C (two level promotion from 2 to 3, one relegation for missing 3). And as a last example: Anu, who played A in season 1 and did not play season 2 and season 3, would only be eligible to return to season 4 as any new entry, and that is ... a different topic.

wasdenn

Of course "quitters" who left during the season should start at the botttom, if they are admitted again at all.

I also completely agree here! Sums up to 8 cents now?
      
ATN Drake
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Re:World TTR League Season 3 Divisions Thu, 21 May 2009 01:42
I know I'm special and all, but why do I have a star after my name?
      
Wildfire2099
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Re:World TTR League Season 3 Divisions Fri, 22 May 2009 18:07
WMD Drake WMD wrote on Wed, 20 May 2009 19:42

I know I'm special and all, but why do I have a star after my name?



Heh, whe we did sign ups, I asked if people were European or American, intending to use said info in structuring the levels where there was more than one group, to make scheduling easier.

As it turned out, only 3 out of 50+ people are American, so it didn't matter...

the star indicated your preferance to US time zone... I just didn't get rid of it when it was clear it was a moot point.

@ Jac_ : ELO is not important... if fact, I based Elric's spot on his strong past history more than his current ranking, which is what Colo and Bas didn't like, I think.

I think this comes down to what the purpose of the league is... I feel like the point is to create a group of fun competitive games where winning means something... its not JUST the competition itself. If it was the latter, than yes, the only fair way would be to start all new people at the bottom... I just don't think that makes practical sense. Take last season, 2Cutter started in C, and did well, being in the middle of the pack in the division.

Why make here spend the 1st season in the bottom division going 7-0? Not fun for her, or the others in her league.

I don't think the rules are wishy washy at all, its just that they are only the starting point. If you can come up with some code that will cover all possible permutations of people dropping out from one season to another and still have the division match up properly, by all means do so, if it's good, we'll use it.



@ Bassie: I would argue that any comparisons statistically your making between divisions are just as arbitrary as the ones I made... I'm pretty sure you didn't check the ratings for every person at the some point during the league and analyze the precise difference between each division, then weight it accordingly. More properly, you might go back and give each player a 'league ELO', with some measured difference between the divisions, and use that. There are several methods that could be used, all of them very accurate but very time consuming.

I've said before and still think to do so is unnecessary, but if you want statisics, that's what you'd have to do. assigning some factor to each division is still arbitary, it's just putting numbers on your thought process to make it look more official.

That being said, I'd be more than happy to do that analysis and make things very scientific.. as soon as either DoW or the players start giving me, or, say $50 an hour for my consulting services. Spending a couple hours looking at things, talking with the others, and making logical decisions I'm willing to do; spending 5X that to do a proper statisical analysis I'm not. If you are, go for it, explain the methodology, and if it makes sense, we'll use it.



[Updated on: Fri, 22 May 2009 18:09]

      
SMP-bassie
Senior Member

Posts: 494
Registered:
January 2005
Re:World TTR League Season 3 Divisions Fri, 22 May 2009 22:38
What I staded regarding U 31 vs. RMarkes and Karin1961 vs. Rocketblizzard was very simple and not based on my own arbitrary comparisons but on pure league performance. These two players had the same average as their "opponents" who played one league lower. Now putting any advanced statistics or ELO aside, only one conclusion can be drawn: U 31 did better than RMarkes and Karin1961 did better than Rocketblizzard. End of story. If I can't count on league performance to be used for the next season, this becomes a random thing.

Wildfire invites us

If you can come up with some code that will cover all possible permutations of people dropping out from one season to another and still have the division match up properly, by all means do so.

I gave you an algorithm that is objective and works. Better yet: if you don't like the parameters you can change them and it improves forever. That is not the case with personal judgement for new players. So no, you don't have to do time-consuming statistical analysis, the algorithm is there ready to use.

But as I said in my previous post, I have no issues anymore about the choices you made. All players accepted your decisions and that is all that matters.

And yes, I had promised to give it a rest, but I claim the right to explain myself in case of a misunderstanding.
      
Colo
Senior Member

Posts: 268
Registered:
June 2007
Re:World TTR League Season 3 Divisions Fri, 22 May 2009 23:48
ok, can't hold it back

League performace shall matter, we all agree. In that case, putting all other statistics aside, I support the idea that the last ranked in one division always faces relegation, almost no matter how many drop out and how many promotions it needs to compensate. And that is the case for Winne (U 31).

I see the many advantages of a system like your proposal bassie. One disadvantage to me appears to be, that you will never know during the season what the result will be, because it depends on everyone's performance. It can always only be calculated after all matches are played. This takes much of the spice. Yes, I already hear you oppose: that is also the case with the current system. True, at least when drop outs and pauses occur. The more of those, the less predictable the outcome of one's performance. But at least in an ideal league, with no drop outs, the current system allows predictability, and then much spice.

Maybe we can adjust the current system to be more predictable. At least I think that could be done. But not now. Long enough post already.

      
Wildfire2099
Senior Member

Posts: 654
Registered:
June 2005
Re:World TTR League Season 3 Divisions Sat, 23 May 2009 03:47
I think the main difference is what we're comparing, Bassie...

you're considering the W/L record of the games played, where I'm using the 'ranking' within the division.

IMO, the point of self-contained divisions is to have them be self-contained... comparing what someone did in one division to another based on points isn't valid, IMO, nor is it what we're going for in this league.

As far as you ranking idea, just because it's objective doesn't mean it's accurate. Like I said before, I'm sure it's a decent guess, but it's still a guess.


The other point I wanted to make is this... you're saying you want more rules, yet we followed the rule and relagated U-31, and you're agruing that as an example of arbitrary-ness.


      
SMP-bassie
Senior Member

Posts: 494
Registered:
January 2005
Re:World TTR League Season 3 Divisions Sat, 23 May 2009 09:03
Colo argues

One disadvantage to me appears to be, that you will never know during the season what the result will be, because it depends on everyone's performance. It can always only be calculated after all matches are played. This takes much of the spice. Yes, I already hear you oppose: that is also the case with the current system. True, at least when drop outs and pauses occur. The more of those, the less predictable the outcome of one's performance. But at least in an ideal league, with no drop outs, the current system allows predictability, and then much spice.

That is a clear disadvantage. Acknowledged. I just find it strange to relegate someone if there is no alternative, but that is a choice Wildfire made and I don't argue with that. But, to compare it your way, Karin1961 was 4th out of 8 one level higher than RocketBlizzard who was 3rd out of 7. Even this way there can't be any reason to value RocketBlizzard's performance over Karin1961's. And mind you, with my algorithm, the promotions and relegations will go pretty natural too if the system is stable. But yes, I fully agree that knowing things only afterwards takes away spice, but there is no personal judgement and I find that a huge advantage.

Wildfire says

you're saying you want more rules, yet we followed the rule and relagated U-31, and you're agruing that as an example of arbitrary-ness.

I never said I want more rules, I said I want as much objectivity as possible. And forced relegation was never my rule. No one cares the certainty of being relegated. I do agree that the certainty of being promoted is important. But that can be built in the algorithm easily too.
      
Colo
Senior Member

Posts: 268
Registered:
June 2007
Re:World TTR League Season 3 Divisions Sun, 24 May 2009 14:34
As to the Karin/Rocket decision ... you sure got a point there bassie, I never looked at that before. This is a comparison of one unexpected promotion due to the many drop outs to another unexpected promotion. And I agree with bassie that Karin's performance appears even better than Rocket's.

With no clear rules on that (which are not easy to find, apparently) that can of course be seen different, like Wildfire did. Rules versus decision (in the light of the situation and at the discretion of the TD). Both have pros and cons and I guess we are not on an all too bad path (and this discussion is part of that) to find ways to decide these and other matters. Some by coming to more objective rules and others by trusting in wise and fair decision (with growing consistence).
      
Wildfire2099
Senior Member

Posts: 654
Registered:
June 2005
Re:World TTR League Season 3 Divisions Sun, 31 May 2009 07:42
What I'm not clear about is what you think the promotions were arbitary. I considered 3rd better than 4th, that's the bottom line. I'm considering this a series of related leagues (as in football) rather than 1 league with a bunch of division.. I think you suggestion does the opposite.

What I was trying to say is that I don't KNOW how much better the competition in one division is than another, and you don't either. We can make educated guesses, as you did with your stats, but we don't KNOW.

I do KNOW that Rocketblizzard finished 3rd, and therefore was the next person to get an 'extra' promotion on that fact. Remeber, techincally every division had 8.. a person dropping out finishes 8th. I was reward relative performance, while you suggest rewarding absolute performance.

IMO, with this format, relative performance makes more sense. You are, of course allow to disagree.. I enjoy the discussion Smile

And I still maintain Karin went UP a division (from 7 to 6).. I know there are only 6 this time, but I can't do anything about that.


      
    
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