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yangtze
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Tiger, or 4-Figure Special Forces Tank Unit - which is better???? Wed, 27 May 2009 09:53
The Tiger unit at first glance is a more powerful adversary than a 4-figure special forces tank unit. The Tiger I takes 6 hits on average before it's brewed up, whereas the special forces tank unit takes only 4 hits. However...

* excess hits after the 4th rolled in a single attack on a special forces tank unit are wasted. In contrast, those hits would be re-rolled against the Tiger.

* on occasions, the elimination of an enemy unit will leave friendly units that haven't fired yet without a target. In contrast those units will be able to direct fire against a surviving Tiger.

* it's 50/50 that a Tiger will be knocked out after fewer hits than a special forces tank unit. This is likely to seriously upset the Axis player, especially on the 1 in 6 occasions where a Tiger will go down after the first hit! Very Happy

* you can play Medics and Mechanics and use Supply Trucks on a weakened special forces tank unit, but you can't use either on a Tiger.


So Tigers may feel more powerful, and are certainly a lot of fun, but in practice my thinking is that they're likely to be no more effective than their 4-figure cousins.

Views anyone?

[Updated on: Wed, 27 May 2009 09:54]

      
Winter Storm
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Re:Tiger, or 4-Figure Special Forces Tank Unit - which is better???? Wed, 27 May 2009 11:36
yangtze wrote on Wed, 27 May 2009 09:53

The Tiger unit at first glance is a more powerful adversary than a 4-figure special forces tank unit. The Tiger I takes 6 hits on average before it's brewed up, whereas the special forces tank unit takes only 4 hits. However...

* excess hits after the 4th rolled in a single attack on a special forces tank unit are wasted. In contrast, those hits would be re-rolled against the Tiger.

* on occasions, the elimination of an enemy unit will leave friendly units that haven't fired yet without a target. In contrast those units will be able to direct fire against a surviving Tiger.

* it's 50/50 that a Tiger will be knocked out after fewer hits than a special forces tank unit. This is likely to seriously upset the Axis player, especially on the 1 in 6 occasions where a Tiger will go down after the first hit! Very Happy

* you can play Medics and Mechanics and use Supply Trucks on a weakened special forces tank unit, but you can't use either on a Tiger.


So Tigers may feel more powerful, and are certainly a lot of fun, but in practice my thinking is that they're likely to be no more effective than their 4-figure cousins.

Views anyone?


mmm. I disagree.. it's all dependings on luck. I've done some tests with the random function...while is true that a single tiger could be killed with just one die (yes it happened in one of the first tests!) a unit of three or four or even more tigers will be statistically impossible to knock down. I've made some calculations and some tests and I can assure you that it would dake fewer die to kill elite tanks.

There are siniicant possibilities to not kill even a single tiger with dozens and dozens of die!

In addition if you are escorted by other units the enemy faces the dilemma: shooting at the tiger (risking to not cause casualties) or attack the other unities (thus not trying to kill the tigers!).

In addition throwing more die against a tiger tou can inflict only one loss. Against multiple tanks you can inflict multiple losses. It's not difficult to kill two tanks with only three die.

Moreover you can kill an elite or standard tank units hiy by hit thus weakening it so yoour opponent will be reluctant to risk it or a medal. Instead a tiger unit is killed or not killed...
it can't be killed only a part of it.

Medics & Mechanics isonly one card of 60 ones and it's only a slight advantage that elite tanks can use it (expecially in overlord..only four die). You have to draw it and to have good rolls.

The trucks by now are only used in hegerows hell and thus that it'sonlya minor advantage for the elite tanks.

So I think thata Tiger can be rarely weaker than elite while more frequently too strong... I think that the tiger rule can be only used only in scenarios very well balanced,not all scenarios in which there are special forces.
      
yangtze
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Re:Tiger, or 4-Figure Special Forces Tank Unit - which is better???? Wed, 27 May 2009 13:01
The trucks by now are only used in hegerows hell and thus that it'sonlya minor advantage for the elite tanks.

Not necessarily, *if* you're using the retrofitting method Very Happy

Interesting points though. However, statistically, your Tiger's going down half the time in 3 hits or less! One-on-one with an enemy unit you know your special forces are going to shoot twice. Not so with the Tiger. Psychologically though, the Tiger may well have the edge - as you say, rolling hits and watching them ping off the glacis plate is a nerve-wracking experience Shocked

Any more views?
      
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Re:Tiger, or 4-Figure Special Forces Tank Unit - which is better???? Wed, 27 May 2009 17:12
I would tend to agree with Yangtze here..seems the 4 unit tanks are tad better than the Tiger. Considering that usually by the 3rd hit the Tiger might be gone but the 4 unit tank has at least a unit left.

And Medic card can heal back a 4 unit tank but not a Tiger. And sometimes Tigers get bullied due to the fact that you only need one hit (i.e. an infantry that rolls 1 die might go after the Tiger if in range). And yes, I know that all initial hits due need to be rerolled and upon a grenade the Tiger is toast!!

The Tigers look cool and all, but I think the 4 unit tank unit would be my prefered choice.

Cab
      
Winter Storm
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Re:Tiger, or 4-Figure Special Forces Tank Unit - which is better???? Wed, 27 May 2009 23:11
Caboose wrote on Wed, 27 May 2009 17:12

I would tend to agree with Yangtze here..seems the 4 unit tanks are tad better than the Tiger. Considering that usually by the 3rd hit the Tiger might be gone but the 4 unit tank has at least a unit left.

And Medic card can heal back a 4 unit tank but not a Tiger. And sometimes Tigers get bullied due to the fact that you only need one hit (i.e. an infantry that rolls 1 die might go after the Tiger if in range). And yes, I know that all initial hits due need to be rerolled and upon a grenade the Tiger is toast!!

The Tigers look cool and all, but I think the 4 unit tank unit would be my prefered choice.

Cab


TRY to replace the elite tanks in previous scenarios...for instance st Vith, Ardennes...(in which Tigers are mentioned) and you'll se the difference.




      
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Re:Tiger, or 4-Figure Special Forces Tank Unit - which is better???? Wed, 27 May 2009 23:38
Winter Storm wrote on Wed, 27 May 2009 14:11


TRY to replace the elite tanks in previous scenarios...for instance st Vith, Ardennes...(in which Tigers are mentioned) and you'll se the difference.


Does this mean you've done it already and know something we don't? Rolling Eyes Or are you just suggesting we try it out?

Next time I play St. Vith, I'll switch the elite tanks out...but it might be a little while before I get around to it.
      
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Re:Tiger, or 4-Figure Special Forces Tank Unit - which is better???? Thu, 28 May 2009 04:15
I played Tigers in the Snow where I played TFH. My first two attacks vs a Tigers fired 7 shots and scored a kill. My next attack vs a cutoff Tiger w/ 12 dice scored 6 hits and all the rerolls missed. In that situation, the elite unit would have been toast after the 2nd attack (8 dice), but the Tiger lived on.

Tgiers vs Elite panzer units - a tough call.
      
Winter Storm
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Re:Tiger, or 4-Figure Special Forces Tank Unit - which is better???? Thu, 28 May 2009 12:01
rasmussen81 wrote on Wed, 27 May 2009 23:38

Winter Storm wrote on Wed, 27 May 2009 14:11


TRY to replace the elite tanks in previous scenarios...for instance st Vith, Ardennes...(in which Tigers are mentioned) and you'll se the difference.


Does this mean you've done it already and know something we don't? Rolling Eyes Or are you just suggesting we try it out?

Next time I play St. Vith, I'll switch the elite tanks out...but it might be a little while before I get around to it.


No, my is only suggestion... but I 've done some statistics and I can assure you than the more special tank unit you have the better is for you that those units are Tigers instead of elite tanks.

One Tiger vs one Elite tank depends a lot on luck......more of those units you have the less luck is influent.

Thus try... St. Vith or other scenarios with lots of tigers.. but It would a lot of plays to shows what if better. We have a lot of dispersion of the probability to survive of the tiger, so we need a lot of tests.. but luckily in this forum there is a lot of people.

For intance.... if you want to kill normal tanks, you have 1/3 possibiliites. If you throw 360 die, you will kill about 120 tanks (30 elite units)... but if you throw 3 die, it's not sure at all that you will kill 1 tank (you can kill one, none, two, or even thre!!)

In the same way for the Tiger there is a 1/18 probability to kill it with a die. if it's both possible to kill a Tiger with just one die and to not kill it with even 30 die it's possible to sat that you will kill about 20 Tigers with 360 die.

Thus the Tiger is more difficult to kill than the elite tanks...
(20 vs 30 means that the elite tanks wil suffers +50% casualties and medals for the opponent) but they are surely more RELIABLE only when in large numbers.

To sum up..you will not see just playing one scenario which is better...but the more scenario you play the more will be better for you to replace every elite tank with a Tiger.

P.S. The medics and mechanichs could be used to heal other tanks or infantries. The trucks rock supplying artillery

[Updated on: Thu, 28 May 2009 12:16]

      
Winter Storm
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Re:Tiger, or 4-Figure Special Forces Tank Unit - which is better???? Thu, 28 May 2009 13:49
Winter Storm wrote on Thu, 28 May 2009 12:01



One Tiger vs one Elite tank depends a lot on luck......more of those units you have the less luck is influent.

Thus try... St. Vith or other scenarios with lots of tigers.. but It would a lot of plays to shows what if better. We have a lot of dispersion of the probability to survive of the tiger, so we need a lot of tests.. but luckily in this forum there is a lot of people.

For intance.... if you want to kill normal tanks, you have 1/3 possibiliites. If you throw 360 die, you will kill about 120 tanks (30 elite units)... but if you throw 3 die, it's not sure at all that you will kill 1 tank (you can kill one, none, two, or even thre!!)

In the same way for the Tiger there is a 1/18 probability to kill it with a die. if it's both possible to kill a Tiger with just one die and to not kill it with even 30 die it's possible to sat that you will kill about 20 Tigers with 360 die.

Thus the Tiger is more difficult to kill than the elite tanks...
(20 vs 30 means that the elite tanks wil suffers +50% casualties and medals for the opponent) but they are surely more RELIABLE only when in large numbers.





However it is obvious that each Tiger killed gives a medal and is a whole unit killed, while if you killed two tanks in an elite tank unit and two ones in another you have still two (weakended)units and your enemy still no medals. One can also withdraw weakend units to not give medals to the opponent.
But in this way. retreating them he loose the opportunity to use them in attack after only two or three miniatures lost..... things are becoming confused

the kill ratio of the miniatures is not
truly 6:1 for the Tiger because there are also some die wasted...but this could be sometimes one hit wasted for each units, rarely more. Thus the ratio is ABOUT 6:1,1 or 6:1,2 while the miniautre ratio int the units is 1:4.

A nice use of the Tigers is to use them with the support of other units... your opponent have to decide to attack the other units without dealing with the Tiger until is to late or to risk to not kill any miniatures.



[Updated on: Thu, 28 May 2009 14:01]

      
50th
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Re:Tiger, or 4-Figure Special Forces Tank Unit - which is better???? Thu, 28 May 2009 18:15
I still say that the Tigers should be shooting 4 4 4 or maybe 4 4 4 4 because of that 88mm gun. It is much better than the L43 or the 75mm gun of the Sherman.
      
Angelo
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Re:Tiger, or 4-Figure Special Forces Tank Unit - which is better???? Thu, 28 May 2009 18:30
4 4 4 4 i think its too much considered the depth of the board... maybe in breakthrough
      
Kaufschtick
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Re:Tiger, or 4-Figure Special Forces Tank Unit - which is better???? Thu, 28 May 2009 18:58
50th wrote on Thu, 28 May 2009 12:15

I still say that the Tigers should be shooting 4 4 4 or maybe 4 4 4 4 because of that 88mm gun. It is much better than the L43 or the 75mm gun of the Sherman.


Well, maybe against other armor. I guess I could see something like that. IMO, I would think that 3-3-3 would be just fine against infantry and arty still. Or how about just keeping it at 3-3-3-3, has that been mentioned yet in this thread?

[Updated on: Thu, 28 May 2009 18:58]

      
Timmuilwijk
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Re:Tiger, or 4-Figure Special Forces Tank Unit - which is better???? Thu, 28 May 2009 20:16
To get back to the original subject, when throwing one die , the tiger would get a hit on 2/6 * 1/6 = 3/36, while the normal 4 - unit would have a higher probablility, however only 1 unit is hit. So you would have like 3/36 = 1/12 chance of throwing a hit vs Tiger on 1 die. This would mean that the Tiger is harder to destroy, it is on 1 die destroyed while the 4 - unit is not...besides the other factors like the Medics and Mechanics and other cards are not included...to say, they are quite equal and it all depends on luck, for I have seen games in which I destroyed a 4 tank - unit within 2 turns and I have seen games that took like 6 rounds before I had destroyed it, at the cost of 2 or more units...

It all comes down to numbers ('we all use math everyday... to predict weather... to tell time', I know, I love the TV series 'Numb3rs' Embarassed Very Happy )

Anyway, I think that they are applied in different scenarios especially the Tiger can only be used after 1943...and they weren't produced in real big numbers.

Tim
      
Winter Storm
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Re:Tiger, or 4-Figure Special Forces Tank Unit - which is better???? Thu, 28 May 2009 23:04
Timmuilwijk wrote on Thu, 28 May 2009 20:16

To get back to the original subject, when throwing one die , the tiger would get a hit on 2/6 * 1/6 = 3/36,

3/36 = 1/12

Tim


2/6*1/6 = 3/36
who thaught you math Laughing ?
      
Timmuilwijk
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Re:Tiger, or 4-Figure Special Forces Tank Unit - which is better???? Fri, 29 May 2009 12:07
well to be honest Razz, I haven't visited math for over a month...(I have done my exams now)
I am sorry it should be 2/36, just confusing you and me Very Happy well everyone makes mistakes, happily I didn't do this on the math test....but still, it is a very small number Very Happy

Tim

[Updated on: Fri, 29 May 2009 12:07]

      
Winter Storm
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Re:Tiger, or 4-Figure Special Forces Tank Unit - which is better???? Fri, 29 May 2009 12:24
Timmuilwijk wrote on Fri, 29 May 2009 12:07

Very Happy well everyone makes mistakes




True... don't worry, I'm not a teacher... just a student with lots and lots of exams to do

[Updated on: Fri, 29 May 2009 12:24]

      
Timmuilwijk
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Re:Tiger, or 4-Figure Special Forces Tank Unit - which is better???? Fri, 29 May 2009 12:34
Ok, my ass is saved Very Happy, anyway nice way of dealing with the problem, I also think it all comes down in how you use them, as support or as lone units.

I also like the idea of the Tigers having a 4-4-4 attack but I also think that will be too powerful for 1 Tiger unit vs 3 tanks...maybe only in the first days of the Normandy Campaign, later on the American tankers did find ways to 1) evade the tigers because they were faster than the Tiger 2) to kill it by aiming at the weakest armored plates... and 3) the Shermans came in larger numbers than the Tigers...

However, to implement all this in Memoir '44 will cost a lot of the original strength: its easy rules and mechanisms...but the hard core, die hard (do we have other names? Very Happy) veteran player will like some change in playing, something new.

Tim
      
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Re:Tiger, or 4-Figure Special Forces Tank Unit - which is better???? Fri, 29 May 2009 14:03
The Tiger had it failings -- underpowered and lacking sloped armor and on top of it all took much longer to produce than a Panther. It just was not made for an offensive role.

That is why the Germans probably should have concentrated on Pather production after it had been introduced (and never made the Royal Tiger). The Panther had it all - strong sloped armor, hitting power and more mobility than the Tiger. There was also plans for a Panther II which had a smaller turret and the same gun found on the Tiger II (88mm L/71).
      
Hawkmoon von Köln
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Re:Tiger, or 4-Figure Special Forces Tank Unit - which is better???? Fri, 29 May 2009 16:02
Praxeo, on french forum, had made statistic studies between Tigers and Elite Armour.
In a duel between these 2 units : No surprise, Tiger wins...
Now It's depending as he said, of the tactics of fight...
If you read french, you can go to this link :
http://www.daysofwonder.com/fr/msg/?th=16938&start=40
Greetz from Le Mans
      
yangtze
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Re:Tiger, or 4-Figure Special Forces Tank Unit - which is better???? Mon, 01 June 2009 22:31
Yes, HvK, and this my point I think. On the surface, statistically, and under laboratory conditions, the Tiger wins. However, there are a large number of other factors that need to be taken into account when the Tiger and the elite armour are performing under the cut and thrust of a typical M44 scenario.

Any possibility of a brief distillation in English of the main findings of that French article?
      
ad79
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Re:Tiger, or 4-Figure Special Forces Tank Unit - which is better???? Mon, 01 June 2009 22:57
I like the Tigers and some of the strategic thinking you need to do when you play with them.

I have played Bocage and Aignan from the battle map solo and have found the Tigers to be very ggod, but somewhat prone to having bad days. In my three plays of the Aignan scenario, Wittman was killed twice on the first attack against him but in the last play he survived. The allied took out three Tigers on one turn in one of the plays and took a 3-0 lead.
This was when I found a new thing I needed to think about when playing with Tigers. Any allied attack on a Tiger was a potential medal and that meant the axis side had to be cautious about leaving the Tiger within range of the bulk of the allied forces.

This brings new things into the endgame of scenarios for the allied player. Do you risk an attack on the Tigers and try to end it by killing it or do you try to take on 4 figure infantry units or 3 figure regular tanks?
I am thinking this is a new thing to consider for both sides when Tigers are in play.

[Updated on: Mon, 01 June 2009 22:58]

      
Hawkmoon von Köln
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Re:Tiger, or 4-Figure Special Forces Tank Unit - which is better???? Tue, 02 June 2009 12:20
I have to contact Praxeo to ask him for translation...
Keep a look there...
Greetz from Le Mans
      
50th
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Re:Tiger, or 4-Figure Special Forces Tank Unit - which is better???? Tue, 02 June 2009 14:34
Hawkmoon, how about Elite armor firing 4 4 4? That's my house rule, because of the good 88.
      
Hawkmoon von Köln
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Re:Tiger, or 4-Figure Special Forces Tank Unit - which is better???? Tue, 02 June 2009 15:14
I think that it increases deeply the chance to hit and destroy the Tiger.
But we have to remember that most of the allied tanks were armed with 75 mm gun which wasn't a good gun against Tigers and Panthers almost facing each other.
As german soldier said : "Our Tiger has the value of ten of your Sherman but the problem is there are always eleven ones".
The only gun which could destroy the Tiger was the 17th pounders (76 or 77 mm, I don't remember yet) with long cannon that was mounted on Sherman Firefly... But this tank was easily destroyed by 88L56 gun (Tiger) or 75LL70 gun (Panther)...
Maybe 4/3/3 with 4 figs for Sherman Firefly (see Rasmussen81 homepage for special rules).
Some russian guns as 85 mm, 100 mm and 122 mm could destroy the Tigers but the great difficulty was in approaching them...
Greetz from Le Mans
PS : I'm gonna to read again my Trucks 'n Tanks reviews to see comparatives between WWII german armour and allied tanks.
      
Praxeo
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Re:Tiger, or 4-Figure Special Forces Tank Unit - which is better???? Wed, 10 June 2009 09:04
Hi

OK, I will translate my technical study "Tiger vs 4-fig Armor Elite" and publish it here.

This is the second artcile I wrote about Tigers. The first one is in my blog. http://praxeo-fr.blogspot.com/2009/04/jeu-memoire-44-les-tig res.html

Are you interested too ?

Note: the link is repaired now

Regards

[Updated on: Wed, 10 June 2009 21:20]

      
yangtze
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Re:Tiger, or 4-Figure Special Forces Tank Unit - which is better???? Wed, 10 June 2009 09:10
Hi Praxeo - yes very interested!

Your blog link appears to be broken?

Note, British 6 pounders could disable Tigers at close range. Most engagement ranges were relatively close in the Normandy Bocage.
      
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Re:Tiger, or 4-Figure Special Forces Tank Unit - which is better???? Thu, 11 June 2009 01:12
I played the villers-Bocage scenario the other day and the combined results for the Brits for both games was: 33 shots - 10 hits and 1 kill. Those same results would have killed 2 and 1/2 elite panzer units.
      
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Re:Tiger, or 4-Figure Special Forces Tank Unit - which is better???? Thu, 11 June 2009 01:42
tank commander wrote on Wed, 10 June 2009 16:12

I played the villers-Bocage scenario the other day and the combined results for the Brits for both games was: 33 shots - 10 hits and 1 kill. Those same results would have killed 2 and 1/2 elite panzer units.


So are you voting for Tigers being more powerful then? Razz Did the battle still play out the way it usually does, or did the Tiger change things?
      
yangtze
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Re:Tiger, or 4-Figure Special Forces Tank Unit - which is better???? Thu, 11 June 2009 02:12
Those same results would have killed 2 and 1/2 elite panzer units.

But those hits might not have materialised if the 4-fig units had withdrawn when down to 1 or 2 figs...
      
Shoegaze99
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Re:Tiger, or 4-Figure Special Forces Tank Unit - which is better???? Thu, 11 June 2009 17:12
yangtze wrote on Wed, 10 June 2009 20:12

Those same results would have killed 2 and 1/2 elite panzer units.

But those hits might not have materialised if the 4-fig units had withdrawn when down to 1 or 2 figs...

Absolutely. Any good commander is going to change their tactics based on the unit in the field.
      
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Re:Tiger, or 4-Figure Special Forces Tank Unit - which is better???? Thu, 11 June 2009 19:58
yangtze wrote on Wed, 10 June 2009 20:12

Those same results would have killed 2 and 1/2 elite panzer units.

But those hits might not have materialised if the 4-fig units had withdrawn when down to 1 or 2 figs...


Assuming one had a chance (the unit in question was not destroyed in that turn), the card to do so and was not facing a more pressing matter in another part of the board.
      
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Re:Tiger, or 4-Figure Special Forces Tank Unit - which is better???? Thu, 11 June 2009 20:00
rasmussen81 wrote on Wed, 10 June 2009 19:42

tank commander wrote on Wed, 10 June 2009 16:12

I played the villers-Bocage scenario the other day and the combined results for the Brits for both games was: 33 shots - 10 hits and 1 kill. Those same results would have killed 2 and 1/2 elite panzer units.


So are you voting for Tigers being more powerful then? Razz Did the battle still play out the way it usually does, or did the Tiger change things?


I have seem the Tigers melt like butter in the hot sun and I have seen them have a ton of staying power. But in this scenario, I think that they do make the German forces more powerful.
      
Achtung Panzer
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Re:Tiger, or 4-Figure Special Forces Tank Unit - which is better???? Fri, 12 June 2009 09:58
I think the new Villers Bocage scenario is very dificult for the Allies - as it should be! This was a classic ambush with superior forces so you really need to play it twice and swap sides to decide the winner.

[Updated on: Thu, 18 June 2009 22:49]

      
50th
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Re:Tiger, or 4-Figure Special Forces Tank Unit - which is better???? Thu, 18 June 2009 04:38
OK, so on a friends suggestion, I made my house rules Tigers move 2 (Tigers were slow) and fire 4 3 2 1 (because of the mighty 88) My new house rules are on my armor chart available on my user page.
      
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Re:Tiger, or 4-Figure Special Forces Tank Unit - which is better???? Fri, 19 June 2009 11:41
Achtung Panzer wrote on Fri, 12 June 2009 09:58

I think the new Villers Bocage scenario is very dificult for the Allies - as it should be!

Apparently it depends upon the day! Very Happy

Yesterday I played my shortest scenario to date as it took the Brits less than 5 minutes (two turns) to kill off 3 of my Tigers!

Yeah, I know it was probably a freak accident, but it is a bit unnerving to see your first Tiger going up in flames as a result of a single hit followed by a grenade - for then to see two more direct hits a few minutes later.

At least the pain was mercifully short Shocked
      
yangtze
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Re:Tiger, or 4-Figure Special Forces Tank Unit - which is better???? Fri, 19 June 2009 14:34
They remind me of the elephants in c&c ancients in that respect, which is funny because there was a self-propelled AT gun variant of the Tiger called Elefant Very Happy
      
longbearder
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Re:Tiger, or 4-Figure Special Forces Tank Unit - which is better???? Tue, 23 June 2009 10:19
to HawkMoonVonKoln and/or Praxeo

Will we see that interesting description of Tiger usage in English? Wink
      
Praxeo
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Re:Tiger, or 4-Figure Special Forces Tank Unit - which is better???? Wed, 24 June 2009 21:23
Hi Longbearder

The translation is done, currently being reviewed.
Coming soon...

Thank you for your interest and patience.

Alex
      
    
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