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Winter Storm
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Market Garden - Important question Wed, 15 July 2009 22:32
When the allies lost a unit

which hypotesis is right (between A and B)? :

A) The allies lost a card as explained.
The maximum numbers of card they can have remain 13

The germans get a card as explained.
The maximum number of card they can have is always 13

B) The allies lost a card as explained.
The maximum numbers of card they can have is decreased by 1
(till the limit of 2 cards)

The germans get a card as explained.
The maximum number of card they can have is increased by 1
(till the limit of 13 cards)

Thanks.
Going to play it this friday

[Updated on: Wed, 15 July 2009 22:36]

      
50th
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Re:Market Garden - Important question Thu, 16 July 2009 04:43
B is correct. The allies lose a card immediately and cannot recover that card and the minimum cards is decreased by one until two cards is reached, the Germans gain a card and the max cards they can have increases by one until the limit of 13 is reached.
I played it as allies and lost. I want to play it again as axis. I think the allies can win if they get on the move immediately.
      
Winter Storm
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Re:Market Garden - Important question Fri, 17 July 2009 13:12
Very thanks
Could any one else help?


[Updated on: Fri, 17 July 2009 13:12]

      
Hawkmoon von Köln
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Re:Market Garden - Important question Fri, 17 July 2009 14:23
I don't agree with 50th...
It's written (french version) that Allies lose 1 card but it's not written that it decreases the total amount of one card...
Maximum cards for each player = 13.
Minimum = 2 (with one card kept in hand for each player).
Greetz from Le Mans Cool

      
Winter Storm
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Re:Market Garden - Important question Fri, 17 July 2009 16:21
Hawkmoon von Köln wrote on Fri, 17 July 2009 14:23

I don't agree with 50th...
It's written (french version) that Allies lose 1 card but it's not written that it decreases the total amount of one card...
Maximum cards for each player = 13.
Minimum = 2 (with one card kept in hand for each player).
Greetz from Le Mans Cool




same in the english one
thanks

now i have to go...'cos

The stage is set,
the battle lines are drawn,
and you are in command.
The rest is history

      
stevens
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Re:Market Garden - Important question Fri, 17 July 2009 23:53
It is the intent that the Allies lose TOTAL cards and the AXIS gain TOTAL cards to reflect the change of fortune that time had on the battle. If the Allies dilly-dally and don't move quickly, they will continue to be penalized. In the same vein, if the Axis show an aggresive spirit and eliminates Allied units, it begins to gain the card advantage. So it really is intentional that one gains a maximum while another reduces its maximum.
      
Winter Storm
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Re:Market Garden - Important question Sat, 18 July 2009 01:00
stevens wrote on Fri, 17 July 2009 23:53

It is the intent that the Allies lose TOTAL cards and the AXIS gain TOTAL cards to reflect the change of fortune that time had on the battle. If the Allies dilly-dally and don't move quickly, they will continue to be penalized. In the same vein, if the Axis show an aggresive spirit and eliminates Allied units, it begins to gain the card advantage. So it really is intentional that one gains a maximum while another reduces its maximum.


Every option has a downside for both the sides...
We agree to play with B****)...there was not difference because I and the other allied player had 1-3 cards less every turn.

I and N. as the allies where 12-9 close to the victory win.
Instead we lost 11-13
Congratulations to A. the "german" player.
Sad

The previous time I've played hedgerows hell and I've lost 12-13
Sad

"mancò la fortuna non il valore"

*** correction: actually we played with A). I've made a mistake writing in the post

[Updated on: Wed, 22 July 2009 12:21]

      
Shoegaze99
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Re:Market Garden - Important question Mon, 20 July 2009 18:35
Yes, B indeed. I believe this was discussed and officially clarified in another thread.

It's a really great dynamic. Quite creative, and I enjoyed how it impacted the game.
      
RBorg
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Re:Market Garden - Important question Wed, 22 July 2009 06:01
The Allied CiC starts the game with 13 Command cards, and the Axis CiC starts the game with 3 Command cards. The Allied CinC may never go below 2 cards and neither of the CiCs may ever go above 13.

As noted in the Briefing - the maximum number of cards is not reduced when Allied units are lost nor is the Axis maximum number of cards increased, neither of the CiCs may ever go above 13.

Richard Borg
      
stevens
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Re:Market Garden - Important question Wed, 22 July 2009 09:52
Dear Richard,
Thanks for jumpiing in on this discussion to clarify the card play.
So I gather that you are stating that the Allies only have a temporary card loss on the turn they lose a unit as they are allowed to still have up to 13 cards and may rebuild their hand on further turns.

QUESTION:
Does this mean that if the Allied side was down to 2 cards, the Axis side, even if it just took another Allied unit would not be able to withdraw a card and discard from the Allied side as they can't go below 2?
In corollary, if the Axis already had 12 cards in their hand, and if they destroyed an Allied unit and drew one card, would they then have no further draw at the end of their turn as they will already have 13?

      
Winter Storm
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Re:Market Garden - Important question Wed, 22 July 2009 12:22
RBorg wrote on Wed, 22 July 2009 06:01

The Allied CiC starts the game with 13 Command cards, and the Axis CiC starts the game with 3 Command cards. The Allied CinC may never go below 2 cards and neither of the CiCs may ever go above 13.

As noted in the Briefing - the maximum number of cards is not reduced when Allied units are lost nor is the Axis maximum number of cards increased, neither of the CiCs may ever go above 13.

Richard Borg


Thank you
Exceptional scenario

[Updated on: Wed, 22 July 2009 12:23]

      
Winter Storm
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Re:Market Garden - Important question Wed, 22 July 2009 12:24
stevens wrote on Wed, 22 July 2009 09:52



Does this mean that if the Allied side was down to 2 cards, the Axis side, even if it just took another Allied unit would not be able to withdraw a card and discard from the Allied side as they can't go below 2?




I think so

      
Winter Storm
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Re:Market Garden - Important question Wed, 22 July 2009 12:30
stevens wrote on Wed, 22 July 2009 09:52



In corollary, if the Axis already had 12 cards in their hand, and if they destroyed an Allied unit and drew one card, would they then have no further draw at the end of their turn as they will already have 13?






[Updated on: Thu, 23 July 2009 11:58]

      
tank commander
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Re:Market Garden - Important question Sun, 26 July 2009 00:35
RBorg wrote on Wed, 22 July 2009 00:01

The Allied CiC starts the game with 13 Command cards, and the Axis CiC starts the game with 3 Command cards. The Allied CinC may never go below 2 cards and neither of the CiCs may ever go above 13.

As noted in the Briefing - the maximum number of cards is not reduced when Allied units are lost nor is the Axis maximum number of cards increased, neither of the CiCs may ever go above 13.

Richard Borg



Which is saying that Option A is the way to play. So the German player may build up the cards is his hand by eliminating Allied units and / or by drawing more cards than he plays in a given turn.
      
50th
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Re:Market Garden - Important question Sun, 26 July 2009 06:44
So, are you saying that the allied card count stays the same? Because that's not the way I read it. I think the allied card count goes down as they lose units. That is, that they cannot recover cards taken by the German player. I think it shows the truth of what happened. The allies have to act fast, or they lose the ability to win.

      
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Re:Market Garden - Important question Sun, 26 July 2009 11:52
50th wrote on Sun, 26 July 2009 00:44

So, are you saying that the allied card count stays the same? Because that's not the way I read it. I think the allied card count goes down as they lose units. That is, that they cannot recover cards taken by the German player. I think it shows the truth of what happened. The allies have to act fast, or they lose the ability to win.





It appears that is what Richard has stated in his post. If that is the case, then the game I played last Friday was played incorrectly.
      
tank commander
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Re:Market Garden - Important question Sun, 26 July 2009 12:17
RBorg wrote on Wed, 22 July 2009 00:01

As noted in the Briefing - the maximum number of cards is not reduced when Allied units are lost nor is the Axis maximum number of cards increased, neither of the CiCs may ever go above 13.
Richard Borg



Market-Garden Briefing:

"During the game, the Axis Commander in Chief (CinC) increases his hand by 1 Command card drawn from the top of the Command deck,each time the Allies lose a unit;and the Allies CinC simultaneously lose 1 Command card for each unit he loses. The cards are drawn at random from the Allied CinC hand by the Axis CinC, and immediately discarded. All cards gained or lost during a turn are drawn or discarded as each unit lose occurs, not all at turn's end. Also the Allied CinC may never go below 2 cards, and neither of the CinCs may ever go above 13.

I do not see the underlined section from Richard's post in the Briefing above. The Briefing does state that both player's Max hand size is 13 and it does not mention (as pointed out above) that the Allied card total is reduced permanently.
      
ad79
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Re:Market Garden - Important question Sun, 26 July 2009 12:18
I played it as stated in B and had a blast. Very fun to be the Axis and having to work for the cards. Also very frustrating as the Allies to lose the card you were planning on using, just because the Axis elliminated a unit.

But as Richard stated A is the way to play it, so I will have to try that too.

Has anyone tried it with both A and B and is there any difference?
      
50th
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Re:Market Garden - Important question Mon, 27 July 2009 05:52
ad79 wrote on Sun, 26 July 2009 05:18

I played it as stated in B and had a blast. Very fun to be the Axis and having to work for the cards. Also very frustrating as the Allies to lose the card you were planning on using, just because the Axis elliminated a unit.

But as Richard stated A is the way to play it, so I will have to try that too.

Has anyone tried it with both A and B and is there any difference?


I played it as B and lost my shirt as the allies. I liked it, and wanted to play it again as allies to try a more aggressive strategy. I figured it would make sure the allies were aggressive, or they would lose! They were not aggressive enough and lost!


      
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Re:Market Garden - Important question Mon, 27 July 2009 20:39
My sons, their friends and I have played Market Garden 4 times. I was under the false assumption that B was the way to play it. Even at that, the Allies won three close games. The German victory was a slaughter, 13-8. To me, the British paratroopers are the key. If they can take Remagen, hold out and also inflict serious damage the Allies have a good chance of winning. In the German victory, good dice rolls decimated them. I kinda like the B way of playing. As 50th said you got to be very aggressive with the Allies before the paratroopers are all eliminated and your options become too limited. I honestly don't know if I'll try the right (A) way. The B option we played was fantastic.
      
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Re:Market Garden - Important question Tue, 28 July 2009 11:11
LooneyLlama wrote on Mon, 27 July 2009 20:39

My sons, their friends and I have played Market Garden 4 times. I was under the false assumption that B was the way to play it. Even at that, the Allies won three close games. The German victory was a slaughter, 13-8. To me, the British paratroopers are the key. If they can take Remagen, hold out and also inflict serious damage the Allies have a good chance of winning. In the German victory, good dice rolls decimated them. I kinda like the B way of playing. As 50th said you got to be very aggressive with the Allies before the paratroopers are all eliminated and your options become too limited. I honestly don't know if I'll try the right (A) way. The B option we played was fantastic.


Glad you've enjoyed M44 and Market Garden
Did you usee the Tiger?
My "german" friend didn't use it in all the time of the game
Instead two of his armour units (after been reduced to a single figure) survived 7 (withour retreat) and 3 (in close combat against a tank) rolls thrown against them.
      
LooneyLlama
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Re:Market Garden - Important question Tue, 28 July 2009 17:08
Hi Winter Storm,

Your question is very interesting. The Tiger was not used during the Allied victories. It proved effective, though not decisive, in the German victory. It did inflict damage on the American paratroopers crossing the river but the -2 dice roll for tanks against infantry in forests limited it's effectiveness. It did pin these troops down throughout the battle. The German tanks on the other side in the same section are also important. Get them to the forest hex near the bridge to inflict some damage on the British, especially if they haven't reached the town hexes yet. If playing as Allies, you MUST get the British paratroopers to the town hexes ASAP to protect them from destruction! In my opinion, this section is decisive for Allied victory!

Eric
      
50th
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Re:Market Garden - Important question Thu, 30 July 2009 01:51
I have not had the opportunity to play this the right way yet. Has anyone played both ways and looked at the outcomes? Also, why on one Tiger?

      
Achtung Panzer
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Re:Market Garden - Important question Fri, 07 August 2009 20:00
50th wrote on Sun, 26 July 2009 05:44

So, are you saying that the allied card count stays the same? Because that's not the way I read it. I think the allied card count goes down as they lose units. That is, that they cannot recover cards taken by the German player. I think it shows the truth of what happened. The allies have to act fast, or they lose the ability to win.


They key word is maximum. Yes the German player can increase his hand each turn by playing only one card and picking up two, but that will hand the initiative to the Allies who will no doubt be playing three cards each turn from the start to act quickly. This too seems to represent the "race against time" aspect of the scanario Smile


      
Winter Storm
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Re:Market Garden - Important question Sat, 08 August 2009 19:33
LooneyLlama wrote on Tue, 28 July 2009 17:08

Hi Winter Storm,

Your question is very interesting. The Tiger was not used during the Allied victories. It proved effective, though not decisive, in the German victory. It did inflict damage on the American paratroopers crossing the river but the -2 dice roll for tanks against infantry in forests limited it's effectiveness. It did pin these troops down throughout the battle. The German tanks on the other side in the same section are also important. Get them to the forest hex near the bridge to inflict some damage on the British, especially if they haven't reached the town hexes yet. If playing as Allies, you MUST get the British paratroopers to the town hexes ASAP to protect them from destruction! In my opinion, this section is decisive for Allied victory!

Eric


Hi. I played the scenario again, this time with the germans.
I didn't move the Tiger. Instead it cast four die (in four turns) again a british airborne unit scoring four hits. Tiger rules!
      
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Re:Market Garden - Important question Sun, 09 August 2009 18:33
tank commander wrote on Sun, 26 July 2009 03:17

RBorg wrote on Wed, 22 July 2009 00:01

As noted in the Briefing - the maximum number of cards is not reduced when Allied units are lost nor is the Axis maximum number of cards increased, neither of the CiCs may ever go above 13.
Richard Borg



Market-Garden Briefing:

"During the game, the Axis Commander in Chief (CinC) increases his hand by 1 Command card drawn from the top of the Command deck,each time the Allies lose a unit;and the Allies CinC simultaneously lose 1 Command card for each unit he loses. The cards are drawn at random from the Allied CinC hand by the Axis CinC, and immediately discarded. All cards gained or lost during a turn are drawn or discarded as each unit lose occurs, not all at turn's end. Also the Allied CinC may never go below 2 cards, and neither of the CinCs may ever go above 13.

I do not see the underlined section from Richard's post in the Briefing above. The Briefing does state that both player's Max hand size is 13 and it does not mention (as pointed out above) that the Allied card total is reduced permanently.


I couldn't tell if this question/issue was ever resolved to everyone's satisfaction.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but this is my understanding from what Richard said and what other's have said:

The max and min number of cards is never effected during this scenario. Neither side can ever have more than 13 cards or less than 2 cards. Each time the Axis eliminate a unit they get to draw a card...but it does not mean they now get to hold 14 cards! When the Allies loose a unit, they also loose a card...but it does not mean they can go below 2 cards.

In effect, the Allies are loosing cards (bleeding them, if you will) and the Axis are gaining cards as the battle continues, but neither side can ever hold more than 13 cards or less than 2 cards. If the Axis are already holding 13 cards and they eliminate another unit, they don't get to draw a new card because that would put them at 14 cards...in the same way, the Allies wouldn't have to discard if they loose a unit but only have 2 cards in their hand.

Did I get that right? Very Happy
      
stevens
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Re:Market Garden - Important question Sun, 09 August 2009 21:42
Quote:

Neither side can ever have more than 13 cards or less than 2 cards.

No, the minimum limit only applies to the Allies! So you almost got it right!


Laughing Laughing Laughing

[Updated on: Sun, 09 August 2009 21:44]

      
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Re:Market Garden - Important question Sun, 09 August 2009 21:52
stevens wrote on Sun, 09 August 2009 12:42

Quote:

Neither side can ever have more than 13 cards or less than 2 cards.

No, the minimum limit only applies to the Allies! So you almost got it right!


Laughing Laughing Laughing


Good enough! I actually haven't ever played the battle, so now that I have the rules in mind I can be sure I'm playing it right. Thanks guys!

I just had a thought, though. Don't the normal rules for Overlord say something about a minimum of 3 cards in your hand at all times? I might have that wrong... Rolling Eyes
      
ad79
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Re:Market Garden - Important question Sun, 09 August 2009 23:42
rasmussen81 wrote on Sun, 09 August 2009 21:52

stevens wrote on Sun, 09 August 2009 12:42

Quote:

Neither side can ever have more than 13 cards or less than 2 cards.

No, the minimum limit only applies to the Allies! So you almost got it right!


Laughing Laughing Laughing


Good enough! I actually haven't ever played the battle, so now that I have the rules in mind I can be sure I'm playing it right. Thanks guys!

I just had a thought, though. Don't the normal rules for Overlord say something about a minimum of 3 cards in your hand at all times? I might have that wrong... Rolling Eyes


Normal rule:
You cannot go below 1, so when you draw 2 cards at the end of your turn, you are back up to 3. So you always have 3 cards at the start of your turn.

In Market Garden the Allies will always have 4 to choose from, because they cannot go below 2.
      
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Re:Market Garden - Important question Mon, 10 August 2009 00:03
In Market Garden the Allies will always have 4 to choose from....

Umm, if the Allies did drop to 2 cards and they played one, they would only get 2 back (unless the card played was a Recon 1 card). So, they would never have less than 3 to choose from.

[Updated on: Mon, 10 August 2009 00:03]

      
stevens
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Re:Market Garden - Important question Mon, 10 August 2009 16:46
Think of it this way.
Allies have three cards at the end of their turn. Axis turn - they kill 2 Allied units. Instead of taking 2 cards from the Allies to discard, they only take 1. Allies now have 2 cards. This is below what they would have in normal overlord game, however, this scenario just happens to have these special rules.

[Updated on: Mon, 10 August 2009 16:52]

      
Winter Storm
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Re:Market Garden - Important question Mon, 10 August 2009 18:42
stevens wrote on Mon, 10 August 2009 16:46

Think of it this way.
Allies have three cards at the end of their turn. Axis turn - they kill 2 Allied units. Instead of taking 2 cards from the Allies to discard, they only take 1. Allies now have 2 cards. This is below what they would have in normal overlord game, however, this scenario just happens to have these special rules.


I agree with Stevens.
      
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Re:Market Garden - Important question Mon, 10 August 2009 18:52
That's very clear, Stevens. Thanks for the articulate and concise answer. Now I know how to play it and I'm starting to get excited about this battle because it sounds like everyone enjoys it! Cool
      
    
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