Five Tribes Five Tribes

Forums

Search
Forums » T2R Competitive Play - English » NC 2009 - Discussion
Show: Today's Posts 
  
AuthorTopic
RFAD - Saint-Emilion
Senior Member

User Pages
Posts: 3618
Registered:
May 2005
Re:NC 2009 - Discussion Tue, 25 August 2009 10:48
ok ok shame on me.... for simplicity (an not humiliation) i propose to play the Nation Cup in new rule for masimo : 1 game and... not play : starter win ! Cool no ? not humiliation, not lesson, not... not....

3 games per week ? pfeww..... in TTR league we play 7 games and they are no problem. How may time i heard "it's a game of luck"... and with 3 game you said "oki, it's done" ? Sad

In my post i said "ask for vote" because i think the title of thread is "discussion"... but it's maybe an error of my part


P.S. "lbl" is for french player, no problem ? i forget german player learn when he win and forget when he lose.

[Updated on: Tue, 25 August 2009 10:49]

      
OLE Masimo
Senior Member
T2R FEUd Cup 2009 Winner

User Pages
Posts: 809
Registered:
November 2004
Re:NC 2009 - Discussion Tue, 25 August 2009 11:43
aiiiiiii - seems german and french humor do not coordinate well ... really RFAD I DO love lbl - as long as my opponent does it Smile

and I did understand your request for a vote - you may read the new NC 2009 board thread that I just opened - all these first requests are in there. As I said before - it is logical that some may have different oppinions about the rules. And it may happen that you will not get your ideas through again - thats democratism (or something like that Twisted Evil I remember we argued quite a bit about that last year - or is it two years ago?))

and when you say "only" 3 games/week - well, MY team has at least 15 games that I would like to watch (to explain that to our french friends: we OLEs do not only care about our own games but about those of our teammates as well Cool ) and usually there are quite a lot of other interesting games going that I would like to see ..... "lbw" (learning by watching)

RFAD as I see it - THAT is the big big unbeaten aspect of the NC - if you want to you get to see a huge number of games with very differing and sometimes really interesting pairings - and even some really great upsets too. It is THE spectator event. The more individual games there are the less will we be able to watch (at least those of us with limited time). But thats only my 0.0000.....
      
RFAD - Saint-Emilion
Senior Member

User Pages
Posts: 3618
Registered:
May 2005
Re:NC 2009 - Discussion Tue, 25 August 2009 14:29
OLE Masimo écrit le Tue, 25 August 2009 11:43


and when you say "only" 3 games/week - well, MY team has at least 15 games that I would like to watch (to explain that to our french friends: we OLEs do not only care about our own games but about those of our teammates as well Cool ) and usually there are quite a lot of other interesting games going that I would like to see ..... "lbw" (learning by watching)


How many TA TA TAM per game of TGV each year in NC ? Rolling Eyes

But i look the new thread so... let's "democraty" speak Smile
      
kolmo
Senior Member

User Pages
Posts: 556
Registered:
November 2006
Re:NC 2009 - Discussion Tue, 25 August 2009 22:56
Requiem For A Dream écrit le Tue, 25 August 2009 08:29

How many TA TA TAM per game of TGV each year in NC ? Rolling Eyes



Too much.
      
Elric - Sancerre
Senior Member
T2R Nation Cup 2005 Winner

User Pages
Posts: 1642
Registered:
May 2005
Re:NC 2009 - Discussion Tue, 25 August 2009 23:15
kolmo écrit le Tue, 25 August 2009 22:56

Requiem For A Dream écrit le Tue, 25 August 2009 08:29

How many TA TA TAM per game of TGV each year in NC ? Rolling Eyes



Too much.


Jealous ? Very Happy
      
kolmo
Senior Member

User Pages
Posts: 556
Registered:
November 2006
Re:NC 2009 - Discussion Wed, 26 August 2009 00:56
Elric - Sancerre écrit le Tue, 25 August 2009 17:15

kolmo écrit le Tue, 25 August 2009 22:56

Requiem For A Dream écrit le Tue, 25 August 2009 08:29

How many TA TA TAM per game of TGV each year in NC ? Rolling Eyes



Too much.


Jealous ? Very Happy


Too unfair. Too fast.
      
foudecoasters - Cerdon
Senior Member
Second Lieutenant

User Pages
Posts: 881
Registered:
March 2007
Re:NC 2009 - Discussion Wed, 26 August 2009 11:03
exemple for a group with 9 or 10 teams ( with a nations cup with 18-19-20 Teams ) :

with microsoft excel ( 2003 for me ) :

http://cjoint.com/?iAk3J3iwQd
      
AAA_Lucullupus
Senior Member

User Pages
Posts: 756
Registered:
July 2008
  Re:NC 2009 - Discussion Wed, 26 August 2009 19:58
foudecoaster, its not a problem to create a schedule of 10 teams round robin - its the question, whether we want 9 weeks round robin and few knock out matches or less weeks round robin and 16 teams in the knock outs... Rolling Eyes
      
foudecoasters - Cerdon
Senior Member
Second Lieutenant

User Pages
Posts: 881
Registered:
March 2007
Re:NC 2009 - Discussion Wed, 26 August 2009 20:38
the problem is the system with 3 groups ! not fair system!

with 4 groups and 18 teams ? 2 groups of 4 teams???? Shocked Shocked Shocked
only 3 weeks in Nations cup !

to avoid that, and to avoid the horrible and unfair system of 3 groups, my choice is 2 groups for 10-20 teams yes... longuest RR! no problem ! I prefer 9 weeks, and i hate idéa of 3 or 4 weeks, and more idea of a unfair system : 3 groups....

just my opinion lucu... Very Happy

[Updated on: Wed, 26 August 2009 20:39]

      
AAA_Lucullupus
Senior Member

User Pages
Posts: 756
Registered:
July 2008
Re:NC 2009 - Discussion Thu, 27 August 2009 10:36
Dear Foudecoaster,

I am sure that we will have at least 24 teams. Therefore four groops with 6 or 7 teams are the best solution (my opinion).
      
foudecoasters - Cerdon
Senior Member
Second Lieutenant

User Pages
Posts: 881
Registered:
March 2007
Re:NC 2009 - Discussion Thu, 27 August 2009 14:42
agree with you with 24 teams ! ( or 20+ )

Very Happy

not for 10-20 teams !

Very Happy

      
Sysyphus - Pommard
Senior Member
T2R All Around Tournament 2011 Winner

User Pages
Posts: 2562
Registered:
December 2007
Re:NC 2009 - Discussion Thu, 27 August 2009 15:35
It will be hard to reach 24 teams

Registered :

5 German
1 French
1 Swiss
1 Finnish
2 US
1 Austrian

= 11.

To be registered ?

1 French Only
1 Dutch
1 US
1 Italian (very high chances from what i've heard from Q)
1 Catalunya/Spain
1 Tnt (TRUE is back)

= 17

What else ?

GB, Belgium, Greece & Canada = between 2 and 3 teams

1 more German or Austrian ? Some former transalpin joined AT so i guess no more team for Austria. The basis of the former GTS team joined UEG. Don't know if Colo will join or build a new team.

The best we have if we are lucky is 22...But i may forget some teams..
      
Wildfire2099
Senior Member

Posts: 654
Registered:
June 2005
Re:NC 2009 - Discussion Thu, 27 August 2009 15:59
Why would 3 groups be unfair? The structure would just have to be a bit different.

the top 2 in each group could form a group, and then a round robin could be done for the championship instead of a knockout....
with maybe a final between the top two there for drama.

Or the three 3rd place teams could have a mini-round robin to determine teams 7 and 8 for the knockout portion.


I think as long as we get to 20 teams, though, 4 groups works.
      
AGT-DN
Senior Member

User Pages
Posts: 867
Registered:
November 2006
Re:NC 2009 - Discussion Thu, 27 August 2009 16:32
Just a little advice ... Masimo asked about the division's structure in current board decision # 2

also see NC BOARD 2009

2. The rules have a paragraph 13.5 "tournament overview" where the division into groups is shown starting with 6 teams up to 24. Is there the demand to change this division system.

[...]

2.
YES - change the given division of teams into groups
NO - leave the rules as they are
      
Colo
Senior Member

Posts: 268
Registered:
June 2007
Re:NC 2009 - Discussion Thu, 27 August 2009 16:55
Sysy - Madiran schrieb am Thu, 27 August 2009 15:35

Don't know if Colo will join or build a new team.

neither, nor

I am open for bribes to be a fan of almost any team. Currently TIC is in pool position for that. They offered chocolate cakes and a best-of-100 with Hecki (I declined on the latter).

While I am not playing, allow me one remark about grouping teams: any system including an extra relegation sounds thrilling. Why not even make that relegation be played by just one member of each team, face to face, ... best-of-1, wouldn't that be drama!?!
      
AAA_Lucullupus
Senior Member

User Pages
Posts: 756
Registered:
July 2008
  Re:NC 2009 - Discussion Thu, 27 August 2009 18:42
1-2 french teams? last year we had at least 4!!! Shocked
      
foudecoasters - Cerdon
Senior Member
Second Lieutenant

User Pages
Posts: 881
Registered:
March 2007
Re:NC 2009 - Discussion Fri, 28 August 2009 08:39
france : 4 teams in 2008 , 2 in 2009

austria : 2 teams in 2008 , 1 in 2009

50%

the same

what else lucu ? Very Happy Very Happy Very Happy Very Happy
      
foudecoasters - Cerdon
Senior Member
Second Lieutenant

User Pages
Posts: 881
Registered:
March 2007
Re:NC 2009 - Discussion Fri, 28 August 2009 08:42
Wildfire2099 écrit le Thu, 27 August 2009 15:59



Or the three 3rd place teams could have a mini-round robin to determine teams 7 and 8 for the knockout portion.





agree wildfire ! a fair system like that.

for 3 groups:

2 players of 3th-groupA VS 2 players of 3th-groupB
2 players of 3th-groupA VS 2 players of 3th-groupC
2 players of 3th-groupB VS 2 players of 3th-groupC

the 2 first teams of this little championship go in quarter

1 week for this round after RR

For the quarter:

Best first team have the first choice of opponent
second after
3th after

all first can't choice an opponent of his group

example of quarters :

quarter A : Best First - his choice
quarter B : between the 2 others teams
quarter C : second Fisrt - his choice
quarter D : 3th first - his choice

example of semis :

Semi 1 : winner of quarter A - winner of quarter B
semi 2 : winner of quarter C - winner of quarter D


( just for information 20 teams in 4 groups generate only 4 match/team in RR... very short pleasure )


BUT :


i prefer always only 2 groups



Very Happy

[Updated on: Fri, 28 August 2009 09:18]

      
OLE Masimo
Senior Member
T2R FEUd Cup 2009 Winner

User Pages
Posts: 809
Registered:
November 2004
Re:NC 2009 - Discussion Fri, 28 August 2009 19:36
Wildfire2099 schrieb am Thu, 27 August 2009 15:59

Why would 3 groups be unfair? The structure would just have to be a bit different.


and all the following arguments about groupdividings really make me feel as if noone has read the current rules yet?

RULES: "17-22: Round robin, 3 groups, with QF, SF and F. Best 2 numbers 3 qualify too, ..." system is already set including a section where we might play in three groups.

Please - i repeat myself - a lot of effort has been put into the current rules by some of us (most of the time very few players were really active in rule developing like dea, bassie and few others) and we tried to take care of every possible problem/situation. Of course these rules will never meet EVERYBODYS ideas and expectations - that is just not possible. And you will see in the outcome of the recent vote that we will not get 100% agreement. That is ok and should be accepted even by those whos wishes are not accepted. Else the only possible way is to play different NCs with always differing rules (and 1-2 teams per event). Not a good idea.

Still this discussion is good and needed, thats why I took it to the board. Let`s see what the outcome will bring - and please all you reps that have not voted yet - do so - it is important that we get a good overview.
      
ACP Miguel
Senior Member
T2R Swiss Map Championship 2011 Winner

User Pages
Posts: 591
Registered:
October 2006
Re:NC 2009 - Discussion Sat, 29 August 2009 13:28
olof is replacing me for TRUE.

still i saw in registration and i doubt that is within the rules.
white tgv wanna take my precious Geoff (LOL he's good from belgium so i guess he could be Transnational eheheh kidd' i think Olof was already selected his members so we most likely wont take Geoff) i have no problem with that really but as we had in the past that was not allowed.

if there are frenchs enought to make a team then u cannot include other nations or that changed? just asking to be sure how can Olof make the TRUE selection cause what i explained was diff what i'm watching now

Best Regards
      
toutoune - Morgon
Senior Member
T2R Nation Cup 2005 Winner

Posts: 1607
Registered:
March 2005
Re:NC 2009 - Discussion Sat, 29 August 2009 18:20
Just to point out something regarding Geoff, wanting play for TGV (White).

1. before playing for Belgium in 2008, he played for TNT in 2007. Before playing for TNT in 2007, he played for... TGV in 2006.

2. as he told in the french forum, he said he missed some fun and pleasure when he took part of transnational team, because of his english skills. He just played when the captain said, and he was not able to "participate" in the team life because of language difficulties, so he didn't really feel the NC taste that year. "Playing NC games was like playing non NC games". So that he will not play NC at all if he can't join TGV.

So I know there are rules, but this is a game and it is about everyone pleasure. And I don't see how Geoff joining White TGV will spoile everyone's pleasure. If needed, captains could vote for this case?
      
ACP Miguel
Senior Member
T2R Swiss Map Championship 2011 Winner

User Pages
Posts: 591
Registered:
October 2006
Re:NC 2009 - Discussion Sat, 29 August 2009 18:31
TT i understand your opinion and since i have nothing than positive remarks about geoff i would welcome him playing for White TGV.

still this question was raised after Geoff played for TGV when the vast majority decided that rules should be strict when forming teams. but my point is

are we playing with new rules?
can we submit a player for board approval?

i'm not captain or BR still i wont make any move to prevent Geoff from playing as TGV, just need to ask how is it going to be and which are rules and exceptions.
      
Sysyphus - Pommard
Senior Member
T2R All Around Tournament 2011 Winner

User Pages
Posts: 2562
Registered:
December 2007
Re:NC 2009 - Discussion Sun, 30 August 2009 01:49
Rules are :

12 Players that are overhangs of registered nations may join transnational teams as in 11 regarding rule 8. In special cases a NC board may allow these players upon request to join a registered nations team (language problems i.e.).

Wink
      
ACP Miguel
Senior Member
T2R Swiss Map Championship 2011 Winner

User Pages
Posts: 591
Registered:
October 2006
Re:NC 2009 - Discussion Sun, 30 August 2009 22:51
hummm partial quote i guess.

rule number 12 says

12. Players that are overhangs of registered nations may join transnational teams as in 11 regarding rule 8. In special cases a NC board may allow these players upon request to join a registered nations team (language problems i.e.). No national team that has declared itself 'complete' (= has rejected one or more players of their own country) may ever be joined by a player from a different country. There will be a "Split registration" in two phases, part one for the national teams, part two for the TN Teams and overhangs. In phase one only national teams can register. Two weeks before the start of the NC phase two will be opened to leave the remaining players possibility to form transnational teams regarding the rules.

geoff is not overhang of a registered nation, and u could clear how many tgvs u have already signed in.

rule number 9 says

9. Any country that has 6 or more players listed in the player/country list HAS to try to form their own national team. No team can reject a player of the same nationality unless they register a full team. If they fail to get 6 players together - see 11.
9.1 several teams per country are allowed.

so does this mean u cannot joing 6 frenchs willing to play?

and i still back that have no problem with geoff playing as tgv. just clear the rules,

      
OLE Masimo
Senior Member
T2R FEUd Cup 2009 Winner

User Pages
Posts: 809
Registered:
November 2004
Re:NC 2009 - Discussion Mon, 31 August 2009 10:02
I hope I can clear this point for you -

first I would like to express that the rules do not favour Geoff`s wish to play for a french team and I am sorry for that. BUT we had really harsh arguments with bad offenses some time ago which were the reason to develope the "TNT rules" and for starting the board. Now we cannot start to bend these rules or accept exeptions just because Geoff is a nice player (Sorry Geoff) - we would get ourselves in big trouble just in case something else might occure next year! It would be desastrous to have a case others could point back to!

Now to the rules and the procedure Geoff will have to follow:

1. Geoff will have to wait if a Belgic team forms and then play there (what about BBB? - are they not going to play?) - if he chooses not to play in that team, for whatever reason - then he can`t play NC at all - (we were that strict with Anu, no exeption posible for Geoff)
2. If there will be no Belgic team or that team rejects Geoff, then he may choose to play transnational.
3. If Geoff feels he cann`t play transnational due to language problems he may appeal to the board and ask if he can join a team that speaks his language - and that may then be a french team - yes - IF the board accepts that.

PLEASE - do not understand me wrong - personally I would really like easier solutions and if you read back in the forum - it was always my position to allow ANYONE to play NC. But I do not want to get the problems back we had two years ago (remember we discussed to have very strict national teams only etc. - the NC was about to get cancelled and we lost our TD! very sad time for some of us!) - I think we have a very good compromise now taking care of almost every thinkable circumstance and we should not weaken that!
      
toutoune - Morgon
Senior Member
T2R Nation Cup 2005 Winner

Posts: 1607
Registered:
March 2005
Re:NC 2009 - Discussion Mon, 31 August 2009 19:41
OLE Masimo écrit le Mon, 31 August 2009 10:02



Now to the rules and the procedure Geoff will have to follow:

1. Geoff will have to wait if a Belgic team forms and then play there (what about BBB? - are they not going to play?) - if he chooses not to play in that team, for whatever reason - then he can`t play NC at all - (we were that strict with Anu, no exeption posible for Geoff)
2. If there will be no Belgic team or that team rejects Geoff, then he may choose to play transnational.
3. If Geoff feels he cann`t play transnational due to language problems he may appeal to the board and ask if he can join a team that speaks his language - and that may then be a french team - yes - IF the board accepts that.



easy answers
1. Geoff is the BBB captain. He tried without success to reconduct his team this year. He opened a thread in french forum for that. conclusion: No Belgian team this year.
2. agree
3. yes Geoff feels he can't play for non french speaking team. (btw, that is why I take the responsability to write here). So we went to the same conclusion, back to some posts before: Request for a decision vote. And IMHO, it is more to captains (or TD) to vote than Board. Board is just here to decide NC rules, not to decide on exceptions, isn't it? Another option: Geoff joining canadians if they can communicate in french?

[Updated on: Mon, 31 August 2009 19:43]

      
kolmo
Senior Member

User Pages
Posts: 556
Registered:
November 2006
Re:NC 2009 - Discussion Mon, 31 August 2009 20:31
When are we going to know how many rounds we'll play ?

PS: There is a lumberjack village in Gaspésie (St-Alphonse-de-Caplan) that was founded by Belgians. Maybe one of Geoff ancestors was among them ?
      
OLE Masimo
Senior Member
T2R FEUd Cup 2009 Winner

User Pages
Posts: 809
Registered:
November 2004
Re:NC 2009 - Discussion Tue, 01 September 2009 10:53
@ Kolmo: there are 20 teams registered as for today - if it stays like that we`ll play in 4 groups with 5 teams and 8 teams advanving to KO.

@ toutoune/geoff:
thanks tt for doing the language part for Geoff - following your explanation I agree that Geoff could play for a french team. That will - for my understanding - be within the rules (btw. the language barrier was the reason we had added that very special part in the TN rules two years ago. It is the ONLY exception that a player can join a national team that is not of his own nation)

Now who to apply to whether such a player can play in a national team? - TD could decide, but I always felt very sorry for Thadd when she took a decision and was heavily attacked for that. I think we should save the TDs authority for adhoc decisions that need to be taken fast! Everything else should be ruled without the possibility of blaming ONE person! So lets decide these things in a larger group - which of course could be the captains but the board reps as well (at least I still hope they coordinate their decisions with their team/captain) - in my eyes that makes no big difference.

If noone disagrees I will go ahead and ask the board if we`ll allow Geoff to play for white tgv or not.
      
toutoune - Morgon
Senior Member
T2R Nation Cup 2005 Winner

Posts: 1607
Registered:
March 2005
Re:NC 2009 - Discussion Fri, 11 September 2009 23:51
Just for information, alternative ranking of teams vs ID number average (then seniority):

TEAM SENIORITY RANKING
Unity Express Germany (UEG, Germany I)
Our Laughing Express (OLE, Germany II)
The Incredible Champion Hunters (TIC, Germany IV)
Transalpin (TA, Austria II)
Austrian Troublemakers (AT, Austria I)
Red TGV (Red, France I)
Swiss Mountain Power (SMP, Switzerland I)
theTeam (TT, USA I)
Catalunya (CAT, Spain I)
Transnational Rocks U Everytime (TRUE, Transnational I)
Team ReBuilt (TRB, Germany III)
White TGV (White, France II)
Supercalifragilisticexpialidocious Oranje Superstars (SOS, Netherlands I)
American Multi Dominators (AMD, USA II)
Italia (ITA, Italy I)
Team Dope (TD, USA II)
Another German Team (AGT, Germany V)
Royal Canadian Mounted Police (RCMP, Transnational III)
Team Finland (FIN, Finland I)
Next German Heroes (NGH, Germany VI)
British-Hellenic TNT (BH, Transnational II)



Top 10 senior players:
SMP-tchols 34437
UEG-Mudda 35562
AT_Angel6 37527
OLE Masimo   37619
TA_Wernerus 37989
TRUE Loan 43732
NGH-Zaco2 47970
UEG-womble 48051
TRB ThoMue1982 48598
OLE Robomat 49588

Top 10 junior players:
NGH-Lehmix 548869
ITA_B Flat Minor 516115
RCMP-barneyg 505074
NGH-snuggle 480170
NGH-Staudenexpress 478032
BH-Hrundi_Bakshi 471752
BH-kostas 471446
Zügle 469016
TRUE Mary Mary 460892
AT_Lucullupus 460846



[Updated on: Fri, 11 September 2009 23:52]

      
AAA_dea1
Senior Member
T2R Nation Cup 2007 Winner

Posts: 1982
Registered:
September 2005
Re:NC 2009 - Discussion Sat, 12 September 2009 15:23
same procedure as every year ...
We need a schedule

Here's a suggestion - I guess there's not much of an alternative if we want to finish in time for the masters (dec 11-13) and everybody's Christmas plans.

@SKM: Can you please check if that's feasible for you and (hopefully) confirm that

@Masimo: I suggest, if nobody objects in the next three days we consider that as decided - OK?

@DOW: Please mind the date of the Final and don't apply any patches the night before Wink

Schedule (all times 11:00 p, GMT)
round robin
round # - lineups in - lineups posted - playing time till
1       - 09.09.     - 11.09.         - 20.09.
2       - 16.09.     - 18.09.         - 27.09.
3       - 23.09.     - 25.09.         - 04.10.
4       - 30.09.     - 02.10.         - 11.10.
5       - 07.10.     - 09.10.         - 18.10.
6       - 14.10.     - 16.10.         - 25.10.
7       - 21.10.     - 23.10.         - 01.11.


KO
Matchups for KO12 posted on Monday, 02.11.
stage   - lineups in - lineups posted - playing time till
KO12    - Tue, 03.11.- Wed, 04.11.    - Thu, 12.11.
QF      - Fri, 13.11.- Sat, 14.11.    - Sun, 22.11.
SF      - Mon, 23.11.- Tue, 24.11.    - Wed, 02.12.
Final   - Thu, 03.12.- Fri, 04.12.  

Suggested date for the Final: Saturday, December 5th
(Teams shall try to be available at that date if it all possible - otherwise time until Thursday, Dec 10th, as the masters starts on the 11th)
      
SMP-bassie
Senior Member

Posts: 494
Registered:
January 2005
Re:NC 2009 - Discussion Sun, 13 September 2009 14:31
@ dea: Even when my opinion wasn't asked - and rightly so! - I want to thank you for your precision as usual. I like the schedule.
      
SKMorefield
Senior Member

User Pages
Posts: 621
Registered:
January 2005
Re:NC 2009 - Discussion Sun, 13 September 2009 21:37
I like this schedule also!
      
OLE Masimo
Senior Member
T2R FEUd Cup 2009 Winner

User Pages
Posts: 809
Registered:
November 2004
Re:NC 2009 - Discussion Tue, 15 September 2009 08:16
Cool Cool Cool

three days over - no complain - I guess, dea, we consider your schedule as decided.

And ask Dom to post it like that on Tiki? - Thanks ahead for that.
      
AGT-DN
Senior Member

User Pages
Posts: 867
Registered:
November 2006
Re:NC 2009 - Discussion Tue, 15 September 2009 19:59
Request of Schedule-update on Tiki

And ask Dom to post it like that on Tiki?


>> DONE

Just a silly question...

(all times 11:00 p, GMT)


Does GMT turn to summer time??? I don't think so...11 pm GMT then would be 01.00 CEST next day, not midnight ?!?
      
Pages (2): [ «  <  1  2 ]     
Previous Topic:NC BOARD 2009/vote for KO phase
Next Topic:BraveLittleTailor
Goto Forum: