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Hawkmoon von Köln
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"Advanced" M44 Sun, 13 September 2009 11:35
Hi, comrades of the english forum !

First of all, sorry for my bad english...

I create this message for a proposal (I know that you are very good at lobbying with DoW) :

M44 is a great game easy to play, but I think (I'm hoping, I'm not alone) that it would be interesting in making it a little more complex adding some rules created by players and for example listed by Rasmussen81.

DoW policy is to keep M44 as an easy family game but I think there's a place for more difficult rules for ones of us. So, I launch an appeal to have (like for Dungeons & Dragons) advanced rules for M44 based on works already available (if authors are OK) and officialy recognized by DoW that can make the edition of a new rulebook...

Gentlemen (but not only, ladies are welcome), I wanna know your opinion about that...

Greetz from Le Mans Cool
      
Vulch
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Re:"Advanced" M44 Sun, 13 September 2009 12:29
Personally I would hate to see that happen. What first attracted me to M44 (after looking at a lot of alternatives) was the fairly simple and easy to learn rules.

There are a lot of other games on the market if you want something more complex, so lets leave M44 as it is and as it was devised.

Keep it simple, keep it fun.

PS: your English is fine.
      
GreatDane
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Re:"Advanced" M44 Sun, 13 September 2009 12:32
I think it is great that people make up their own rules, but they belong on a fan site (or one the user pages).

There are questions enough from people i this forum as it is. I don't think of the mix-ups that are bound to happend when people confuse one set of rules with the other.

And it was bad enough when DoW 'wasted' resources on Battlelore. I much prefer to have the different Command & Color games published by different publishers (Avalon Hill, Days of Wonders, GMT Games, Fantasy Flight) as it means maximum development resources for each game.

Personally I am not interested in more detailed rules, as I prefer to play Conflict of Heroes and other wargames when I am in that mood.
      
Hawkmoon von Köln
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Re:"Advanced" M44 Sun, 13 September 2009 14:02
Why not a P500 program with suscription like GMT for Ancients for interested people ?
      
Achtung Panzer
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Re:"Advanced" M44 Sun, 13 September 2009 15:50
Vulch wrote on Sun, 13 September 2009 11:29

Personally I would hate to see that happen. What first attracted me to M44 (after looking at a lot of alternatives) was the fairly simple and easy to learn rules.


I agree. If I want more complexity I play an Overlord / Breakthrough scenario with lots of terrain and special rules / units. A couple of hours solo play meets my needs. Smile


      
eric
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Re:"Advanced" M44 Sun, 13 September 2009 18:36
Hawkmoon von Köln wrote on Sun, 13 September 2009 02:35



DoW policy is to keep M44 as an easy family game but I think there's a place for more difficult rules for ones of us. So, I launch an appeal to have (like for Dungeons & Dragons) advanced rules for M44 based on works already available (if authors are OK) and officialy recognized by DoW that can make the edition of a new rulebook...

Gentlemen (but not only, ladies are welcome), I wanna know your opinion about that...

Greetz from Le Mans Cool


DoW policy is to keep M44 that way indeed. This means that we will not encourage nor officially bless an "Advanced M44" - though you are indeed perfectly welcome to develop and play with House rules to your heart's content, as well as publish them on your User page.

best,
eric
      
rasmussen81
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Re:"Advanced" M44 Sun, 13 September 2009 18:44
You can find a set of House Rules on my User Page that were created by several different players of this great game. Like Eric said, they aren't official (and never will be) but if you want to make M44 more complex, they might be a good place to start.

I can't speak to how well the "Advanced Rules" that are on my User Page work, since I like the Memoir '44 rules the way they are, but you could give them a try. I know that Rooster5 also has some advanced units in his gallery that you could use. I think he did a great job with the new units he thought up, but I don't know if he has play-tested any of them.

Rooster's Advanced Unit Cards

[Updated on: Sun, 13 September 2009 18:45]

      
Hawkmoon von Köln
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Re:"Advanced" M44 Sun, 13 September 2009 19:03
I know Jesse...
I have translated them on my M44 Home Page... Razz Laughing

To Eric, why not blessing and recognizing more officialy fans works on M44 ?
      
rasmussen81
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Re:"Advanced" M44 Sun, 13 September 2009 19:21
Hawkmoon von Köln wrote on Sun, 13 September 2009 10:03

I know Jesse...
I have translated them on my M44 Home Page... Razz Laughing


I remember! Very Happy The link is more for the benefit of other players who may not know about the Variants. Cool
      
Sgt Welsh
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Re:"Advanced" M44 Sun, 13 September 2009 20:07
Hello Jesse,

I see the cards on your user's page. The work is clean and beautifoul and very attractive, thanks to you but some points are very strange. If I compare a Firefly and a Tiger for instance the fire is shorter on a tiger (3 hex against 4). The 88mm of a tiger is more powerfull, isnt'it so it would fire 4 hex too.

The difference between M10 and M18 is difficult to understand too. The M18 is more powerfull, it seems to me.

What about "Panther tank" very powerfull with the 75 long special weapon and armoured.

For ligth tanks (reco), The advantage is more against infantry and others troops than armoured stronger except perhaps in very close combat. In case of Flag, it could retreat faster (3 hex for example). Light tanks can't attack heavy tank even in closed combat!! No?

What do you think ?

Sincerly Cool.
      
rasmussen81
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Re:"Advanced" M44 Sun, 13 September 2009 20:28
Bar-91 wrote on Sun, 13 September 2009 11:07

Hello Jesse,

I see the cards on your user's page. The work is clean and beautifoul and very attractive, thanks to you but some points are very strange.

What do you think ?


I think those are all very valid points and I would completely agree; some of those cards should maybe be revised. I can't claim any credit for those cards, as they are not mine (and aren't on my User Page). Razz

You should direct your advice to Rooster! Cool
      
Nightrain
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Re:"Advanced" M44 Mon, 14 September 2009 14:52
IMHO, a complex set of rules doesn't always make a game really "advance", remember Chess, how simple is the rule of that game ? but is it easy to master ? don't think so

i guess it goes the same to M44, as with its own simplicity, still there are thousands of tactic and strategies are ready to be uncovered within a single map and a handful of cards, and that's the beauty of it Smile
      
Hawkmoon von Köln
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Re:"Advanced" M44 Mon, 14 September 2009 14:59
IHMO ?
I'm just wanting to have heavier rules for more realistic game and to levels of playing.
And I think that it would be great that DoW recognizes more officialy home rules that work...
Masterising chess is very difficult.
To myself, you can't put M44 at the same level because of cards & dices...
Greetz from Le Mans
PS : in France, Advanced Chess exist, it is called "Tempête sur l'échiquier" that could be translated into : "Storm on the chessboard". It's played with cards which change each turn the normal chess rules

[Updated on: Mon, 14 September 2009 15:02]

      
OldBloodandGuts
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Re:"Advanced" M44 Mon, 14 September 2009 15:41
I do have an interest in having an option to make the game more complex, but I think rather than an advanced ruleset, this should be handled on a scenario-by-scenario basis.

Doesn't each scenario have a space for "special rules?" I think this is where you'll sneak in some of those "flavor" rules that can really give a more advanced or realistic feel to some of the battles, without messing with the basic game mechanics.
      
Sgt Storm
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Re:"Advanced" M44 Mon, 14 September 2009 17:07
Why don't you tell us what you have in mind.

I might be interested in more complex rules, but depends on what they are. I like the idea of reinforcements and limiting luck with certain card draws.

I agree that one way to add complexity is to add special rules on a scenario-by-scenario basis. I have a couple of Operation Jubilee (Dieppe) scenarios where I have done that, Green Beach (idealized version) and Orange Beach. I thought the rules added a lot to the realism of the scenarios, but I tailored the rules for each scenario.

I created these scenarios mostly for fun (I at one point had some free time) and because I don't seem many scenarios that make good use of the Terrain Pack features/rules. I prefer scenarios that are complex (e.g., with good special rules that make use of the various features we have available in all the expansions) but I like the basic simplicity of the game).
      
Hawkmoon von Köln
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Re:"Advanced" M44 Mon, 14 September 2009 17:59
I'm like you guys...
What I mean is that an official recognization by DoW for this kind of scenarios would be great (in the front scenarios, it is written that these scenarios are not officially approved by R. Borg or DoW).
This recognization would help people to play scenarios with special rules instead of only official scenarios.
So, a rulebook with these special rules could be interesting and make advertisement on Front scenarios using them.
Or adding more explanation cards (for the missions).
I like the way M44 is easy and quick to play but sometimes I wanna play heavier games with M44 basic rules (not only Overlord or Breakthrough) but not only...
Thanks for the debate participation and one more time sorry for my poor english.
      
PanzerRunes
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Re:"Advanced" M44 Mon, 14 September 2009 18:33
While I understand what you want and agree with it in part Eric provided DoW's stance on the issue. We will not see fan based complete alternative rules set printed by DoW.


eric wrote on Sun, 13 September 2009 09:36



DoW policy is to keep M44 that way indeed. This means that we will not encourage nor officially bless an "Advanced M44" - though you are indeed perfectly welcome to develop and play with House rules to your heart's content, as well as publish them on your User page.

best,
eric





I suggested something similar in the past and got much the same replies from the M'44 community... Use house rules.

I don't think this means DoW will not consider using an occasional fan based rule for some new effect or scenario. I would be willing to bet the fan base has had some influence in the Campaign book and other scenarios.

Have you looked at the many rules varients posted on BGG, some of which are interesting and fun to use?

      
Hawkmoon von Köln
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Re:"Advanced" M44 Mon, 14 September 2009 18:42
Thx PanzerRunes !
In fact, I only have played with "my" homerules and translated to french Rasmussen81's ones.
I had made alternative rules for mines (especially when retreating in an hidden hex with minefields).
Rules about desert logistic (my favourite period is Desert war between 1940 and 1943 and especially May/June of 1942).
Replacements and reinforcements.
Play Recon1 as BEL
But I don't have translated them to english (which is the language of the most important M44 players community).
Greetz from Le Mans Cool

PS : Something else : We're expecting you at the "Open de France 2010" on 3 and 4 of April in Tours ; this event is organized by the FFM44 (French speaking Federation of Memoir'44)

[Updated on: Mon, 14 September 2009 18:45]

      
PanzerRunes
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Re:"Advanced" M44 Thu, 17 September 2009 17:38
Hawkmoon von Köln wrote on Mon, 14 September 2009 09:42




PS : Something else : We're expecting you at the "Open de France 2010" on 3 and 4 of April in Tours ; this event is organized by the FFM44 (French speaking Federation of Memoir'44)





Sounds like a great time.

Is the "Open de France 2010" organization going to sponsor airfare and hotel for US attendees? Very Happy Shocked Rolling Eyes

The US dollar is not doing so well in international markets... Sad
      
Hawkmoon von Köln
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Re:"Advanced" M44 Fri, 18 September 2009 14:48
I don't think so...
But if you organize holidays in France during this period (like Longbearder for the Open of 2009), you can visit Normandy and I can receive some peoples (not a lot !) at home. I live in Le Mans which is about 90 km far away from Tours.
Tours and Le Mans are 200 km far away from the West of Paris.
Afterall, you're welcome in France !
I'm gonna create an other post for the Open of 2010.
Greetz from Le Mans
      
ad79
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Re:"Advanced" M44 Sat, 19 September 2009 10:03
Hi Hawkmoon

If you would like a way to show some "Semi-Official" status for "Advanced 44" you could do like they do with Heroscape at Heroscapers.com with the "Battlefields of Valhalla".

On the forum they have a bunch of guys that have formed a jury and they approve good tournament worthy maps as "BOW" maps.
These maps need to be balanced and be playable for both melee and ranged units.

The jury playtest the maps and approve or dissapprove the battlefields.
Link to the thread where they discuss maps submitted for approval: http://www.heroscapers.com/community/showthread.php?t=3128

If a battlefield gets approved it goes into a thread that shows all approved maps.
Link to thread showing approved maps: http://heroscapers.com/community/showthread.php?t=5725


I think something similar could be done with Advanced Memoir scenarios, if you would like to do it.

If a bunch of guys got together and tested sceanrios and one person made a thread named "Advanced 44 sceanrios" and in the first post included links to the approved sceanrios.

Just an idea.
      
OldBloodandGuts
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Re:"Advanced" M44 Tue, 22 September 2009 21:15
ad79 wrote on Sat, 19 September 2009 04:03

Hi Hawkmoon

If you would like a way to show some "Semi-Official" status for "Advanced 44" you could do like they do with Heroscape at Heroscapers.com with the "Battlefields of Valhalla".

On the forum they have a bunch of guys that have formed a jury and they approve good tournament worthy maps as "BOW" maps.
These maps need to be balanced and be playable for both melee and ranged units.

The jury playtest the maps and approve or dissapprove the battlefields.
Link to the thread where they discuss maps submitted for approval: http://www.heroscapers.com/community/showthread.php?t=3128

If a battlefield gets approved it goes into a thread that shows all approved maps.
Link to thread showing approved maps: http://heroscapers.com/community/showthread.php?t=5725


I think something similar could be done with Advanced Memoir scenarios, if you would like to do it.

If a bunch of guys got together and tested sceanrios and one person made a thread named "Advanced 44 sceanrios" and in the first post included links to the approved sceanrios.

Just an idea.


I used to play another wargame, Axis & Allies Miniatures, that had a similar committee -- I think it was called the Historic House Rules Committee, or HHR. They tried to modify the game, as you would expect from the name, with an eye towards better historical authenticity. For a time they produced some very good work, but as time went on, the game design went from borderline-historic to increasingly "gamey," and they were swimming against the tide, so to speak.

Still, it was cool for awhile. Smile
      
rasmussen81
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Re:"Advanced" M44 Tue, 22 September 2009 21:26
The HHR Committee sounds like a lot of work, and sounds like it would require a lot of play testing to make sure the rules work...are you offering to bankroll the committee?! Very Happy
      
OldBloodandGuts
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Re:"Advanced" M44 Thu, 24 September 2009 20:28
rasmussen81 wrote on Tue, 22 September 2009 15:26

The HHR Committee sounds like a lot of work, and sounds like it would require a lot of play testing to make sure the rules work...are you offering to bankroll the committee?! Very Happy

\

Heck no, I'm not that big a masochist!

Besides, I think most HHR committees for this game would have resigned with the release of the air pack...
      
50th
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Re:"Advanced" M44 Sat, 26 September 2009 04:25
I have included some "house rules" on my armor, artillery, and infantry charts. It is interesting how many "house rules" are now official rules in one way or another. For example, house rules on infantry AT weapons, mortar teams, Tiger tanks, and the like, are now "official" rules. Rasmussen has a good chart on house rules, but I also now have my own rules about the new Tiger tank mini's.

Very Happy
      
Hawkmoon von Köln
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Re:"Advanced" M44 Sun, 27 September 2009 17:16
I went to a tourney of M44 this WE near Paris.
We were talking with other players about the official rules and some "incoherences".
One example (given by Praxeo) :
When retreating an unit in a frozen river hex, you have to roll 2 dices for eventual damages.
Not in a non-discovered minefield...
Why ?
What is the difference between these two kinds of situations ?
Like we say in France : 2 pounds, 2 measures.
If someone can answer me, it would be great...
Greetz from Le Mans Cool

[Updated on: Sun, 27 September 2009 17:18]

      
sam1812
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Re:"Advanced" M44 Sun, 27 September 2009 17:44
Hi, Cisco --

I don't know if there's a battlefield reason for the inconsistency between mines and frozen rivers, but there's a big difference from the perspective of playability.

A frozen river rolls 2d, and scores a hit 1/6 of the time with each die -- an average of 1/3 hit.

A mine can roll as many as 4 dice, and can score a hit up to 1/2 of the time on each die -- an average of 2 hits against infantry for a 4d mine.

I'll bet that, when they playtested it, that just made mines too devastating.
      
Hawkmoon von Köln
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Re:"Advanced" M44 Sun, 27 September 2009 17:55
Hi Sam,
I understand it so we have proposed with BAR-91 an alternative way of playing retreat through non-revealed minefield :
roll 2 dices and apply results without revealing the token OR consider it as non-practicable terrain and take additional hit(s) on the unit.
Greetz Cool
      
    
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