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OLE Masimo
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NC BOARD three more votes Wed, 30 September 2009 18:06
Hi all,

more points to decide on:

1. Anti-Cheat Trust (shared accounts)

recent wording of the rules:
16. Anti-Cheating Trust:
- Each player plays with his/her personal, unshared account.
- Each player plays with his/her strongest account (overall).
- Each player plays alone. Any contact with others (other than one's opponent) during the game that has to do with that current game is forbidden.


rule change has been requested - please read details in the rulethread. Options I could think of:

1.
A - totally discard "- Each player plays with his/her personal, unshared account."
B - change to "- Each player plays with an account that is primarily used by him or her."
C - change to "- Each player plays with his/her personal account. It is forbidden to have anyone else play NC games with that account. The players rating should reflect his playing strength."
D - leave the wording as is
E - none of the above - search for still another wording

2. OBSERVABLE

recent wording of the rules:
17. Nature of the games
.....
D. Observable.



with the new functions this should be ruled newly. Options:

2.
A - Hide cards or "buddies only" option is not allowed
B - Player who opens game chooses if he wants to select option "Hide cards" - "buddies only" is not allowed
C - Highest rated player chooses if option "Hide cards" is used for the match - "buddies only" is not allowed
D - none of the above - more discussion needed

(if we choose 2A i will include: accidentally starting a game which is NOT observable does not have to be replayed. The opening player shall be reminded after that game about the rules. Only if he continues deliberately to start closed the match shall be given as a win to the opposing team. - please vote 2 NO if you cannot agree with that else I`d like to bring it in the short way)

3. starting rule

recent reading of the rules:
13.8. starter rule
The first game is opened with random start. For subsequent games the starter alternates. If a game is a tie, the starter still alternates (even though the tie doesn't count for the match in terms of games won). When (and if) the score of 2:2 is reached (for BO5, at 3:3 for BO7) the next game is opened with starter random. Should this game be a tie (and the score therefore remain 2:2 / 3:3) the starter alternates again until the end of the match.


options to vote for:

3.
A - leave the starting rules
B - change the sentence "Should this game be a tie ... " to: " Should a game during the match be a tie the starter alternates until the end of the match"
C - "Odd games are random starting, even games are started by the player that did not start the previous game. If a game is a tie, although it doesn't count for the match in terms of games won, it counts as a game played."
D - first game opened with random start, then alternating starts, ties are counted as wins (erps` suggestion)
E - none of the above


last decision on when to include these rule changes:

4.
A - continue KO with the changed ruling
B - change the ruling for NC 2010, continue this year with the given rules.


sorry for taking that long - this was not easy and quite time consuming for me ...

Please vote until Tuesday, October 6th




[Updated on: Thu, 01 October 2009 08:28]

      
thekid
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Re:NC BOARD three more votes Wed, 30 September 2009 18:21
1 D
2 C
3 C
4 A
      
SMP-bassie
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Re:NC BOARD three more votes Wed, 30 September 2009 22:16
1 D
2 A (Buddies only is IMO against NC principles - I am against hide cards too but that can be discussed)
3 C
4 A

Thanks Mas for the time invested, I appreciate it!
      
AAA_dea1
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Re:NC BOARD three more votes Thu, 01 October 2009 00:59
1D - maybe add 'TD may grant exceptions' to cover the psteinx case
2A - if the majority doesn't like A: B makes no sense, C does. Maybe split C to buddies only NOK, hide cards OK.
3A - if the majority doesn't like A: I can live with B and C, but never ever with D
4A
      
SKMorefield
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Re:NC BOARD three more votes Thu, 01 October 2009 03:44
OLE Masimo wrote on Wed, 30 September 2009 12:06

Hi
2.
A - Hide cards or "buddies only" option is not allowed
B - Player who opens game chooses if he wants to select option "Hide cards/buddies only"
C - Highest rated player chooses if option "Hide cards/buddies only" is used for the match
D - none of the above - more discussion needed




When I first saw this I wasn't going to interject because I'm not a board member, but I think the wording of this needs to be changed because option C has both a really good and a really bad feature, and option A might get chosen by mistake because of this.

Good feature = hide cards - There are lots of good things about this feature! Why should observers see only the higher ranked person's cards? If you were watching a game in person, you wouldn't be grabbing the player's cards to see what colors they had, would you? You would see the board and that's it. It is more fun to watch, and it completely takes away the opportunity to cheat (which is particularly appealing to me as TD!). To me, this is an awesome feature, and even though I don't have a vote I feel strongly that we should incorporate this (of course I will go with what is decided!).

Bad feature (for NC) = buddies only - Bassie is right. This is totally against the spirit of NC.

So option C should completely take away the 'buddies only' option. This should not even be an option to be voted on.

Sorry, just had to interject... I feel this is a very important issue!!


Best Regards,
Scott

[Updated on: Thu, 01 October 2009 03:55]

      
ATN Drake
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Re:NC BOARD three more votes Thu, 01 October 2009 05:17
1: C (or D if "maybe add 'TD may grant exceptions' to cover the psteinx case")

2: A (or C if SKMs rewording is accounted for)

3: C

4: A
      
OLE Masimo
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Re:NC BOARD three more votes Thu, 01 October 2009 08:26
I included the "buddies only" function cause I thought it should be at least mentioned so that noone can claim he did not know it was not allowed - or something like that. - I will change it in my wording to:

B - Player who opens game chooses if he wants to select option "Hide cards"- "buddies only" is not allowed
C - Highest rated player chooses if option "Hide cards" is used for the match -"buddies only" is not allowed


I hope no rejects to that? - if necessary those who already voted - if you feel you need to please change your vote.

      
-EPO- Moulin à Vent
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Re:NC BOARD three more votes Thu, 01 October 2009 11:53
1 -> D
2 -> A
3 -> A
4 -> B
      
kolmo
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Re:NC BOARD three more votes Thu, 01 October 2009 16:35
Anyone can add anyone as a buddy. It's the safest way to track annoying accounts, btw. But I agree it's cumbersome.
      
TIC wasdenn
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Re:NC BOARD three more votes Thu, 01 October 2009 23:58
1 D (maybe add 'TD may grant exceptions')
2 A (else only C is acceptable)
3 A
4 A (IF there are changes, start with them in KO)
      
OLE Masimo
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Re:NC BOARD three more votes Fri, 02 October 2009 08:34
1. C
2. C
3. C
4. A

(vote 2 - after a sincere discussion we decided to vote for higher ranked player may choose "hidden cards" - even though we are the oppinion that the NC is THE "open games" event and hope that the "hidden cards" option is rarely used - in case the bord decides for C)
      
CIA Truckerteller
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Re:NC BOARD three more votes Fri, 02 October 2009 10:46
1C
2A
3C
4A
      
Robin Hood
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Re:NC BOARD three more votes Fri, 02 October 2009 11:14
1) C
2) B
3) A
4) A
Robin
      
SOJA Val
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Re:NC BOARD three more votes Fri, 02 October 2009 11:41
For Team Finland

1) C
2) C
3) A
4) A

Val
      
sauvignon57
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Re:NC BOARD three more votes Fri, 02 October 2009 17:11
For Transalpin

1.) C
2.) C
3.) C
4.) A
      
JohnM
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Re:NC BOARD three more votes Sun, 04 October 2009 17:34
RCMP (Team Canada Mexico) says:

1 D
2 A
3 E - it does not make sense that we even out pairings in match, but not for the teams. It would be simpler if the TD decided which team has 3 starts.
4 A
      
CAT-suburu
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Re:NC BOARD three more votes Sun, 04 October 2009 17:44
1-D
2-A
3-C
4-A
      
Sysyphus - Pommard
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Re:NC BOARD three more votes Sun, 04 October 2009 22:27
1 D
2 A
3 A
4 A
      
AGT-DN
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Re:NC BOARD three more votes Sun, 04 October 2009 22:57
1C
2A
(+ games accidentally started non-observable do not have to be replayed, players should be informed about the non-observable case)

3A
4B
      
toutoune - Morgon
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Re:NC BOARD three more votes Mon, 05 October 2009 00:00
-EPO- Moulin à Vent écrit le Thu, 01 October 2009 11:53

1 -> D
2 -> A
3 -> A
4 -> B


hmm. Rolling Eyes so far, I still represent red for the board. Very Happy

And red Vote isn't EPO vote:

1-C
2-D
3-A
4-A

[Updated on: Mon, 05 October 2009 00:03]

      
chrismmm_1987
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Re:NC BOARD three more votes Mon, 05 October 2009 00:10
Hey,

the UEG-vote:

1)c
2)c
3)b
4)b

Chris
      
SKMorefield
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Re:NC BOARD three more votes Mon, 05 October 2009 00:45
It looks like section 2 is going in the direction of A. I simply cannot understand why so many captains would vote against a certain way to do away with cheating. Even though I think that this is a very bad decision, I will abide by it.

However, I would like the option as TD to allow the 'hide cards' option on certain clashes if asked by captains who suspect cheating on the other side. I think this would be an acceptable compromise, as it would only affect a small percentage of matches.

What do you think?


Scott
      
Qorlas
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Re:NC BOARD three more votes Mon, 05 October 2009 00:45
ITA:

1B
2C
3C
4A

[Updated on: Mon, 05 October 2009 00:47]

      
OLE Masimo
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Re:NC BOARD three more votes Mon, 05 October 2009 08:37
SKMorefield schrieb am Mon, 05 October 2009 00:45

However, I would like the option as TD to allow the 'hide cards' option on certain clashes if asked by captains who suspect cheating on the other side. I think this would be an acceptable compromise, as it would only affect a small percentage of matches.


I like that - but won`t include it without general agreement - I would suggest we wait for the last teams to vote (and the final result) then I`ll ask for the teams opinion on that.

      
AAA_dea1
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Re:NC BOARD three more votes Mon, 05 October 2009 08:52
SKMorefield schrieb am Mon, 05 October 2009 00:45


However, I would like the option as TD to allow the 'hide cards' option on certain clashes if asked by captains who suspect cheating on the other side.


Sure - the TD shall be able to do that (I think that was already part of some earlier suggestions)

That's just all the difference.
The "normal way" is trusting your opponent and therefore playing open.
If you suspect something your thoughts have to have the quality to explain them to the TD - which needs more foundation than just "throwing ideas around".
      
*zufuR
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Re:NC BOARD three more votes Mon, 05 October 2009 09:23
TRB vote

1. D
2. A
3. A (we can live with C also)
4. A

      
SYN Olle Boll
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Re:NC BOARD three more votes Mon, 05 October 2009 22:49
1C
2C
3C
4A
      
OLE Masimo
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Re:NC BOARD three more votes Wed, 07 October 2009 11:10
19 teams voted - here are the results:

1. Anti Cheat rule:

A - 0 votes
B - 1 vote
C - 10 votes
D - 8 votes

so I will add the following sentence to rule 16:
- Each player plays with his/her personal account. It is forbidden to have anyone else play NC games with that account. The players rating should reflect his playing strength.

2. Observable:

A - 10 votes
B - 1 vote
C - 7 votes
D - 1 vote

I will add:

Hide cards or "buddies only" option is not allowed

and I will include Scott`s suggestion:
TD can allow the use of the 'hide cards' option on certain clashes if asked by captains who suspect cheating on the other side + accidentally starting a game which is NOT observable does not have to be replayed. The opening player shall be reminded after that game about the rules. Only if he continues deliberately to start closed the match shall be given as a win to the opposing team.

3. starter rule

A - 8 votes
B - 1 vote
C - 9 votes
D - 0 votes
E - 1 vote

VERY CLOSE HERE! - I take it that both starter rules are fine, as they are really close anyway, and way better than everything we had so far. Vote is for odd game starting though, I will add:
Odd games are random starting, even games are started by the player that did not start the previous game. If a game is a tie, although it doesn't count for the match in terms of games won, it counts as a game played.

4. when to apply these rule changes:

A - 17 votes
B - 2 votes

so please do use the changed ruling (especially the starter rule) from KO phase on - I will edit the rule section right now.


      
AAA_dea1
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Re:NC BOARD three more votes Wed, 07 October 2009 18:56
OLE Masimo schrieb am Wed, 07 October 2009 11:10


1. Anti Cheat rule:
...
The players rating should reflect his playing strength.



WHAT???????????????????

We never voted for that, did we?

If that's in the rules, am I not allowed to play NC when my rating is lower than what people think it should be?

Who will determine, what the playing strength of somebody is supposed to be?

Is it forbidden to play multis and other maps, thereby risking too many points during NC?

Brrrrrrrrr
      
OLE Masimo
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Re:NC BOARD three more votes Wed, 07 October 2009 21:04
loooooooooool - yes we did Dea .... in German we say: "Wer lesen kann ist klar im Vorteil" Twisted Evil Twisted Evil Twisted Evil

hey AT-captainesse - this is the "Angel-clause" :
AT_Angel6 schrieb am Tue, 22 September 2009 17:14

The NC rules say that we have to play rated, but I would not at all like to play against Whitetrain at 1570! Twisted Evil



Actually Angel worded it like that: "So, the rules should state, that the ranking of a NC player MUST NOT be distorted by another person." - but what is distorted, to what degree and so on?

So now it says - ... should reflect ..... leaving you enough room to bounce up and down as we all do Shocked - but if you end up at 1333 you would violate the rules indeed Very Happy (btw - Angel wouldn`t play you then he stated Very Happy )

I think any resonable person here (and especially out TD) knows how to handle this - basically I think we need not care about the renown players anyway (neither you nor psteinx) - but the new players that join in -
      
AAA_dea1
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Re:NC BOARD three more votes Thu, 08 October 2009 00:03
@ "wer lesen kann": Just checked it - unfortunately you are right and I missed that one. Mad Embarassed Mad
So I don't regret my comments but I do regret that I didn't post them earlier.
Well, majority vote has to be accepted.

@ Angel: I know that this is the "Angel clause" - I'm not obliged to share his opinion in all cases, am I?
(BTW he wrote "must not be distorted by ANOTHER person" - adding a slight hint what he thinks about distorting it by the same person, which may be his captain Laughing )
No news that he wouldn't play me at 13xx - he doesn't play me when I'm below 1700 (unless he has to, in tournaments) - which explains why you don't see us very often Embarassed

@ "any reasonable person" ... ah yes, sure Rolling Eyes
(no offense meant towards our TD, whom I consider a very reasonable person)
      
ACP Miguel
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Re:NC BOARD three more votes Thu, 08 October 2009 00:23
i play with dea when she's lower than 1700 otherwise almost never could Wink eheh
      
AAA_Angel6
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Re:NC BOARD three more votes Mon, 12 October 2009 11:00
What I like least here are the opinion makers that try to influence others in an incorrect way Twisted Evil

Case A) SKM's post about hidden cards:
In my opinion, hidden cards would be the death of NC. Watching those games is completely uninteresting for me. Only by seeing everything of one player I can think with him, feel with him and can judge whether he plays well or not. This is what NC is all about (for me).
SKM as TD has to enforce the NC rules. But in no case (no matter if in politics or NC) anybody should make AND enforce rules or laws, as this would give too much control. So I perceive SKM's post as inappropriate.

Case B) Masimo's 1C "The players rating should reflect his playing strength"
This option was not suggestet by anyone, it is clearly an invention of Masimo. I don't like Masimo's personal talk about me, this discussion should be more objective IMHO. It is very clear that my suggestion has unequal wording AND meaning (!) to that what Masimo made from it.
Also the development of the poll is interesting: 1D-1D-1D-1C(D)-1D-1D-1C(Masimo)-1C-1C-1C-1C...
Why did the "public opinion" completely changed from Oct 1st to Oct 2nd?
Masimo does more for our community than most, and of course much more than I do. But I don't think that this gives him more rights...

Sorry if my post sounds unfriendly, but honestly I am not angry and don't want to upset anybody Smile
      
*zufuR
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Re:NC BOARD three more votes Mon, 12 October 2009 11:31
Hi Angel,

I agree that hide cards should not be an option and we should not use it for NC games.

However I don't agree, when you say SKMs message was inappropriate. Scott has to enforce the rules and to do this he asked for an option that he would like to have to do his job better. He did not demand anything nor did he write this to influence the votes of the teams. Everybody is allowed to give his opinion here in the forums and I don't see why Scott should keep his opinion for himself just because he is the TD.

I believe that all captains/teams/board reps are independent enough to make their own decisions.
Of course they might be influenced by other postings in the forum, but that's the way an election campaign works.

The same goes for Masimo.
They both show sufficient neutrality (imho).

R.

[Updated on: Mon, 12 October 2009 11:34]

      
OLE Masimo
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Re:NC BOARD three more votes Mon, 12 October 2009 18:38
AT_Angel6 schrieb am Mon, 12 October 2009 11:00

This option was not suggestet by anyone, it is clearly an invention of Masimo.


yes indeed I tried to word you initial request understandable (at least for me - as noone else responded to your post) - and if you read my above post I stated why. My initial board suggestion was without that sentence. Only after your post
AT_Angel6 schrieb am Tue, 22 September 2009 17:14


But account sharing is much worse in my opionion. If e.g. 1750 Whitetrain would share his account with his 1300 son 60:40, his ranking would drop to 1570. Now, if I would play against him, I would get underranked no matter who wins, and if I play his sun, I would get overranked. And, to make it worse, maybe I would never know against who I play and so play worse myself.

The NC rules say that we have to play rated, but I would not at all like to play against Whitetrain at 1570! Twisted Evil

I tried to do something with what I thought was your concern - that every NC player should have a somehow adequate ranking. I still think "distorted" is no good - I feel that there is no difference to "unshared account". I tried to include ALL the input in the thread for the board - but meanwhile I regret that I took your request into consideration.

AT_Angel6 schrieb am Mon, 12 October 2009 11:00

Also the development of the poll is interesting: 1D-1D-1D-1C(D)-1D-1D-1C(Masimo)-1C-1C-1C-1C...
Why did the "public opinion" completely changed from Oct 1st to Oct 2nd?
Masimo does more for our community than most, and of course much more than I do. But I don't think that this gives him more rights...


I never asked for any rights - and last year I did not vote on the board exactly because I was afraid I`d get accused of influencing. My teammate asked me to do it this year. What a stupid thought that the other teams follow OLE (btw. especially this time my personall oppinion was NOT team oppinion in all points). But as consequence if there are further board decisions needed I will post the OLE vote as the last one before the deadline Rolling Eyes

I won`t state what I like least here ...
      
SKMorefield
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Re:NC BOARD three more votes Mon, 12 October 2009 22:45
AT_Angel6 wrote on Mon, 12 October 2009 05:00

What I like least here are the opinion makers that try to influence others in an incorrect way Twisted Evil

Case A) SKM's post about hidden cards:
In my opinion, hidden cards would be the death of NC. Watching those games is completely uninteresting for me. Only by seeing everything of one player I can think with him, feel with him and can judge whether he plays well or not. This is what NC is all about (for me).
SKM as TD has to enforce the NC rules. But in no case (no matter if in politics or NC) anybody should make AND enforce rules or laws, as this would give too much control. So I perceive SKM's post as inappropriate.



Hi Angel,

I understand where you are coming from. I can see how it would be more interesting to see it all (although if you watch a live tournament you would never be able to go through a player's cards!).

My only real concern here, as I mentioned before, is the possibility of cheating. As TD I will take any chance I can to do away with it, and I felt that the hide cards option was a really nice feature because one can watch but not cheat. I think that most NC and other tournament participants are honest and would never do this, but how easy would it be for one bad apple to spoil the whole bunch? Show a cheater your tickets and color cards, and you will lose at least 90% of the time, period. Do we really know EVERYONE is honest?

But I do respect the board's decision, and will abide by it. I will only impose the hide card option in limited, specific cases.

I do think it was not only my right, but my duty as TD to express my opinion here. I do not have a vote but I think my perspective as TD is something that can be useful in a vote. In real life 'opinion makers' (as you say) testify before Congress all the time, but it is Congress's job to weigh the evidence and vote on a conclusion. Same with the board. This time the board disagreed with me, and that is OK!


Regards,
Scott

      
AAA_dea1
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Re:NC BOARD three more votes Mon, 12 October 2009 23:24
SKMorefield schrieb am Mon, 12 October 2009 22:45


although if you watch a live tournament you would never be able to go through a player's cards


We played some tournament games live and all kibitzers saw all our cards (it's easier live, you see that they don't tell the opponent, and if they did you'd simply throw them out).

Nothing wrong with your post, however (in my eyes) - everyone can and shall express his opinion. Of course the TD can be an opinion leader, but so can (and are) others.
      
OLE Masimo
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Re:NC BOARD three more votes Tue, 13 October 2009 09:30
SKMorefield schrieb am Mon, 12 October 2009 22:45

I do think it was not only my right, but my duty as TD to express my opinion here.


YES

for my part I`d really like to thank you for taking such an active role as TD (and not only doing the lineups)! I think having such a strong and encouraged TD is the best that could happen for all us players in NC!

      
*zufuR
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Re:NC BOARD three more votes Tue, 13 October 2009 09:51
I fully agree with Masimo!
Scott is doing a great job.
We are very lucky to have him as TD for this year's tournament.
Couldn't think of a better one...


      
SKMorefield
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Re:NC BOARD three more votes Tue, 13 October 2009 17:19
Thanks guys for the kind words, and you are definitely welcome.

@Dea - You are right. I guess you could look behind someone and see most cards, but like you say there is no cheating possible because you would be seen if you tried to go across the board and relate what you know. Very Happy This is not the case online. I wish I could say with certainty that it would never go on, but I cannot.

Regards,
Scott
      
    
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