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Winter Storm
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Question to Dow: Revised behind enemy lines Tue, 27 October 2009 14:39
Dear Dow,

please, can you explain what is the revised behind enemy lines card in battlemap 3?
      
stevens
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Re:Question to Dow: Revised behind enemy lines Tue, 27 October 2009 18:12
Dear Winterstorm:
The original printed card for both the base game of Memoir 44 and the additional card deck you could purchase for $5.00 was in error and stated that Terrain Restrictions applied during the movement phase of the card. This was false.

Unfortunately these cards continued to be printed. I now actually have 5 copies of the errantly printed card and not 1 correct one. However, in an effort to do right, DOW is now giving 1 corrected (revised) card as it currently appears on the Cards Compendium page to those who purchase the next expansion.

http://www.daysofwonder.com/memoir44/en/content/cards_compen dium/?id=command_16

If you do not have an errant card in your collection, then consider yourself blessed.

Oh, If you want to trade me a good one for a bad one, please PM me .. Laughing

[Updated on: Tue, 27 October 2009 18:15]

      
Winter Storm
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Re:Question to Dow: Revised behind enemy lines Tue, 27 October 2009 18:28
Hi Steve

I've only one deck (used a lot) with the correct one!

I didn't want to purchase a deck with the wrong BEL

Eventually this is the right time to order a replacement deck (togheter with BM 3!)

[Updated on: Tue, 27 October 2009 18:28]

      
PanzerRunes
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Re:Question to Dow: Revised behind enemy lines Tue, 27 October 2009 18:28
stevens wrote on Tue, 27 October 2009 10:12


...DOW is now giving 1 corrected (revised) card as it currently appears on the Cards Compendium page to those who purchase the next expansion.



I missed this one.

So they are including the BEL card with the Sword of Stalingrad?
      
Krieghund
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Re:Question to Dow: Revised behind enemy lines Tue, 27 October 2009 19:02
It looks to me like they still don't have it quite right. I think it should say, "Terrain movement restrictions are ignored, except for impassable terrain."
      
OldBloodandGuts
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Re:Question to Dow: Revised behind enemy lines Tue, 27 October 2009 19:18
Would this be a bad time to mention that I think the BEL card is silly, a-historic, and gamy? Smile

      
stevens
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Re:Question to Dow: Revised behind enemy lines Tue, 27 October 2009 21:41
Read all about it:

http://www.daysofwonder.com/memoir44/en/content/op3/

Quote:

This Battle Map set also includes 2 Standard scenarios playable on a regular Memoir '44 board - Mamayev Kurgan and Pavlov, Hero of the Soviet Union; and Summary cards for the previously published Battle Maps and Mediterranean Theater. Also includes a revised Behind Enemy Lines Command card.
      
Winter Storm
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Re:Question to Dow: Revised behind enemy lines Tue, 27 October 2009 22:03
TO Krieghound - I had some issue in the past with the way the rules was explained - but for me it was clear that impassable terrain was stil impassable.

To Old Blood and guts - I "love" general Patton but, sorry, I "love" also the behind enemy lines card without movement restriction. It really spices the game and it is one of the cards that make memoir such a great game.

[Updated on: Tue, 27 October 2009 22:03]

      
yangtze
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BEL of St. Richard's :) Tue, 27 October 2009 22:34
"Never, in the field of human gaming, has so much been said about so little."

If I had time I'd compile a list of all of the threads containing all of the hours of discussion and debate we've enjoyed regarding this card. I must say, I look back upon it all with great fondness. I do hope this so called 'correct' card doesn't spoil our fun... Smile
      
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Re:BEL of St. Richard's :) Tue, 27 October 2009 22:45
yangtze wrote on Tue, 27 October 2009 14:34

"Never, in the field of human gaming, has so much been said about so little."

If I had time I'd compile a list of all of the threads containing all of the hours of discussion and debate we've enjoyed regarding this card. I must say, I look back upon it all with great fondness. I do hope this so called 'correct' card doesn't spoil our fun... Smile


In light of that, maybe I should erase the whole section about the BEL card from the FAQ document! Very Happy Laughing
      
yangtze
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Re:BEL of St. Richard's :) Tue, 27 October 2009 22:49
Yes! Erase, and let's start again from the beginning!! Very Happy
      
rasmussen81
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Re:BEL of St. Richard's :) Tue, 27 October 2009 22:51
yangtze wrote on Tue, 27 October 2009 14:49

Yes! Erase, and let's start again from the beginning!! Very Happy


Good, and we're not allowed to reference any previous threads...we have to start from scratch! Razz

It should provide another year of fun; in fact, know needs to actually play Memoir '44 with so much fun to be had with the rules and cards.
      
ad79
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Re:BEL of St. Richard's :) Tue, 27 October 2009 23:31
So if I move 3 hexes with BEL, end on a road hex, battle and then move again.
If all my remaining moves is now on a road, am I alloved to move four hexes?

      
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Re:BEL of St. Richard's :) Tue, 27 October 2009 23:36
ad79 wrote on Tue, 27 October 2009 15:31

So if I move 3 hexes with BEL, end on a road hex, battle and then move again.
If all my remaining moves is now on a road, am I alloved to move four hexes?


See what you've done Yangtze! Laughing
      
yangtze
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Re:BEL of St. Richard's :) Tue, 27 October 2009 23:43
There's life in the old card yet! Laughing
      
stevens
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Re:BEL of St. Richard's :) Tue, 27 October 2009 23:43
NO NO NO No no no.......
O Shocked Shocked Shocked

To both Jesse and the moving on a road nonsense.

Move up to 3 battle and then move up to 3 when battle is complete... no more gimmeee's.. Mad Mad

[Updated on: Tue, 27 October 2009 23:47]

      
PanzerRunes
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Re:Question to Dow: Revised behind enemy lines Wed, 28 October 2009 01:40
Seeing as how we are re-writing the card...

BEL should allow/read: move 2 hexes with no terrain restrictions (except impassible), battle (+1 die) must be close assault (ambush can be played), and then the 2nd move for four hexes obeying terrain restrictions. If the defending unit survives they get a one die battle back. Unit activated with BEL becomes camouflaged at the end of its 2nd move.

[Edit]
If on a Tuesday subtract one hex of movement
If on a Friday add a ranged attack after the second move
If on a Sunday the card is ineffective/removed from the deck



I am being a bit facetious with this...

[Updated on: Wed, 28 October 2009 05:33]

      
OldBloodandGuts
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Re:Question to Dow: Revised behind enemy lines Wed, 28 October 2009 03:10
lol...you guys are hopeless...

The BEL card -- in its "revised" or "old" form -- is still too gimmicky for me. I often "forget" to pull it out of the box when I play.
      
50th
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Re:Question to Dow: Revised behind enemy lines Wed, 28 October 2009 03:31
I guess I'm one of the lucky ones who have always had the correct card. This is my favorite card in some scenarios. To those who don't like it, think of it this way. Some times a squad or small unit did go above and beyond and force their way to a point behind enemy lines to attack where they shouldn't have been. I remember how Patton pulled out of a battle and moved through the night and snow without stopping to relieve the army at Bastogne. Think of it as a "special forces" card. Razz

      
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Re:Question to Dow: Revised behind enemy lines Wed, 28 October 2009 05:02
Personally, I like this card. But I could see why someone might not. Games can be lost or won after using a card that lets you move freely around the board and attack with an extra die... Razz
      
ad79
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Re:Question to Dow: Revised behind enemy lines Wed, 28 October 2009 07:46
I once lost "Breakthrough to Gembloux" to the BEL card because I did the cardinal mistake of leaving the exit hex open. And forgetting that the BEL was still in play. No exit hex have ever been left open in my house after that.

But I like the BEL card.

And PanzerRunes, are there no special rules to BEL concerning Leap years?
      
Winter Storm
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Re:Question to Dow: Revised behind enemy lines Wed, 28 October 2009 11:45
rasmussen81 wrote on Wed, 28 October 2009 05:02

Personally, I like this card. But I could see why someone might not. Games can be lost or won after using a card that lets you move freely around the board and attack with an extra die... Razz


I lost/win a lots of games because of Behind enemy lines, Ambush, Barrage, Their finest hour, Air Power, Armour assault, Firefights, Counter-attacks, Infantry assaults, Direct from HQ... I never lost/won because of recon or probes!
      
Sgt Storm
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Re:Question to Dow: Revised behind enemy lines Wed, 28 October 2009 19:25
I prefer to lose when my opponent has superior strategy/tactics not when they by chance get a powerful card at the right time.

That's just me though...If I want chance games I play bingo.
      
OldBloodandGuts
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Re:Question to Dow: Revised behind enemy lines Wed, 28 October 2009 20:00
Sgt Storm wrote on Wed, 28 October 2009 14:25

I prefer to lose when my opponent has superior strategy/tactics not when they by chance get a powerful card at the right time.

That's just me though...If I want chance games I play bingo.


Ditto that. I have less problem with Air Power, Barrage, Armor Assault, etc. because (to varying degrees) they have a higher level of fidelity to situations that might have been faced by commanders. I've yet to come across an account of a company-or-larger size unit conducting a raid with enough firepower to eliminate an enemy unit of equal size AND then getting out UNSCATHED. I just don't buy it.

I know some people enjoy that wild card factor, though, and I can see it being fun for them. I guess I'm just a little bit older school...or just old... Confused
      
Winter Storm
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Re:Question to Dow: Revised behind enemy lines Wed, 28 October 2009 21:08
OldBloodandGuts wrote on Wed, 28 October 2009 20:00

Sgt Storm wrote on Wed, 28 October 2009 14:25

I prefer to lose when my opponent has superior strategy/tactics not when they by chance get a powerful card at the right time.

That's just me though...If I want chance games I play bingo.


Ditto that. I have less problem with Air Power, Barrage, Armor Assault, etc. because (to varying degrees) they have a higher level of fidelity to situations that might have been faced by commanders. I've yet to come across an account of a company-or-larger size unit conducting a raid with enough firepower to eliminate an enemy unit of equal size AND then getting out UNSCATHED. I just don't buy it.

I know some people enjoy that wild card factor, though, and I can see it being fun for them. I guess I'm just a little bit older school...or just old... Confused


Wild factor? There are a lot of powerful cards in the map and but they are powerful only if you use well!

When I play as a german/japanese I always keep my troops separate when possible.

I try to avoid close combat when it's not necessary because I know there is an ambush in the deck (ambush is very strong against BEL).

I don't want guns to stay in the last row of hexes because of barrage and so on.

If there are a lot of powerful cards in the deck that doesn't mean that it's completely chancy.

Most times (more than 100 games) each side as its powerful cards... the player that manage them in a batter way it's more likely to win.

Most times the die are more annoying than cards

The worst situation is when you have a unbalanced scenario, bad cards and bad die...and it happens ....even if BEL remain in the deck...if memoir has some problem that problem is not BEL

I agree however that in pacific theater BEL moving two marine units is INSANE. With my rule marines or not they can only move one unit




[Updated on: Wed, 28 October 2009 21:08]

      
Winter Storm
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Re:Question to Dow: Revised behind enemy lines Wed, 28 October 2009 21:15
And if the problem is the 'realism' of the card.... I have more serious concerns with the air pack (keep them flying, air check, rescue, kamikaze against ground units, germans without ground support planes (!!), air interdiction can stop tanks five turns without killing none, storch that is as poweful as a fighter regarding air check, revised scenarios in which axis have air advantage in D-DAY, planes that move 4 hex while infantry on road move three....)


      
Vulch
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Re:Question to Dow: Revised behind enemy lines Wed, 28 October 2009 22:58
For a new player, can you just clarify what the difference is between the new and old card?

I have no idea which I have?
      
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Re:Question to Dow: Revised behind enemy lines Wed, 28 October 2009 23:35
Vulch wrote on Wed, 28 October 2009 14:58

For a new player, can you just clarify what the difference is between the new and old card?

I have no idea which I have?


Check the FAQ under the Behind Enemy Lines card section. Basically the old card says that Terrain restrictions still apply and the new card says that Terrain restrictions don't apply.
      
Vulch
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Re:Question to Dow: Revised behind enemy lines Wed, 28 October 2009 23:57
rasmussen81 wrote on Wed, 28 October 2009 22:35

Vulch wrote on Wed, 28 October 2009 14:58

For a new player, can you just clarify what the difference is between the new and old card?

I have no idea which I have?


Check the FAQ under the Behind Enemy Lines card section. Basically the old card says that Terrain restrictions still apply and the new card says that Terrain restrictions don't apply.



I am totally confused now, the FAQ says:

Your card should read: Issue an order to 1 INFANTRY unit. Unit may move up to 3 hexes. Unit may battle with 1
additional die, then move again up to 3 hexes. Terrain movement restrictions are ignored. Terrain battle restrictions still
apply


So you are saying the new and correct cards says terrain restrictions dont apply, but the FAQ says the new and correct cards says terrain restrictions do apply.

Which is right??

[Updated on: Wed, 28 October 2009 23:57]

      
rasmussen81
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Re:Question to Dow: Revised behind enemy lines Thu, 29 October 2009 00:11
Vulch wrote on Wed, 28 October 2009 15:57




I am totally confused now, the FAQ says:

Your card should read: Issue an order to 1 INFANTRY unit. Unit may move up to 3 hexes. Unit may battle with 1
additional die, then move again up to 3 hexes. Terrain movement restrictions are ignored. Terrain battle restrictions still
apply


So you are saying the new and correct cards says terrain restrictions dont apply, but the FAQ says the new and correct cards says terrain restrictions do apply.

Which is right??


Sorry, I guess I should have been more clear. The terrain battle restrictions apply with both versions...it's the terrain movement restrictions that don't apply with the new version of the card.

Basically you used to have to move around barbed wire, trees, cities, hedgerows, etc. when moving your Infantry Unit. Now you can move through those terrain pieces without having to stop. Cool
      
Vulch
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Re:Question to Dow: Revised behind enemy lines Thu, 29 October 2009 00:20
Ahhhh thanks.

So if we only have the old cards are we supposed to still do what it says, or amend the card?
      
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Re:Question to Dow: Revised behind enemy lines Thu, 29 October 2009 00:42
Vulch wrote on Wed, 28 October 2009 16:20

Ahhhh thanks.

So if we only have the old cards are we supposed to still do what it says, or amend the card?


That's up to you and the person you're playing with. If you were playing in a tournament though, you would play with the amended card. Cool
      
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Re:Question to Dow: Revised behind enemy lines Thu, 29 October 2009 10:49
OldBloodandGuts wrote on Wed, 28 October 2009 15:00

Sgt Storm wrote on Wed, 28 October 2009 14:25

I prefer to lose when my opponent has superior strategy/tactics not when they by chance get a powerful card at the right time.

That's just me though...If I want chance games I play bingo.


Ditto that. I've yet to come across an account of a company-or-larger size unit conducting a raid with enough firepower to eliminate an enemy unit of equal size AND then getting out UNSCATHED. I just don't buy it.



Well, you should check this out then:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Raid_at_Cabanatuan

The units conducting that raid did not exactly get out unscathed but the favorable loss ration is of the attacking force vs the Japanese defenders is amazing nonetheless. Interestingly enough, one of the subtitles for an account of this story is "Behind Enemy Lines".
      
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Re:Question to Dow: Revised behind enemy lines Thu, 29 October 2009 12:38
PanzerRunes wrote on Wed, 28 October 2009 00:40


[Edit]
If on a Tuesday subtract one hex of movement
If on a Friday add a ranged attack after the second move
If on a Sunday the card is ineffective/removed from the deck




Every 1st and third wednesday of the month, also score hits on stars, unless the taret is a Sniper, who shot at a single infantry figure on the previous turn...
      
OldBloodandGuts
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Re:Question to Dow: Revised behind enemy lines Thu, 29 October 2009 15:18
tank commander wrote on Thu, 29 October 2009 05:49

OldBloodandGuts wrote on Wed, 28 October 2009 15:00

Sgt Storm wrote on Wed, 28 October 2009 14:25

I prefer to lose when my opponent has superior strategy/tactics not when they by chance get a powerful card at the right time.

That's just me though...If I want chance games I play bingo.


Ditto that. I've yet to come across an account of a company-or-larger size unit conducting a raid with enough firepower to eliminate an enemy unit of equal size AND then getting out UNSCATHED. I just don't buy it.



Well, you should check this out then:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Raid_at_Cabanatuan

The units conducting that raid did not exactly get out unscathed but the favorable loss ration is of the attacking force vs the Japanese defenders is amazing nonetheless. Interestingly enough, one of the subtitles for an account of this story is "Behind Enemy Lines".


Yeah, I had thought of the Cabanatuan raid, and also the ones in Guadalcanal and Italy. But (unlike BEL card's usual results) I don't think anything strategically significant was accomplished in Cabanatuan. Good morale boost, and certainly a feat of amazing courage, but not exactly the same as what the BEL card signifies. Sneaking up on a bunch of prison guards (who were generally NOT the creme de la creme of combat troops) and inflicting a lot of casualties is, in my mind, a lot different than sneaking up on a combat-ready unit in the middle of a battle, and getting away without them firing a shot. That's what BEL is to me, and that's why I don't play it. Some people love it, and that's cool -- you gotta do what's fun for you!

Oh, and Winter Storm -- I might be the last one holding off on buying the Air Pack, and for the same reasons. I told you I was old school... Smile

      
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Re:Question to Dow: Revised behind enemy lines Thu, 29 October 2009 17:25
Well, I still believe the powerful cards are balanced. How many times is there the thing that you play barrage and only hit 1 die, or armor assault (Close Assault 4ds in best case -> only 1 hit ) I even got one roll with 3 stars and attacked another unit and threw 2 stars for that one as well. A buddy of mine had an attack and tried to kill my infantry with 4 stars in one roll. So basically the game is quite balanced enough...

Tim
      
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Re:Question to Dow: Revised behind enemy lines Thu, 29 October 2009 21:22
There are many situations that occur in Mem '44 for a number of reasons and a lot of them have nothing to do with strategy. BEL may be one of them. But how about an Allied Air Power to start a game with? I have seen 8 for 8 shooting on my poor Axis units that did not even have a chance to move in the game. After that my chances of winning a scenario like that went way down no matter how well I played. Then there is TFH - I have bombed with the orders for this one then my opponent plucks down CA and gets 4 or 5 orders. How about when you are getting smashed in a flank and you can nothing about it because you keep drawing cards for the other side of the board (where you may have little or no units).

All in all, the better you play, the better you will do. But luck will seep in on many an occasion and defeat the best strategy in the world. The game is what it is -- I accept that. I do not tinker w/ the rules or any components. I may choose not to play w/ some rules (like the Air Rules which I am not entirely sold on), but all in all stick with and by the system.

Of course, anyone is free to do what they will, but that may leave them out of the mainstream.

As to BEL, the worse case I even encountered was I missed killing a 1 fig Inf. With BEL this unit killed off one of my units and then exited the board for a medal. In effect, this was a 3 medal swing as it also removed the enemy 1 fig unit which I would surely have killed later. I went on to lose that game by 1 medal. Did I feel cheated - no. I was not too happy about it,but I would have gladly down the same thing. I have seem BEL bomb out too. Sometimes, the unit is ambushed or it plain whiffs on its rolls. I still like that card.

So we can certainly agree to disagree on this point.

[Updated on: Thu, 29 October 2009 21:25]

      
JJAZ
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Re:Question to Dow: Revised behind enemy lines Fri, 30 October 2009 07:39
Just a remark
If you read about some of the battles in the war , it seems those cards are pretty good in fact , not all the plans they made ended up in a positieve way for the axis or the allies.
Sometimes there were unexpected lucky hits and also misses.
      
Nightrain
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Re:Question to Dow: Revised behind enemy lines Sat, 31 October 2009 05:52
i just remembered a remarkable long battle with Johan at Liberation of Roeselare which ended up on my 11-12 defeat (do you still remember the battle bro ?)

in one turn, Johan played Allies Air Power, striking 2d on my 4 weakened units and ended up wiping all of them out at once lol
i should cry out a lotta tears that day hahahaha
      
JJAZ
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Re:Question to Dow: Revised behind enemy lines Sat, 31 October 2009 10:13
As you said it the grounforces had weekened your troops , so my airforce had a more easy job to kill off your remaining units,that where no lucky dices my friend that was strategy Laughing
Nice to hear that you still remember this battle.
      
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