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AT_Angel6
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  Ethics in T2R Wed, 18 November 2009 13:45
Ethics is not about cheating (forbidden of course) or trash talk (allowed of course), but about all kinds of intentional disturbing or confusing the opponent.

An example:

1) I play NC and get Van-Mon, SEA-NY and Kan-Hou. Then I take 2 minutes for my decision, to create the impression that I have an aweful decision to make, with no good choice at all.
For me this is a mild form of unethical behavior, so I wouldn't do it, but maybe it is absolutely all right to act like this?!

2) After taking Van-Mon and Sea-NY I write my opponent that I got bad tickets and that I'm sooo unlucky. This would be very unethical behavior IMHO, but there is no penalty for it, right? One could argue that it's for the good of the team, but I think maybe there should be a rule against it.

3) I connect Sea-Mon-NY-Atl and close the game with 43 cards, keeping the last card for Van-Sea. Opponent already connected Port-SF-LA-Mia-Atl-Nash, I expect to win vs 17+17 (or 20+17), but opponent has to guess whether I have 22+20 (then he needs to draw or block) or 22+9 (or 22+6). Now I write "grats!", creating the impression that I lose vs 17+17.
For me this would be almost as unethical as 2), even though it is no real lie as it could be seen als "grats for you good route, even though you lose" Wink


I'm not suggesting that we urgently need a rule for this, but I would like to read some opinons on this, especially from Mudda who made me think about this topic in our game#4 Razz

[Updated on: Wed, 18 November 2009 13:53]

      
GANG_Truckerteller
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Re:Ethics in T2R Wed, 18 November 2009 14:33
To me, 1 is not unethical at all, but comparable to pausing when someone might or might not have blocked you. Taking two cards immediately also reveals something, so why shouldn't you be allowed to keep your opp completely in the dark as to which tickets you have. 2 Minutes waiting might be a lot, but a certain pause makes a lot of sense to me.

2 and 3 are unethical in my view, or at least not the best sportsmanship.

Talking during the game should be limited to hf, gl, hi and personal chitchat imho. You can analyze the game afterward.
Whining, premature gratsing, making suggestions where your opp is going or any semi-lie to divert your opp has no place in the game chat-window.

I don't think there should be a penalty or anything, I'd just hope my opps think similarly about it.

Basically, playing speed is an integral part of the game, talking is not.

      
Sysyphus
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Re:Ethics in T2R Wed, 18 November 2009 15:00
Can't wait for the rule !!
(even though i'm never doing that in nc)
(hope there will be a rule for that kind of comment too Twisted Evil )

[Updated on: Wed, 18 November 2009 15:04]

      
Mr Bean
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Re:Ethics in T2R Wed, 18 November 2009 16:00
We have had discussions/posts like this before. One i managed to find quite easily is:

http://www.daysofwonder.com/en/msg/?goto=66523#msg_66523

Just adding some fresh comments on this thread:
something i see quite often is what i would describe as 'fishing for information'. Someone has to decide whether they need to draw or not and they try to find out from opponent what tix he/she has by asking all sort of suggestive questions, hoping the answers will give a clue. Is this ethical Smile ?

      
CAT-daedin
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Re:Ethics in T2R Wed, 18 November 2009 16:23
I'm almost 100% agree with Truckerteller.

Just I would say that semi-lies or some suggestion about where you opponent (or you) are going can be ok in a not competition game.

Whining, and specially, premature gratings, should be out of any game.

About point 1, not exactly in this case, but I've expanded my time sometimes, when I knew for sure where I will play.
For example, took case 3 of Angel but without van-mon for me and still 6 cards in my opponent hand,I will probably took some time to finish the game, to make my opponent think I can have van-mon and provocate the one blocking instead of play the 6. I think it is absolutely ethical.
      
senorblanco
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Re:Ethics in T2R Wed, 18 November 2009 16:47
AT_Angel6 schrieb am Wed, 18 November 2009 13:45


1) I play NC and get Van-Mon, SEA-NY and Kan-Hou. Then I take 2 minutes for my decision, to create the impression that I have an aweful decision to make, with no good choice at all.
I hate it in every-day-matches, there are specialists around that ALWAYS do that, but you cant prohibit especially not with rules...
AT_Angel6 schrieb am Wed, 18 November 2009 13:45


3) Now I write "grats!" - unethetical?
THATS WHY I NEVER GRAAAAAAAAAAATS... Very Happy
AT_Angel6 schrieb am Wed, 18 November 2009 13:45


I'm not suggesting that we urgently need a rule for this, but I would like to read some opinons on this, especially from Mudda who made me think about this topic in our game#4 Razz .

Hmmm I remember slightly that I mentioned something like "nix zu holen (engl.: nothing to collect)" but I gave this comment before my very last move as I discovered NOT TO GET LONGEST with my last 4 cards... Ok - nobody knows what that has been supposed to mean but would You as top-player of T2R trust somebody if he writes sth like "GraTS" before end of the game?! I wouldnt...

Reading through the old thread (thx Bean) I think everything is embraced and its not worth more conversation... Bluffing (I didnt try to bluff in game 4) is part of the game and "reading" the context or background of written comments or way of playing of your opponents is the art (and part) of the game...

      
AT_Angel6
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Re:Ethics in T2R Wed, 18 November 2009 16:56
UEG-Mudda schrieb am Wed, 18 November 2009 16:47

...Hmmm I remember slightly that I mentioned something like "nix zu holen (engl.: nothing to collect)"...

Right, I forgot the words but now I remember.
In fact, that words didn't disturb me, they rather convinced me that you had fulfilled your ticks Wink
I only - stupidly - miscounted our points (AND the possible ticks for me - Elric showed me that I had 2 not 1 Rolling Eyes ) and therefore didn't draw for ticks.

UEG-Mudda schrieb am Wed, 18 November 2009 16:47

Reading through the old thread (thx Bean) I think everything is embraced and its not worth more conversation...

That's problaby right, it was just new for me...
      
AT_Angel6
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Re:Ethics in T2R Wed, 18 November 2009 16:58
SOS Truckerteller schrieb am Wed, 18 November 2009 14:33

Basically, playing speed is an integral part of the game, talking is not.

Thanks for this statement, that's exactly what I am thinking! Thumbs Up
      
Hecki
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Re:Ethics in T2R Wed, 18 November 2009 18:42
SOS Truckerteller schrieb am Wed, 18 November 2009 14:33

2 Minutes waiting might be a lot...



If you are xbomanx 2 minutes are really fast. Laughing Laughing Laughing

[Updated on: Wed, 18 November 2009 18:43]

      
toutoune - Morgon
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Re:Ethics in T2R Thu, 19 November 2009 01:50
for me only 1) is incorrect, more than unethical, because you intentionnaly spend 2 minutes of your opponent life for nothing, then don't respect him. It is like people playing with the alarm for fun in a train.

2) and 3) are just crap. Bluff is part of this game. If you don't trust your opponent, just don't trust his words in the chat bar (except if he says he has connection issue and need to leave and connect back, if Nebulousbot appears, just trust him and don't play). What is forbidden is cheating and insulting, not bluffing. Does a poker player complain that the other bluffed him, saying he has bad or good cards???

If a player says me "grats" and finally won the game, my only word in the lobby will be "grats".


[Updated on: Thu, 19 November 2009 01:52]

      
kolmo
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Re:Ethics in T2R Thu, 19 November 2009 03:29
Examples never replace arguments.
      
DrakeStorm
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Re:Ethics in T2R Thu, 19 November 2009 08:16
I would say all 3 examples are fine. Maybe its an American thing, but none of the examples seem very unethical to me.

I guess it might be that I grew up playing alot of "American" boardgames rather than the current crop of "Euro" Games. Deal making, bluffing, back stabbing.. you name it, are in the games I grew up with (Diplomacy, Illuminati, Cosmic Encounters, etc.), so saying something as simple as "grats" as a means of misdirection seems completely fine by me. As long as its not cheating or collusion it should be fine.

Anyone I play games with in America wouldn't let these things even phase them.

I would also be against "stalling" just because the timer for turns for TTR isn't that great (if they implemented some kind of chess timer, then I'd say using the clock however you want would be fine).

      
Lucullupus
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  Re:Ethics in T2R Thu, 19 November 2009 10:22
All 3 are not against the rules, so the question is, how important is it to win? More than to be a "nice guy" or not? I prefer to be nice (in a game where you can't earn even one cent) and I prefer to play against nice opponents - so I would say "grats" to such an (in my opinion unfair) opponent und would avoid playing against him/her in the future... Mad
      
GANG_Truckerteller
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Re:Ethics in T2R Thu, 19 November 2009 10:51
Maybe a better header for this post would have been: Etiquette in T2R.

It's at least interesting to see the comments of chess and bridge players vs. those of boardgame and poker players
      
OLE sebbo
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Re:Ethics in T2R Thu, 19 November 2009 11:27
Just to get this right:

Its ok to mock around in the lobby about a players mistakes, and its ok to provoke the opponent of a teammate, but bluffing during a game is not?

Are you kidding me?

Next time we forbid to lay tracks which are not essentially needed to connect the tickets..... Rolling Eyes
      
AT_Angel6
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Re:Ethics in T2R Thu, 19 November 2009 12:52
OLE sebbo schrieb am Thu, 19 November 2009 11:27

Are you kidding me?

I asked for opinions and posted mine, that's all Wink

Your opinion was already the "most extreme" in 2006, good to see that you didn't change your mind Rolling Eyes

Of course, nobody ever suggested to ban bluffs, but at least some player can distinguish between "playing bluffs" and "verbal bluffs".

I really respect your opinion, and I don't think we should implement a rule against verbal bluffs. But you won't convince me of your opinion by telling my that I'm stupid Laughing
      
kolmo
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Re:Ethics in T2R Thu, 19 November 2009 13:25
#1 frowns upon bluff.

[Updated on: Thu, 19 November 2009 13:35]

      
OLE sebbo
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Re:Ethics in T2R Thu, 19 November 2009 13:58
AT_Angel6 schrieb am Thu, 19 November 2009 12:52


telling my that I'm stupid Laughing


I never did that. And i wouldnt say grats to my opponent during a game to bluff him. But please think about the following examples:

1. If i get bad tickets in the beginning, do i have to take 2 min for my decision, so that my opponent knows, that i have to make a tough one? If not, why should it be the other way round?

2. If an opponent asks me during a game what colors i have left, or which tickets i have fullfilled, must i answer him? If i answer him, must i tell him the truth? If my opponent tells me something about his colors/tickets or writes "grats", what reason should i have to believe him?

Its ME who has to make the decisions during MY game. If i complain about the thing, that my opponent bluffed me by saying grats, its the same as if i complain about that he layed tracks which didnt belong to his tickets, to guide me the wrong way and to confuse me so that i probably take wrong decisions.

3. Why is it ok to provoke and taunt members of other teams after and between their games, but not to say grats during a game? And with "provoking" i dont mean the usual trash talk....
      
AT_Angel6
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Re:Ethics in T2R Thu, 19 November 2009 14:15
kolmo schrieb am Thu, 19 November 2009 13:25

#1 frowns upon bluff.

Right, a little frown because there are different types of bluff IMHO:

-) A real bluff in poker is to raise with bad hand to make the oppent think you got a good one. That's a wonderful part of the game.

-) But flopping a set and then calling a normal bet after 2 minutes of "acting like thinking", so that the opponent might believe the false tell that you are weak - this is so lame! Of course it is allowed, but IMHO not player is really respected who does this.
I browsed through a few poker stars - Daniel Negreanu, Phil Hellmuth, Doyle Brunson, Phil Ivey, Chris Ferguson, Gus Hansen - none of them I ever saw using "verbal bluffs" or "acting bluffs" on TV (maybe Phil Hellmuth is an exeption?!).
      
AT_Angel6
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Re:Ethics in T2R Thu, 19 November 2009 14:31
OLE sebbo schrieb am Thu, 19 November 2009 13:58

1.
2. ...


I agree with you, no need to complain, no reason to believe anything. But from the other players point of view, I would be ashamed of myself if I did such things, a top player doesn't need to do this Cool

OLE sebbo schrieb am Thu, 19 November 2009 13:58

3. Why is it ok to provoke and taunt members of other teams after and between their games, but not to say grats during a game? And with "provoking" i dont mean the usual trash talk...

I try to criticise plays but not persons! If I really hurt someones feelings I'm sorry for that and would not be too proud to appologise for it - here or via PM.
Some players might appreciate and learn something, some players might not believe (and be right sometimes), some people might tell me off, but I don't see that it should be forbidden to criticise in the lobby Twisted Evil
      
OLE sebbo
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Re:Ethics in T2R Thu, 19 November 2009 15:54
AT_Angel6 schrieb am Thu, 19 November 2009 14:15

I browsed through a few poker stars - Daniel Negreanu, Phil Hellmuth, Doyle Brunson, Phil Ivey, Chris Ferguson, Gus Hansen - none of them I ever saw using "verbal bluffs" or "acting bluffs" on TV (maybe Phil Hellmuth is an exeption?!).


Of course they all do such bluffing all the time, because otherwise it would be impossible to win a big pot with a big hand. If everyone could see, that you have a big hand, why would they call you?
      
kolmo
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Re:Ethics in T2R Thu, 19 November 2009 16:12
The poker argument is simply wrong : any enthusiast could recall at least one moment when every player you mentioned used behavioral cues to influence other players. There is even one Pokerstar TV commercial featuring Negreanu acting sheepishly. But even if the argument described reality, it would be weak, as poker players are no epitome of proper etiquette.

[Updated on: Thu, 19 November 2009 16:15]

      
AT_Angel6
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Re:Ethics in T2R Thu, 19 November 2009 16:40
OLE sebbo schrieb am Thu, 19 November 2009 15:54

Of course they all do such bluffing all the time, because otherwise it would be impossible to win a big pot with a big hand. If everyone could see, that you have a big hand, why would they call you?

Of course, nobody knows whether they have a strong hand or not, because they are always calm in the same way - no matter if the hand ist strong or weak Smile
      
AT_Angel6
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Re:Ethics in T2R Thu, 19 November 2009 16:47
kolmo schrieb am Thu, 19 November 2009 16:12

There is even one Pokerstar TV commercial featuring Negreanu acting sheepishly.

I think he said "I show you my hand if you pass", right? Very Happy
And his opponent concluded that Negreanu must have a weak hand for this comment and called him (and won Wink ).

In a way this proves my point. Every verbal or acting bluff is a tell for your opponent. You can never know if he reads it correctly, so top players try to give no tell at all, right? Smile
      
OLE sebbo
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Re:Ethics in T2R Thu, 19 November 2009 16:56
Angel, you still didnt answer my question:

Why it is worse to think about a move (whether there is something to think about or not), or to write something like "grats", why is this worse than criticizing, taunting, mocking, bullying (name it how you want) between two games to provoke a player?
      
kolmo
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Re:Ethics in T2R Thu, 19 November 2009 17:02
Angel,

See for yourself :

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=On9Ii5WrVbE

As for the question you think rhetorical : yes, players try to conceal their intentions, but not necessarily by doing nothing. Breaking patterns is key. Try it, sometimes, why not in this very thread.

[Updated on: Thu, 19 November 2009 17:09]

      
GANG_Truckerteller
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Re:Ethics in T2R Thu, 19 November 2009 17:08
What does a commercial say about reality ?
      
kolmo
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Re:Ethics in T2R Thu, 19 November 2009 17:10
The question is too general to have an answer, Truck, besides conflating most of what I said.

[Updated on: Thu, 19 November 2009 17:12]

      
GANG_Truckerteller
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Re:Ethics in T2R Thu, 19 November 2009 17:13
I was just trying a kolmo impression, I even changed my signature.
      
AT_Angel6
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Re:Ethics in T2R Thu, 19 November 2009 17:29
OLE sebbo schrieb am Thu, 19 November 2009 16:56

Angel, you still didnt answer my question:

Why it is worse to think about a move (whether there is something to think about or not), or to write something like "grats", why is this worse than criticizing, taunting, mocking, bullying (name it how you want) between two games to provoke a player?

I tried to answer it the best I could, maybe you need to read more carefully Wink

I never said that thinking is worse than bullying, that's far from what I believe Twisted Evil
I'm also sure, that I never deliberately taunted or provoked any player, although my English is not good enough to use or understand those words exactly.

Auf Deutsch kann ich dir sagen, dass ich vielleicht mal einen Spieler mit seinem schlechten Spiel aufziehe, aber ich versuche dabei freundlich zu sein. Wenn er sich dadurch beeinflussen lässt und noch schlechter spielt, ist das seine eigene Schuld. Dass Zuschauer parteiisch sind ist ganz normal, damit muss jeder Sportler rechnen, sogar dass er bespuckt und beschipft wird - und davon sind wir im ZuZ noch weit entfernt.
Aber als Spieler möchte ich meinem Duellgegner so viel Respekt wie möglich entgegenbringen. Dazu gehört Höflichkeit und für mich eben auch, dass ich keine Verarschungen versuche, auf die eh nur ein Trottel hineinfällt. Jetzt habe ich vermutlich zum 5. mal dasselbe gesagt, aber etwas anderes habe ich auch nicht zu sagen, auch nicht wenn du 10x nachfrägst Twisted Evil
      
AT_Angel6
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Re:Ethics in T2R Thu, 19 November 2009 17:40
kolmo schrieb am Thu, 19 November 2009 17:02

...Breaking patterns is key...

Breaking patterns is the key ... in the play but not in the behaviour!

A Phil Ivey always looks bored, there is no "acting" at all IMHO. If he really changes his behaviour all the time, this must be very subtile as I notice nothing Rolling Eyes
      
Nayeli
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Re:Ethics in T2R Thu, 19 November 2009 18:04
AT_Angel6 schrieb am Thu, 19 November 2009 17:29


I tried to answer it the best I could, maybe you need to read more carefully Wink

I never said that thinking is worse than bullying, that's far from what I believe Twisted Evil
I'm also sure, that I never deliberately taunted or provoked any player, although my English is not good enough to use or understand those words exactly.

Auf Deutsch kann ich dir sagen, dass ich vielleicht mal einen Spieler mit seinem schlechten Spiel aufziehe, aber ich versuche dabei freundlich zu sein. Wenn er sich dadurch beeinflussen lässt und noch schlechter spielt, ist das seine eigene Schuld. Dass Zuschauer parteiisch sind ist ganz normal, damit muss jeder Sportler rechnen, sogar dass er bespuckt und beschipft wird - und davon sind wir im ZuZ noch weit entfernt.
Aber als Spieler möchte ich meinem Duellgegner so viel Respekt wie möglich entgegenbringen. Dazu gehört Höflichkeit und für mich eben auch, dass ich keine Verarschungen versuche, auf die eh nur ein Trottel hineinfällt. Jetzt habe ich vermutlich zum 5. mal dasselbe gesagt, aber etwas anderes habe ich auch nicht zu sagen, auch nicht wenn du 10x nachfrägst Twisted Evil


Bullshit!

Kleines Beispiel, du abgesandter Gottes - stell dir vor du spielst eine Partie Schach und dein letzter Zug war vielleicht nicht ganz klug. Da kommt plötzlich wer und lacht dich aus. Bist du dann noch konzentriert?
Jetzt wirst vermutlich auch noch sagen - "oh ja, das bin ich" - Fein! Aber der gute Mann hinter dir lässt es nicht und hackt weiter auf dir rum. Meinst nicht, dass dir das auch irgendwann mal auf deine goldenen Löckchen schlägt?
So wie du es oben beschrieben hast, ist es dir scheiß egal, ob jemand ein Problem damit hat oder nicht.

Wie White schon sagte, der ganze Thread ist lächerlich!

Schlimm finde ich vielmehr, dass sich hier ein paar Leute befinden, die sich im Krieg glauben. Spieler werden aufs übelste beschimpft und nieder gemacht. Lügen und Intrigen sind hier an der Tagesordnung und DAS ist etwas, was mich wirklich ankotzt.

Und hier wird wirklich von einem "grats" gesprochen, als wäre es ein Verbrechen, wenn man es im Spiel sagt.
Ich selbst habe es gestern zu Sookie gesagt, weil ich davon ausging, dass sie ihre Tix erfüllt hat. Konnte ja nicht wissen, dass ich ihr eins getötet hab. Sie hat mich weder als gemeine Blockersau betitelt noch mir gesagt, ich verstünde nichts von Ethic.

Ich bin bestimmt keine Heilige aber ich trample nicht noch auf Menschen rum, die eh schon verunsichert sind oder am Boden liegen. Denk mal drüber nach, Angel Smile

      
GANG_Truckerteller
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Re:Ethics in T2R Thu, 19 November 2009 18:19
Competitive play forum, English
      
solinsf
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Re:Ethics in T2R Thu, 19 November 2009 18:36
My foreign language skills are really improving just by reading these forums. For instance, in today's forum, I learned a new German word: "Bullsh*t."

I agree whole-heartedly with Drake's post: I think there are might be some cultural overtones to what people perceive as unethical. For whatever reason, Americans (myself included) love to whine about their cards/tickets/colors. When I whine, it's usually out of frustration because the cards/tickets/colors really are terrible. But, of course, if you're going to whine about the bad hands, you need to occasionally whine about the good ones too; otherwise, you'll become an open book. So when I whine with good hands, it's not so much to misdirect anyone; it's just to preserve my ability to whine about the bad hands without giving myself away.

That said, complaining about cards is not something I would ever do in tournament play, and it's something I try to avoid unless I'm playing with people who know me well enough to tune out anything I say. But I would not feel particularly misused if someone else whined about their tickets/cards in a tournament game, and it turned out he/she had a great hand. To me, it's fairly self-evident that tactical decisions can't be based on an opposing player's idle chatter; they have to be assessed based on the play itself.
      
AT_Angel6
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Re:Ethics in T2R Thu, 19 November 2009 18:37
I was interested in this topic, but this is really getting too emotional for me ... END
      
Nayeli
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Re:Ethics in T2R Thu, 19 November 2009 18:48
SOS Truckerteller schrieb am Thu, 19 November 2009 18:19

Competitive play forum, English


Trucky, you are allowed to translate my post Wink

Sorry, but when I'm getting mad I have to write in german. Cause my english sucks.
      
GANG_Truckerteller
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Re:Ethics in T2R Thu, 19 November 2009 18:55
Then, don't get too mad, my dear Nay Smile
      
solinsf
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Re:Ethics in T2R Thu, 19 November 2009 19:02
"Sorry, but when I'm getting mad I have to write in german. Cause my english sucks."

Except when it comes to the curse words, where she's 100% fluent. Actually, you sell yourself short, Nayeli. Your English is excellent.
      
bassie
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Re:Ethics in T2R Thu, 19 November 2009 21:00
For all the ones who had enough: please skip this message. As I am not in NC anymore, I have not been around very frequently lately until I was told about this thread. Having read the comments, I am convinced that most people aren't bored of this either.

OK, first the examples brought about by Angel (sic!):

1

thinking before taking Sea-NY, Van-Mon

Of course that is OK! 2 minutes is over the top, but I even tipped my team members to take a standard thinking time with any ticket combination (in 99% of the time 30 sec is sufficient). No freebies in NC!

2

whining when lucky

I despise whining, I try to keep it for that 1-out-of-100 game. As a tactic to win a game I think it is cheap and useless, but I have nothing against it.

3

fake grats

I think I fell for it once or twice. Then it got boring. I don't react on it and I don't think it negatively influences my game. So I guess I don't care if my opponent tries.

Now for some aggression:

sebbo reacts to something that, as far as I can see, no one said

Its ok to mock around in the lobby about a players mistakes, and its ok to provoke the opponent of a teammate

and again

Why is it ok to provoke and taunt members of other teams after and between their games, but not to say grats during a game? And with "provoking" i dont mean the usual trash talk....

I don't want to act blue-eyedness, but who exactly said this was OK? And who is supposedly doing this? And what is this provoking exactly, making it worse than trash talk (which I prefer to keep for friends, since irony should be read from a human face, not from an interface)?

and here is Nayeli

Kleines Beispiel, du abgesandter Gottes - stell dir vor du spielst eine Partie Schach und dein letzter Zug war vielleicht nicht ganz klug. Da kommt plötzlich wer und lacht dich aus. Bist du dann noch konzentriert?
Jetzt wirst vermutlich auch noch sagen - "oh ja, das bin ich" - Fein! Aber der gute Mann hinter dir lässt es nicht und hackt weiter auf dir rum. Meinst nicht, dass dir das auch irgendwann mal auf deine goldenen Löckchen schlägt?
So wie du es oben beschrieben hast, ist es dir scheiß egal, ob jemand ein Problem damit hat oder nicht.

short translation for the ones who never cared to learn German

Nayeli gives the example of Angel being laughed at chess after making a lousy last move. She expects him to say he would still be concentrated. Would that still be the case if this person keeps on bashing him? she rhetorically asks. Apparently, says Nayeli, Angel doesn't care less if someone would have a problem with this.

Nayeli, do I correctly assume you think Angel is doing this? If not, apologies for the misunderstanding but otherwise I disagree. I know Angel, erps, myself and others have told players during an NC match what they could have done better. So what? If an NC player gives me one clear signal (yes, clear, I am still a man) that he would like me to stop commenting his games during the match, I will be silent. And I think I am right if I assume erps and Angel and others would do so too. But if not: who said competitive T2R is a rose garden? I can tell you I was in stress too in what could have been the last NC game of my team a few weeks ago. I won because I was luckier than xsandrax. One feels that, even though this is an unpaid, simple game, pressure comes up. And yes, the one who stand it have an advantage. Guess what, that is how competitiveness works. For once I couldn't say it better than Angel did:
Quote:

...dass ich vielleicht mal einen Spieler mit seinem schlechten Spiel aufziehe, aber ich versuche dabei freundlich zu sein. Wenn er sich dadurch beeinflussen lässt und noch schlechter spielt, ist das seine eigene Schuld. Dass Zuschauer parteiisch sind ist ganz normal, damit muss jeder Sportler rechnen, sogar dass er bespuckt und beschipft wird - und davon sind wir im ZuZ noch weit entfernt.

in English

... that sometimes I tease a player with his lousy play, but I try to be friendly. If he gets influenced by that and plays even worse, that is his own fault. That spectators take sides is totally normal, every sportsman should take that into account, even being spit at and cursed at - and we are far from that in T2R.


and last but not least from Nayeli

Schlimm finde ich vielmehr, dass sich hier ein paar Leute befinden, die sich im Krieg glauben. Spieler werden aufs übelste beschimpft und nieder gemacht. Lügen und Intrigen sind hier an der Tagesordnung und DAS ist etwas, was mich wirklich ankotzt.

and in English again...

What I despise is that some people here think they are in war. Player are cursed at big time and talked down. Lies and intrigues are daily business here and I get sick and tired of it.

Nayeli, if you come with such a huge allegation, you need to give names. Either that or bury it. Intrigues will remain if you keep them underground. I would have done so myself if I knew whom are what you are talking about. (Admittedly, my daily T2R network is fairly limited.) In all honesty, I am a bit surprised to hear this complaint from you since, fair and square, (happy to quote you in this)
Nayeli says

Ich bin bestimmt keine Heilige (I am definitely not a saint).

I rest my case.
      
GANG_dea1
Senior Member
T2R Nation Cup 2007 Winner

Posts: 1859
Registered:
September 2005
Re:Ethics in T2R Thu, 19 November 2009 21:02
AT_Angel6 schrieb am Thu, 19 November 2009 17:29


... auch, dass ich keine Verarschungen versuche, auf die eh nur ein Trottel hineinfällt.

Welcome to the club in that case Twisted Evil
Don't worry, it's nice there, I'm a member since I first met Mudda in 2005 Rolling Eyes
      
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