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sam1812
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Combat Card Questions Mon, 07 December 2009 06:19
I just played my first game with Combat rules. So far, I like it, and I can see all why all that the terrain justifies adding some extra punch to the cards.

A couple of questions came up, and since I was playing solitaire, my opponent didn't know the new rules any better than I did:

* Fortify: "Place a spare sandbag in 1 ordered unit's hex after the unit has moved and battled." Is this saying that armor and artillery can be sandbagged now?

* Sniper: Unlike some other cards, this one doesn't specify that the Sniper be made from a surplus unit. Does this mean the sniper can be taken from casualty figures?

* Street fighting: "One ordered unit in, or next to, a building hex may Close Assault with 1 additional die." May the unit move before Close Assaulting?
      
ad79
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Re:Combat Card Questions Mon, 07 December 2009 07:56
I played this solitaire yesterday too.The Pavlov standard scenario. Russians won 9-8

My answers would be: Yes, Yes, Yes.
      
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Re:Combat Card Questions Mon, 07 December 2009 16:47
I concur
      
RBorg
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Re:Combat Card Questions Tue, 08 December 2009 06:06
Hi Sam 1812

sam1812 wrote on Mon, 07 December 2009 00:19

I just played my first game with Combat rules. So far, I like it, and I can see all why all that the terrain justifies adding some extra punch to the cards.

A couple of questions came up, and since I was playing solitaire, my opponent didn't know the new rules any better than I did:

* Fortify: "Place a spare sandbag in 1 ordered unit's hex after the unit has moved and battled." Is this saying that armor and artillery can be sandbagged now?


(RB) Yes, any unit may fortify its position with this Combat card.

Quote:


* Sniper: Unlike some other cards, this one doesn't specify that the Sniper be made from a surplus unit. Does this mean the sniper can be taken from casualty figures?


(RB) There currently are four Combat cards that allow figures to be brought into or back into the battle.

Sniper - A figure not deployed at start of the battle or lost fighting, may be used for the Sniper.

Armor Factory - Figures not deployed at start of the battle or lost fighting, may be used for the Armor unit. If there are not enough figures to make a full strength unit the unit may not be placed.

Reinforcements - Figures not deployed at start of the battle or lost fighting may be used to muster a full strength reinforcement unit. If there are not enough figures to make a full strength unit, no reinforcements.

Return to Duty - If there are not enough lost Russian infantry figures, the extra return to duty rolls, are ignored.

Quote:


* Street fighting: "One ordered unit in, or next to, a building hex may Close Assault with 1 additional die." May the unit move before Close Assaulting?


(RB) As the Combat card rules state - One ordered unit in or next to, a building hex may Close Assault with 1 additional die. An order unit may move prior to to battling.

Enjoy!
Richard Borg
      
RBorg
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Re:Combat Card Questions Tue, 08 December 2009 06:18
Also note, lost figures that are on your opponent's Medal Track may not be used as a Sniper, Armor Factory figure, Reinforcement figure or Return to Duty figure Very Happy

Richard Borg
      
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Re:Combat Card Questions Wed, 09 December 2009 13:00
Appreciate the visits to these forums Richard. You must be very busy at the moment especially with the long overdue publication of the Napoleonic version of your system.

Well done on that and on this addition to the Memoir stable. My heartfelt congratulations.
      
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Re:Combat Card Questions Sun, 13 December 2009 04:18
On the note of Street Fights, does one have to declare which unit receives the extra die at the beginning of the turn? That is to say, if one declares his Street Fight to be used by a given unit, but said unit's only target retreats earlier in the turn, does that invalidate the extra Close Assault die altogether, or may it be used elsewhere?
      
sam1812
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Re:Combat Card Questions Sun, 13 December 2009 06:01
Also, when both Blitz and Combat rules are in effect, if the German player uses a Recon-1 to call in an air strike, does he draw a Combat card afterward?
      
stevens
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Re:Combat Card Questions Sun, 13 December 2009 06:09
I think that you probably get a combat card every time you play a Recon-1 card regardless of how it is played as an airstrike or ordering 1 unit. That is the of course the simplest way to play it.
      
ad79
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Re:Combat Card Questions Sun, 13 December 2009 07:56
stevens wrote on Sun, 13 December 2009 06:09

I think that you probably get a combat card every time you play a Recon-1 card regardless of how it is played as an airstrike or ordering 1 unit. That is the of course the simplest way to play it.


I disagree with this. I think the Combat card is only drawn when using it as a Recon 1, and not when playing it as Air Power/Air Sortie. You copy the whole effect, and thus it is an Air Power/Air Sortie card and no longer a Recon 1. Just my thought.
      
ad79
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Re:Combat Card Questions Sun, 13 December 2009 08:45
I have a couple of questions myself after playing all three scenarios that use the Combat Deck. Exellent sceanrios all three. Can we please have some more, Richard?

Fortify: "Place a spare sandbag in 1 ordered unit's hex after the unit has moved and battled."
Can I fortify a unit that only battles, but doesn't move and vice versa?

Sniper: "Place a single figure and Sniper badge on a vacant hex adjacent to 1 ordered INFANTRY unit."
This is placed adjacent 1 ordered unit, BEFORE that unit moves, right?

Heat of Battle: "I ordered INFANTRY unit that makes a successful Close Assault and manages to take ground may battle again..."
If this unit was ordered with a Command Card that gives it a bonus die, for instance TFH, does the unit gets the extra die on the second attack?

Reinforcements: "...deploy at full strength on a vacant hex of your baseline...."
Am I right in thinking that if you have no vacant baseline hexes you can't play this card?

Reposition: "After battling, all your ordered ARTILLERY unit may move 2 hexes"
If the Artillery unit is Ambushed and has to retreat,and therefore can't battle. Can it still use this card and move 2 hexes?
And a minor issue, but shouldn't the card read "ARTILLERY units" and not "ARTILLERY unit"?


Pull back: "Pull a defending unit back. .... Your opponent's unit loses it's opportunity to battle for this turn."
Can I play this card on a unit on my baseline hex as a way to stop my opponent from attacking me?
And if I can do that, do I have to lose 1 figure since I can't retreat?
It would be a very smart play if you have a 2 figure unit up against a unit ordered with a card that gives it ecxtra dice.


Out of ammo: "...The unit is forced to fall back on a vacant baseline hex in the same section of the battlefield. ..."
What if there are no vacant baseline hex in that battlefield section?
Does it lose one figure foe each hexrow it's unable to enter?
Can I play this card on an enemy unit on the enemy baseline hex as a way to stop him from attacking me?
      
tank commander
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Re:Combat Card Questions Sun, 13 December 2009 12:45
ad79 wrote on Sun, 13 December 2009 02:45

I have a couple of questions myself after playing all three scenarios that use the Combat Deck. Exellent sceanrios all three. Can we please have some more, Richard?

Fortify: "Place a spare sandbag in 1 ordered unit's hex after the unit has moved and battled."
Can I fortify a unit that only battles, but doesn't move and vice versa?

As arty can only either fire or move (with the exception of Mobile Arty) I believe the answer to be yes. Richard, in his post above indicated that arty may use the Fortify Card.

Sniper: "Place a single figure and Sniper badge on a vacant hex adjacent to 1 ordered INFANTRY unit."
This is placed adjacent 1 ordered unit, BEFORE that unit moves, right?

Not 100% sure, but that is how I played it.

Heat of Battle: "I ordered INFANTRY unit that makes a successful Close Assault and manages to take ground may battle again..."
If this unit was ordered with a Command Card that gives it a bonus die, for instance TFH, does the unit gets the extra die on the second attack?

I would think the answer to be yes on this one.

Reinforcements: "...deploy at full strength on a vacant hex of your baseline...."
Am I right in thinking that if you have no vacant baseline hexes you can't play this card?

Again, I would say yes and would be consistent with how reinforcements are handled in the Campaign Book.


Reposition: "After battling, all your ordered ARTILLERY unit may move 2 hexes" If the Artillery unit is Ambushed and has to retreat,and therefore can't battle. Can it still use this card and move 2 hexes? And a minor issue, but shouldn't the card read "ARTILLERY units" and not "ARTILLERY unit"?

Hmmm, good question. Not sure about that one.

Pull back: "Pull a defending unit back. .... Your opponent's unit loses it's opportunity to battle for this turn."
Can I play this card on a unit on my baseline hex as a way to stop my opponent from attacking me?
And if I can do that, do I have to lose 1 figure since I can't retreat?
It would be a very smart play if you have a 2 figure unit up against a unit ordered with a card that gives it ecxtra dice.



Out of ammo: "...The unit is forced to fall back on a vacant baseline hex in the same section of the battlefield. ..."
What if there are no vacant baseline hex in that battlefield section?
Does it lose one figure foe each hexrow it's unable to enter?
Can I play this card on an enemy unit on the enemy baseline hex as a way to stop him from attacking me?


The two questions above are a bit trickier. In the first, I am thinking if you can not fall back at least one hex you could not use the card.






[Updated on: Mon, 14 December 2009 00:29]

      
nemesszili
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Re:Combat Card Questions Sun, 13 December 2009 13:13
Hm... I guess artillery can't be ambushed, because it can't close assault... only infantry and armor.
      
ad79
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Re:Combat Card Questions Sun, 13 December 2009 13:42
nemesszili wrote on Sun, 13 December 2009 13:13

Hm... I guess artillery can't be ambushed, because it can't close assault... only infantry and armor.


I meant Close Assault as in attacking the adjacent hex, not units ordered by the "Close Assault" command card. That card is only INFANTRY and ARMOR. So with a normal close assault attack the artillery unit may be ambushed.

[Updated on: Mon, 14 December 2009 10:04]

      
ad79
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Re:Combat Card Questions Sun, 13 December 2009 13:46
Dakmor wrote on Sun, 13 December 2009 04:18

On the note of Street Fights, does one have to declare which unit receives the extra die at the beginning of the turn? That is to say, if one declares his Street Fight to be used by a given unit, but said unit's only target retreats earlier in the turn, does that invalidate the extra Close Assault die altogether, or may it be used elsewhere?


I would say you have to play it when you are ordering the unit and therefore it is a lost opportunity. And though luck to you!
A clear example of a situation where you should be attacking with the unit that has a Combat card first, so you don't end up without a target.
      
sam1812
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Re:Combat Card Questions Sun, 13 December 2009 17:26
The questions just keep coming.

If Rattenkrieg allows an infantry to move 3 hexes and battle, even if it ends its move on a building, can you combine it with Behind Enemy Lines to move 6 hexes, stop on a building, battle, and then move 3 more hexes?

Can you combine two Rattenkriegs to move 6 hexes?

Also, on TFH, do you decide whether to play Combat cards before or after rolling dice to find out what units you can order?

[Updated on: Sun, 13 December 2009 17:41]

      
nemesszili
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Re:Combat Card Questions Sun, 13 December 2009 18:25
But just one more thing; artillery can't take ground because it can't close assault - as an action, not as per card. Only infantry and armor may take ground, right?
      
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Re:Combat Card Questions Sun, 13 December 2009 18:30
nemesszili wrote on Sun, 13 December 2009 09:25

But just one more thing; artillery can't take ground because it can't close assault - as an action, not as per card. Only infantry and armor may take ground, right?


Why can't Artillery close assault? If a unit is right up in their grill, they can blast away at them just like any other unit!

I don't know if that means Artillery can Take Ground, but they can definitely attack adjacent units which means they can close assault.
      
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Re:Combat Card Questions Mon, 14 December 2009 00:31
ad79 wrote on Sun, 13 December 2009 07:42

nemesszili wrote on Sun, 13 December 2009 13:13

Hm... I guess artillery can't be ambushed, because it can't close assault... only infantry and armor.


Tank Commander: Thanks for the answers you were able to give, but I am puzzled by one of them.


Heat of Battle: "I ordered INFANTRY unit that makes a successful Close Assault and manages to take ground may battle again..."
If this unit was ordered with a Command Card that gives it a bonus die, for instance TFH, does the unit gets the extra die on the second attack?

That is correct and in the Combat Card rules.


I couldn't find this in the rules, but if you are refering to the die modifiers stacking rules, I am unsure if that apply here. Heat of Battle doesn't give any extra die. So my question is probably better phrased like this:
Does a unit ordered with Their Finest Hour and then by the Heat of Battle Combat card gets to keep the extra die offered by TFH for the second attack?



Sorry, I was in a bit of a hurry this morning. I have amended my post above.
      
nemesszili
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Re:Combat Card Questions Mon, 14 December 2009 09:42
After some research (in my room), I found the rulebook of the base game.

"An Artillery unit may not take ground."

But it didn't mention, that it couldn't close assault.
And because the "Close Assault" card stated, that only armor and infantry units may participate in this action, then it would be obvious, that artillery cannot close assault.
      
ad79
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Re:Combat Card Questions Mon, 14 December 2009 10:09
nemesszili wrote on Mon, 14 December 2009 09:42

After some research (in my room), I found the rulebook of the base game.

"An Artillery unit may not take ground."

But it didn't mention, that it couldn't close assault.
And because the "Close Assault" card stated, that only armor and infantry units may participate in this action, then it would be obvious, that artillery cannot close assault.



No offense here, but I get a feeling you play with a rule saying Artillery can't attack units in an adjacent hex.
If that is so, I would say you are wrong. If I am wrong in thinking this, just ignore this post.

I am positive Artillery can attack a unit in an adjacent hex, hence the range being 3-3-2-2-1-1. If it couldn't attack a unit in an adjacent hex it would have a range of 0-3-2-2-1-1 and the basegame rulebook would state that artilelry can't attack units in an adjacent hex and it wouldn't be able to fire at a distant target either if a unit was adjacent.

But an artillery unit can't be ordered by the "Close Assault" card, an that is the reasen why that card mentions INFANTRY and ARMOR.

Again, no offense meant.

Stig Morten
      
ad79
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Re:Combat Card Questions Mon, 14 December 2009 10:15
sam1812 wrote on Sun, 13 December 2009 17:26

The questions just keep coming.

If Rattenkrieg allows an infantry to move 3 hexes and battle, even if it ends its move on a building, can you combine it with Behind Enemy Lines to move 6 hexes, stop on a building, battle, and then move 3 more hexes?

Can you combine two Rattenkriegs to move 6 hexes?

Also, on TFH, do you decide whether to play Combat cards before or after rolling dice to find out what units you can order?


First question. i would say no, but Rattenkrieg can allow the unit to battle from the building hex. But no extra movement, as far as I know.

You play combat cards when you order units, and you have to roll the dice before you order the units, so you would play the combat cards when you know which units you can order.
      
nemesszili
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Re:Combat Card Questions Mon, 14 December 2009 10:50
I never felt, that anyone is rude here, I did my best as well not to be too harsh.

I always fired with artillery like 3-3-2-2-1-1. Only that attacking with artillery against adjacent units doesn't count as close assault action, only as a ranged attack.
      
sam1812
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Re:Combat Card Questions Mon, 14 December 2009 13:27
ad79 wrote on Mon, 14 December 2009 04:15

sam1812 wrote on Sun, 13 December 2009 17:26

The questions just keep coming.

If Rattenkrieg allows an infantry to move 3 hexes and battle, even if it ends its move on a building, can you combine it with Behind Enemy Lines to move 6 hexes, stop on a building, battle, and then move 3 more hexes?

Can you combine two Rattenkriegs to move 6 hexes?

Also, on TFH, do you decide whether to play Combat cards before or after rolling dice to find out what units you can order?


First question. i would say no, but Rattenkrieg can allow the unit to battle from the building hex. But no extra movement, as far as I know.

You play combat cards when you order units, and you have to roll the dice before you order the units, so you would play the combat cards when you know which units you can order.

We know that Combat cards are fundamentally different from other modifiers we've seen before in at least one important way: Dice modifications are accumulative. You could play 4 Street Fights on a unit on a TFH and have it roll 8 dice. So any understandings we have from the earlier literature on Command cards may not be applicable.

I think we need specific, official guidance on whether or not Combat cards' movement effects are also accumulative.

[Updated on: Mon, 14 December 2009 13:34]

      
tank commander
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  Re:Combat Card Questions Mon, 14 December 2009 13:34
Cheers to all here who are trying to find answers to all these questions.

My answers, are of course unofficial. I am sure that we will receive official answers soon.

Great to see all these players trying to be helpful and also being considerate of others (and their thoughts on the matter). Smile
      
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Re:Combat Card Questions Mon, 14 December 2009 21:06
rasmussen81 wrote on Sun, 13 December 2009 17:30

nemesszili wrote on Sun, 13 December 2009 09:25

But just one more thing; artillery can't take ground because it can't close assault - as an action, not as per card. Only infantry and armor may take ground, right?


I don't know if that means Artillery can Take Ground, but they can definitely attack adjacent units which means they can close assault.


I'm sure artillery can't / shouldn't Take Ground. Clearing ground i.e. forcing a unit to retreat through a flag roll, yes. Hopefully no one is playing that rule? Rolling Eyes

[Updated on: Tue, 15 December 2009 22:37]

      
nemesszili
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Re:Combat Card Questions Mon, 14 December 2009 21:56
I'm definitely not. Artillery is so powerful here, that it couldn't be ambushed, because it can't close assault => so it can't take ground either.
      
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Re:Combat Card Questions Mon, 14 December 2009 22:08
nemesszili wrote on Mon, 14 December 2009 12:56

I'm definitely not. Artillery is so powerful here, that it couldn't be ambushed, because it can't close assault => so it can't take ground either.


I'm so confused here. Confused Why can't Artillery be ambushed?!

I looked back to some of your earlier posts, nemesszili, and it looks like you don't think Artillery can close assault (attack an adjacent unit) because they aren't included in the Close Assault Command Card. I can see your reasoning, but the rules never say that Artillery can't close assault...they just aren't included in that card. Maybe they aren't included because it would make them too powerful (getting to ignore all terrain protection and attack with 4 dice)

You're saying that Artillery can attack an adjacent unit but it's not called a close assault, so what is it called? This thread is the first time I've heard the idea that Artillery can't do a close assault.
      
nemesszili
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Re:Combat Card Questions Mon, 14 December 2009 22:41
My theory is, that artillery attacks at 3-3-2-2-1-1.
It CAN attack adjacent units, but that doesn't count as close assault, but it is a ranged attack. => only armor and infantry could take ground, because they could close assault. It is stated, that artillery couldn't take ground, so it cannot close assault.

I could imagine attacking infantry units being ambushed, but how about artillery? They are just firing, no one can punish them.

As I wrote all this stuff, I found something, which proves that I'm wrong. Better keep my mouth shut...

"A unit attacking an adjacent enemy unit is said to be in "Close Assault" with that enemy."

I guess that artillery can't take ground thing confused me well...
even though I have been playing this game for more than a year, there's still much to be learned.
      
ad79
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Re:Combat Card Questions Mon, 14 December 2009 23:02
nemesszili wrote on Mon, 14 December 2009 22:41

Better keep my mouth shut...


Please don't, only 32 hours after you posted this:
nemesszili wrote on Sun, 13 December 2009 13:13

Hm... I guess artillery can't be ambushed, because it can't close assault... only infantry and armor.

there were posted 11 messages full of confusion, arguments about Artillery, close assault, ambush, taking ground and some even mentioned Clearing Ground which isn't a term used in this game.

It has been a fun argument and I guess more than one of us have read through the basegame rulebook looking for the rule that said Artillery couldn't close assault or be ambushed. I know I did.

So I guess you found a new use for the Ambush card today, and I hope you can put that knowledge to good use.

Stig Morten
      
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Re:Combat Card Questions Mon, 14 December 2009 23:13
Whoa there! Boy this is a mess. Laughing

Close assault is defined as one unit attacking another in an adjacent hex. So all units can close assault.

Rules page 8: "A unit attacking an adjacent enemy unit is said to be in "Close Assault" with that enemy.
A unit attacking an enemy unit more than 1 hex away is said to "Fire" at that enemy."

The Close Assault card and the rules about taking ground are totally separate. (It even has a separate section in the rule book. Shocked )

Ambush can of course be used by artillery as artillery can attack an adjacent unit (and this is what close assault means by definition) and the card says nothing about any restrictions on its use.
      
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Re:Combat Card Questions Mon, 14 December 2009 23:39
So to make it all clear, that I know the difference between all these actions and cards:

Ambush - card, which is played after the opponent declares close assault (as action, not as card)

Close Assault (action) - when attacking adjacent units

Close Assault (card) - only infantry and armor may participate, they may not move, but they may fire with +1 die, and they must be adjacent to enemy units

Take ground - after close assault, if flag is rolled, attacking unit may occupy the now vacant hex

Clearing Ground - non-sens, I didn't use this word

I have players on Vassal, who could prove, that I could make difference between all these cards and actions - I used them even on this very day!

As a final word, it is always good to refresh your knowledge.
Sorry if I was rude or made TOO MUCH confusion, and sorry for disturbing you all.

As of the artillery, well yes, I didn't taken into account, that if firing with it against adjacent units does or doesn't count as close assault.

[Updated on: Mon, 14 December 2009 23:40]

      
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Re:Combat Card Questions Tue, 15 December 2009 03:39
Also of note concerning artillery and adjacent units, that in such a case they also MUST Close Assault instead of Firing on a target further away, like the other unit types.
      
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Re:Combat Card Questions Tue, 15 December 2009 08:44
Exactly! Even though you could fire on a 1-fig infantry, you must fire on adjacent units...
      
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Re:Combat Card Questions Tue, 15 December 2009 22:25
When I talked about Clearing Ground I shouldn't have used Bold and capital initials - i didn't mean it as a formal phrase. What I did mean was the effect of artillery forcing an adjacent enemy to retreat through normal close assault i.e. a flag(s) roll and then not Taking Ground, which would seem a more realistic outcome for artillery.

However, do people think Clearing Ground is an interesting phrase for a future Combat Card - whatever it may mean? Rolling Eyes

[Updated on: Tue, 15 December 2009 22:27]

      
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Re:Combat Card Questions Tue, 15 December 2009 23:15
Achtung Panzer wrote on Tue, 15 December 2009 16:25

However, do people think Clearing Ground is an interesting phrase for a future Combat Card - whatever it may mean? Rolling Eyes



Yeah, clearing a fast path through forest hexes by engineers. Laughing
      
ad79
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Re:Combat Card Questions Tue, 15 December 2009 23:33
Sgt Storm wrote on Tue, 15 December 2009 23:15

Achtung Panzer wrote on Tue, 15 December 2009 16:25

However, do people think Clearing Ground is an interesting phrase for a future Combat Card - whatever it may mean? Rolling Eyes



Yeah, clearing a fast path through forest hexes by engineers. Laughing


Could be a useful thing to do in scenarios involving hedgerows. Didn't the Americans develop tanks that could plow the hedgerows down or something?

"Clearing Ground" card could allow tanks to clear away any hedgerows it moves through on a turn. It can't attack and units in the hedgerows must retreat. Units that can't retreat are lost without giving the enemy a medal.

That would be very useful for "Hedgerow Hell" or "Operation Cobra"
      
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Re:Combat Card Questions Wed, 16 December 2009 01:54
ad79 wrote on Tue, 15 December 2009 14:33

Sgt Storm wrote on Tue, 15 December 2009 23:15

Achtung Panzer wrote on Tue, 15 December 2009 16:25

However, do people think Clearing Ground is an interesting phrase for a future Combat Card - whatever it may mean? Rolling Eyes



Yeah, clearing a fast path through forest hexes by engineers. Laughing


Could be a useful thing to do in scenarios involving hedgerows. Didn't the Americans develop tanks that could plow the hedgerows down or something?

"Clearing Ground" card could allow tanks to clear away any hedgerows it moves through on a turn. It can't attack and units in the hedgerows must retreat. Units that can't retreat are lost without giving the enemy a medal.

That would be very useful for "Hedgerow Hell" or "Operation Cobra"


Correct ad79, the Sherman Rhino was a modified sherman tank that featured welded 'horns' (steel plates) on the front that allowed it to cut through the hedgerows.
      
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June 2008
Re:Combat Card Questions Wed, 16 December 2009 08:51
I guess the flamethrower versions of the
Stuarts => Satan

and Shermans => Crocodile

became very useful during 'Hedgerow Hell'.

At this point of the war, infantry units had to advance with armor, and vice-versa. They had to cooperate, if they wished to break through.
      
tank commander
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I Love Pineapples

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October 2004
Re:Combat Card Questions Wed, 16 December 2009 11:53
[quote title=ad79 wrote on Tue, 15 December 2009 17:33]
Sgt Storm wrote on Tue, 15 December 2009 23:15

Didn't the Americans develop tanks that could plow the hedgerows down or something?



Not the Americans, but an American. I believe the US Army soldier who came up with that idea was Sgt Cullen. American ingenuity at it's finest. that simple device could have been used a lot earlier in the Normandy campaign.

Of course, the Brits were a lot more creative (with their large array of "funnies") and seemed to have more foresight than the U.S. in developing special vehicles to deal with the various problems associated with the D-Day landings.

[Updated on: Wed, 16 December 2009 11:56]

      
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