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tank commander
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Market Garden OL bridges Thu, 24 December 2009 00:49
Hi all. Just played this and my opponent and I disagreed on how the bridge medals are earned.

There were two interpretations(I will not state who said what here).

One player thought to control the bridge all you had to do was:

1) be on it

OR

2) be adjacent to it and have no enemy units adjacent to it.

The other player thought that a unit had to be:

1) on the bridge with no enemy units adjacent to that bridge

OR

2)

adjacent to that bridge with no enemy unit on or adjacent to that bridge.

Input is welcome on this issue (after reading the scenario notes).

Thank you,

TC

[Updated on: Thu, 24 December 2009 00:51]

      
sam1812
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Re:Market Garden OL bridges Thu, 24 December 2009 01:09
The scenario notes say, "A bridge is under uncontested control when a unit is on the bridge or in an adjacent hex AND there are no enemy units in any hex adjacent to the bridge or on it."

I read that AND as a way to separate two conditions that must both be met.

The bridge and six hexes surrounding it comprise a zone of control around the bridge. You must have at least one unit in that zone, AND your opponent may not have any units in that zone. If the opponent had any units in the zone, the control would not be uncontested.

That sounds like your second option.
      
Freeloading Phill
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Re:Market Garden OL bridges Thu, 24 December 2009 01:17
My interpretation was:

Be on the bridge regardless of any enemy units adjacent.

Or

Be adjacent to the bridge with no enemy units on or adjacent to the bridge.



Our groups questions for Market Garden OL revolved around the interpretation of "Majority of town hexes" which we flip flopped backwards and forwards on throughout the game
and
taking ground after close assault from the woods next to the central bridge - since bridges on roads may only be entered from the road. (Even retreat off the bridge was in question because of the bridges on roads thing)

Ultimately it didn't matter though as the Allies ran out of steam and didn't come close to winning. Smile

Phill
[edit] removed incorrect "bridge" from majority paragraph

[Updated on: Thu, 24 December 2009 01:30]

      
gp_man
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Re:Market Garden OL bridges Thu, 24 December 2009 05:47
I agree with Sam
      
Achtung Panzer
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Re:Market Garden OL bridges Thu, 24 December 2009 09:18
Yep, Sam has explained it right and that's how I play it.
      
clexton27
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Re:Market Garden OL bridges Thu, 24 December 2009 12:21
The text in dispute is found here:

http://www.daysofwonder.com/memoir44/en/editor/view/?id=5342

Quote:

Three bridges (the bridge over Wilhelmina Canal, the Waal at Nijmegen and Arnhem bridge) are Temporary Medal Objectives worth 1 medal each for whoever has uncontested control of them at the start of a turn. A bridge is under uncontested control when a unit is on the bridge or in an adjacent hex AND there are no enemy units in any hex adjacent to the bridge or on it.


The rule exists to describe what requirements the player needs to fulfill to have UNCONTESTED CONTROL.

The rule gives (2) Conditions:

1. A bridge is under uncontested control when a unit is - on the bridge

OR

2. A bridge is under uncontested control when a unit is - in an adjacent hex AND there are no enemy units in any hex adjacent to the bridge or on it.

Notice that the conjunctive OR is the separating point between these two main conditions. If both conditions were necessary, the rule would use the conjunctive AND to imply this.

1. In the first condition all that is necessary is that the unit actually be on the bridge. - This is no different than in every other scenario where the condition to claim a Temporary Medal Objective a unit must occupy or literally be on the hex.

2. In the second condition, we see it actually does use the conjunction AND to infer that in the second conditon two things must be occurring for it to apply:
A. The unit must be in an adjacent hex.
B. There are no enemy units in any hex adjacent to the bridge or on it.

So if you have a unit adjacent to the bridge and your opponent also has a unit adjacent to the bridge than YOU do not have uncontested control and neither does your opponent. You are both close enough to be "contesting" the bridge. However if your opponent is actually ON the bridge you do not have uncontested control, even though your unit is adjacent, but your opponent does, because he is actually ON it. He is fulfilling the first condition of having UNCONTESTED CONTROL.

So I concur specifically with PhillWebb...the junior member
and also with Sam - who, it seems, is only describing the particulars of the SECOND condition with the use of the word "and".
Laughing Laughing Laughing

Merry Christmas everyone!!!!!!

[Updated on: Thu, 24 December 2009 12:42]

      
longbearder
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Re:Market Garden OL bridges Thu, 24 December 2009 14:44
sam1812 wrote on Thu, 24 December 2009 03:09

The scenario notes say, "A bridge is under uncontested control when a unit is on the bridge or in an adjacent hex AND there are no enemy units in any hex adjacent to the bridge or on it."

I read that AND as a way to separate two conditions that must both be met.

The bridge and six hexes surrounding it comprise a zone of control around the bridge. You must have at least one unit in that zone, AND your opponent may not have any units in that zone. If the opponent had any units in the zone, the control would not be uncontested.

That sounds like your second option.


I agree with sam too. That's how we play it.
      
clexton27
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Re:Market Garden OL bridges Thu, 24 December 2009 16:10
I am starting to see your point on this, that the clause should divide at the AND.

"A bridge is under uncontested control when a unit is on the bridge or in an adjacent hex

AND

there are no enemy units in any hex adjacent to the bridge or on it."

Embarassed

[Updated on: Thu, 24 December 2009 16:18]

      
Achtung Panzer
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Re:Market Garden OL bridges Thu, 24 December 2009 20:20
stevens wrote on Thu, 24 December 2009 15:10

I am starting to see your point on this, that the clause should divide at the AND.

"A bridge is under uncontested control when a unit is on the bridge or in an adjacent hex

AND

there are no enemy units in any hex adjacent to the bridge or on it."


I've always understood it and played the rules this way, even if literally that's not how they are written.

The above from Stevens certainly makes the bridges the focii of the scenario and means that they will probably change hands several times duing the game. Exactly what's required! Very Happy

      
Freeloading Phill
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Re:Market Garden OL bridges Fri, 25 December 2009 00:26
I can see the strength of the AND as a divider.

I think we were reading the sentence as having two dividers - the or and the AND - and seeing the strength of the AND as connecting the two parts either side of it while the or divided at a higher level.

Sort of ( x ) or ( y AND z).

It's easy to do if you start with the usual objective control rules in mind and read it as adding an additional way to control a bridge without being on it.

It does seem to make more sense in the scenario that there be no enemy units nearby while you bring reinforcements across the bridges.

Phill
      
sam1812
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Re:Market Garden OL bridges Fri, 25 December 2009 00:48
Hi, Phil --

I was hoping to avoid the Boolean stuff, but I guess it's okay to use such language in this crowd.

"A bridge is under uncontested control when a unit is on the bridge or in an adjacent hex AND there are no enemy units in any hex adjacent to the bridge or on it."


It's ... (A or B) AND (C or D)

[Updated on: Fri, 25 December 2009 18:39]

      
clexton27
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Re:Market Garden OL bridges Fri, 25 December 2009 03:30
Uncle - I was wrong and I repent forthwith!!!!

Embarassed Embarassed Embarassed
      
tank commander
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Re:Market Garden OL bridges Fri, 25 December 2009 04:49
stevens wrote on Thu, 24 December 2009 21:30

Uncle - I was wrong and I repent forthwith!!!!

Embarassed Embarassed Embarassed



lol

We had a pretty good back and forth on this during our game and had me doubting myself a bit there. You were a good sport during our game (as always) and I enjoyed playing against you.

As to the rules, we are all wrong on these from time to time -- been there many a time myself.

Thank you Sam -- had to google that "Boolean" stuff. I may have seen that way back in HS. But if i did, it was washed from my mind long ago Laughing So, I learned (or perhaps relearned) something new today Very Happy

[Updated on: Fri, 25 December 2009 04:53]

      
rasmussen81
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Re:Market Garden OL bridges Fri, 25 December 2009 08:43
It looks like you guys figured this one out on your own. Very Happy Laughing Nice job!

I have a theory that I want to put out there...I think that often times when questions like this come up, there is one player (and it's been me before) who knows they are probably wrong but can make an argument for their initial point of view. The discussion begins, points are made on both sides, other players weigh in with their thoughts, and we all have fun talking about the rule or situation in question. But eventually the player who knew their theory was probably wrong, admits to himself and the other players that he was probably wrong.

I enjoy this process and I've been on the receiving end of this process before (with stevens, even). The one thing I would request is that we don't run to Richard for help too early in the process. Smile

There are times (and questions) where we need official clarification, but recently I've seen an increase in what my wife likes to call "First Down Punts". (For those of you who don't know much about American football, a team has 4 'downs' to move the ball 10 yards. If they can't get 10 yards after their first 3 downs, teams usually 'punt' or kick the ball away. A first down punt means that the team gets the ball and doesn't even try...they just kick it away). Razz

So I would ask that we try to muddle our way through questions together before calling for help from Richard or DoW. If we get to the end of our ropes and still don't think we've figured it out, we can look for clarification but let's do our level best first. Smile

Thanks, everyone, for helping make this such a fun game and a fun community to be part of. Merry Christmas! Cool
      
Vulch
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Re:Market Garden OL bridges Fri, 25 December 2009 10:58
sam1812 wrote on Thu, 24 December 2009 00:09

The scenario notes say, "A bridge is under uncontested control when a unit is on the bridge or in an adjacent hex AND there are no enemy units in any hex adjacent to the bridge or on it."



Just read this thread with interest.

I think the majority have the correct view. The AND is a divider, the OR is not.

For the OR to be a divider it would require a comma before the OR.

There is an invisible comma before any AND.

So say the sentence to yourself, with a pause (of 2 marching paces) before the AND. Then imagine the comma before the OR and put a pause in there. It changes the whole tense of the sentence.

Good discussion Very Happy
      
Freeloading Phill
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Re:Market Garden OL bridges Sat, 26 December 2009 05:12
sam1812


"A bridge is under uncontested control when a unit is on the bridge or in an adjacent hex AND there are no enemy units in any hex adjacent to the bridge or on it."


It's ... (A or B) AND (C or D)


I think you're right but I still don't think the sentence is that cut and dried and obvious in the way you've stated it.

Our group had 6 people read it and all come to the same (incorrect) conclusion. I believe it was the case of "oh it's the usual way of controlling a bridge or another way just for this scenario that needs the AND there to clarify how it works".

Information like that really needs to be written out very carefully and not rely on the reader knowing the correct way to interpret multiple nested "and" and "or" parts - especially when they appear to build on previous rules.

Still, in our game the Germans stopped the Allies cold so it didn't affect the outcome. Smile

Phill
      
    
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