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sam1812
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Retreating choices Thu, 04 February 2010 04:46
Okay, here's one that came up in a game last night.

I rolled two flags against my opponent's tank. The only way he could retreat the full two hexes would be to go into his right flank, where he would be unable to order it. He could retreat just one hex into the center section, but two units would block any further backward movement. (He was planning to play an Assault Center on the next turn, and had no Right cards.)

Is it permissible for him to retreat one hex into the center, and remove a figure for the second, blocked retreat? Or must he always retreat the full 2 hexes if that is possible?
      
rasmussen81
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Re:Retreating choices Thu, 04 February 2010 06:15
The base rule book, page 10, talks about the retreating rules. There's nothing in there that says you have to chose a certain retreat path or that all flags must be resolved with movement. The player can always choose between two hexes. If one of those choices results in a dead end, and therefore loosing a figure, that's his choice.

So your opponent would be allowed to move his tanks into the center and loose a figure, if he wanted to.

[Updated on: Thu, 04 February 2010 06:16]

      
sam1812
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Re:Retreating choices Thu, 04 February 2010 06:19
That's what we thought.

Thanks.
      
rasmussen81
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Re:Retreating choices Thu, 04 February 2010 06:28
I think the key is that both flags have to be resolved in some way. As long as the unit moves one hex -OR- loses a figure because it can't move, the rules are being followed. Cool
      
stevens
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Re:Retreating choices Thu, 04 February 2010 12:28
I strongly disagree.

If there is a clear path to retreat based on the number of flags thrown, you may not "Choose" to lose figures instead of taking the open path, simply because it is to your advantage to stay in a certain section.

P.10 of the original rule book states:
Quote:

If a unit cannot retreat; is forced to retreat off the limits of the
battlefield; or would be pushed back onto a sea hex, one figure must be
removed from the unit for each retreat move that cannot be completed.


The reality is that if the unit CAN retreat, he must. It is not optional to choose not to retreat and lose figures.

If there had been two attacks, and on the first attack your opponent had thrown (1) flag and you had retreated to a place with no further movement possible, then a second attack with another flag would cause you to lose figures instead of retreating. However if there is a way open, even if not to your advantage and (2) flags are thrown in a single battle action you must go the open route.

Think of this situation. I am attacking my opponent in close assault. There are two hexes behind me. One is blocked by another one of my units and the other is clear. My opponent plays an "AMBUSH". I choose to take the hits and attack back because the retreat to one side was blocked. Does this make sense. Is this a play that you would not object to.

[Updated on: Thu, 04 February 2010 13:17]

      
rasmussen81
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Re:Retreating choices Thu, 04 February 2010 15:07
stevens wrote on Thu, 04 February 2010 03:28


Think of this situation. I am attacking my opponent in close assault. There are two hexes behind me. One is blocked by another one of my units and the other is clear. My opponent plays an "AMBUSH". I choose to take the hits and attack back because the retreat to one side was blocked. Does this make sense. Is this a play that you would not object to.


In your example, the rules are very clear. If you can retreat to an open space you must go to that open space instead of choosing to lose a figure. But in Sam's example the unit did retreat...but then couldn't retreat the second hex. Players get to choose where they want to retreat one hex at a time...even if that gets them into trouble later on.

The question becomes whether two flags from the same attack are resolved one at a time (which I believe is the case) or as a lump movement (which you seem to believe). Rolling Eyes
      
Hawkmoon von Köln
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Re:Retreating choices Thu, 04 February 2010 15:34
I think you're right, Jesse.
When we are playing Ancients, we can choose our retreating hex and sometimes lose some figs if it's more interesting (like Sam said) for our next turn.
I think that each hex has to be crossed separately when multiple flags are rolled against an unit.
Greetings from Le Mans and sorry for my poor english. Cool
      
Nightrain
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Re:Retreating choices Thu, 04 February 2010 17:59
in a case with only one flag, i'm sure that you have to retreat to an open path, but in a case with two flags, i believe you have to execute the first flag, and then execute the second flag, so if you pick an open path on your first flag, but then you have to lose a figure on the second flag, i guess that's still legal, but this might be an interesting addition to the next FAQ, jesse might need some more effort lol
      
Achtung Panzer
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Re:Retreating choices Thu, 04 February 2010 18:21
Flags (retreat) are not Grenades (destroy) so a retreat should always be the priority outcome when a Flag is rolled. Taking one hex at a time with a two Flag roll, you should retreat to an open i.e. non-occipied and passable terrain rather than choosing to stay put and lose a figure.

Retreats are not ordered withdrawals, they mean your troops are moving away from the action by the shortest route, not one chosen by their commanders. Frustrating, but that's war.

That's how I play it but I mostly play solo so I don't have that many arguments! Razz

      
rasmussen81
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Re:Retreating choices Thu, 04 February 2010 18:58
Achtung Panzer wrote on Thu, 04 February 2010 09:21

Flags (retreat) are not Grenades (destroy) so a retreat should always be the priority outcome when a Flag is rolled. Taking one hex at a time with a two Flag roll, you should retreat to an open i.e. non-occipied and passable terrain rather than choosing to stay put and lose a figure.

Retreats are not ordered withdrawals, they mean your troops are moving away from the action by the shortest route, not one chosen by their commanders. Frustrating, but that's war.

That's how I play it but I mostly play solo so I don't have that many arguments! Razz



You said they have to retreat the shortest route, but either hex option is going to be the shortest! Then the next hex option is going to be the shortest...and on and on.

I'm not clear on which interpretation you believe. Are you saying that the unit should retreat the full 2 hexes if it can? Or are you saying the unit should simply retreat...and if it runs into a blocked hex that's their bad luck? Rolling Eyes

      
Achtung Panzer
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Re:Retreating choices Thu, 04 February 2010 21:34
A free hex should take preference over a blocked hex where a figure would be lost instead. It really is only an issue with multiple flag roles where a choice of direction may occur.

On the whole I'm against players having too much choice for the consequences of battle outcomes, so purposefully losing a figure rather than retreating into a free hex following a flag role doesn't seem right to me.

Hope you see where I'm coming from on this original question of "gamesmanship":

Is it permissible for him to retreat one hex into the center, and remove a figure for the second, blocked retreat? Or must he always retreat the full 2 hexes if that is possible?
      
Nightrain
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Re:Retreating choices Sat, 06 February 2010 03:58
i think this will still need an official ruling from the referee Very Happy
      
stevens
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  Re:Retreating choices Sun, 07 February 2010 16:30
I think you are correct Steve.
This is a question which must have a clear answer. I personally would prefer that the unit have to retreat as far back as possible and not get to lose figures as an option to fully retreating. The opposite position has some obvious strategic advantages which Sam outlined in the original question; keeping your unit in play and also closer for a counter-attack. However, if the rule is to be the other way, so be it! Nevertheless, a clear decision on this rule is very important so that we can all play by the same rule.
      
eric
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Re:Retreating choices Sun, 07 February 2010 20:09
You have to retreat as far as you possibly could (in other words, evaluate all the flags rolled at once, and pick any of the retreat paths that give you the MOST retreat hexes).

One easy way to remember is to think of it this way: if you didn't had too, then in theory even with a single flag rolled against a unit with 1 retreat hex blocked and the other open, then you could choose to NOT retreat and lose 1 figure instead. That isn't the case.

Eric @ DoW

[Updated on: Mon, 08 February 2010 02:27]

      
stevens
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Re:Retreating choices Sun, 07 February 2010 20:14
Dear Eric,
Thanks for your prompt and clear response.
      
Achtung Panzer
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Re:Retreating choices Sun, 07 February 2010 21:50
eric wrote on Sun, 07 February 2010 19:09

You have to retreat as far as you possibly could (in other words, evaluate all the flags rolled at once, and pick any of the retreat paths that give you the MOST retreat hexes).

On easy way to remember is to think of it this way: if you didn't had too, then in theory even with a single flag rolled against a unit with 1 retreat hex blocked and the other open, then you could choose to NOT retreat and lose 1 figure instead. That isn't the case.

Eric @ DoW


That's what I was trying to say. Thanks for the ruling Eric.
      
rasmussen81
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Re:Retreating choices Sun, 07 February 2010 21:52
Good to know. I'll include this in the FAQ for the next version. Stevens, thanks for posting this so nicely on the FAQ thread. That will make it easy to include in the file. Cool
      
sam1812
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Re:Retreating choices Sun, 07 February 2010 22:09
Thank you, as always, Eric.
      
Nightrain
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Re:Retreating choices Mon, 08 February 2010 02:15
Thank you Eric Cool
      
GreatDane
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Re:Retreating choices Mon, 08 February 2010 16:44
Glad to see that the publisher agrees with how I have been playing for years! Cool
      
    
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