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Antoi
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Tiger tank rules Mon, 08 February 2010 08:16
I've just bought the Tiger in the snow expansion and playtested it solo.

I must say the tiger tanks are great units, although they just come with a single Figure.

Throughout the playtesting I came up to the following situation.
A Tiger tanks retreat was cut by two enemy Infantery unit. One of the unit rolled a flag against the tiger tank so the tank could nog retreat. The flag scores a hit following the basic rules.
Am I correct to say that this flag also gets a reroll in the search of a Grenade to finish of the tiger?
      
ad79
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Re:Tiger tank rules Mon, 08 February 2010 08:27
The flag would be re-rolled and you need a grenade on the re-roll.

This because a flag would be a hit if the Tiger can't retreat.

Stig Morten
      
Antoi
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Re:Tiger tank rules Tue, 09 February 2010 19:31
Thanks!

then my next observation. Since I read everything about Memoir on the web I see, I watched the review of Tom Vassal of Tigers in the snow. In this Review he says that killing a tiger tank is a one 1 of 18 chance, so 5,5%
But thats when you roll one die. if you role 3 dice the chance increases to 15%.
The chance to destroy a regular armor unit in one turn with 3 dice is 5%.
So.... you have a bigger chance of destroying a tiger in one turn than a regular unit. Ofcourse: the chance of killing a regular unit increases every time (you probably kill one or two figures the first time) you shoot on it, whil the stay the same with the tiger.

(Edit: Ofcourse in this example I use 3 dice and this ammount chances every turn, but stay with me with this example...)

If my calculation are correct (in fact they are the calculation of a colleage) I wonder if the tiger tank is that powerfull....

Of am is missing something here????

[Updated on: Tue, 09 February 2010 19:33]

      
tank commander
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Re:Tiger tank rules Tue, 09 February 2010 21:58
I saw another post where someone figured, that on average, it would take 18 shots to kills a Tiger (18 shots should equal 6 hits should equal one grenade and a kill I guess?).

This is opposed to an average of 9 shots to kill a regular tank unit.

Of course, one could not kill a regular tank unit with one or two rolls and this is possible vs a Tiger, although very unlikely.
      
rasmussen81
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Re:Tiger tank rules Tue, 09 February 2010 22:34
There's always the chance that someone will get lucky and destroy the Tigers early in the battle, but generally they just keep getting lucky...with hits the first time through but not the second roll! Smile

When you played with them, did they feel weak and easy to hit? Or are you just asking if they are statistically easy to hit?
      
Antoi
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Re:Tiger tank rules Tue, 09 February 2010 22:56
rasmussen81 wrote on Tue, 09 February 2010 22:34

There's always the chance that someone will get lucky and destroy the Tigers early in the battle, but generally they just keep getting lucky...with hits the first time through but not the second roll! Smile

When you played with them, did they feel weak and easy to hit? Or are you just asking if they are statistically easy to hit?


When i Played with them the first time, I got some feeling of power. The mighty Tiger tank who's killing everything on his path. when I threw some calculating in it, it seem that statisticly you get an 15% chance of killing a tiger with 3 dice. To me that was a little disapointing.
Even with one die you can get a lucky shot, so every attempt gives some tension.

The calculation of 1 out of 18 is when you role one die. If you roll more the chances are increasing ofcourse.
      
rasmussen81
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Re:Tiger tank rules Tue, 09 February 2010 23:08
Antoi wrote on Tue, 09 February 2010 13:56


When i Played with them the first time, I got some feeling of power. The mighty Tiger tank who's killing everything on his path. when I threw some calculating in it, it seem that statisticly you get an 15% chance of killing a tiger with 3 dice. To me that was a little disapointing.
Even with one die you can get a lucky shot, so every attempt gives some tension.

The calculation of 1 out of 18 is when you role one die. If you roll more the chances are increasing ofcourse.


There is always the off chance that your enemy will get lucky with a single shot, but that's the nature of the beast! Very Happy

In my experience, the Tigers are a force to be afraid of! I've even tried to throw tons of units at Tiger units just to see all my units destroyed while the Tigers got one lucky roll after another! Laughing Personally, I love the Tigers... Cool
      
nemesszili
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Hauptmann

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Re:Tiger tank rules Wed, 10 February 2010 09:34
In our game crew, we last played Saint-Aignan de Cramesnil, and killing Tigers this time was not only optional, but it was necessary to win! Ferocious tank battles ensued, and the Allies to gain some extra medals, often targeted infantry instead of the Tigers (the Axis didn't have this option). Wittmann in 2 matches (out of 3), once killed by a single re-roll die!

Tigers a really fun to play, but Tigers in the Snow needs some changes to make it more balanced... if the Axis could bring the Tigers to the center, they are certain to win.
      
Antoi
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Re:Tiger tank rules Wed, 10 February 2010 09:49
rasmussen81 wrote on Tue, 09 February 2010 23:08




In my experience, the Tigers are a force to be afraid of! I've even tried to throw tons of units at Tiger units just to see all my units destroyed while the Tigers got one lucky roll after another! Laughing Personally, I love the Tigers... Cool


Don't get me wrong, I too love my tiger tanks. The size of them alone spreads fear among my enemies Laughing

The great thing about them ofcourse that every time the enemy fails in destroying a tiger they're right back where they started..... So every failure of destoying a tiger leads to nothing, while attacking a regular armor unit, a hits makes it easier to finish off the unit next round.

Quote:

Tigers a really fun to play, but Tigers in the Snow needs some changes to make it more balanced... if the Axis could bring the Tigers to the center, they are certain to win.


When I was solo playing, in the german turn I always used one card to bring my tigers to the centre. this worked very good. The Russian player was vanished when the tigers arrived (well teh russian player did not have so many good cards, that helpt to Very Happy )
      
nemesszili
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Re:Tiger tank rules Wed, 10 February 2010 09:51
I played that one solo as well! Very Happy
      
Achtung Panzer
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Re:Tiger tank rules Wed, 10 February 2010 15:31
nemesszili wrote on Wed, 10 February 2010 08:34

Tigers a really fun to play, but Tigers in the Snow needs some changes to make it more balanced... if the Axis could bring the Tigers to the center, they are certain to win.


I wonder whether using the Air Rules is the answer to balancing the Tigers? It was certainly true in reality.
      
JWRockets
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Re:Tiger tank rules Wed, 10 February 2010 15:41
I was watching the military history channel a while back. I don't remember exactly which show it was. They were interviewing a pilot and he stated how they dealt with Tigers. They would either strafe the fuel tank that the Tigers had to tow behind them or skip the bullets off of the roads and into the bottoms of the tanks because of the lack of armor there.
      
Mighty Jim 83
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Re:Tiger tank rules Wed, 10 February 2010 17:55
I guess the trick is to hope your opponent doesn't spend too much time working out the odds.

Throughout history, there have been many elite troops who did as much damage by their reputations as by their fighting. Whether it's by avoiding your Tigers, or trying to take them out early on, chances are that having them in play will enable you to make them fit their battle-plan round yours, rather than simply having their own.
      
tank commander
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Re:Tiger tank rules Thu, 11 February 2010 08:02
JWRockets wrote on Wed, 10 February 2010 09:41

I was watching the military history channel a while back. I don't remember exactly which show it was. They were interviewing a pilot and he stated how they dealt with Tigers. They would either strafe the fuel tank that the Tigers had to tow behind them or skip the bullets off of the roads and into the bottoms of the tanks because of the lack of armor there.


Curious, I never hear of any tank towing fuel tanks behind them. I know that some Soviet armor had fuel drums strapped onto their sides. The possible dangers of such a practice one can only image.

As to skipping bullets off a road surface (and I assume we are talking about hard surfaced roads --paved or other wise) I wonder how often this would work. One might think that a bullet would lose a lot of its energy after skipping off a hard surface.

As it the thinner armor plate on the bottom of a Tiger - I think it may have had at least 1/2 inch or 12.5mm there -- I guess it is feasible that such a plate may not stop a .50 cal round from penetrating.

I would think a much more viable tactic (and one which I know was used) was to strafe the rear of the tank into the engine deck. The armor in this area was thin too and an engine fire would often result from these types of attacks.
      
tank commander
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Re:Tiger tank rules Thu, 11 February 2010 22:13
[quote title=tank commander wrote on Thu, 11 February 2010 02:02
Curious, I never hear of any tank towing fuel tanks behind them. [/quote]


I have to amend this. I now remember some pictures of German tanks (Mk IIIs or IVs I believe) towing two wheeled trailers behind them and these did have extra supplies including fuel drums on them. This was for the opening moves of Operation Barbarossa, when large distances were expected to be covered. So the panzers units carried as many supplies as possible.

Of course this was when the Luftwaffe owned the skies. I do not know of the Germans continuing this practice outside of Russia in 1941. With the ever-growing threat of Allied ground attack aircraft later in the war, I doubt they would still haul around extra fuel in this manner.



      
JJAZ
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Re:Tiger tank rules Thu, 11 February 2010 23:01
Of course this was when the Luftwaffe owned the skies. I do not know of the Germans continuing this practice outside of Russia in 1941. With the ever-growing threat of Allied ground attack aircraft later in the war, I doubt they would still haul around extra fuel in this manner.


I read a book about the battle of the ardennes in '44 the Germans hoped to attack and capture the allies fuel depots to keep moving in the direction of Holland and pushing back the allies.
      
nemesszili
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Re:Tiger tank rules Fri, 12 February 2010 09:28
And Peiper just missed a fuel dump 1 kms away... KG Peiper just passed next to it, without knowing about its existence! (Hitler has forbidden all recon missions previous the battle, so the Germans didn't know the position of the fuel dumps)
      
Antoi
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Re:Tiger tank rules Wed, 24 March 2010 13:13
Antoi wrote on Wed, 10 February 2010 09:49

rasmussen81 wrote on Tue, 09 February 2010 23:08




In my experience, the Tigers are a force to be afraid of! I've even tried to throw tons of units at Tiger units just to see all my units destroyed while the Tigers got one lucky roll after another! Laughing Personally, I love the Tigers... Cool


Don't get me wrong, I too love my tiger tanks. The size of them alone spreads fear among my enemies Laughing

The great thing about them ofcourse that every time the enemy fails in destroying a tiger they're right back where they started..... So every failure of destoying a tiger leads to nothing, while attacking a regular armor unit, a hits makes it easier to finish off the unit next round.

Quote:

Tigers a really fun to play, but Tigers in the Snow needs some changes to make it more balanced... if the Axis could bring the Tigers to the center, they are certain to win.


When I was solo playing, in the german turn I always used one card to bring my tigers to the centre. this worked very good. The Russian player was vanished when the tigers arrived (well teh russian player did not have so many good cards, that helpt to Very Happy )


I've played the scenario a fwe times now (with real opponents Very Happy ) and must say its a balances scenario. Dont be afraid of using 3 cards every turn and make sure you move your tigers to the middle every turn.. once in the middle the tigers will do some serious damage..


      
    
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