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xfoley96
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Medal objective in Valchevriere Tue, 23 March 2010 02:16
Just played Valchevriere in the Vercors campaign. Had to take out an infantry on Herboully, which was my 7th medal, in order to capture it. Does this mean the battle was a draw, since Herboully was technically my 8th medal? Or can I still count it as a win?
      
rasmussen81
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Re:Medal objective in Valchevriere Tue, 23 March 2010 02:35
xfoley8 wrote on Mon, 22 March 2010 18:16

Just played Valchevriere in the Vercors campaign. Had to take out an infantry on Herboully, which was my 7th medal, in order to capture it. Does this mean the battle was a draw, since Herboully was technically my 8th medal? Or can I still count it as a win?


I'm not sure if this will fully answer your question, but check the FAQ page 3. It talks about when the game is over...and your battle would be over the instant you get the correct number of medals. So if I understand what happened correctly, you destroyed a unit and took ground into the city in effect getting two medals in one turn. The game would have been over as soon as you eliminated the unit to get the last needed medal...you don't have a chance to take ground into the town.

I hope this helps. Cool
      
Nightrain
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Re:Medal objective in Valchevriere Tue, 23 March 2010 03:00
there's no such thing as draw in Memoir 44

check out which conditions here met your situation :
1. if your opponent (Allies) got 6 medals before you grabbed the objective, you lose
2. if you got 6 medals (Axis) but haven't got the objective, you have to keep playing, and if you got the objective before your opponent reached 6 medals, you win, otherwise, you lose

that's all Smile
      
Nightrain
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Re:Medal objective in Valchevriere Tue, 23 March 2010 03:01
the only draw happened when you play a map by switching sides, and usually count up the figures killed, and totally even out, but usually there's a tie-breaker, like in the ladder play, the higher seeded player wins the draw, and in the tournament, before playing, you got to draw a random number, and the higher number wins the tie.
      
stevens
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Re:Medal objective in Valchevriere Tue, 23 March 2010 03:09
Steve and I have played this campaign, and he is correct, there is no draw. If your opponent (the Allies) obtained 6 medals before you captured the town medal, you lost. You only win if your opponent has less than six medals and you have at least 7 medals including the medal from the town. You cannot win without the medal from the town no matter how many medals you have.
      
xfoley96
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Re:Medal objective in Valchevriere Wed, 24 March 2010 00:01
Hmmm... conflicting responses here. Indeed, the unit on Herboully was my 7th medal, and I took ground to get the town (my 8th medal)- my opponent only had 3 medals. So the question remains- did the game end when I took 7 medals (and I can't claim it as a victory), or would it end at 8, when I took the town? The scenario rules specifically state that I don't win unless I take the town hex, so if the battle ends at 7 medals, it would be a draw (I wouldn't think my opponent could claim victory at 3 medals). If not, then I won with 8 medals.

I wonder if jdrommel could chime in?
      
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Re:Medal objective in Valchevriere Wed, 24 March 2010 02:35
In your case, the battle ended when you took the town. Consider the "7-medal" as a minimum in this case; you must have captured the town hex and have at least 7 medals too.
      
stevens
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Re:Medal objective in Valchevriere Wed, 24 March 2010 03:27
I don't think there is anything conflicting here:
Your opponent had to have 6 medals to win and he didn't he only had 3.
You had to have at least 7 medals to win including the town hex. Your victory has 2 conditions. (1) You need at least seven medals, and (2) you must possess the town hex. You did, you had 8 medals which was at least 7 and you also had the town hex. I think you looking at the conditions of victory a little too literally in assuming that capturing seven medals ends the game.

Quote:

Conditions of Victory:
Axis player: 7 Medals, including the Medal token of "Ferme d'Herbouilly" which is a Permanent Medal Objective that the Axis player must capture in order to win the game.

Allied player: 6 Medals.



You may have a different goal to reach to win than your opponent, however, whomever reaches their goal first wins.

You reached your goal first. You won.

If you had killed off all of your opponents men and had still not captured the town, you still could not win. It is a condition of victory. The rule does not say you may only take 7 medals and one of the seven must be the town. Nor does it say you must take exactly 7 medals.

Congrats on your victory! The game ended when you captured the town and had at least 7 medals.

[Updated on: Wed, 24 March 2010 03:32]

      
Nightrain
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Re:Medal objective in Valchevriere Wed, 24 March 2010 03:28
remember the map is a 6 medals map, so the game ended in 6,

in your case, since your opponent got only 3, and you got 7th including the town, then you win, but it didn't counted as 7 medals victory, but only 6 (the maximum) Smile



      
ad79
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Re:Medal objective in Valchevriere Wed, 24 March 2010 08:02
I think you are wrong on this one. Steve.

In the campaign you tally up the medals when deciding the total, so all the medals he earned would count.

The victory condition isn't a maximum level of medals you can earn. It is just the number of medals you need to win.
So he would count all 8 medals for his campaign total.

I played this campaign a few weeks ago, and with the total tied after four scenarios, I had to take a different strategy in the "Battle for the Passes" scenario.

That has the same victory conditions as Valchevriere. Axis needs 6 medals with atleast one of them the town hex beyound the Passes.
After my initial advance towards the town was pushed back, I started to pick of French units that tried to attack me. (I had pulled back.) I managed to elliminate 9 French units before he got his 6th medal. So the scenario score was Allies 6 and Axis 9.
But since I hadn't taken the town hex, I hadn't fullfilled my victory cinditions and thus the winner of the scenario was the French player. But total score for the campaign was 29-27 in my(Axis) favour.

Stig Morten

[Updated on: Wed, 24 March 2010 08:04]

      
stevens
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Re:Medal objective in Valchevriere Wed, 24 March 2010 13:07
Hey Steve, I think you may be thinking about another scenario. The maximum score in the Battle of Valchevriere for the Allies is 6, but the maximum score for the Axis is 7.

Quote:

Conditions of Victory:
Axis player: 7 Medals, including the Medal token of "Ferme d'Herbouilly" which is a Permanent Medal Objective that the Axis player must capture in order to win the game.

Allied player: 6 Medals



Dear Stig,
Don't want to change history here on your campaign score, however, I actually wrote a note to Jacques (Rommel) regarding the scoring in the Vercors Campaign, since it seems a good strategy for the Axis to actually kill off all the Allies before taking the town objectives. Sure, it's a great idea, free points! However, Jacques said that for this scenario, 7 was the maximum score the Allies could get despite how many killed unit medals they grabbed in the process. So when scoring this scenario and any other with double conditions, the medal count listed in the VICTORY CONDITIONS is the total possible score for that side.

This is something that probably should end up in the FAQ. However, since I don't know if this type of situation occurs in many non campaign scenarios, Jesse may wait to handle it when doing an FAQ for the Campaign Book(s). I can hear him now saying, "What have I gotten myself into!" Laughing

And if you all you guys on the forum can find some of these multiple condition victory conditions scenarios in the Official Listings, it might be a good idea to start a new thread and list them so Jesse won't have to look long and hard for all the exceptions. Thanks!

[Updated on: Wed, 24 March 2010 13:28]

      
ad79
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Re:Medal objective in Valchevriere Wed, 24 March 2010 13:31
stevens wrote on Wed, 24 March 2010 13:07

Dear Stig,
I actually wrote a note to Jacques (Rommel) regarding this particular scenario, since it seemed a good strategy for the Axis to actually kill off all the Allies before taking the town. Sure, it's a great idea, free points! However, Jacques said that 7 was the maximum score the Allies could get despite how many medals they grabbed in the process. So when scoring this scenario and any other with double conditions, the medal count listed in the VICTORY CONDITIONS is the total possible score for that side.

This is something that probably should end up in the FAQ. However, since I don't know if this type of situation occurs in any non campaign scenarios, Jesse may wait to handle it when doing an FAQ for the Campaign Book(s). I can hear him now saying, "What have I gotten myself into!" Laughing


Hi Stevens.

I didn't know this. Seems to me to be an odd ruling, just put in to play to prevent gamesmanship like I employed. I think I should be rewarded for every unit I kill.
But I will play by the rules as Jacques wrote them.

This same situation occurs in "Breakthrough to Gembloux". The scenario that came pre-printed on the Campaign Bag map.
In that scenario the Germans need 12 medals and atleast one of them needs to be the medal for the first unit exited through the exit hex.
I think in that case it was noted that the Germans could get more that 12 medals and still lose the scenario if they haven't exited any units.
I don't know how people tally up the score for those scenarios.

But I think it is odd that you don't get credit for the units you elliminate. Why have a victory conditions that involves unit kills, when you can only get a limited amount of medals from it.

The victory conditions for the Germans should be: Capture the town for the win. Capturing the town is worth 7 bonus points. You will score no medals for elliminating units, since the town is the important thing.
Allied victory conditions: 7 medals. French player gains 1 medal for every german unit elliminated.

Just my opinion.

Stig Morten
      
stevens
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Re:Medal objective in Valchevriere Wed, 24 March 2010 13:36
Stig, I understand your angst. But I could see clearly when the game began that all the Axis has to do is kill, kill, kill and pad his score. Since the Campaign series is intended to have you actually try to take objectives to do well and because the total score in the end is cumulative, it makes sense to limit this type of behavior and encourage a broader strategy. I am certain this was the motivation for this ruling.

When figuring out how to balance a campaign for scoring, many things are put into place. This scoring limit is just one of them.

When Steve and I played he laid back as the Axis and would not come over the mountains, I had to run banzai charges over the mountains as the French to score points. probably ahistorical, but I eventually won because he did not capture the objectives.

Steve if you are listening, I hope I was kind when I killed.
Laughing

[Updated on: Wed, 24 March 2010 13:46]

      
ad79
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Re:Medal objective in Valchevriere Wed, 24 March 2010 14:05
Good points and I understand why it was done because otherwise the best strategy for the Germans is to hang back and wait for the French player to advance.

I initially tried to advance trough the mountains, but it became a deadly path and I had to reevaluate my strategy and saw that i could take the campaign win by elliminating more than 7 French units.
Had I been aware of this ruling at the time, I would not have used that strategy, but instead tried a second wave through the mountains.

But the scenarios are very good and I have played the campaign twice, and enjoyed it as both sides.

Hopefully we get scenarios that involve the Resistance in the Brekthrough kit.

Other than that I think Jesse soon needs to stat his FAQ on the campaign system, or is he waiting for Volume 2 before he starts?

He can say: What have I gotten my self into? as much as he like, we still want the Campaign Book FAQ! Very Happy

Stig Morten
      
xfoley96
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Re:Medal objective in Valchevriere Wed, 24 March 2010 20:42
Thanks for all the comments guys. The general consensus I'm reading is that you can only count 7 medals towards Victory Points, but it may take more than 7 medals to win playing the Germans if you don't take the town as one of the first 7, and there is no 'sudden death' if the Germans reach 7 medals before taking the town. Makes sense to me. Smile
      
stevens
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Re:Medal objective in Valchevriere Thu, 25 March 2010 02:13
Bingo!

Hey thanks for asking questions and getting us chatting. You never know how the conversation may turn and what good will come of it.
      
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Re:Medal objective in Valchevriere Thu, 25 March 2010 02:41
hi Paul haha you're right, I was thinking of the last map we played which is Battle of the Passes lol because they're so similar that i had to wait before the mountain to lure you out lol
      
Shnik
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Re:Medal objective in Valchevriere Thu, 25 March 2010 03:57
ad79 wrote on Wed, 24 March 2010 08:31

But I think it is odd that you don't get credit for the units you elliminate. Why have a victory conditions that involves unit kills, when you can only get a limited amount of medals from it.

The victory conditions for the Germans should be: Capture the town for the win. Capturing the town is worth 7 bonus points. You will score no medals for elliminating units, since the town is the important thing.
Allied victory conditions: 7 medals. French player gains 1 medal for every german unit elliminated.

Just my opinion.

Stig Morten


Well, that wouldn't work if you lose the game, where you'd score 0 points instead of the number of units you killed. Or if you manage to capture the town while having killed less than 6 units, where you'd have to keep the town until you have killed sufficient enemy units using the regular rules.

Besides, the strategy to advance slowly and kill enemy units one by one is still a viable one, as that means less opposition when you actually do try to capture the town. You're just capped at 7 medals.

stevens - The one question I'm wondering about - what happens if the Germans kill seven or more units, and the French still win? Do the Germans count as having 7 medals, or are they capped at 6 (since they didn't win)?
      
stevens
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Re:Medal objective in Valchevriere Thu, 25 March 2010 12:18
I think based on what Jacques stated, that if the Germans had 7 or more medals, but without the town, they would still score 7 medals but not score the win. You have to remember that in that campaign if the Allies win they get 2 bonus victory points and if the Axis win, they get 1 bonus victory point. So the actual final scoring for that scenario with the Allies at 6 medals and the Axis at 7 would be:

Allies 6 + 2 (victory points) = 8 points
Axis 7 + 0 (victory points) = 7 points

So you have to think more than just about kills but victories as well since victory points also come into the equation.

And in fact, the reason I won the campaign as Allies is because I won both scenarios where 2 victory points were given for the win. This was a 4 point swing in my favor. This scoring bonus for the Allies was a clever way to force the Axis to do more than just sit back or kill off everyone.

Thanks JDRommel for an excellent campaign!!
      
Justinian
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Re:Medal objective in Valchevriere Wed, 07 April 2010 01:56
Somewhat off-topic, but how many units does the paratroop action in massacre at vassieux involve. (if axis wins previous battle).
I assumed one.
      
stevens
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Re:Medal objective in Valchevriere Wed, 07 April 2010 17:22
Player 593714:
The Vercors Campaign guide states
Quote:

During the next scenario, you may attempt ONE paradrop action (Actions 20 - Paradrop), at the start of your second turn of play.


I would assume since it states ONE paradrop action it means 1 figure dropped. Who if he is successful becomes one full fighting unit. In this scenario anymore figures would be excessive.
All other reinforcements allowed are only ONE unit as well. This is how I would play it.
      
Justinian
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Re:Medal objective in Valchevriere Thu, 08 April 2010 00:06
I made the same assumption, but jsut wanted to be sure.
Thanks. Razz
      
    
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