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sam1812
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Marines - Behind Enemy Lines Sun, 11 April 2010 06:45
This one actually came up in two games today.

When the Marines order two units on Behind Enemy Lines, should the first unit do its after-move before the second unit battles? Or should both units battle before doing their after-moves? Or, similar to planes and other units moving, should it be the player's choice?

The rules and the FAQ appear to be silent on this question.
      
ad79
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Re:Marines - Behind Enemy Lines Sun, 11 April 2010 07:55
I don't know what Richard or DOW has to say about the matter, but BEL has a second movement phase included so I would say.
1. Move both units.
2. Battle, take ground with both units.
3. Move both units.

This question is also valid for all nations when you use the "Infiltrators" card from the Combat Deck if you use it when ordering more than one unit. Does the unit ordered by "Infiltrators" do its extra move after all the units has battled? I would say yes.

Stig Morten
      
nemesszili
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Re:Marines - Behind Enemy Lines Sun, 11 April 2010 08:50
The situation would be only valid with "Infiltrators" card, if Marines are engaged in a street fight.

By the way, is the +1 order bonus available when using Combat Cards, if Marines are the Allies?
      
ad79
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Re:Marines - Behind Enemy Lines Sun, 11 April 2010 09:04
nemesszili wrote on Sun, 11 April 2010 08:50

The situation would be only valid with "Infiltrators" card, if Marines are engaged in a street fight.


Why?
"Infiltrators" are just like BEL.

Are you sure you are not talking about "Rattenkrieg" that let's one ordered unit move 3 hexes and must end on a building hex and still may battle?

nemesszili wrote on Sun, 11 April 2010 08:50


By the way, is the +1 order bonus available when using Combat Cards, if Marines are the Allies?


I doubt it. The Marine +1 order bonus is only for Command Cards.

Stig Morten
      
nemesszili
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Re:Marines - Behind Enemy Lines Sun, 11 April 2010 09:25
I see it now, that you were talking the procedure when moving and battling with more than 1 unit.
Ordering more than 1 unit in case of BEL is only available with Marine rules on, and only 1 unit in case of Infiltrators.

I guess you're right about no bonus with Combat Cards; that would give the Allies a big advantage!
      
stevens
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Re:Marines - Behind Enemy Lines Sun, 11 April 2010 18:15
I see some clever strategy coming from your question Sam.

Like using the first BEL Marine to trap an enemy unit as the second comes in for his attack and then slinking off after licking his lips for his cleverness.

And so what you are asking is - do they act in a parallel fashion, both mirroring the others move-battle-move. Or do the act independently and one performs his entire move-battle-move action prior to the other unit beginning his move-battle-move action. A great question I think. And as you say it is obviously not addressed in the Rules. So I would say that the attacker gets to decide how to play it.

The Dice interpretation in the FAQ=
"it is the attacker's interpretation that prevails"

      
rasmussen81
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Re:Marines - Behind Enemy Lines Mon, 12 April 2010 03:51
stevens wrote on Sun, 11 April 2010 09:15

I see some clever strategy coming from your question Sam.

Like using the first BEL Marine to trap an enemy unit as the second comes in for his attack and then slinking off after licking his lips for his cleverness.


As usual, Stevens makes a good point with his interpretation and it makes sense to me. I don't know that this will come up very often, but when it does it would make sense to know what to do.

I'll check with Richard on this question and include it in the next FAQ version. So clever, gentlemen, so clever! Very Happy
      
stevens
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Re:Marines - Behind Enemy Lines Mon, 12 April 2010 04:03
Sam,
Since this came up in your games, I was wondering how you and your opponent decided to handle it. And as a follow up, how do you think it effected the outcome?
      
sam1812
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Re:Marines - Behind Enemy Lines Mon, 12 April 2010 04:52
Great question, Stevens. It first came up in Wake Island, and we played by the interpretation that you could do the battles and after-moves in any sequence. I did use one unit to block the hypothetical retreat path of a Japanese infantry, though there were no retreats. (It was IJA, after all.) My Marines came close to winning the game, for unrelated reasons.

It came up later in Bloody Ridge, where I decided where to move my first unit based on the outcome of the second unit's battle.
      
ad79
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Re:Marines - Behind Enemy Lines Mon, 12 April 2010 07:28
nemesszili wrote on Sun, 11 April 2010 09:25

I see it now, that you were talking the procedure when moving and battling with more than 1 unit.
Ordering more than 1 unit in case of BEL is only available with Marine rules on, and only 1 unit in case of Infiltrators.




Only 1 unit can be ordered by the "Infiltrators" card, and I doubt it that Marines get to order extra units with the "Combat Deck".

My question about "Inflitrators" is about a situation where you use (for example) an "Attack" card in one section, and one of those units are also given the "Infiltrators" card. Now you move all 3 units, battle with all 3 units, but my question is: Do you do the extra movement available with the "Infiltrators" right after that unit have battled or after all 3 units has battled?

Same as BEL and Marines as noted.

Stig Morten
      
stevens
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Re:Marines - Behind Enemy Lines Wed, 14 April 2010 13:50
The answer regarding the use of the 2 Marine Units with the BEL card is probably simpler than we think.
I have been reviewing the various rule manuals for different expansions and finally went back to the basic rules.
From p.7 of the Original Rules Manual:

Quote:

Movements are announced and made sequentially, one ordered unit at a time, in the sequence of your choice. A unit may only move once per turn. A unit that is ordered does not have to move.
You must complete one unit's movement before beginning another. In addition, you must complete all unit movements before proceeding to Battle (step 4).


And so as clever as we would like to be moving and battling and then moving and battling again, the simple rule is that - you must complete all unit movements before proceeding to Battle.

It would seem that both Marine units complete their first move, then both Marine units complete their battling including the taking of ground if possible (according to the attacker's choice of which unit battles first) and then each in it's own turn complete it's secondary move.

[Updated on: Wed, 14 April 2010 13:54]

      
ad79
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Re:Marines - Behind Enemy Lines Wed, 14 April 2010 14:16
A very nice summary of the rules, stevens.

I think this is the correct way to do it. If only I had remembered to order the extra unit as the marines yesterday. Sad
Lost the Tenaru scenario 6-5 without ordering the extra unit a SINGLE time throughout the scenario. Well, my bad.

Stig Morten

[Updated on: Wed, 14 April 2010 14:17]

      
sam1812
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Re:Marines - Behind Enemy Lines Thu, 15 April 2010 00:57
stevens wrote on Wed, 14 April 2010 07:50

And so as clever as we would like to be moving and battling and then moving and battling again, the simple rule is that - you must complete all unit movements before proceeding to Battle.

It would seem that both Marine units complete their first move, then both Marine units complete their battling including the taking of ground if possible (according to the attacker's choice of which unit battles first) and then each in it's own turn complete it's secondary move.

I read that as meaning that the Movement phase must be completed before the Battle phase begins. I don't see any implication there that the Battle phase must be completed before the beginning of an After-move phase.

In fact, if that's the relevant rule, I would interpret it to mean that the first unit's after-move would need to be done before the second unit battles, in order for all movement to once again be completed.
      
ad79
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Re:Marines - Behind Enemy Lines Thu, 15 April 2010 08:32
sam1812 wrote on Thu, 15 April 2010 00:57

stevens wrote on Wed, 14 April 2010 07:50

And so as clever as we would like to be moving and battling and then moving and battling again, the simple rule is that - you must complete all unit movements before proceeding to Battle.

It would seem that both Marine units complete their first move, then both Marine units complete their battling including the taking of ground if possible (according to the attacker's choice of which unit battles first) and then each in it's own turn complete it's secondary move.

I read that as meaning that the Movement phase must be completed before the Battle phase begins. I don't see any implication there that the Battle phase must be completed before the beginning of an After-move phase.

In fact, if that's the relevant rule, I would interpret it to mean that the first unit's after-move would need to be done before the second unit battles, in order for all movement to once again be completed.


While I think the movement phase and battle phase needs to be completed as Stevens said, I also thinks that the after-move phase needs to be a separated phase. So both move, both battle and if relevant takes ground, then both move again.

I don't think the rule from the basegame can give us a valid answer, as that rule was written when this wasn't an issue. The Marines had not been released, so at that time, there was no possibility of ever getting in this situation.

I think we need an official answer to this issue.
And the question is:

Is the after-move on BEL a separate phase or part of the battle phase?

A simple yes or no to that question would give us a clear understanding of how BEL and Marines are handled, or when to do the after-move with the INFILTRATORS card.

Stig Morten
      
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Re:Marines - Behind Enemy Lines Thu, 15 April 2010 11:57
Call it what you will, but the 3 hexes that a BEL ordered Infantry may move after battling is still movement.

The way I have always played it is, move both units in any order,resolve battles and take ground one unit at a time, move both units in any order.

I would be surprised that an official ruling would differ from that.
      
    
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