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R2-C4
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Exiting off the board Mon, 05 September 2005 17:47
I was just wondering how everyone plays the scenarios like #26 - Ardennes (Bastonge Corridor East), in how do you play exiting off the board. Do you....

(A) Exit the board instantly when you land on the hex with the medal.

or

(B) You have to move off the board from the medal on to an 'invisible' hex.


I have been playing it as option B, but i wanted to see how everyone else is playing such scenarios.
      
TommieSL
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Re:Exiting off the board Mon, 05 September 2005 17:52
Looking at what the Victory Conditions state:-

"An Axis unit that exits off the Allied side of the battlefield from a medal hex counts as one victory medal."

The answer is... (B)
      
R2-C4
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Re:Exiting off the board Mon, 05 September 2005 18:04
Yeah, that is how we have been playing it. I just wanted to make sure that we were playing it right. Thanks for the reply.

      
TommieSL
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Re:Exiting off the board Mon, 05 September 2005 18:15
No prob. BUS

Always happy to help.
      
CptJack
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Re:Exiting off the board Mon, 06 September 2010 00:00
Instead of creating a new thread, I thought that I'd just tag this on to an old one:

In scenario 4241 (Escape via the Coastal Road) there are Exit Markers on the last road hex at each side of the board. If an Allied unit is on the Exit Marker and is forced to retreat, can the unit exit off the board (for a medal), or, would it be forced to retreat to an on-the-board hex, or, in the case of the left Exit Marker, would it lose a figure? The rules state that through these hexes "a unit may successfully exit the map to safety and/or claim a Victory Medal"; however, as the retreat would not be in the direction of the presumed next (off-board) road hex, I thought I'd ask for some opinions.

Thanks! Smile

http://www.daysofwonder.com/memoir44/en/memoire_board/?id=4241
      
sam1812
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Re:Exiting off the board Mon, 06 September 2010 01:35
I seem to recall this question coming up before, regarding a scenario that had an exit hex in somebody's own back row, and the answer being that you had to exit on your move, and normal retreat rules applied to flags.

However, I can't find any such posting when I search for it, and there's nothing about exit hexes in the FAQ. So I can't prove whether or not this is correct.
      
JJAZ
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Re:Exiting off the board Mon, 06 September 2010 12:43
I think the half hexes or not used (in the normal board) therefore a retreat would be to the left and the full hex.
only as i see it Smile
      
Jaykay2010
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Re:Exiting off the board Mon, 06 September 2010 13:14
JJAZ wrote on Mon, 06 September 2010 12:43

I think the half hexes or not used (in the normal board) therefore a retreat would be to the left and the full hex.
only as i see it Smile




Ignoring half hexes makes sense ... (they are always treated as impassable on a single board) ... however, you say a "retreat would be to the left" ..?

Retreats are spaces moved 'backwards' toward your end of the board are they not? My understanding is that you cannot retreat to the left or to the right (ie horizontally), only backwards.

In the scenario shown above, (No 4241), a retreat flag would effectively mean forcing a unit off the road, (ie down) but not off the board (ie to the right or left). Therefore NO exit?

(A flag rolled against would result in a loss of a single unit for the lower left exit space)

What do others think?
      
CptJack
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Re:Exiting off the board Mon, 06 September 2010 13:19
I started to go through all the official scenarios that use Exit Markers and found three of interest (i.e., they contain situations in which a unit might exit via retreat) before I stopped my search.

1. Beda Fomm (46A - Airpack)
2. Night Withdrawal (4089 - Campaign Book V.1)
3. Dunkirk (4525 - Campaign Book V.1)

While I couldn't find any discussion in this forum about my question, I did eventually find something related in the Landing Craft (LC) Evacuation Rules for "Dunkirk":

"A LC may be targeted by the enemy but is only destroyed by a grenade. It may ignore 1 flag. Each LC that leaves the map because of a flag counts as an eliminated unit and is a medal for the Axis player."

Assuming that Dunkirk exit rules apply to #4241 so that the exiting player cannot -- via forced retreat -- preserve his unit and collect a medal, can then the attacker force a unit off the board through an Exit Marker(as in Dunkirk) and thereby collect a medal? If so, one flag could effectively eliminate a four-figure unit. Or do we give the unit intending to leave the board via the Exit Marker the ability to ignore the first flag (as in Dunkirk)?

As a LC (along with the transported unit) in Dunkirk is eliminated by a Grenade roll only, should regular land units (on Exit Markers) that are attacked with flag results be treated differently?

I see a number of possibilities (I'm not trying to be exhaustive):

1. The unit is forced off the board with a second flag (the first must be ignored), is eliminated, and the attacker gets a medal. This would match Dunkirk's LC rules, but it ignores the difference between a land unit that can take 1-4 hits and a LC that can take but one. Secondarily, in Dunkirk, the Germans have no reasonable way of cutting off the Allied escape by interposing themselves between the unit and the Exit Marker. In Beda Fomm, for example, the Allies had already cut off the Italian escape at setup.

OR

2. The unit must ignore the first flag and is reduced by one figure per additional flag. This seems more reasonable, but one must still wonder why the unit can't just exit? After all, that is its objective! The attacker tried to eliminate the unit and simply chased it off the board (toward its baseline) with its fire. To those who would argue that it's not fair to have attacker to get punished in this way I would gently remind them that flags sometimes work against attackers, e.g., the retreat may prohibit given Fire Fight orders, the retreating unit may take an objective hex and win the game, etc. Why should this be treated differently?

OR

3. The unit must retreat to an available on-the-board hex. Again, why would a unit retreat off its Exit Marker to a vulnerable on-the-board position when it can retreat off-the-board to safety toward its baseline via the Exit Marker? This makes no sense.

OR

4. The unit can exit and win a medal. This would seem to be in conflict with Dunkirk, but seems to make eminent sense to me for reasons already stated above.

Finally, if the unit is not permitted to retreat via exit, I can't help but imagine what radio communications between the unit and HQ would have been:

HQ: 22nd Armoured Brigade, come in!

22nd: 22nd Armoured Brigade, over!

HQ: 22nd Armoured Brigade, immediately withdraw westerly down the Coastal Road, over!

later...

22nd: HQ, we're under heavy fire but are just now ready to leave enemy fire range, over!

HQ: What's that??? 22nd!!! You're under attack and you're fleeing? It's just not cricket to pull out now! Even if those were your orders! You must wait until the attack stops --even if it kills you! If you want that medal for saving the rest of the Brigade you'll have to let Gerry get a proper shot at you first! Over! Laughing

22nd: (Booming sounds followed by static)



[Updated on: Mon, 06 September 2010 14:21]

      
CptJack
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Re:Exiting off the board Mon, 06 September 2010 14:16
As I understand it:

The half-hexes are normally unusable because only full hexes are considered to be part of the board, and also perhaps because their terrain is not specified; but, for purposes of LOS are conservatively considered to be potential obstructions (See FAQ, Line of Sight, page 5). They are, however, not inherently impassable like some terrain. In Overlord scenarios half-hexes may be joined with another board's half-hexes to form usable full hexes. (Also, Armor Breakthrough rules (Campaign Book) allow a player to deploy armor units from an Opponent's baseline. This would of necessity require theoretical movement through a half-hex to reach the first full board hex.)

Apart from Exit Marker rules, the half-hexes (or off-the-board full hexes) would never be "entered". However, Exit Markers create a doorway to off-the-board hexes and half-hexes. The EM rules do not specify which direction the exiting unit must take and there are always two or three directions possible depending upon what side of the board the Exit Marker appears. On the baseline sides of the board, a unit may only exit onto a half-hex. Therefore, whether the off-board hexes are full or half does not seem to be pertinent.

Ultimately, the question comes down to, "Can retreats be used for purposes of exiting a unit through an Exit Marker to save the unit and collect a medal?"

A further question to my previous long post might be:

Could a multiple hex retreat be used to move onto the Exit Marker and then leave the board? Again, the Exit Marker rules do not dictate the direction that unit must move off the board, and the retreat rules merely require that the unit retreat toward its baseline.

      
sam1812
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Re:Exiting off the board Mon, 06 September 2010 14:37
Whoops -- I should have read the question a bit more closely. I didn't realize the question about "Escape Via the Coastal Road" was asking about the exit hex on the right, too.

A unit absolutely can't retreat off the board from the right-side exit hex. Those half-hexes are not part of the game -- they block LOS, planes can't enter through them, etc. On a different thread about retreats a few months ago, Eric definitively stated that if a unit has an available retreat path equal to the full number of flags, it must take that retreat -- it can't choose to stand its ground and take hits.

So, the only question is about the back-row exit hex on the left.

The LCs at Dunkirk have scenario-specific rules, created by jdrommel for the specific situation. Unlike normal LCs, they're only hit with a grenade, so they're harder to kill. (Otherwise, it would be too easy to destroy an LC with a 1-fig infantry inside.) And unlike normal LCs, they ignore the first flag. So, CptJack, your reasoning is interesting and admirable, but Dunkirk is such a special case that it wouldn't make sense as a precedent for ignoring a flag.
      
Jaykay2010
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Re:Exiting off the board Mon, 06 September 2010 14:55
So was i right? Rolling Eyes
      
CptJack
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Re:Exiting off the board Mon, 06 September 2010 16:48
sam1812 wrote on Mon, 06 September 2010 08:37

A unit absolutely can't retreat off the board from the right-side exit hex. Those half-hexes are not part of the game -- they block LOS, planes can't enter through them, etc. On a different thread about retreats a few months ago, Eric definitively stated that if a unit has an available retreat path equal to the full number of flags, it must take that retreat -- it can't choose to stand its ground and take hits.



Sam, I believe that this is the thread and comment to which you refer:

http://www.daysofwonder.com/en/msg/?goto=184818#msg_184818

In it Eric said: "You have to retreat as far as you possibly could (in other words, evaluate all the flags rolled at once, and pick any of the retreat paths that give you the MOST retreat hexes).

"One easy way to remember is to think of it this way: if you didn't had too, then in theory even with a single flag rolled against a unit with 1 retreat hex blocked and the other open, then you could choose to NOT retreat and lose 1 figure instead. That isn't the case."


As I read the discussion in that thread, the issue seemed to be whether one can choose a retreat path that does not allow a complete retreat because the path is blocked. The present situation is different in this way: First, the retreat is not blocked by anything --not even the half-hexes or the edge of the board. The Exit Marker is clearly an unobstructed doorway off the board's edge. If one were to argue otherwise, then how could any unit ever use it? Does the doorway only stay open during one's own turn and even then close for Ambush effected retreats? Second, in Night Withdrawal the exit is on the baseline and it is therefore impossible to exit to anything other than a partial-hex and in Beda Fomm the Exit Marker and the road lead directly onto a half-hex. Again, I see Exit Markers as superseding any off board restrictions; that seems to be intrinsic to their nature.

sam1812 wrote on Mon, 06 September 2010 08:37


So, the only question is about the back-row exit hex on the left.

The LCs at Dunkirk have scenario-specific rules, created by jdrommel for the specific situation. Unlike normal LCs, they're only hit with a grenade, so they're harder to kill. (Otherwise, it would be too easy to destroy an LC with a 1-fig infantry inside.) And unlike normal LCs, they ignore the first flag. So, CptJack, your reasoning is interesting and admirable, but Dunkirk is such a special case that it wouldn't make sense as a precedent for ignoring a flag.



I would still maintain that the question has not been answered for either hex as I do not see that there is anything blocking the unit's exit from the board via the Exit Marker. I interpret the Exit Marker rules as indicating that the doorway off the board (via the Marker) is always open for the scenario-specified beneficiary. Naturally, if DoW or Richard Borg ruled that one can't retreat off the board through an otherwise legally available Exit Marker, then I would be happy to follow that ruling. Smile

I agree completely with your scenario specific assessment. Given that you had recalled having read something about my question in a forum discussion and that Dunkirk was the closest thing that I could find to answering it, I thought that I would try to show that it was different from the three scenarios that I referred to in a prior post in this thread. Obviously, I incorrectly connected Dunkirk with what you had said. Rolling Eyes

I have a tendency to get a bit wordy, if you hadn't noticed!
Embarassed

Greg

(Capt. Jack is my daughters' disloyal and cowardly terrier. He was obviously misnamed! Maybe I should change my "name".)
      
JJAZ
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Re:Exiting off the board Mon, 06 September 2010 18:48
I ment the left bottom hex , sorry.
      
clexton27
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Re:Exiting off the board Mon, 06 September 2010 19:45
I know I am coming late to the discussion, but I hope my comments will be helpful.

There is NEVER any lateral retreating!!!
All retreating is towards your own lines, regardless of the units' relative position on the board.

Regarding the idea of using an opponent's FLAG die as a forced retreat to exit the board. This is not permissible. Exiting the board is an OFFENSIVE action which can only be performed by giving the Exiting unit an Order on your turn, not your opponents turn. If the opponent, on his turn, throws a die with a FLAG against your unit on the backline, then unless you are in terrain that allows you to ignore a FLAG, you will lose one figure for each flag tossed. This enables your opponent the opportunity to kill off your unit before you are able to exit and thus the possibility of both scoring a medal and preventing a medal from being scored.
      
sam1812
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Re:Exiting off the board Mon, 06 September 2010 19:56
Hi, Greg --

Yes, you found the comment by Eric that I was referring to. We both agree that it's not precisely the same situation, and that the rule book and FAQ don't give specific, explicit guidance. So, in the absence of something official, what's the most applicable precedent?

Retreat is very different from movement. You can retreat through towns and forests, you can retreat across more than two hexes of beach, retreats don't detonate mines, and an interdicted unit may retreat out of interdiction.

A unit that's on a road on its back row can't normally retreat off the board. If that changes when it's on an exit hex, I don't think that's ever been stated anywhere.

I've been wrong before, and you're welcome to see this differently from me, but based on my reading of the available information, I'd play it that a unit can't retreat off the board for an exit medal, unless the scenario notes specifically permit it.

(Jaykay: Yes, you're basically correct, though of course it would be the loss of one figure, not one unit. And JJAZ, whose comment you were responding to, is an experienced player who knows you can't retreat straight to the side. He would have been talking about retreating diagonally to the left, rather than diagonally to the right.)
      
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Re:Exiting off the board Mon, 06 September 2010 19:59
stevens wrote on Mon, 06 September 2010 13:45

Regarding the idea of using an opponent's FLAG die as a forced retreat to exit the board. This is not permissible. Exiting the board is an OFFENSIVE action which can only be performed by giving the Exiting unit an Order on your turn, not your opponents turn.

I see we were typing at the same time, and you were quicker.

Do you have a citation for this? I couldn't find one, and evidently, Greg couldn't either.
      
Jaykay2010
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Re:Exiting off the board Mon, 06 September 2010 21:00
Thanks guys ... that's been a helpful discussion .. Cool

The citation for the legal exiting off the board as described by stevens above is most helpful ... I wonder if this should be added to the FAQ ? It certainly makes most sense and is easy to interpret.
      
clexton27
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Re:Exiting off the board Mon, 06 September 2010 21:16
Hey Sam,
I have been looking like you for the reference to this rule as I know it has appeared before. If we can't find it, then I guess an official ruling will be in order.

I might have seen this on Boardgamegeek????

I did, I did, I did see it on Boardgamegeek!
Shocked Shocked Shocked

http://www.boardgamegeek.com/thread/560908/exit-markers

Just need to find out if Stig knows where the reference is.

[Updated on: Tue, 07 September 2010 00:00]

      
CptJack
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Re:Exiting off the board Tue, 07 September 2010 14:43
Stevens,

I appreciate your input in this discussion. Just for clarification, I wasn't suggesting that a retreat off the board would be anything but towards one's own baseline. Exit Marker's on the side edge of the board permit one to exit off the board with the rules not specifying which off-the-board hex one must exit onto. I was simply suggesting that one could avail oneself of the use of the off-the-board hex that does, in fact, lead toward one's baseline.

In searching this forum, website, rules, scenarios, FAQ, etc. the only reference I could find to retreats limiting "offensive actions" was in the card compendium relative to armor retreating onto wire. http://www.daysofwonder.com/memoir44/en/content/cards_compen dium/?id=terrain_15 The compendium states that armor is prohibited from removing wire during a retreat as it would be considered an "offensive action". While this may not be what anyone was thinking of, I found no other related references that address both retreats and offensive action.

To my thinking, retreating is simply moving toward one's baseline whether the unit stays on the board or moves through an Exit Marker to an off-the-board hex. In Firefight card retreats, the unit retreating might find itself with the option of retreating to a hex adjacent to a unit ordered in the Fire Fight instead of retreating to a hex away from enemy units. To me this would be an "offensive action" with the retreating unit deliberately interfering with an enemy's ability to engage him or any other unit. The rules (in the FAQ) allow the retreating unit to do this however, perhaps in the interest of rules simplicity. The present situation might be ruled upon with an interest toward simplicity as well, but which way???

I, too, would be interested to know Stig's reference. If Stig doesn't have a solid reference, then I think we should get a ruling.

_________________

Sam,

I've been wrong quite a few times, but I am generally corrected by the FAQ! But, sometimes there are no direct answers apart from DoW or Richard Borg.

In this case I'm really just trying to find out what the designer intended the rules to be. In M44's battle abstraction, what makes sense to you or me may be in conflict with designer intentions -- and that's fine. I just want to know if the unstated/implied rules allow or prohibit retreating through Exit Markers. To me it makes logical sense (in real life and within the game), but so does removing wire on armor retreats and determining mine casualties on retreats. (And just how many games have I sold??? Embarassed )

See if you can raise Battalion HQ on the radio and get an answer...

      
RBorg
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Re:Exiting off the board Thu, 09 September 2010 22:43
In the scenario, Escape via the Coastal Road, we gave the British units the option to exit the board to gain Victory Medals. The intent was that these units would be ordered and then be moved off the battlefield via either Exit hex to gain the Victory Medal.

As pointed out by stevens - There is NEVER any lateral retreating!!!
All retreating is towards your own lines, regardless of the units' relative position on the board.

The short answer therefore, as it follows the above rule, is that a British unit may not retreat off the battlefield and gain a Victory Medal.

Richard Borg
      
Sgt Storm
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Re:Exiting off the board Fri, 10 September 2010 00:05
RBorg wrote on Thu, 09 September 2010 16:43

In the scenario, Escape via the Coastal Road, we gave the British units the option to exit the board to gain Victory Medals. The intent was that these units would be ordered and then be moved off the battlefield via either Exit hex to gain the Victory Medal.

As pointed out by stevens - There is NEVER any lateral retreating!!!
All retreating is towards your own lines, regardless of the units' relative position on the board.

The short answer therefore, as it follows the above rule, is that a British unit may not retreat off the battlefield and gain a Victory Medal.

Richard Borg


That answers the question for that particular scenario, which was pretty obvious anyway, since it is not set up to allow retreating into the exit in the proper direction.

However, maybe I misunderstood the gist of this thread, I thought the open question was how to deal with the situation where the direction of exit is backwards towards the retreating unit's baseline, and hence exit on retreat has the potential to be a legal move, depending on how exit and retreat are "supposed" to work. If that situation is in place, that is, the exit is on the unit's baseline, then can the unit exit on retreat or must the unit be issued an order first to exit for a medal?

I would expect the former, that the unit can retreat and it is up to the attacker to cut-off escape routes properly when attacking. But that is just my opinion.

[Updated on: Fri, 10 September 2010 00:05]

      
ad79
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Re:Exiting off the board Fri, 10 September 2010 09:02
stevens wrote on Mon, 06 September 2010 21:16

Hey Sam,
I have been looking like you for the reference to this rule as I know it has appeared before. If we can't find it, then I guess an official ruling will be in order.

I might have seen this on Boardgamegeek????

I did, I did, I did see it on Boardgamegeek!
Shocked Shocked Shocked

http://www.boardgamegeek.com/thread/560908/exit-markers

Just need to find out if Stig knows where the reference is.


Hey, I am sensing some misstrust here. Laughing

I didn't see this post earlier and had to dig through boardgamegeek.com to find my reference.

http://geekdo.com/article/5125227#5125227

Entry by brummbar44 on boardgamegeek when the question came up regarding his "Nightwithdrawal" scenario from the Normandy Campaign.

But if Richard or DOW says otherwise I'll edit my entry on boardgamegeek.com.

Are there any other (official) scenarios that has this situation?

Stig Morten
      
sam1812
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Re:Exiting off the board Fri, 10 September 2010 12:56
Stig, I trust you as well as I trust myself, and I ask myself for proof or evidence, too.
      
clexton27
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Re:Exiting off the board Fri, 10 September 2010 15:35
Hey Stig!

Good find! And I must say that I trust you as much as I trust myself. Laughing

Anyway I think the SPIRIT of the rule should be that exits that score medals are an offensive action and retreats from flags should not allow movement off the board.

But until someone says otherwise that is how I will play it.

Twisted Evil
      
ad79
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Re:Exiting off the board Fri, 10 September 2010 18:46
stevens wrote on Fri, 10 September 2010 15:35

Hey Stig!

Good find! And I must say that I trust you as much as I trust myself. Laughing


sam1812 wrote on Fri, 10 September 2010 12:56

Stig, I trust you as well as I trust myself, and I ask myself for proof or evidence, too.


Were those comments meant to reasure me? Laughing

I think it's only fair to ask for reference when we are talking about rules question.

Stig Morten

      
clexton27
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Re:Exiting off the board Fri, 10 September 2010 19:03
I agree with you 100%

It is always best to not only ask, but also to provide a reference. Otherwise simply state that it is your opinion or how you like to play.

Stig - I appreciate all your efforts in this forum and also in Boardgamegeek. Please don't think that I would ever have anything but respect for your comments and your faithful service to others.

      
Achtung Panzer
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Re:Exiting off the board Fri, 10 September 2010 19:30
stevens wrote on Fri, 10 September 2010 14:35

Anyway I think the SPIRIT of the rule should be that exits that score medals are an offensive action and retreats from flags should not allow movement off the board.


This came up in an earlier thread about retreating units onto a medal objective hex to gain a medal. I agree with you 100%, medals can only be gained in your own turn.
      
clexton27
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Re:Exiting off the board Fri, 10 September 2010 19:56
I don't know that there was ever any official ruling on retreating onto a hex with an objective medal and actually capturing that medal on the defense. If you have a reference that would be great. Even the link to the other discussion would be helpful.
My personal opinion (and that is all it is) is that in this case, you could actually get a medal while on the defense.

But let's see what others have to say on this one.
      
CptJack
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Re:Exiting off the board Fri, 10 September 2010 21:30
Stevens,

Here is a discussion of a game that ended with a retreat onto an objective hex.

http://www.daysofwonder.com/en/msg/?goto=192265#msg_192265

Hope this helps.
      
    
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