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rasmussen81
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Will People Play Fair? Mon, 04 October 2010 05:25
Hey everyone,

Open Beta is coming and I am really looking forward to having other players to compete with and new friends to make on Memoir '44 Online. I think this computer version of the game will be extremely popular and very successful. Cool

I was, however, just reading some posts on the Ticket to Ride forum and it made me start thinking...

I guess in TTR online there are players who will stall (not play on their turn) until the computer system kicks them out of the game and then they'll join back up and stall again until their opponent gets fed up and leaves the game, allowing them to play a bot and get "free" or easy points.

First of all, that would be so frustrating!! Second of all, are players going to use this strategy in Memoir '44 Online? Will people find other ways to get "easy" wins that are just as lame? Will there be a way to block the players who do this from joining our games?

I'm really just thinking outloud here...so all thoughts are welcome!
      
Caboose
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Re:Will People Play Fair? Mon, 04 October 2010 23:40
Sadly Ras, there are people out there who "forget" it is a game and wish to "protect" their precious rank points (which mean nothing!) and will do anything to make sure they don't lose them.

Obviously it would be much easier if there were no such rank points since there would be nothing to protect.

That being said, if a person wishes to stall, there really is only 2 recourses - 1 is that you leave and 2 is to make the staller leave (since we are talking about a 2 person game here for M44 and not multiplayer overlord games).

Sadly, I wish DoW would implement a staller stat that would be also visible and you would see what I be talking about on TtR games. Sure there might be some stats that are not correct (due to actually their internet and/or connection going down to the game), but if they reconnect back up into such game, there should be no penalty.

Since I wasn't in the M44 beta, the only thing I can ask (and hopefully tested) is the following - one of the players disconnects and gets replaced with a bot. Does the bot "stall" for a while before making a move (to allow for the other player to get back)? I presume Brice has implemented such an item - but just want to make sure.

Cab
      
rasmussen81
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Re:Will People Play Fair? Tue, 05 October 2010 08:38
Caboose wrote on Mon, 04 October 2010 14:40

Since I wasn't in the M44 beta, the only thing I can ask (and hopefully tested) is the following - one of the players disconnects and gets replaced with a bot. Does the bot "stall" for a while before making a move (to allow for the other player to get back)? I presume Brice has implemented such an item - but just want to make sure.

Cab


To be honest I don't know if this feature is included in the game. I haven't been disconnected from the game since the first week of testing so I haven't had to try this! It would be something to look into.

Are you hoping that the bot will "stall" for a little bit just because the player needs to re-enter the game? Or is there another reason for the Computer to do this?
      
ad79
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Re:Will People Play Fair? Tue, 05 October 2010 11:06
Does the game counts towards your ranking if you finish it versus a bot?

Stig Morten

      
rasmussen81
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Re:Will People Play Fair? Tue, 05 October 2010 12:54
ad79 wrote on Tue, 05 October 2010 02:06

Does the game counts towards your ranking if you finish it versus a bot?

Stig Morten




I believe that in TTR online if you start the battle against a person and they leave, the game still counts toward your ranking. I assume it would be the same with Memoir '44 online but I don't know for sure.

I'm with Caboose in his statement that the rank means nothing...it's all about playing the game and having fun! Still, the rank is something to work at and I can see the draw it has on players. I just hope the draw doesn't spawn a lot of ways to get easy points at any cost!
      
ad79
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Re:Will People Play Fair? Tue, 05 October 2010 15:09
rasmussen81 wrote on Tue, 05 October 2010 12:54



I'm with Caboose in his statement that the rank means nothing...it's all about playing the game and having fun!


Sadly I think we are the minority on this issue. There is a ranking and it will mean something to a lot of people.
But I have confidence in DOW that they will have tools that avoid the TTR situation in Memoir 44 Online.

Stig Morten
      
Hydrommel
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Re:Will People Play Fair? Wed, 06 October 2010 00:02
Hi!
I'm not sure we have to be so pessimistics Confused

After all, I think that most of players are just wanting to have fun, playing M'44 with opponents all around the world, beeing part of a fearless Company of Players Very Happy

Anyway, I think that such a twisted way of playing would be rapidly identified by the community of players and nobody would accept to play with this pitiful person... Twisted Evil

Don't you think?
      
eric
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Re:Will People Play Fair? Wed, 06 October 2010 02:00
Yes, we are aware of the potential issues (though i think the nature of this game will diminish the likely hood of this happening as compared to a game like Ticket to Ride). In any case, this is something we will keep an eye on and address as need be.

eric
      
rasmussen81
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Re:Will People Play Fair? Wed, 06 October 2010 04:23
Hydrommel wrote on Tue, 05 October 2010 15:02

Hi!
I'm not sure we have to be so pessimistics Confused

After all, I think that most of players are just wanting to have fun, playing M'44 with opponents all around the world, beeing part of a fearless Company of Players Very Happy

Anyway, I think that such a twisted way of playing would be rapidly identified by the community of players and nobody would accept to play with this pitiful person... Twisted Evil

Don't you think?


You may be totally right that most players simply want to play the game and have a good time. That's what I'm looking forward to!

I agree that players who choose to 'stall' or come up with other lame ways of playing will be identified by the community and not accepted as opponents!! Good point. Razz

Eric, thank you for your support. It's true that Memoir '44 is a totally different game than TTR and will therefore not share the same issues with player interactions. I'm looking forward to Open Beta! Smile
      
Caboose
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Re:Will People Play Fair? Thu, 07 October 2010 07:21
rasmussen81 wrote on Tue, 05 October 2010 00:38

Caboose wrote on Mon, 04 October 2010 14:40

Since I wasn't in the M44 beta, the only thing I can ask (and hopefully tested) is the following - one of the players disconnects and gets replaced with a bot. Does the bot "stall" for a while before making a move (to allow for the other player to get back)? I presume Brice has implemented such an item - but just want to make sure.

Cab


To be honest I don't know if this feature is included in the game. I haven't been disconnected from the game since the first week of testing so I haven't had to try this! It would be something to look into.

Are you hoping that the bot will "stall" for a little bit just because the player needs to re-enter the game? Or is there another reason for the Computer to do this?


Yes there is a reason - to allow for reconnect of the player before the bot plays. Since there will be obviously a time delay on the "disconnect" player end before he/she could reconnect (i.e. a legit disconnect and the person wants to get back in ..i.e. might have to reboot the computer, etc). Brice should know the timeout delay for the bot.
      
Caboose
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Re:Will People Play Fair? Thu, 07 October 2010 07:30
ad79 wrote on Tue, 05 October 2010 03:06

Does the game counts towards your ranking if you finish it versus a bot?

Stig Morten



Since I'm not on the beta team, all I can say for a 2 player TTR game if you played with a player and then a bot, the game I do believe counts (based on memory here - been a while since I played online).

I know a 2p game started initially with a bot doesn't count on ranking.

but it would seem, based on the early beta reports, it seems the AI does have a wicked streak to it. Sure hope that keeps up.

The only bot change, and I have tried mentioning this to Brice, is maybe have some random name generator for the bot. Only reveal the true name of the bot at the end, since after a while, you can predict how the bot will play (definitely in TTR - I don't even bother playing with dumb bots if I'm just trying to have somewhat of a challenge).

Cab
p.s. As for "stallers" [well I guess more disconnectors than stallers] - remember sometimes it could be the player has a bad ISP [yes, hard to believe in this day and age, but if you look at where most of the good ISPs are, they do miss most of the middle section (namely northern part) of the US due to population]. But usually Karma [assuming that is still being used] can usually tell you those players. And just like any system, people will try to get around it - so there is no one true good system for every case! Sad
      
rasmussen81
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Re:Will People Play Fair? Thu, 07 October 2010 07:38
Hey Cab,

The Karma system is still in place so that will be an easy way to weed players out if you want to use it.

The bot is quite skilled and at this point there is only one AI personality that I know of. The developers could tell you more about his play style but most battles against him are quite tough. While it's true that we'll learn his style, Memoir '44 is a very different game than TTR and I don't think wins will ever be quite as easy against the bot.

I believe there are plans to create other AI personalities but I'm not sure on that one.
      
Caboose
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Re:Will People Play Fair? Thu, 07 October 2010 22:47
rasmussen81 wrote on Wed, 06 October 2010 23:38

Hey Cab,

The Karma system is still in place so that will be an easy way to weed players out if you want to use it.

The bot is quite skilled and at this point there is only one AI personality that I know of. The developers could tell you more about his play style but most battles against him are quite tough. While it's true that we'll learn his style, Memoir '44 is a very different game than TTR and I don't think wins will ever be quite as easy against the bot.

I believe there are plans to create other AI personalities but I'm not sure on that one.


Sorry - Had to laugh - I wonder how many times I've heard that - they'll make new AI bots for TTR (or a bot application maker program!).

So I do hope there will be some variety (doesn't have to be initially) at some point down the road. Since any AI personality can be easily "tracked" on what it will do and thus one can try to minimize it.

Cab
      
eric
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Re:Will People Play Fair? Fri, 08 October 2010 03:00
Caboose wrote on Thu, 07 October 2010 13:47

Since any AI personality can be easily "tracked" on what it will do and thus one can try to minimize it.

Cab



Sorry but that statement is patently false, except in the simplest cases. So while it might hold true for the current T2R bots it is definitively wrong for the Gang of Four bot for instance - not only is "tracking" its behavior nigh impossible for a human being, there's actually a good reason for why that isn't the case in the way it was coded in the first place.

      
rasmussen81
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Re:Will People Play Fair? Fri, 08 October 2010 05:28
Speaking as someone who has played against Johnny (the bot in Memoir '44 Online) over 100 times in all of the official base game scenarios, I can say that I haven't figured out his playing style enough to predict his next move.

There are games where he is quite aggressive but generally I find that he plays the percentages (not unlike human players) and he will attack the targets where he has the best chance of hits. Games against Johnny have not become boring or easy wins...so give it a chance before judging it based on the Ticket to Ride bot. Smile They may be brothers, but Johnny is much more mature. Laughing
      
Funlerz
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Re:Will People Play Fair? Fri, 08 October 2010 16:30
About stalling players, and I am not sure if this all the easy to implement, but couldnt there be a way to tell if a player lost connection? I have seen it in other online games, and if this would be put it, you could also "ban" a player (probably not the whole game, just for the rest of the game he/she stalled in) if it wasnt a legitimate disconnect, since the game would know if the player actually disconnected or just stalled.
      
ad79
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Re:Will People Play Fair? Fri, 08 October 2010 22:29
Funlerz wrote on Fri, 08 October 2010 16:30

About stalling players, and I am not sure if this all the easy to implement, but couldnt there be a way to tell if a player lost connection? I have seen it in other online games, and if this would be put it, you could also "ban" a player (probably not the whole game, just for the rest of the game he/she stalled in) if it wasnt a legitimate disconnect, since the game would know if the player actually disconnected or just stalled.


I think this will be very difficult too handle.

Would the program be able to see if my internet connection failed or if I switched of the wifi on the laptop?
The result would be the same. Disconnection.

Stig Morten
      
eric
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Re:Will People Play Fair? Fri, 08 October 2010 23:28
Yes, there are things that are plain impossible to know. But again, I would not worry about this too much. We're aware of the issues surrounding this and we'll keep an eye on it.
      
Vulch
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Re:Will People Play Fair? Sat, 09 October 2010 00:08
C'est la guerre <shrug>
      
Funlerz
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Re:Will People Play Fair? Sat, 09 October 2010 17:16
Vulch wrote on Fri, 08 October 2010 18:08

C'est la guerre <shrug>


True, it is war (Thank you translator Razz)
      
Caboose
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Re:Will People Play Fair? Tue, 12 October 2010 18:39
ad79 wrote on Fri, 08 October 2010 14:29



I think this will be very difficult too handle.

Would the program be able to see if my internet connection failed or if I switched of the wifi on the laptop?
The result would be the same. Disconnection.

Stig Morten


True - both would be the same - disconnect. Also add turning off the power to the computer as well as to the modem.

But I wouldn't be surprised, namely with the last few versions of Windows (cough cough), to be able to determine if a computer was powered down inside another program.
      
    
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