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tank commander
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Snipers vs Destroyers Fri, 22 October 2010 22:37
Can a sniper target a ships (destroyers and aircraft carriers)? My first instinct would be no but....

I just wondered about this as I intend to play "Breakthrough to the Beach" (Breakthrough scenario # 4) and want to make sure about this.

By the way, this looks to be a very tough one for the Allies
      
ad79
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Re:Snipers vs Destroyers Fri, 22 October 2010 22:46
I would say no.

Eastern Front rules say Snipers can only target infantry and artillery units.

I think it would be stretching it a bit to call a Destroyer an artillery unit.

Stig Morten
      
Sheridan
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Re:Snipers vs Destroyers Fri, 22 October 2010 22:59
It would make sense to say no.

I have played this scenario several times. As the allies i lost my right flank mobile artillery quite quickly as my opponent used his front line sniper and moved the sniper that is 2 hexes behind that one to one of the hex areas between Hermanville and Lop sur Mer. From that position the axis can hit the mob art and if you don't get if off the baseline quickly, the flags are hits so you lose it even more quickly.

I usually get my 3 front line tanks straight up to the front line towns and go for the flak 88, sniper and inf unit left of the flak 88. I use the warship to target the inf to the right of the frontline sniper. Often i lose most of my tanks but i think you need to take that front line quickly to establish a position on the beach head. The centre axis art can target you there, so if you are lucky enouogh to get air power or barrage and can take the art out, you are in a strong position to land the rest of your units, get them in the towns and plan their advance from there.......


[Updated on: Fri, 22 October 2010 23:01]

      
sam1812
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Re:Snipers vs Destroyers Sat, 23 October 2010 02:36
Perversely, the rules only say that snipers can't attack armor, even though it makes no logical sense for a sniper to be able to sink an aircraft carrier. It probably would be good to get an official statement to patch this presumably unintended consequence.

I'd be inclined to house-rule it in the mean time.
      
pomakli
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Re:Snipers vs Destroyers Sat, 23 October 2010 03:52
tank commander schrieb am Fri, 22 October 2010 22:37

Can a sniper target a ships (destroyers and aircraft carriers)? My first instinct would be no but....


Good joke!

Laughing
      
rasmussen81
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Re:Snipers vs Destroyers Sat, 23 October 2010 05:21
tank commander wrote on Fri, 22 October 2010 13:37

Can a sniper target a ships (destroyers and aircraft carriers)? My first instinct would be no but....


No, a Sniper cannot target ships. Like Stig Morten said, the Eastern Front rule book states that they can only target Infantry and Artillery unit types. If you aren't sure who that includes, think of it in terms of which units you can order with "Move Out" or "Artillery Bombard". Battle Ships and Armored Trains are not ordered by the Artillery Bombard card and are therefore not Artillery units and can't be targeted.

Quote:

I just wondered about this as I intend to play "Breakthrough to the Beach" (Breakthrough scenario # 4) and want to make sure about this.

By the way, this looks to be a very tough one for the Allies


Enjoy! That's a very fun scenario and if I remember right, it is very hard for the Allies.
      
Mighty Jim 83
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Re:Snipers vs Destroyers Sat, 23 October 2010 10:13
shame really - quite like the idea of a sniper picking of the helmsman and the destroyer crashing into some rocks/an iceberg etc.

But given the definite "No"s we get whenever we try to argue that artillery bombard should include naval units, i think it's safe to say it's not artillery.
      
trumpetman52
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Re:Snipers vs Destroyers Sun, 24 October 2010 02:54
I Gotta Ask!
Can a sniper pick off a tank from a tank unit?
I can see an infantry unit or an artillery unit, But a tank?
trumpetman52
      
rasmussen81
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Re:Snipers vs Destroyers Sun, 24 October 2010 03:49
trumpetman52 wrote on Sat, 23 October 2010 17:54

I Gotta Ask!
Can a sniper pick off a tank from a tank unit?
I can see an infantry unit or an artillery unit, But a tank?
trumpetman52


On the Summary Card and in the Eastern Front Rule Book it clearly says that Snipers cannot target Armor units...so no picking off tanks. Cool
      
tank commander
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Re:Snipers vs Destroyers Sun, 24 October 2010 14:15
pomakli wrote on Fri, 22 October 2010 21:52

tank commander schrieb am Fri, 22 October 2010 22:37

Can a sniper target a ships (destroyers and aircraft carriers)? My first instinct would be no but....


Good joke!

Laughing



I would agree that that would be a good one -- laughable indeed, but there are a number of "rules lawyers" out there.

Many years ago I played regularily against one who used this: "The rules do not state I cannot do this or that."

In this case, for example he would say that that snipers can target infantry and artillery but not tanks -- however, it does not say you cannot fire on a ship Shocked

In other words, if a rule was not airtight, it allowed a bit of wiggle room for him -- sigh Rolling Eyes
      
rasmussen81
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Re:Snipers vs Destroyers Sun, 24 October 2010 14:31
tank commander wrote on Sun, 24 October 2010 05:15

I would agree that that would be a good one -- laughable indeed, but there are a number of "rules lawyers" out there.

Many years ago I played regularily against one who used this: "The rules do not state I cannot do this or that."

In this case, for example he would say that that snipers can target infantry and artillery but not tanks -- however, it does not say you cannot fire on a ship Shocked

In other words, if a rule was not airtight, it allowed a bit of wiggle room for him -- sigh Rolling Eyes


Personally, I think I would quickly lose patience with that mentality! I would bet that Richard didn't think he needed to specifically point out that Snipers couldn't attack ships when he wrote the Pacific Theater rules, which is why it's not in there. Razz

Sounds like you should just play Memoir '44 Online against him because all of the rules are enforced with the Official word! Smile
      
Mighty Jim 83
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Re:Snipers vs Destroyers Mon, 25 October 2010 09:28
tank commander wrote on Sun, 24 October 2010 13:15

pomakli wrote on Fri, 22 October 2010 21:52

tank commander schrieb am Fri, 22 October 2010 22:37

Can a sniper target a ships (destroyers and aircraft carriers)? My first instinct would be no but....


Good joke!

Laughing



I would agree that that would be a good one -- laughable indeed, but there are a number of "rules lawyers" out there.

Many years ago I played regularily against one who used this: "The rules do not state I cannot do this or that."

In this case, for example he would say that that snipers can target infantry and artillery but not tanks -- however, it does not say you cannot fire on a ship Shocked

In other words, if a rule was not airtight, it allowed a bit of wiggle room for him -- sigh Rolling Eyes


We have a saying at the gaming night at our local shop - "It doesn't say in the rules I can't punch you!" No-one's ever been hit, but it makes people think twice about making daft attempts to get round the rules.
      
Funlerz
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Re:Snipers vs Destroyers Mon, 25 October 2010 16:01
I agree with ras, I get very annoyed playing with people that try to get around rules like that, I wish people would play with the spirit of the law (or in this case, rules) instead of playing by the word.
      
rasmussen81
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Re:Snipers vs Destroyers Mon, 25 October 2010 19:07
Mighty Jim 83 wrote on Mon, 25 October 2010 00:28


We have a saying at the gaming night at our local shop - "It doesn't say in the rules I can't punch you!" No-one's ever been hit, but it makes people think twice about making daft attempts to get round the rules.


Laughing Laughing I'll have to remember that in case I ever end up playing with someone who tries to use the "the rules don't specifically say I can't" line. Smile

[Updated on: Mon, 25 October 2010 19:08]

      
50th
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Re:Snipers vs Destroyers Tue, 26 October 2010 03:44
trumpetman52 wrote on Sat, 23 October 2010 19:54

I Gotta Ask!
Can a sniper pick off a tank from a tank unit?
I can see an infantry unit or an artillery unit, But a tank?
trumpetman52


How about an open turreted American tank destroyer? I only add this because I have made a house rules that this could happen. Razz

      
Randwulf
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Re:Snipers vs Destroyers Tue, 26 October 2010 06:12
Snipers really didn't like to try and shoot at any kind of tank...
Something about return fire and being blown up with a much bigger gun.

Don't really want to hide in a building when the building could become the target...
      
rasmussen81
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Re:Snipers vs Destroyers Tue, 26 October 2010 07:43
Randwulf wrote on Mon, 25 October 2010 21:12

Snipers really didn't like to try and shoot at any kind of tank...
Something about return fire and being blown up with a much bigger gun.

Don't really want to hide in a building when the building could become the target...


The final battle scene from Saving Private Ryan comes to mind!! Razz

I'm not sure that a house rule for Snipers taking out tanks would work because although the sniper might eliminate one man from an open-top tank each turn, the tank would still be able to function for a while and there is no way to represent crew members being killed in Memoir '44. That means that in game terms the Sniper would be eliminating a whole tank (or a few tanks depending on the scale of the battle) before the tanks would get to fire back...

I guess you could use counters to represent casualties in the tank crews. Maybe three casualties (counters) and a tank figure is eliminated because the remaining crew can't run the machine, but it seems to be a little too complex to work very well.

But if you've tried it and you think it works, 50th, go for it! Cool

[Updated on: Tue, 26 October 2010 10:46]

      
PanzerRunes
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Re:Snipers vs Destroyers Tue, 26 October 2010 20:22
From my understanding snipers can only target infantry units.

I am curious if a sniper can target a Jeep or Halftrack?

I would say Jeep "yes" and Halftrack "no"

      
Achtung Panzer
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Re:Snipers vs Destroyers Tue, 26 October 2010 20:37
I think there's a point to be made about the rules actually reflecting tactics. A sniper's high-powered rifle was an anti-personnel weapon. That's why the rules say you can't target tanks - it wouldn't be practical, historical or realistic. In that sense, the game is teaching us about history.

House Rules are just that - rules. Things that you can or can't do in a game. So seeing a destroyer just as a unit, rather than a large ship lying out of sniper range, is to see the mechanisms and not the game.
      
trumpetman52
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Re:Snipers vs Destroyers Wed, 27 October 2010 04:00
Thanks for your insight.
trumpetman52
      
    
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