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genswanc
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Artillery and ignoring flags when attacking Tue, 02 November 2010 17:58
I know artillery ignore die reductions but do they also ignore flags when attacking (Ex. Sandbags and Bunkers)? Lets say I attack a bunker with my artillery gun and roll one flag; does the unit in the bunker ignore that first flag or does it retreat?
      
rasmussen81
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Re:Artillery and ignoring flags when attacking Tue, 02 November 2010 18:21
genswanc wrote on Tue, 02 November 2010 20:58

I know artillery ignore die reductions but do they also ignore flags when attacking (Ex. Sandbags and Bunkers)? Lets say I attack a bunker with my artillery gun and roll one flag; does the unit in the bunker ignore that first flag or does it retreat?


All units in Bunkers and Sandbags still ignore the first flag. Artillery does not get to override the Retreat Flag protection the way they get to ignore the battle die protection.

As a side note, any time an attack can ignore the retreat flag protection it will specifically point that fact out. Enjoy! Cool
      
stevens
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Re:Artillery and ignoring flags when attacking Tue, 02 November 2010 19:33
Ras is correct, you always have the choice as the defender to ignore the 1st flag in a field bunker, in your own bunker or in a sandbagged position except:

To be specific, the Barrage Card and the Airpower Card DO NOT allow units (even Japanese infantry) to ignore even the 1st FLAG.

Also if you play with Air rules and the Opponent is attacking your position with GROUND SUPPORT, you may not ignore any flags.

[Updated on: Tue, 02 November 2010 19:36]

      
genswanc
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Re:Artillery and ignoring flags when attacking Tue, 02 November 2010 19:35
So artillery can't ignore flags when attacking, right?
      
stevens
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Re:Artillery and ignoring flags when attacking Tue, 02 November 2010 19:38
An artillery unit that is being ATTACKED in it's own bunker may ignore the first flag.

An artillery unit that is being ATTACKED in a sandbagged position may ignore the first flag.

Unless one of the exceptions noted above is true.

[Updated on: Tue, 02 November 2010 19:41]

      
genswanc
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Re:Artillery and ignoring flags when attacking Tue, 02 November 2010 19:40
Thanks!
      
stevens
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Re:Artillery and ignoring flags when attacking Tue, 02 November 2010 19:41
Ignoring the 1st flag is the DEFENDERS perogative not the ATTACKERS choice.

The defender may find it to his advantage to high tail it out of a HOT situation instead of sitting there and getting blasted.

[Updated on: Tue, 02 November 2010 19:42]

      
stevens
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Re:Artillery and ignoring flags when attacking Tue, 02 November 2010 19:44
Welcome to the forums genswanc!

Post all the questions you want we will be glad to help!!
      
sam1812
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Re:Artillery and ignoring flags when attacking Wed, 03 November 2010 03:18
stevens wrote on Tue, 02 November 2010 14:33

Also if you play with Air rules and the Opponent is attacking your position with GROUND SUPPORT, you may not ignore any flags.

Clarification: A Japanese infantry unit being attacked in the presence of aerial Ground Support loses any terrain protection against flags, but I believe the unit's inherent resistance against one flag would remain intact. Ditto for Italian artillery and Heroic Leaders, when those special rules are in effect.
      
rasmussen81
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Re:Artillery and ignoring flags when attacking Wed, 03 November 2010 04:17
sam1812 wrote on Wed, 03 November 2010 06:18

stevens wrote on Tue, 02 November 2010 14:33

Also if you play with Air rules and the Opponent is attacking your position with GROUND SUPPORT, you may not ignore any flags.

Clarification: A Japanese infantry unit being attacked in the presence of aerial Ground Support loses any terrain protection against flags, but I believe the unit's inherent resistance against one flag would remain intact. Ditto for Italian artillery and Heroic Leaders, when those special rules are in effect.


Sam is exactly right. The key is that Ground Support only eliminates the Terrain protections, nothing else. Good catch Sam! Smile
      
Freeloading Phill
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Re:Artillery and ignoring flags when attacking Wed, 03 November 2010 06:29
rasmussen81

All units in Bunkers and Sandbags still ignore the first flag. Artillery does not get to override the Retreat Flag protection the way they get to ignore the battle die protection.

Hmm. Apparently my group has been playing it wrong all the time. We included ignore a flag as part of the protection provided by the terrain and allowed artillery to override it. Embarassed

rasmussen81

As a side note, any time an attack can ignore the retreat flag protection it will specifically point that fact out. Enjoy! Cool

Looking at the rule book I can see that artillery overriding the ignoring of flags is not mentioned under flags for the terrains.

It is definitely unclear if you do what I did and read the rules once and then go by the cards (where die reductions and flag ignoring both look like "protection) when you play unless something seems to need clarification.

The general way we have of talking about both die-reduction and flag ignoring as protection provided by the terrain doesn't help with the confusion either. Confused

Phill
      
stevens
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Re:Artillery and ignoring flags when attacking Wed, 03 November 2010 11:49
Sam states:
Quote:

Clarification: A Japanese infantry unit being attacked in the presence of aerial Ground Support loses any terrain protection against flags, but I believe the unit's inherent resistance against one flag would remain intact. Ditto for Italian artillery and Heroic Leaders, when those special rules are in effect.


I must agree. Sorry for speaking to soon without considering this possibility regarding the unit's inherent resistance.
Embarassed

P.7 Air Rules Manual
Quote:

Ground Support (Corsair, P38, Yak-1, Yak-9)
Special Action: Airplane negates terrain protection for all
enemy units adjacent to the Airplane and attacked by ground
troops in Close Assault this turn.


It's takes a village to answer a question well. Laughing
      
ad79
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Re:Artillery and ignoring flags when attacking Wed, 03 November 2010 18:14
And just to add further confusion to this issue.

Units in Balkas (Terrain 64) has protection against artillery attacks too.
http://www.daysofwonder.com/memoir44/en/content/cards_compen dium/?id=balkas

Stig Morten
      
Freeloading Phill
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Re:Artillery and ignoring flags when attacking Thu, 04 November 2010 03:01
stevens wrote

P.7 Air Rules Manual
Quote:

Ground Support (Corsair, P38, Yak-1, Yak-9)
Special Action: Airplane negates terrain protection for all
enemy units adjacent to the Airplane and attacked by ground
troops in Close Assault this turn.



But that uses almost the same wording as an artillery attack. Confused
The only difference that I can see is that artillery ignore terrain protection while Ground Interdiction negates it - both sound like the same thing to me.
Also Engineers don't stop flag ignoring either.

In the card compendium comments for Ground Interdiction
http://www.daysofwonder.com/memoir44/en/content/cards_compen dium/?id=air_rule_6
the answer to a question states:
Quote:

Ground Support negates any terrain protection, not just the battle dice reduction. So if the unit was able to ignore a flag due to its underlying terrain, it no longer gets that benefit.



I think this answer is wrong. If both artillery attacks and ground interdiction ignore/negate terrain protection shouldn't they both work the same way, and shouldn't the phrase terrain protection mean the same thing for both abilities?

Phill
      
sam1812
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Re:Artillery and ignoring flags when attacking Thu, 04 November 2010 03:45
According to the official FAQ (page 29), "Ground Support negates any and all terrain protection, both Battle Dice reduction and the ability to ignore Flags."

That's very different from the rule book saying that when attacking a town, forest, or hedgerow, artillery Battle Dice are not reduced.

[Updated on: Thu, 04 November 2010 03:51]

      
Freeloading Phill
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Re:Artillery and ignoring flags when attacking Thu, 04 November 2010 03:54
sam1812 wrote on Thu, 04 November 2010 13:45

According to the official FAQ (page 29), "Ground Support negates any and all terrain protection, both Battle Dice reduction and the ability to ignore Flags."


Okay then:

Artillery attacks ignore all terrain protection.

Except all terrain protection doesn't include the ability to ignore flags

Do you see the reason I'm puzzled about the rulings (one way or another)? Confused

Oh and I was not quite right about Engineers the card states specifically that they:
Ignore all terrain Battle dice reductions

Which still further confuses the Artillery and Flags question.

Phill
      
Freeloading Phill
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Re:Artillery and ignoring flags when attacking Thu, 04 November 2010 04:24
sam1812 updated

That's very different from the rule book saying that when attacking a town, forest, or hedgerow, artillery Battle Dice are not reduced.


Exactly. Confused

I shouldn't have said wrong before, what I mean is that the ruling appears inconsistent and not reflected well on the summary cards or in the rules.

The rulebook states that for certain terrain types Artillery dice are not reduced. (kind of reads like a reminder)
Both versions of the Artillery summary card say it's attacks ignore terrain protections.
Together this reads like Terrain Protections means only the dice reductions.

Terrain summary cards don't repeat anything from the original rulebook about artillery.

Ground Support comes along and uses ambiguous negates all Terrain Protection wording with no clarifying examples.
Looks like the same thing that the Artillery does but with different words.

The only thing says flags can't be ignored under Ground Support is the FAQ ruling which seems inconsistent with the way terrain protections have been dealt with up until it was made. Confused

Phill
      
numquam retro
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Re:Artillery and ignoring flags when attacking Thu, 04 November 2010 09:45
Hello,

I am a new memoir44 player an I enjoy this game very much!
After reading manunals the last weeks I read another "new" statement in WinterWars:

"A Tank Destroyer that does not move during the turn it
battles ignores the terrain battle protections of its
target (and any terrain battle restrictions on itself, if
battling from inside a Town or Village hex)." and

"Heavy Anti-Tank Guns ignore terrain battle restrictions." and

"If it did not move this turn, the Infantry with a Mortar
may also fire on a target 4 hexes away, rolling 1 die.
It also ignores the terrain battle protections of its
target, in this case.

Is it right, that this wording "terrain battle protections" means only the battle dice reduction? So all flag protections will still be enabled?

What is the difference between: terrain battle protections and terrain battle restrictions?
Can it be, that this additional "battle" ( in "terrain battle protections") against the "terrain protection" in case of ground support means, that in case of an "terrain battle protections" only the battle dice reduction is valid?

So as I sum it up:

1. Flags-ignoring of unit's inherent resistance against one flag would always remain intact (japans, italian artillery and Heroic Leaders).

2. Flags may not be ignored against Barrage Card, the Airpower card and GROUND SUPPORT.

3. Flags may be ignored against Heavy Anti-Tank Guns, Tank Destroyers and Infantry with a Mortar in Winter Wars. The three units ignore only battle dice reduction.

Is this right?


Thanks for help.

[Updated on: Thu, 04 November 2010 10:00]

      
stevens
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Re:Artillery and ignoring flags when attacking Thu, 04 November 2010 11:52
Welcome to the Forum numquam.

I appreciate your questions and look forward to a good response from the community on them. Unfortunately, when talking with a new player about the nuance of a particular rule, we senior players often tend to forget that some players are still working through a common understanding of the basic rules.
The fact remains that even the basic rules have taken some considerable time for some (including myself) to work out. With this caveat, I don't think there is a quick and easy answer to your question. My preference would be to look at the rules from a GENERAL stand point and their application and then look at it in specific context to some of the questions you raise. The reality is, that with the addition of each new expansion, terrain type, and fighting unit; the rules applications often become more complex. Many players enjoy this layering of complexity as it adds "realism" to the battles. However, I would not want to begin a discussion parsing out the intricacies of new unit rules without a common understanding of the basic rules.
Before we get into specifics on discussing particular scenarios, I think it best if we reach a consensus on what terrain battle restrictions and terrain battle protections are relative to a particular terrain hex.

Let's take a particular terrain hex and evaluate this.

Towns & Villages Hex

Battle Restrictions
Unit moving in cannot battle
Armor battles out at -2 dice
Block line of sight

These items RESTRICT or limit when and how units can battle

Battle Protections
1 dice reduction by attacking infantry
2 dice reduction by attacking armor
No dice reduction from attacking artillery

This limits the number of attacking dice from an attacking unit and affords the occupying unit some PROTECTION.

Are we all in agreement on these points? Awaiting the Memoir Forum village's response...

My plan is to answer these questions in a measured approach with the community agreement. So if your patient, I think this will be a productive exercise.



[Updated on: Thu, 04 November 2010 12:11]

      
rasmussen81
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Re:Artillery and ignoring flags when attacking Thu, 04 November 2010 13:21
stevens wrote on Thu, 04 November 2010 14:52


Let's take a particular terrain hex and evaluate this.

Towns & Villages Hex

Battle Restrictions
Unit moving in cannot battle
Armor battles out at -2 dice
Block line of sight

These items RESTRICT or limit when and how units can battle

Battle Protections
1 dice reduction by attacking infantry
2 dice reduction by attacking armor
No dice reduction from attacking artillery

This limits the number of attacking dice from an attacking unit and affords the occupying unit some PROTECTION.

Are we all in agreement on these points? Awaiting the Memoir Forum village's response...


Yep, I agree so far. To help with what Battle Restrictions are, take a look at the Behind Enemy Lines card because it talks about how Movement restrictions are ignored (the unit can move freely) but Battle Restrictions still apply (the unit cannot battle if he ends in terrain that would prevent attacking).
      
rasmussen81
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Re:Artillery and ignoring flags when attacking Thu, 04 November 2010 13:44
Freeloading Phill wrote on Thu, 04 November 2010 07:24


I shouldn't have said wrong before, what I mean is that the ruling appears inconsistent and not reflected well on the summary cards or in the rules.

The rulebook states that for certain terrain types Artillery dice are not reduced. (kind of reads like a reminder)


Like ad79 pointed out, the only terrain I can think of that protects anyone from Artillery is Balkas (Terrain 64). Artillery get full dice for every other type of terrain. Artillery can never force units to retreat if they are in Bunkers, Sandbags, Hedgehogs, etc. This fact is true for any type of artillery unit including Big Guns, Mobil Artillery, and normal Artillery.

Quote:

Both versions of the Artillery summary card say it's attacks ignore terrain protections.
Together this reads like Terrain Protections means only the dice reductions.

Terrain summary cards don't repeat anything from the original rulebook about artillery.


This is exactly true...for Ground Units and Sea Units, Terrain Protections means only the dice reductions.

Quote:

Ground Support comes along and uses ambiguous negates all Terrain Protection wording with no clarifying examples.
Looks like the same thing that the Artillery does but with different words.

The only thing says flags can't be ignored under Ground Support is the FAQ ruling which seems inconsistent with the way terrain protections have been dealt with up until it was made. Confused

Phill


You're exactly right...the wording for Ground Support was unclear and used the same language ("Terrain Protection") as Artillery and Combat Engineers so it created some confusion. That's exactly why the question and subsequent answer was included in the FAQ!! Very Happy

Here's the key, though: Ground Support was a break from the norm, not the other way around. What I mean is that up until Ground Support came along the term "Terrain Protection" always meant that defending units lost some protection (attackers could roll the full number of dice) but the defender could always choose to ignore 1 flag. Even when being attacked by a Combat Engineer the defending unit gets to ignore 1 flag. So in the future, anytime you see that units can ignore Terrain Protection when they attack, it indicates that battle dice are reduced but units keep the ability to ignore a flag...unless it says otherwise.

I hope this helps with some of the confusion.

[Updated on: Thu, 04 November 2010 14:00]

      
numquam retro
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Re:Artillery and ignoring flags when attacking Thu, 04 November 2010 17:44
Thank you very much for your fast answers.

stevens schrieb am Thu, 04 November 2010 11:52

Let's take a particular terrain hex and evaluate this.

Towns & Villages Hex

Battle Restrictions
Unit moving in cannot battle
Armor battles out at -2 dice
Block line of sight

These items RESTRICT or limit when and how units can battle

Battle Protections
1 dice reduction by attacking infantry
2 dice reduction by attacking armor
No dice reduction from attacking artillery

This limits the number of attacking dice from an attacking unit and affords the occupying unit some PROTECTION.



Ok, now this is totally clear for me. "Terrain Battle Protections" always means some kind of dice reduction (and has nothing to do with "flag-results").

Conclusion: Heavy Anti-Tank Guns ignore terrain battle restrictions means nothing in case of a Towns & Villages Hex:

Battle Restrictions

Unit moving in cannot battle ==> without effect, because artillery cannot battle, when moving (Heavy Anti-Tank Guns are not a mobile artillery)

Armor battles out at -2 dice ==> without effect for artillery
Block line of sight ==> Unlike standard Artillery units, Heavy Anti-Tank Guns must have line of sight to their target.

Am I right?

In which cases of terrain makes Heavy Anti-Tank Guns ignore terrain battle restrictions a difference?

[Updated on: Thu, 04 November 2010 19:41]

      
stevens
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Re:Artillery and ignoring flags when attacking Thu, 04 November 2010 18:59
Yes you are correct. A Heavy Anti-Tank gun would not be effected (no dice reductions) for attacking a unit in basically any type of terrain. It does, however, have to have LOS [line of sight] to its target. Fires at 2-2-2-2

Now a Tank Destroyer has 2 benefits.
It is treated like armor in several ways (ie. hit on an armor dice roll). So normally, if an armor unit was firing its gun from inside a village hex it would have a -2 dice reduction. However, the Tank Destroyer unit is exempt from this restriction.
If a tank destroyer does not move on the turn it battles, it may also ignore the terrain protections of the unit it is attacking.

So in the case where a tank destroyer is sitting in a town, it may attack an adjacent unit enemy unit sitting in an adjacent town with no dice reduction. This is something to consider when placing these guns to catch the enemy in a crossfire.

Regarding all Terrain effecting Artillery Fire

Wadis and Gullies:

http://www.daysofwonder.com/memoir44/en/content/cards_compen dium/?id=terrain_44

Balkas:

http://www.daysofwonder.com/memoir44/en/content/cards_compen dium/?id=balkas

All these terrains reduce the Artillery battle dice by 1.

[Updated on: Thu, 04 November 2010 19:26]

      
numquam retro
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Re:Artillery and ignoring flags when attacking Fri, 05 November 2010 10:53
Thanks for your help!
      
    
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