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dea1
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I'm sorry Tue, 16 November 2010 21:17
Hi all, especially NC players,

it's my embarrassing duty to inform you that there is convincing cheating evidence against a member of my team.

During Round Robin, AT_Wernerus played 3 matches where his opponent was observeable and the account "eklip" was present in the lobby and obviously observing Wernerus' games.
I was informed about that by team UEG during the 3rd of these matches.
We agreed to collect further information, which seemed to prove Wernerus innocent in the first place (at least in my eyes).
But last night Mudda received the answer from DOW that the IP address of Wernerus and eklip is identical - so yes, it hurts a lot, but I'm convinced now.

I still think, closed games are no solution against cheating as it would ruin our events.
But I like to acknowledge openly
- Mudda was right in the assumption he posted at the beginning of NC, that there were still cheaters around
- UEG does a very good job in finding them by thorough research.
I also want to thank UEG for their fair behaviour, not to accuse my team member before there was sufficient evidence.

I'm ashamed that my people skills were not good enough to avoid such a case in my own team.

I'm truly sorry, that's all I've left to say
Sorry, team RED (fortunately only one team was negatively affected) - it stays true, we cannot win a clash against you.
Sorry, community - our game with all its nice events is based on trust. For actions shaking up that trust there is no excuse.

And last not least
Sorry, Shamogi, for the awkward decision you have to take now (I informed the TD last night, so he's probably prepared to give his ruling soon) - TD, your call

Sincerely
dea
      
Mr Bean
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Re:I'm sorry Tue, 16 November 2010 21:44
Brave post, dea.

Agree with practically all you say except there is no need for you (or the rest of the team) to be ashamed. how on earth could you be expected to prevent something like this? in my opinion you have done exactly the right thing!
      
bassie
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Re:I'm sorry Tue, 16 November 2010 21:49
Well, in a way I understand the feeling of shame. A good captain feels responsible for "bringing up" the team. Sorry dea, all the best.
      
Sysyphus - Pommard
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Re:I'm sorry Tue, 16 November 2010 21:52
+1 with Bean.

Hard to handle such a thing as a captain...
So, best luck with that.

But like dea mentionned, nc would die with closed games...

As a red player (and my comment is strictly personal), sure the TD will find a balanced solution to solve that fairly.

And yes, that sucks...
      
JenAck
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Re:I'm sorry Tue, 16 November 2010 21:57
hello Dea and Team AT
I think that's probably the worst post that one Capt must write.
It is not the fault of the whole team and also a capt cannot prevent everything.
Pity for you if you because of the error by a single have to excrete.
I am sure The TD will find a good solution.

I wish the remaining players lots of fun and fair play

for you dea my respect..

>play closed I still find no a good solution
the NC lives from the spectators

greets Jen
      
thekid
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Re:I'm sorry Tue, 16 November 2010 22:06
FIX THE OBSERVATION STATUS NOW!!!!!!!

You can watch the game but see no tickets and no cards. There shouldn't be another tournament game before this is done right.

There are still losers here, no way???? Who ever would have thought of that?????

Ummm, a comment from Angel here would be more appropriate. Read some of his old posts. Angel and Wernerus are very close. Travelled together, one post seems to say they shared an account here. So what does Angel have to say?????



[Updated on: Tue, 16 November 2010 22:09]

      
Hecki
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Re:I'm sorry Tue, 16 November 2010 22:18
Thumbs up for dea and the rest of AT, thumbs down for Wernerus. Don't let this tournament die because of one or two idiots. Seems every nation has some of them.
      
TIC wasdenn
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Re:I'm sorry Tue, 16 November 2010 22:39
First @ Dea

as said, it's sad that it happens and there is probably nothing a captain can do to prevent it. It's nevertheless hard for a captain to have to post something like this, and you did it the right way.

Second @ Wernerus

I don't understand you at all. Like Hogwarts last year, like Deveric, like all the others.

Third @ thekid

the observation mode with hidden cards and tickets is faulty, you can see every card when it moves to your store, and the tickets as well. So no real gain in protection against cheaters.

Moreover, as an observer, I absolutely hate it. Watching is less than half the fun in this mode.

So PLEASE NO SUCH mode of restricted observation! NC is diminished a lot without a full view on (at least) one player.

Let the cheaters wallow in their misery and let us still have the fun.

wasdenn

TICATTAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAC
      
thekid
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Re:I'm sorry Tue, 16 November 2010 22:44
TIC-wasdenn wrote on Tue, 16 November 2010 16:39

Third @ thekid

the observation mode with hidden cards and tickets is faulty, you can see every card when it moves to your store, and the tickets as well. So no real gain in protection against cheaters.

Moreover, as an observer, I absolutely hate it. Watching is less than half the fun in this mode.

So PLEASE NO SUCH mode of restricted observation! NC is diminished a lot without a full view on (at least) one player.




That's why I said fix it, I know the problems of it.

And all you people who think one person has to be observed to make it a fun game for the observers you know what I think now:

You deserve to get cheated if you don't want to fix the problem.

The observers are owed nothing, the person who gets cheated is the one that needs protection, not the observers.
      
blubes
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Re:I'm sorry Tue, 16 November 2010 23:06
community,

Step 1.
someone who knows please : describe the precise nature of a fix for the observation mode -

Step 2.
someone who knows please : (name and email) of a contact at DOW if anyone who might be able to help create / implement a solution -

perhaps we could right this

blubes
      
TuS Tenniskasi
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Re:I'm sorry Wed, 17 November 2010 01:22
Hi,

I absolutely cannot agree with your post, dea! To organize this tournament, we need players, who organize teams, that take part. In making this job, u now have had a sleepless night.

If we tried to check all players and invite only those, whom we know personally, we would have 3 or 4 teams. What a great tournament. And funny, AT would be one of those. So for me there's no reason for U to excuse what happened. U can never be sure, that everybody plays fair.

Thx for a good decision, shamo, fast and fair. And I hope, u will organize an Austrian Team next year again, dea. Thx for Ur work, the tournament can only exist with players like U.


Carsten
      
*player245111
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Re:I'm sorry Wed, 17 November 2010 07:16
IN CRE DI BLE !

Shame on Wernerus (if it's true, cause Nothing let me think in our game that he cheat !)

I really believe that 99 % player who play NC are fair and "good player", shame for the other (I hope that in their life it's different)!

Hug for DEA, thx to UEG observer & Shamogi TD work...

NéoSad
      
Hrundi_Bakshi
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Re:I'm sorry Wed, 17 November 2010 10:14
Fisrt: Dea you don't have to be sorry. Dissapointed maybe, but sorry, NO.

What Wernerus is said to have done is unfair indeeed. Tracking IPs and observing the status of suspicious second accounts, technically will not solve the problem. This will only force cheaters to ask friends do the observing and update though skype in real time.

I don't feel either that hidding cards and tickets is good for most players. Remember how much each one of us learned by observing the tactics of a top player? Can anyone imagine watching football, without seeing the ...ball?

If it was my call to decide whether to apply restricting rules to the game itself or not, I would'nt do a thing. The value of enjoying a top ranked player deploying her/his talent on the map, is much much higher than the 'cost' of having a couple of cheating folks in NC, or any other tournament.

Most people here, play for fun. Don't ruin it. Smile Smile

Tassos

[Updated on: Wed, 17 November 2010 10:21]

      
OLE Masimo
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Re:I'm sorry Wed, 17 November 2010 10:22
Unbeleavable!

I am so sorry for you, dea - all of us that know you personally can feel how that hurts you personally Crying or Very Sad

I cannot understand how players that did a lot to build up a reputation (like deveric, now Wernerus ...) throw all that away just for one tournament success ... ???

Still this shows that cheaters have no chance the long way - they will show up sooner or later.

Thanks to UEG and thanks to dea for taking this action

Thanks to Shamogi for solving this difficult problem now after the playoffs have already started. You did a great job - I am very happy that we do have you as TD.


As to the closed games/hidden cards option that indeed seems to be a logical request now - I still do not like it. For myself it is still a great part of the NC to see one player "playing"! with all the options of thinking "what will she/he do next - why is she/he doing this etc" (and we have fun discussing that in our team while watching) - I would miss a lot of that when you can`t see tix/cards ... watching is just different then.

I know nothing about programming, just an idea I have: it all goes over the ip-adress, right? and DoW stores it, so they must get it when one logs in - wouldn`t it be possible to program the "observe-function" so that a game CANNOT be observed by the same ip-adress that is already IN the game?

Whatever ideas we do have - from the past experience I we should not ask DoW for any fixes unless we are able to come up with a very detailed request, clear and easy to adopt. "FIX THE OBSERVATION STATUS NOW!!!!!!! " won`t do the trick. Nothing will happen from the DoW side no matter how often you repeat it!



      
*zufuR
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Re:I'm sorry Wed, 17 November 2010 10:36
Thx Dea for your brave posting.

Like Kasi last year, you did a good job in handling the problem of having identified an unfair team member.
It is of course sad for you, your team and the whole event of the NC.

Like Tassos already wrote: it would also be easy to watch your own game from a different IP. So it would not prevent cheating if it would be impossible to watch the game from the players IP.

And sad but true: maybe we have not caught all the cheaters around, because tracking IP numbers might not be sufficient to find them.

Nevertheless: good job from all those who have been involved to discover this. keep going.

Rufuz




      
Stephan1972
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Re:I'm sorry Wed, 17 November 2010 11:01
I 100% agree with the need to 'fix the observation status'. There are three main reasons for change.

1. Cheating

a. It is now clear that cheating is a standard part of all or nearly all major tournaments. A third or more teams will have played a match in each of the last NCs against a team in which one player has been adjudged to have cheated - each time using the observe function. It seems more than likely than other cheats have not been detected

b. Cheating by top players is very very hard to detect. Only an idiot would block out unpredictable tickets when it is completely off route. Top players will know what is obvious and what they can get away with. Pipping someone to the mutually desireable blacks or oranges can turn the game but no one will suspect a thing.

2. Not cheating

a. Many players will avoid unusual plays, brave blocks, etc if they are the lower ranked player. This spoils the game too.

b. People will be unjustifiably suspected or accused of cheating because they played 'above their station' or because they played an unconventional game. I have had many suspicions this NC, but am convinced I am mostly wrong. In other words, the trust between players is damaged.

3. Observation status makes little sense as it stands anyway

a. even without cheating, why only observe one person's game? why not both? (be funny watching the cheat cheat Twisted Evil )

b. It would make it much more exciting when both sets of tickets/colours are unknown. Half the time (especially because of watching the higher-ranked player) the outcome quickly becomes a foregone conclusion, which makes observing games less interesting.

So solutions:

- tournament games should remain observable
- change code so tickets and colours are not observable


DOW - please could you give an indication what solutions have been considered, and which might be feasible. I do think there is growing consensus that this is a serious problem that undermines the tournaments which are such a success story of online TTR.
      
Hrundi_Bakshi
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Re:I'm sorry Wed, 17 November 2010 11:06
Stephan iginted a spark into my mind: ever imagined re-designing the game, playing with open tickets and cards?
      
AT_Angel6
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Re:I'm sorry Wed, 17 November 2010 11:52
thekid schrieb am Tue, 16 November 2010 22:06

Ummm, a comment from Angel here would be more appropriate. Read some of his old posts. Angel and Wernerus are very close. Travelled together, one post seems to say they shared an account here. So what does Angel have to say?????

kid, why do you think I have anything interesting to say?
Wernerus is a very good friend of mine, but if he ever cheated he would never ever told me about it Twisted Evil

In the first half of 2005, I played seriously as Angel6, and casually for fun with Katzenfrau. Katzenfrau was Wernerus' daughter. As a result, Katzenfrau's ELO ranking got too high. And when Wernerus played against his daughter (and won mainly), his rating got too high also. This I wrote years ago, very useful that you kiddy bring it up every few months.

Since the end of 2005, I exclusivly played some multis with Angel345 and otherwise with Angel6. I never cheated and never supported anyone cheating. And I was never aware of any Austrian tournament player cheating.

That's what you wanted to hear?
And please continue posting as much as you can, eventually you will write something sensible Evil or Very Mad
      
JenAck
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Re:I'm sorry Wed, 17 November 2010 12:13
OLE Masimo schrieb am Wed, 17 November 2010 10:22


I know nothing about programming, just an idea I have: it all goes over the ip-adress, right? and DoW stores it, so they must get it when one logs in - wouldn`t it be possible to program the "observe-function" so that a game CANNOT be observed by the same ip-adress that is already IN the game?



maybe a bad decision for the couple of us?
      
Hrundi_Bakshi
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Re:I'm sorry Wed, 17 November 2010 12:39
Inside my appartment (suburbs of Athens) I get signal from five neighbouring wireless routers, of which three are always open to access.

Let's face it: Possibilities in cheating are endless. Undiscovered cheaters are now reading these posts and laughing with our ignorance in their means of work.

I'll keep playing and having fun EVEN AGAINST CHEATERS! My life won't become miserable just because another person that I won't probably ever meet with, is observing my game and blocking me.

OLE Masimo schrieb am Wed, 17 November 2010 10:22


I know nothing about programming, just an idea I have: it all goes over the ip-adress, right? and DoW stores it, so they must get it when one logs in - wouldn`t it be possible to program the "observe-function" so that a game CANNOT be observed by the same ip-adress that is already IN the game?




[Updated on: Wed, 17 November 2010 12:41]

      
thekid
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Re:I'm sorry Wed, 17 November 2010 13:49
AT_Angel6 wrote on Wed, 17 November 2010 05:52

thekid schrieb am Tue, 16 November 2010 22:06

Ummm, a comment from Angel here would be more appropriate. Read some of his old posts. Angel and Wernerus are very close. Travelled together, one post seems to say they shared an account here. So what does Angel have to say?????

kid, why do you think I have anything interesting to say?
Wernerus is a very good friend of mine, but if he ever cheated he would never ever told me about it Twisted Evil

In the first half of 2005, I played seriously as Angel6, and casually for fun with Katzenfrau. Katzenfrau was Wernerus' daughter. As a result, Katzenfrau's ELO ranking got too high. And when Wernerus played against his daughter (and won mainly), his rating got too high also. This I wrote years ago, very useful that you kiddy bring it up every few months.

Since the end of 2005, I exclusivly played some multis with Angel345 and otherwise with Angel6. I never cheated and never supported anyone cheating. And I was never aware of any Austrian tournament player cheating.

That's what you wanted to hear?
And please continue posting as much as you can, eventually you will write something sensible Evil or Very Mad



No it's not what I wanted to hear. It's actually quite weak. Some more info would be appropriate as you are such a good friend with him. Have you talked to him since? Why did he did he do it? Is he sorry? Did he do it on your previous years teams? PROBABLY. Is he going to return the free game he got from your team winning the NC? DOUBT IT. You ever watch any of his games? Never got any inclination? So it takes Mudda who doesn't know him to figure it out. So, sorry your answer is WEAK. But your defense of him in the past was STRONG. So lets take a trip down memory lane shall we?

And, ummmm someone else used to call me kiddy.


AT_Angel6 wrote on Mon, 30 May 2005 14:56

I'd like to tell a story of two Austrian couples, one having an 11 year old daughter.

The husbands were regular bridge partners, and all of the 5 loved to play board games like T2R, so they often met and played together for a whole weekend.

When they learned about T2R-Online, they started to play it intensively, particularly the two husbands and one wife.

They bought the board game 4 times, not only to sponsor DoW, but to get 4 accounts for the online game, one for each 'hooked' players and one for mother+daughter.

The two husbands and the much playing wife made it to the top of the rankings quite fast, whereas mother+daughter played less and also less successful.

Playing at the top is somewhat stressful, so both men also played with the account of mother+daughter, if they just wanted to relax, or try something, or play 3/4/5 player games, or...

Also importantly, the girl liked it the most to play against her father, and so they did quite often, and the girl was very happy with every (seldom) win. Razz

So, they all lived happily together, until one of them discovered a forum, where things about one of them where postet, which he found somewhat irritating and mean. Sad

Of course mother+daughter sometimes playes much better and sometimes much worse, and of course mother+daughter has a better ranking than they would have on their own, and of course father gets a few points more beating his daughter than he should get.

BUT, all this has nothing to do with cheating but only with having fun in the manner they like, not doing any harm to anybody, and I don't like those accusations at all. Evil or Very Mad

Especially, the father has got a very good percentage against strong players, and having 1790 or 1750 ELO ranking would not be much of a difference for him.

Maybe it would be nice to say, lets not count the games against the daughter for the father´s ranking, but this is not possible currently. So, the father´s ranking is the result of very good play and upright behaviour - even if it not EXACTLY (but almost!) represents his correct playing strenght.

Kind Regards,

Angel6, husband,
Angel9, wife,
Wernerus, father, and
Katzenfrau, mother and daughter.


So playing an inflated account against an 11 year old was very good and upright behavior. Man watching your opponent must be outstanding and stupendous behavior.

[Updated on: Wed, 17 November 2010 13:52]

      
TuS Tenniskasi
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Re:I'm sorry Wed, 17 November 2010 14:22
I would prefer a choice, whose game I can watch, and a list on the board, who was observing the game. So if I looked Petes game against ThoMue for example and not ThoMues game, everybody would see that. And if there is a HansWurst watching the game as it was last year, he cannot hope to hide. But is that possible? I dont know.

I'm not very angry about the cheaters, I think they are poor people. But sometimes I think, something like the "buddies-only" mode could help. U would have to make a list of players, who are accepted to view tournament-games. All the NC-players would be on this list. Dow makes a "tournamentplayers-only"-function. But so we would be a circle of elitist players, anu, felix etc. couldn't see the games.

Or they play nc next year again Smile.

And now kill me, because all this is too difficult. But I share the opinion, that hidden cards and tix would kill this tournament. Without seeing the players colours, u cannot discuss about what u would have done, cause u never know, if it was possible.

Carsten
      
AT_Angel6
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Re:I'm sorry Wed, 17 November 2010 14:23
thekid schrieb am Wed, 17 November 2010 13:49

So playing an inflated account against an 11 year old was very good and upright behavior. Man watching your opponent must be outstanding and stupendous behavior.

It was very normal behavior back then and much more my fault (by playing the Katzenfrau account) than Wernerus' (by playing his daughter).

In May 2005, this community just started to believe that this behavior might not be ok, because the precious ranking must not be forged in any way. And only one misguided kiddy dared to call this cheating and is still proud about it. Others might learn, but kiddy never doubts his own truth claims. Reading my old post just affirms that I remember rightly.

And I'm not at all willing to talk to Wernerus about this. As I've written in the past, I pity cheaters, but I do not go after them. I'd rather be cheated from time to time, that's how it is...
      
thekid
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Re:I'm sorry Wed, 17 November 2010 14:26
AT_Angel6 wrote on Wed, 17 November 2010 08:23

And I'm not at all willing to talk to Wernerus about this. As I've written in the past, I pity cheaters, but I do not go after them. I'd rather be cheated from time to time, that's how it is...


Or in your case you'd rather have the cheat on your side. UNBELIEVABLE.
      
foudecoasters - Cerdon
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Re:I'm sorry Wed, 17 November 2010 14:38
sorry for you dea, and for your other teammate .

shame on the cheaters !
      
dea1
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Re:I'm sorry Wed, 17 November 2010 14:39
While it may be interesting for some if Angel got different answers I still feel obliged to answer as captain (I don't think this burden should be on a team member, whatever their relationship):

Have you talked to him since? Yes, of course
Why did he did he do it? He said, he didn't
Is he sorry? Obsolete due to question above
Did he do it on your previous years teams? No idea, and never any indication. But of course possible.
The good news is: In the year we won (2007) he didn't play any match in the KO phase, so I can still consider this win as "clean".
Is he going to return the free game he got from your team winning the NC? He probably wouldn't mind - but I guess, that's logistical nonsense.
You ever watch any of his games? Yes, almost all of his NC games when he played in my team
Never got any inclination? No, not even in the games this year when I was asked by UEG to watch them together. Yes, there were moves that could have been influenced by illegitimate knowledge, but on the other hand there were so many bad moves, that I couldn't imagine a player who knows everything would ever make. He lost many of his games - too many in my view, if you have extra knowledge.
      
thekid
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Re:I'm sorry Wed, 17 November 2010 14:45
Thank you dea. Angel apparently won't answer as he would rather rip into me than his "friend".
      
AT_Angel6
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Re:I'm sorry Wed, 17 November 2010 14:59
thekid schrieb am Wed, 17 November 2010 14:26

Or in your case you'd rather have the cheat on your side. UNBELIEVABLE.

UBELIEVABLE only the kiddy's ignorance is Wink

In fact, I'm almost the only player who can PROVE he doesn't cheat, because I was the one watched in 95% of all my matches.
In contrast, kiddy drops his ranking intentionally, to be able to cheat if he wants to. During his drop, his opponents get overranked because of kiddy, and during his subsequent climb through the rankings all his later opponents get underranked.
This way, kiddy corrupts our rankings every year on purpose, but Angel is bad because he played Katzenfrau innocently (innocently, because after knowing about the community and the importance of the rankings, I stopped playing any other accounts immediately and for good).
      
AT_Angel6
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Re:I'm sorry Wed, 17 November 2010 15:05
thekid schrieb am Wed, 17 November 2010 14:45

Thank you dea. Angel apparently won't answer as he would rather rip into me than his "friend".

Right, thank you dea for you righteous behavior!

But kiddy, what do I not answer? I answer anything because I'm not ashamed of anything I did or anything I believe.
And I really don't want to rip you, even though 1010 annoying post are quite an accomplishment Confused

[Updated on: Wed, 17 November 2010 15:06]

      
thekid
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Re:I'm sorry Wed, 17 November 2010 15:10
AT_Angel6 wrote on Wed, 17 November 2010 08:59

thekid schrieb am Wed, 17 November 2010 14:26

Or in your case you'd rather have the cheat on your side. UNBELIEVABLE.

UBELIEVABLE only the kiddy's ignorance is Wink

In fact, I'm almost the only player who can PROVE he doesn't cheat, because I was the one watched in 95% of all my matches.
In contrast, kiddy drops his ranking intentionally, to be able to cheat if he wants to. During his drop, his opponents get overranked because of kiddy, and during his subsequent climb through the rankings all his later opponents get underranked.
This way, kiddy corrupts our rankings every year on purpose, but Angel is bad because he played Katzenfrau innocently (innocently, because after knowing about the community and the importance of the rankings, I stopped playing any other accounts immediately and for good).


You are a joke. You have a CONFIRMED CHEAT ON YOUR TEAM. One you shared on account with and are SOOOOOOO CLOSE to. Have you ever been cheated in a tournament? No then shut up. I have. I don't want to be cheated again, it's that simple as I KNOW I'm not cheating. Never needed to have a second account. Especially one that helped PUMP UP rankings of YOUR FRIEND. Who you still seem to be defending here. So what will you talk about now??? Weather? Sports? Not hey buddy why U A CHEAT? CMON.

And look at your rating you're pretty low there 1636, better get it up, wouldn't want any suspicion to be cast your way.

[Updated on: Wed, 17 November 2010 15:10]

      
AT_Angel6
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Re:I'm sorry Wed, 17 November 2010 15:19
thekid schrieb am Wed, 17 November 2010 15:10

You have a CONFIRMED CHEAT ON YOUR TEAM.

Thanks for the capital letters, showing what this threat should be about.

Actually, dea confirmed beyond doubt that Wernerus cheated. I don't know anything about it and thus I didn't write anything about it until your post.
And truth is that I do not ask Wernerus about it, because I'm not really interested. If he didn't cheat, he will probably tell me. And if he cheated, I know enough and what details do I need to know? I can live with having a friend that cheated in a board game, even though I don't understand it. There are many much more important values in life.

But you stated like "Wernerus played his daughter in 2005 and so thekid always knew he is a cheater". That's what I still criticize, because our innocent behaviour in 2005 was much better than kiddy's purposeful behaviour this year!

And alas, I wasn't able to raise my rating. I really tried at 1666, but instead of raising up I dropped further. But I'll try again to be watched in the QF that we hopefully will reach Sad

[Updated on: Wed, 17 November 2010 15:52]

      
thekid
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December 2004
Re:I'm sorry Wed, 17 November 2010 15:23
AT_Angel6 wrote on Wed, 17 November 2010 09:19

But you stated like "Wernerus played his daughter in 2005 and so thekid always knew he is a cheater". That's what I still criticize, because our innocent behaviour in 2005 was much better than kiddy's purposeful behaviour this year!




So I'm the bad guy because I was right. HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!

Once a cheat always a cheat.

I bet he's always your partner when you play bridge. Wink Wink Nod Nod. HAAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!!
      
AT_Angel6
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T2R Nation Cup 2007 Winner

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November 2004
Re:I'm sorry Wed, 17 November 2010 15:45
thekid schrieb am Wed, 17 November 2010 15:23

So I'm the bad guy because I was right. HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!

you are the bad guy, because expecting the worst of everybody and cheer if one expectation comes true, is a shame.
In Austria a minority (fortunately) says "asylum seekers are criminals". And every time an asylum seekers commits a crime, they feel confirmed. But this is the climax of ignorance imho.

thekid schrieb am Wed, 17 November 2010 15:23

Once a cheat always a cheat.

But he wasn't a cheat then, so I'm very surprised he should be now. And you really think people could never change? So why any prisons and releases from them? If we know that criminals do their crimes forever, then better hang them, right? I like The Shawshank Redemption, where Morgan Freeman kills someone as teenager, and at the age of 80 he has only pity left for himself back then. People don't change? Wrong, they change all the time Wink

thekid schrieb am Wed, 17 November 2010 15:23

I bet he's always your partner when you play bridge. Wink Wink Nod Nod. HAAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!!

You are very filthy kiddy, in fact it's not at all worth talking to you. You probably expect the worst of everybody, because of your own attitudes.
This accusation is not HAAHAHAHAHA-funny but a serious affront. In your case I take it as statement of displeasure because of the social milieu you come from.
In fact, cheating is quite a serious topic in bridge, the penalties are much tougher than in T2R. Wernerus and I were never accused of cheating over 15 years, playing with dozens of different partners.

[Updated on: Wed, 17 November 2010 15:54]

      
JenAck
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February 2008
Re:I'm sorry Wed, 17 November 2010 15:46
i just wondering why here are always peoples they seems to search the conflicts Sad

@ kid
do you think this is the right time and place? Rolling Eyes

i am pretty sure
..as long as the people and competition/tournaments are,
there are cheaters

The only way to exclude the Cheating
is no more play NC

I hope I'm not the only they like play so much NC..
..I take that to be deceived into buying

and i think Shamo has decided very well
      
thekid
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T2R European Map Championship 2010 Winner

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December 2004
Re:I'm sorry Wed, 17 November 2010 15:54
JenAck wrote on Wed, 17 November 2010 09:46

do you think this is the right time and place? Rolling Eyes

i am pretty sure
..as long as the people and competition/tournaments are,
there are cheaters

The only way to exclude the Cheating
is no more play NC




Yes it is the perfect time because soon everyone will forget.

No it's not the only way, if the tickets and cards were unobservable for everybody then the only thing someone could do is play all 5 accounts which is a much less likely possibility. And the tournament would go on probably even better than before as the specter of cheating would be all but removed. How many more cheats will it take for a lot of this community to WAKE UP?

I give dea a lot of credit. She actually came out and answered all of the questions I had. I imagine it was difficult, because I know how I would feel if I were in that position. And it sure wouldn't be the way Angel is acting.
      
thekid
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T2R European Map Championship 2010 Winner

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Re:I'm sorry Wed, 17 November 2010 15:55
AT_Angel6 wrote on Wed, 17 November 2010 09:45

In fact, cheating is quite a serious topic in bridge, the penalties are much tougher than in T2R.



Yeah I know here you can cheat and your friends can help you and then when caught still support them.
      
AT_Angel6
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T2R Nation Cup 2007 Winner

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November 2004
Re:I'm sorry Wed, 17 November 2010 16:00
thekid schrieb am Wed, 17 November 2010 15:54

...if the tickets and cards were unobservable for everybody...

thekid is right here, even though I'd still prefer to watch everything and to be watched with all details.

But why not make a poll of all NC captains every year just before the start of NC? If the majority wants it closed...
      
AT_Angel6
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T2R Nation Cup 2007 Winner

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November 2004
Re:I'm sorry Wed, 17 November 2010 16:06
thekid schrieb am Wed, 17 November 2010 15:55

Yeah I know here you can cheat and your friends can help you and then when caught still support them.

Who is "you"? Wernerus?
I don't support any cheating at all!
I think shamogi decided quite "Austian-friendly", because cheaters and their teams should be punished beyond losing the cheated wins.
I would not vote against a "1 year tourney ban" for convicted cheaters.
At the moment I don't support Wernerus as to the 2010 NC cheating accusations at all. But I support him and me as to the "Katzenfrau 2005 topic", because there you were wrong (or at least overeager) and this was very personal for me back then.

[Updated on: Wed, 17 November 2010 16:09]

      
senorblanco
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T2R Nation Cup 2009 Winner

Posts: 609
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October 2004
Re:I'm sorry Wed, 17 November 2010 16:47
And now the ones that are co-responsible for this thread... before kiddy Cool and Angel are gonna be released out of their cages... Shocked

Dea, Shamo and I were working together for the solution and we think it was the right way. So lets all calm down and continue the NC...

Yes - the shock still hurts many of you but (not only) as captain of UEG i still warn all cheaters for the future, who created an account to join this lobby and have a good time with wonderful games... Once you cheat you lose all the respect and for sure many of your "www-friends"...

We have some more suspicious players and accounts on our list and will continue to keep an eye on it - every day and in every game, regular and NC, UEG or not - that doesnt matter! Wernerus was caught in a game versus RED TGV.

One player we already IP adress-checked via DOW, which was negative but that doesnt mean he/she wasnt hangin on the phone/skype Smug

As dea said, my assuption became true and believe me - Im not proud of it - besides i didnt expect Wernerus to be a cheater but that only improves what!? Yes - cheaters are all around... no discussion needed, accept it...

Dea, please keep your head up, hope you have more sleep in the following nights... Rolling Eyes

      
Marschall Vorwärts
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T2R World League 7th Champion

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April 2008
Re:I'm sorry Wed, 17 November 2010 20:39
AT_Angel6 schrieb am Wed, 17 November 2010 16:06

because cheaters and their teams should be punished beyond losing the cheated wins.


Well, can't conceal: I think you are totally right. Confused
      
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