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PlanBee
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Winter Wars - Where are the TIgers! Tue, 30 November 2010 20:42
Received the Winter Wars expansion, all good stuff. Realy like the Breakthrough cards, think this is my favourite format of the game as it allows a little more depth and strategy. The Cards speed the verison up a little whic is great.

My only dissapointment is that none of the scenarios featured Tigers. Battle of the Bulge was famous for the (King) Tiger and I thought it would be a great to have a few new scenarios with them in.

I know you can user fit them, but they wont be there when the WW scenarios are in the online game!
      
OldBloodandGuts
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Re:Winter Wars - Where are the TIgers! Wed, 01 December 2010 19:51
I haven't ordered Winter Wars yet, but don't be too surprised by the absence of Tigers. There were only about 150 of them in the entire battle.

A lot of the Bulge being "famous" for its Tigers is because at the onset of the battle, either to save face or because they were in too big a hurry to take a closer look, retreating Americans tended to report every German tank they saw as a Tiger -- I think it was called "Tiger Terror."

I was just re-reading Charles B. McDonald's account of the Bulge, *A Time for Trumpets*, and came across this passage:
"The workhorses of the battlefield for the panzer and SS panzer divisions were the medium tanks: the 27-ton Mark IV, a mainstay for the entire war...and the 47-ton Mark V Panther...Although reports from American soldiers would indicate the Tiger was omnipresent, only about 150 of them were to fight in the Ardennes, employed in separate battalions usually attached to a panzer or SS panzer division" (82).
      
RonB
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Re:Winter Wars - Where are the TIgers! Wed, 01 December 2010 22:27
Does he specify if they were Mk I's or King Tigers? That cuts down the numbers even more. As to game play, King Tigers could not cross any of the streams in the game and most of the bridges.

[Updated on: Wed, 01 December 2010 22:27]

      
PlanBee
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Re:Winter Wars - Where are the TIgers! Wed, 01 December 2010 22:32
I am aware of the fear of Tigers exceeding the reality, but there were plenty there:


Cole, Hugh M. (1964), The Ardennes:Battle of the Bulge, Office of the Chief of Military History Department of the Army, LCCN 65-60001 p. 652 states that this number consisted of approximately 250 Tiger I, 775 Panther, 775 Panzer IV and a very few Tiger II; Zaloga 2008, pp. 71–73 states 416 Panther tanks.

Given there were only ever 1354 Tiger 1's produced throughout the war, that menas nearly 20% of all Tigers that were ever made were there, so if there was an expansion that featured them heavily then this would be it. I doubt such a high percentage featured in any other battle.

Otherwise when are we going to get to use our beautiful Tigers from Tiger in the Snow?

[Updated on: Wed, 01 December 2010 22:54]

      
50th
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Re:Winter Wars - Where are the TIgers! Thu, 02 December 2010 01:10
Cool information, thanks guybee! This will be an aid to future scenarios in the bulge that I do.

      
rasmussen81
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Re:Winter Wars - Where are the TIgers! Thu, 02 December 2010 02:53
guybee wrote on Tue, 30 November 2010 23:42

My only dissapointment is that none of the scenarios featured Tigers. Battle of the Bulge was famous for the (King) Tiger and I thought it would be a great to have a few new scenarios with them in.

I know you can user fit them, but they wont be there when the WW scenarios are in the online game!


I can only imagine the uproar there would have been if Richard had designed several of the Battle of the Bulge scenarios with Tiger Tanks! We would hear claims of more "money grabbing" and "sinister intentions" because a lot of players don't own the Tigers expansion and don't want to buy Overlord maps.

Eventually I suspect we might see a product that uses more of the Tigers but it might be limited to some scenarios that are released digitally (straight into the Official Scenarios section) so that people don't feel like they are forced to get one expansion to enjoy another.
      
Randwulf
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Re:Winter Wars - Where are the TIgers! Thu, 02 December 2010 06:20
You can always try and swap a few units for tigers and playtest it??? then let us know how it went.
      
ad79
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Re:Winter Wars - Where are the TIgers! Thu, 02 December 2010 09:19
rasmussen81 wrote on Thu, 02 December 2010 02:53

guybee wrote on Tue, 30 November 2010 23:42

My only dissapointment is that none of the scenarios featured Tigers. Battle of the Bulge was famous for the (King) Tiger and I thought it would be a great to have a few new scenarios with them in.

I know you can user fit them, but they wont be there when the WW scenarios are in the online game!


I can only imagine the uproar there would have been if Richard had designed several of the Battle of the Bulge scenarios with Tiger Tanks! We would hear claims of more "money grabbing" and "sinister intentions" because a lot of players don't own the Tigers expansion and don't want to buy Overlord maps.

Eventually I suspect we might see a product that uses more of the Tigers but it might be limited to some scenarios that are released digitally (straight into the Official Scenarios section) so that people don't feel like they are forced to get one expansion to enjoy another.



Some of the scenarios in Winter Wars include Half-Tracks that were released in the Disaster At Dieppe battlemap, and for those that doesn't have the miniatures DOW included Half-Track badges.
This is the first time anything from the battlemaps have appeared in any printed expansion that only needs a few Memoir'44 products. The badges was a great solution in my eyes.

The Breakthrough Kit had supply trucks and Tigers, but stated clearly that a LOT of expansions were needed to fully enjoy all the scenarios.

I have substituded the Tigers for Elite Panzers in a lot of scenarios, and unless there are too many of them in the scenario, it works great.

I used them in The Normandy Campaign fom the Campaign Book and they really went down fast during that campaign. All Tigers I brought on were elliminated on the first, second or third attack without elliminating a single Allied unit between them. But often they strike fear into the opponent and rule the battlefield.

Stig Morten
      
tank commander
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Re:Winter Wars - Where are the TIgers! Thu, 02 December 2010 11:36
for those who do not own Tigers from the expansion, one could make up Tiger Badges and just use those and regular tank from the base game to designate Tigers.
      
stevens
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Re:Winter Wars - Where are the TIgers! Thu, 02 December 2010 12:12
Quote:

For those who do not own Tigers from the expansion, one could make up Tiger Badges and just use those and regular tank from the base game to designate Tigers.

That is an excellent idea!
      
rasmussen81
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Re:Winter Wars - Where are the TIgers! Thu, 02 December 2010 12:32
ad79 wrote on Thu, 02 December 2010 12:19

Some of the scenarios in Winter Wars include Half-Tracks that were released in the Disaster At Dieppe battlemap, and for those that doesn't have the miniatures DOW included Half-Track badges.

This is the first time anything from the battlemaps have appeared in any printed expansion that only needs a few Memoir'44 products. The badges was a great solution in my eyes.


Great point...I think that DoW hit on a great one with the badge idea and didn't realize that Winter Wars includes Half-Tracks. I think this is a great solution and will be used in the future as well.
      
OldBloodandGuts
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Re:Winter Wars - Where are the TIgers! Thu, 02 December 2010 17:25
I guess it's a fun game mechanic, even if there weren't a lot of Tigers there. I read an estimate on a British website that there were as few as 150 in the battle.

Did anyone ever play the old "Close Combat" computer games? I think it was CC4 that was the Battle of the Bulge, and I remember being so mad that it didn't have Tigers; it was only Panthers and Panzer IVs. The more I read, though, the less surprised and mad I was. Regardless of the % of Tigers manufactured in the war, it seems to me that Tigers were barely significant as a % of German AFVs in combat. Even if we accept Cole's numbers, which are the highest I've seen, 250 is still only about 14% of the German armor involved, which means 43% were Panthers and 43% Mark IVs.

Still, it might be a fun game mechanic in Bulge scenarios Smile

      
OldBloodandGuts
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Re:Winter Wars - Where are the TIgers! Thu, 02 December 2010 17:29
And not to change the subject, but as long as we're talking about sources, has anyone read *The Bitter Woods,* the account of the Bulge that's written by Ike's son? I'm curious if that's worth picking up...I've read a lot on the Bulge, and I only want to embark on another 500 pages if it's worth it. Very Happy
      
PlanBee
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Re:Winter Wars - Where are the TIgers! Fri, 03 December 2010 13:16
Even 150 represents more than 10% of the Tigers I ever made. If you dont use them in the Bulge scenarios then I am not sure where you would use them.

At the beginning of the battle of Kursk, in July 1943, there were only 123 operational Tigers avaialble on the Entire Eastern Front (Osprey Publishing 'Tiger 1')

The Tigers in the Snow Overlord Scenario is set in Oct 1944, at the beginning of that month there were no more than 50 on the entire Eastern Front (all off to prepare for the Battle of the Bulge I assume Razz

It all leads me to think that the Scenarios could do with an overhaul, to take account of the new units and rules that have appeared in the expansions.

For example, the 88mm gun was very prevalent in the desert, the scenarios should be rewritten to include that. Most infantry units had access to mortars, machine guns and 'bazookas' later in the war etc etc. We now have cold weather and urban combat cards, low visibility rules.

I do understand that this would not be a high priority for DoW, but how about some of us volunteering to revise the scenarios for them, and these versions then become the official ones (and more importantly coded into the online version eventually).

We could then use the example of Laserschwert and get it printed up properly (if we have DoW's aproval of course)

      
Achtung Panzer
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Re:Winter Wars - Where are the TIgers! Fri, 03 December 2010 16:55
guybee wrote on Fri, 03 December 2010 12:16

At the beginning of the battle of Kursk, in July 1943, there were only 123 operational Tigers avaialble on the Entire Eastern Front (Osprey Publishing 'Tiger 1')


If I'm reading the table for German armour right (Osprey Campaign #16 - Kursk, p22), 106 Tigers are listed for the Battle of Kursk. Of these 48 are listed under 503rd Pz Bn, Army Group Kempf.
      
PlanBee
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Re:Winter Wars - Where are the TIgers! Fri, 03 December 2010 17:15
Ha ha - I dont have that book (yet Razz )

So there were more Tigers in the Ardennes than in Kursk.....
      
OldBloodandGuts
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Re:Winter Wars - Where are the TIgers! Sun, 05 December 2010 01:42
guybee wrote on Fri, 03 December 2010 07:16

Even 150 represents more than 10% of the Tigers I ever made. If you dont use them in the Bulge scenarios then I am not sure where you would use them.




Yeah, it just gets tricky -- you have a relatively high % of Tigers manufactured at the bulge, but a relatively low % of Tigers as overall armored vehicles there...throw in the abstract scale (is an Armor "unit" a company? An armored division? something in-between?), and it's a bit of a conundrum.

There's no doubt that a lot of the scenarios should be re-written to accommodate the new units, and you've got my vote for putting more Tigers in N. Africa scenarios.
      
Mighty Jim 83
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Re:Winter Wars - Where are the TIgers! Mon, 06 December 2010 15:41
guybee wrote on Fri, 03 December 2010 12:16


It all leads me to think that the Scenarios could do with an overhaul, to take account of the new units and rules that have appeared in the expansions.

For example, the 88mm gun was very prevalent in the desert, the scenarios should be rewritten to include that. Most infantry units had access to mortars, machine guns and 'bazookas' later in the war etc etc. We now have cold weather and urban combat cards, low visibility rules.

I do understand that this would not be a high priority for DoW, but how about some of us volunteering to revise the scenarios for them, and these versions then become the official ones (and more importantly coded into the online version eventually).

We could then use the example of Laserschwert and get it printed up properly (if we have DoW's aproval of course)




It certainly sounds like a fun idea. But I wonder about the logistics.

Cross-referencing a scenario with a popular military history book and seeing whether there were Tigers/88s/Mortars etc. is probably not that difficult. But there's more to a Memoir scenario than that. Otherwise, anyone could overlay a hex grid onto a map of deployment positions and they'd have a scenario.

Would these scenarios get play-tested after the ammendments? by whom? how many times? Would we be looking to preserve the balance of the original scenario, recreate the historical outcome?

I hope this doesn't come across as too critical - I think it's a great idea for SFTF, but to make them the official scenarii seems a much more complex proposition.
      
PlanBee
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Re:Winter Wars - Where are the TIgers! Mon, 06 December 2010 21:59
Yes you are right with the issues you raise, which is why I think we should split the task up between us.

Someone set some ground rules (ie german elite tank units after 1942 become Tiger tanks. Battles in winter use the combat decks). Then we take a couple of scenarios and playtest them locally and report back.

I wouldnt be too worried about scenario balance, some of the scnenarios are very unbalanced as they stand. I would be worried about say an infantry unit with a mortar behgind a hill that is virtually untouchable.

None of this really works though unless DoW have an appetite for it. Think of all those extra ingots they can earn by all the extra SWA's we are deploying Laughing
      
    
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